Sources of Split Nuts For Handsaws

[Morbius]

Good evening all!

I've been trying to source some brass split nuts to refurbish/restore some handsaws (yet another addition to my ever-growing list of projects). A number of places I've looked that had previously been recommended no longer seem to sell them.

I found Bad Axe (http://www.badaxetoolworks.com/bad-axe-fasteners.html) still sells some nice ones.

I understand that Wenzloff & Sons (http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/) no longer do this (they haven't been in stock for a couple of years apparently).

Blackburn Tools (http://www.blackburntools.com/) do not yet produce them.

I saw some steel ones on eBay the other day, but they aren't brass (obviously ;)).

Any other suggestions?

Thanks,

Craig

[Pac man]

If you are in Sydney on Feb 24th you may find some at the http://www.woodworkforums.com/f12/traditional-tools-group-2013-tool-sale-166121/

[auscab]

I saw these on ebay , not sure what they are made of .

45 minutes to go . from now.

Disston marples tyzack morill atkins split screws "NEW" | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Disston-marples-tyzack-morill-atkins-split-screws-NEW-/370750646762?pt=AU_ToolsHardwareLocks&hash=item565275e9ea)

[Morbius]

I saw these on ebay , not sure what they are made of .

45 minutes to go . from now.

Disston marples tyzack morill atkins split screws "NEW" | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Disston-marples-tyzack-morill-atkins-split-screws-NEW-/370750646762?pt=AU_ToolsHardwareLocks&hash=item565275e9ea)

Thanks guys!

I never considered the tool show! I am planning on going, but due to a couple of recent injuries may not be able.

I did look at those nuts on eBay, and was tempted, but figured that I'd try for some brass ones "somewhere", and I am willing to wait and search around. Heck, back in 2009 I saw that the forums here did a special order like the chisels that are happening now. I'd love to buy something locally made instead of imported, but will see how I go.

Craig

[Vann]

If you don't manage to acquire any at the sales, I see Thomas Flinn & Co, the UK sawmakers, sell them at £1.50 each for brass, or 60p for brass plated.

Oops, these aren't the split type - but this info might still be useful, so I won't delete the post.

Cheers, Vann.

[Berlin]

You could perhaps try to make some if you're keen. There's a how-to called 'poor boy split nuts' (who sounds like a character out of a 19th century morality tale) here.

http://www.norsewoodsmith.com/content/poor-boy-split-nuts

Matt

[_fly_]

Most good paper places have them for binding menu's together and stuff.
You can get different sizes, lengths not so much head diameter.
this mob had them in various sizes in alloy and brass (maybe coated).
Wedding Invitations Melbourne and DIY Wedding Stationery and Specialty Paper, Card & Envelope products by The Paper Place, Melbourne, Australia. (http://www.paperplace.com.au/)

[pampelmuse]

this mob had them in various sizes in alloy and brass (maybe coated).
Wedding Invitations Melbourne and DIY Wedding Stationery and Specialty Paper, Card & Envelope products by The Paper Place, Melbourne, Australia. (http://www.paperplace.com.au/)

I can't seem to find them on that website. Not obvious under a category anyhow.

This shortage of split nuts seems to be a perennial problem for anyone wanting to rescue handsaws. I have given up to some extent due to this problem as I don't have the gear to make the nuts out of brass and its easier/cheaper to acquire another saw than to source the split nuts. Most frustrating.

[_fly_]

I can't seem to find them on that website. Not obvious under a category anyhow.

This shortage of split nuts seems to be a perennial problem for anyone wanting to rescue handsaws. I have given up to some extent due to this problem as I don't have the gear to make the nuts out of brass and its easier/cheaper to acquire another saw than to source the split nuts. Most frustrating.

Go into shop online and then search for "Chicago Screws". Thats what they are called.
The heads have a slot in each end and are round shafted so no square locating section.

You may be able to aource in the US or elsewhere on the web now you know they are called Chicago Screws.

[Morbius]

If you don't manage to acquire any at the sales, I see Thomas Flinn & Co, the UK sawmakers, sell them at £1.50 each for brass, or 60p for brass plated.

Oops, these aren't the split type - but this info might still be useful, so I won't delete the post.

Cheers, Vann.

Those are some nice nuts though!

254163

I found the link to the page with their prices listed (http://www.flinn-garlick-saws.co.uk/acatalog/Saws_After_care_and_sharpening.html).

Thanks!

Craig

[Morbius]

Go into shop online and then search for "Chicago Screws". Thats what they are called.
The heads have a slot in each end and are round shafted so no square locating section.

You may be able to aource in the US or elsewhere on the web now you know they are called Chicago Screws.

Thanks for the tip.

I found some great ones (http://www.rivetsonline.com/binder-posts/brass-binder-posts-screws.html?sef_rewrite=1), which some people might find useful:

254164

So handy to know the alternate names!

Thanks,

Craig

[Morbius]

You could perhaps try to make some if you're keen. There's a how-to called 'poor boy split nuts' (who sounds like a character out of a 19th century morality tale) here.

Poor Boy Split Nuts | Norse Woodsmith (http://www.norsewoodsmith.com/content/poor-boy-split-nuts)

Matt

Berlin,

I don't have the tools for this process, but they do look pretty darned good!

254165

Thanks,

Craig

[Berlin]

Yeah, I don't have all the kit he uses either, Craig. One of these days I'd like to get a little metal lathe though so I could knock up bits like saw nuts when I needed them.

Good luck with the search :)

Matt

[derekcohen]

You can get them at Tools For Working Wood (google).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Morbius]

Thanks Derek! I found the split nuts tucked away in any of their saw kit listings found here (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/dept/TS).
Their stuff looks great. Like Blackburn Tools, they are going for nuts that don't require a square mortise, which simplifies installing new handles.

Craig

[orraloon]

You dont need a metal lathe but it would be better. I made some on the wood lathe. You go on the slowest setting and use a file. I filed the thread off some 3/4 bolt to make the heads and used brass allthread for the shaft. The shaft is soldered into the head. It was a bit rough but it works. When you sand the saw handle the brass comes up great.
Regards
John

[IanW]

I thought I had posted on making saw bolts & nuts, but can't find anything, so here is how I usd to make them with my wood lathe.

1. Chuck a short length of bras rod in a jacobs chuck & drill for tapping:

254396

Tap for whatever brass bolt size you are using, and slot one end:

254399

Cut off nut - you can clean up the rough edge by screwing the nut onto a bit of thread & facing it off with a file ot turning tool:

254398

Turn off a short collar, either with a file or a tool like this (use the slowest speed you can!):

254401

Square up the collar using a file with a safe edge, & silver-solder in a length of bolt:

254400

Clean it up and fit to your saw - :

254397

The only problem with these was that the thread tends to catch on the edge of the hole in the saw plate, which can be annoying, but not fatal. They look perfectly good on the outside... :;

Cheers,

[Morbius]

Ian,

That is spectacular! Those nuts turned (no pun intended) out so well!
And it is something else I can do once I finish assembling my lathe :)

Thanks!

Craig

[pmcgee]

The only problem with these was that the thread tends to catch on the edge of the hole in the saw plate, which can be annoying, but not fatal. They look perfectly good on the outside... :;

Cheers,

SQA ... Stupid Question Alert ...

Ian ... why would these threads catch any more than original bolts? They look great to me.

I'm sure we've seen it previously, but could you add a pic of the reverse side too ... pretty please?

Thanks,
Paul

[IanW]

SQA ... Stupid Question Alert ...

Ian ... why would these threads catch any more than original bolts? They look great to me.

More my inadequate explanation, perhaps, Paul. Of course any threads can catch on the edges of the thin plate, but by having a clear section in the centre of the bolt, you eliminate this problem when the bolt has passed the threaded section. This helps when you are juggling things a bit to get the nut started. I like to keep everything pretty snug, & if a thread is catching at a critical point, it can be awkward. As I said, it's a minor irritation, not a game-stopper, but one I can easily avoid, now. You can get the same effect with fabricated bolts by using brass rod & threading each end, but it's hard to get the smaller sizes of round bar, round here...

My current saw bolts, turned from solid bar, look like this:

254441 A bit fancier & everything consistent, thanks to the metal lathe and screw-fed cutting tools!


SQA I'm sure we've seen it previously, but could you add a pic of the reverse side too ... pretty please? l

Don't think you would have, actually - I seldom take pics of the 'reverse' side of saws, for some reason. Fortunately, I stll have the saw in the picture above - one of my early attempts that turned out well, so I keep it out of sentimentality. Here is the nut side:

254442

It's not too clear in the pic, but the nuts are slightly domed, which is how I started making them. I have since switched to making them square, and fitting the bolts & nuts to the saw so that everything ends up flush, like this:

254443


Craig, excuse the pedantry, but you seem to be applying the term 'split nuts' to the combination of screw (or bolt) and the nut (along with quite a few others, I've noticed). It's the nut that is actually the 'split' part. In fact, if we were to be truly pedantic, we should call it a 'semi-split' nut - after all, a split nut would not be a lot of use, would it? ..... :; :U

Cheers,

[Berlin]

I see you're adding a little jazz to your ersatz medallion now, Ian. Now you just need to cast your family crest into them and and 'optimus' or, 'warranted bonza'.

;)

Put in a few hundred k's on my dovetailer today... Definitely bonza.

[IanW]

I see you're adding a little jazz to your ersatz medallion now, Ian.....

:U
Matt, I had intended to turn a ring on the face to form an inner disc, like a 'real' medallion, but decided that was too fussy altogether, so opted for that little fillet around the edge instead. My original idea of making one bolt head larger, a la medallion of commercial saws, was to have somewhere for the proud owner (which was only intended to be me, when I began!) to engrave initials & a date, to declare ownership. In fact, I don't routinely make medallion bolts anymore unless someone asks for one. When turning from solid bar, it wastes too much good brass! :U

Someone beat you to naming rights for my saws - they suggested "Wilkut", which I thought rather good. "Warranted bonza", under a kangaroo or a platypus with an arch of gum leaves would make a ripper blade etch, though. If I had your skills, I could make the appropriate screens......
:U :U

Cheers,

[Berlin]

Wilkut! Perfect. I'd love to help work out an etch. I can see it now, from the heel of the blade right to the tip, with a million curlicues, a few hundred well chosen words and maybe a sort of cesar-esqe profile portrait. I'll knock one up. ;)

But seriously, happy to do it anytime.

Cheers
Matt

[IanW]

....... I can see it now, from the heel of the blade right to the tip, with a million curlicues, a few hundred well chosen words and maybe a sort of cesar-esqe profile portrait........

Haud, gratias ago vos! Definitely not the Caesaresque profile - there may be a Brutus or two lurking out there!

Thanks for the kind offer, Matt, but I think I'll do without etches for the time being - I'll just concentrate my efforts on making handles that fit & teeth that cut. :U

I admit I have thought about etches from time to time, & it would make the saws look very professional, no doubt, but a bit too wanky & a bit too much trouble at this stage......
Cheers,

[Berlin]

'Handles that fit and teeth that cut.'

We have your tag line. (i know you don't want anything wanky but we might be able to upsell a bit here...)

Wilkut

We have your brand.

The saw's practically etching itself!

[pmcgee]

How about a stamp? ...

http://www.backsaw.net/forum/picture.php?albumid=36&pictureid=208

http://www.backsaw.net/forum/picture.php?albumid=36&pictureid=232

http://www.backsaw.net/forum/picture.php?albumid=36&pictureid=235

[Isaac S]

Good evening all!

I've been trying to source some brass split nuts to refurbish/restore some handsaws (yet another addition to my ever-growing list of projects). A number of places I've looked that had previously been recommended no longer seem to sell them...

Blackburn Tools (http://www.blackburntools.com/) do not yet produce them....

Thanks,

Craig

I'm a little late to this thread, but I am now making them to sell. It will be a few weeks before they show up on my website, but if you need them before then, you can send me a message through this forum.


Here are some of the details on the nuts and bolts:

Length of the bolt is 1.025" long, so they will fit all but the very thickest of handles. Longer bolts can be made by special request.

Diameter of the bolt heads and nuts are 7/16". I will make 1/2" and 9/16" ones in the next batch, and probably offer medallion sized bolts as well.

The bolt uses a toothed lock washer to prevent it from spinning.

The split nut is 5/16" long, giving enough thread engagement to virtually guarantee that it will never strip, no matter how hard it is tightened.

The extended portion of the nut is 1/4" diameter.

Both the bolt head and nut have tapered sides, making them easy to install (and remove without splintering the edge of the hole). This is great when you are test fitting them.

The slot in the nut is 0.032" wide.

Threads are 8-32.

The heads of the bolts are 1/8" thick. The "heads" on the nuts are slightly thicker to compensate for the thickness of the washer used under the bolt head. This allows you to drill the holes for the bolt and nut to the same depth, and have them both end up flush with the wood when they are installed.

Available in either brass (the left group in the picture) or bronze (the right group in the picture). I have a half dozen of the brass ones, but will have the material to make more at the end of this week. I have plenty of the bronze ones already made.

The bolts and nuts are straight from the lathe, so you will probably want to sand the surfaces. You can do this after they are installed in the handle or before. The bolt and nut in the left foreground of each group were sanded on 220 grit for about 5-10 seconds, which removed all of the lathe tool marks.

Price is $6.50 USD for a set (one bolt, one nut, and one washer). Shipping to Australia is $10 USD for up to a dozen sets (a set is one nut, one bolt, and one washer). Shipping for more than that number is $15 USD. If someone wants to coordinate a group buy, I can ship a bulk order to them to save on shipping costs.

255609


I'd be happy to answer any questions you may have.

Isaac
Blackburn Tools

[Morbius]

Isaac,

Thanks for posting that info. I'll take brass 6 sets, if you accept PayPal. Happy to wait in line, rather than hog all of the ones you have already.

Craig

[pmcgee]

I'm a little late to this thread, but I am now making them to sell. It will be a few weeks before they show up on my website, but if you need them before then, you can send me a message through this forum.
...
Isaac
Blackburn Tools

What is the post diameter please? (Is it up there? Am I not reading properly?)

I'm trying to relate them to this S&J for example ... but my brain is working about normal ... ie not. :)
It has 3.7mm post and 13.2mm and 14.2mm bolt heads.

The last one I think = 9/16" ... but the others don't seem to fit an imperial measurement.

Thanks,
Paul

Hmmm ... I measured the exposed post. The two above ... a bit mushroomed maybe ... I put at 4.2mm.

255637 255638

[IanW]

What is the post diameter please? (Is it up there? Am I not reading properly?)

You may be reading it properly, Paul, just not letting the message get through. :U

Da man says they are "8-32" which I take to mean 8 gauge, 32 tpi (our cousins over the water like these funny designations that are mysterious to the uninitiated). An 8 gauge machine screw is 0.164 inches, which in real units is 4.1656 milimetres.......

Very close to the ones you measured on your saw! :;

Cheers,

[Isaac S]

Craig, I will send you six sets from the next batch.

Paul, We still cling to our old systems of measurements over here. Paul got it right, they are about 4.2 mm in diameter. The heads on these ones are 11.2 mm. The 1/2" and 9/16" ones translate to 12.7 mm and 14.3 mm, respectively. If you need to match a specific diameter for the bolt and nut heads, I can do that. Matching a specific thread may or may not be possible.

Ian, Thanks for doing the math for me. Some days I think metric would be a welcome change...

[IanW]

.....Ian, Thanks for doing the math for me. Some days I think metric would be a welcome change...

No worries, Isaac. I was an adult when we switched to metric, so I grew up on Imperial & had to convert. Doing the conversions is simple enough with a calculator to hand :U, it's getting your mind to visualise in the new units that takes time. It took me years to think of a table as being 750mm high instead of 30 inches! Ask anyone my age what their height is, & they'll instantly spit it out in feet & inches. Ask them what that is in milimetres & all you'll get is a pained look as they try to do a mental calculation.

Without constant practice (not to mention advancing years) I have lost my head for those arcane fractions, too. I looked at the 'inch' value for 8 gauge, & thought it was close enough to 5/32", but of course it isn't close enough in metalwork terms (5/32 = .15625"). So is it 11/64"? Nope, that's 0.1718". It's as near as dammit to 21/128 (0.1640625).

Yep, a decimal system is so much easier on ageing neurons. I make saw bolts with either 4, 5, or 6 milimetre shafts, depending on the size saws they are intended for - to heck with fractions of inches! But here's a nice inconsistency - I turn the heads & nuts to imperial sizes (3/8, 7/16, or 1/2"). There are actually a couple of reasons for this. One is that my brass comes in imperial sizes, so it's easier to stay with it, but perhaps more pertinently, when you buy a set of "metric" Forstner bits from most suppliers down here, what you get is an imperial set re-badged to the nearest metric sizes, so it's more accurate to work in imperial if the bolt head is intended for a hole drilled by one of these bits. Someday, when the US gives up & joins the rest of the world, the Chinese will make cheap bit sets in genuine metric sizes... :U

Cheers,

[pmcgee]

... but perhaps more pertinently, when you buy a set of "metric" Forstner bits from most suppliers down here, what you get is an imperial set re-badged to the nearest metric sizes,

Sacre Bleu ... there goes the Republic.

If we were in the US, that brand of bits might be "I Can't Believe It's Not Metric" ?!?

Paul

[Isaac S]

We've had to put up with metric chisels labeled in imperial dimensions for years. Not as critical as your Forstner bits, but mildly irritating on occasion.

The more metal work I do, the less I use fractions. But the two biggest hurdles to converting are trying to think in metric and all the money invested in measuring equipment and tooling.

When I was in school for engineering, we did a fair amount of our work in metric, but I never saw a millimeter or Newton after graduation.

[Morbius]

I think my luck must be improving. I got home from work today and found the latest Australian Wood Magazine in my letterbox.

Even better, it has some info on making saws in it :)

Craig

[IanW]

I think my luck must be improving. I got home from work today and found the latest Australian Wood Magazine in my letterbox.

Even better, it has some info on making saws in it :)

Craig

Hmmm, the author of the article you refer to looks a bit dodgy, don't you think?
:U
Cheers,

[Morbius]

Ian,

Shhhh!!!! The Wood Working Mafia is full of shady characters!

BTW, that D8 half back at the top of page 57 is an incredible looking saw! After I finish restoring a few of the saws I picked up, I hope to make a saw, and something like that really appeals.

Craig

[IanW]

.......After I finish restoring a few of the saws I picked up, I hope to make a saw.........

Oh Dear! From fixing saws to making saws - down the slipperey-slope you go! :o

It is a lot of fun, though, and sharpening/making saws is the best way to get to grips with the subtilties of hand saws. In fact, making any kind of woodworking tools is bound to improve your skills & your understanding of them, imo.

Cheers,

[Morbius]

I picked up a book yesterday from the local library, "Toolmaking Projects For Joinery and Woodworking (http://www.amazon.com/Tool-Making-Projects-Joinery-Woodworking-Craftsmans/dp/1892836238)" and it has some very detailed plans for making a saw with a brass back, how to sharped said saw and plans for a simple saw vice.

Cover of the book. 257474

I also picked up some old split nuts from the UK, which will tide me over until Isaac S. is ready to ship orders :)

Craig

[Morbius]

Well,

Isaac's saw nuts arrived in the post and they are terrific. Compared to the antique nuts I picked up on eBay, these are much better. Not just because they are new, but they are nowhere near as flimsy as the antiques.

I will keep my fingers crossed that Isaac will make these in other sizes, as these are really, really nice. Having a medallion-sized saw nut that you can engrave would be a nice touch.

Now I just need to get my sorry carcass out to Monaro timber to get some decent wood to make a new handle or two :)

Craig

[Isaac S]

Well,

I will keep my fingers crossed that Isaac will make these in other sizes, as these are really, really nice. Having a medallion-sized saw nut that you can engrave would be a nice touch.

Craig

Glad you liked them, Craig. And since you asked, I have them in 7/16", 1/2", and 9/16", as well as a 3/4" medallion in two different styles.


259039 259038 259037

[Morbius]

Isaac,

I'll be placing another order in two weeks for some of these (http://www.blackburntools.com/new-tools/new-saws-and-related/saw-bolts/index.html) :)

I might grab one of you crew drivers whil I am at it too. Very hany :)

Craig

[Berlin]

...he makes hany crew drivers too! Is there nothing the man can't do? :U

[Isaac S]

...he makes hany crew drivers too! Is there nothing the man can't do? :U

I'm almost afraid to ask if this is one of those idioms that I'm better off not knowing about...

[Morbius]

...he makes hany crew drivers too! Is there nothing the man can't do? :U

Batteries were going flat in my keyboard! :)

Craig

[TobyC]

He's blaming it on the keyboard! :; :roll:

Toby

[Morbius]

On Monday,

I am heading over to Monaro Timber to select some wood for a handle or two. After my experience with WoodRiver planes with their Bubinga (spelling ?) handles, I was wondering how that wood would go for saw handles. Anyone here in a position of knowledge?

I also figured the wood might also look good with brass split nuts.

Any good alternatives that are really worth considering?

Thanks,

Craig


Well,

Isaac's saw nuts arrived in the post and they are terrific. Compared to the antique nuts I picked up on eBay, these are much better. Not just because they are new, but they are nowhere near as flimsy as the antiques.

I will keep my fingers crossed that Isaac will make these in other sizes, as these are really, really nice. Having a medallion-sized saw nut that you can engrave would be a nice touch.

Now I just need to get my sorry carcass out to Monaro timber to get some decent wood to make a new handle or two :)

Craig

[Isaac S]

On Monday,

I am heading over to Monaro Timber to select some wood for a handle or two. After my experience with WoodRiver planes with their Bubinga (spelling ?) handles, I was wondering how that wood would go for saw handles. Anyone here in a position of knowledge?

I also figured the wood might also look good with brass split nuts.

Any good alternatives that are really worth considering?

Thanks,

Craig


I haven't yet worked with it, but I did buy some to try out. Wenzloff uses a lot of it for their saws, and I have one of his dovetail saws with it. It looks great, and I would not hesitate to use it.

[rob streeper]

These are made for a 7/8 stock with 7/16 heads. The third photo shows my screw (left) next to a Lie Nielsen screw installed in my Lie Nielsen dovetail saw. I have brass only now, working on stainless to complement my folded backs.

299204299205299206

[IanW]

Very nice backs, Rob. I think you could safely ease off the closure a bit, though. I find a firm grip on the saw plate to be more desirable than a really tight grip - makes it easier to adjust in case of any buckling caused by slightly uneven pressure.

I'm also wondering why you don't use a square shoulder or some other in-built anti-twist method on your saw bolts? I know people are using star washers, but I don't think these are really appropriate to use with wood. My observation is that if you live somewhere where there are deep moisture cycles, over time, all handle bolts loosen significantly due to compression of the wood past its elastic point. If the shoulder-less bolts aren't constantly twitched up, and the threads gum up a bit, as they like to do, I fear someone down the track is going to be struggling to re-tighten them. Maybe I'm just an excessive worrier?? :U

Cheers,

[TobyC]

That's a HUGE slot, and you buggered the wood when you tightened it! But it's nice to have another source.

[TobyC]

If anyone is looking for cheap screws for later saws....



299207


Great Neck Hand Saw Replacement Screws (10 Pack) - Amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com/Great-Neck-Hand-Replacement-Screws/dp/B000G33PA8)

[rob streeper]

Very nice backs, Rob. I think you could safely ease off the closure a bit, though. I find a firm grip on the saw plate to be more desirable than a really tight grip - makes it easier to adjust in case of any buckling caused by slightly uneven pressure.

I'm also wondering why you don't use a square shoulder or some other in-built anti-twist method on your saw bolts? I know people are using star washers, but I don't think these are really appropriate to use with wood. My observation is that if you live somewhere where there are deep moisture cycles, over time, all handle bolts loosen significantly due to compression of the wood past its elastic point. If the shoulder-less bolts aren't constantly twitched up, and the threads gum up a bit, as they like to do, I fear someone down the track is going to be struggling to re-tighten them. Maybe I'm just an excessive worrier?? :U

Cheers,
Hi Ian,
I thought about putting a square shoulder on too. With these screws if the hole in the plate is 3/16" or so there is usually enough friction between the relatively large screw shank and the plate to hold the screw in place, the larger diameter shank also helps lock the plate in place so the screws don't need to exert as much clamping force. If the holes are too large however it can be hard to get them tightly set.
As to the saw backs I agree on the closure. I set these up pretty tight so that they hold a thin plate very firmly. It makes a bit more work in initial setting of the back but once the plate is properly tensioned I think that the tightness of the back helps hold the thin plate true, especially with the relatively deep and long plates I am going to use.
Thanks,
Rob

[lightwood]

On Monday,

I am heading over to Monaro Timber to select some wood for a handle or two. After my experience with WoodRiver planes with their Bubinga (spelling ?) handles, I was wondering how that wood would go for saw handles. Anyone here in a position of knowledge?

I also figured the wood might also look good with brass split nuts.

Any good alternatives that are really worth considering?

Thanks,

Craig
Craig,
haven't used Bubinga on a saw, but I did use it on a plane infill, tight curly grain...very strong.
Beautiful with brass & steel.:2tsup:
I would use it on a saw handle without hesitation.
I have some you could use. I was given it a few years ago....have you got any yet?
Regards,
Peter
http://www.petermcbride.com/planemaking/images/smoother.jpg

[Morbius]

Craig,
haven't used Bubinga on a saw, but I did use it on a plane infill, tight curly grain...very strong.
Beautiful with brass & steel.:2tsup:
I would use it on a saw handle without hesitation.
I have some you could use. I was given it a few years ago....have you got any yet?
Regards,
Peter
http://www.petermcbride.com/planemaking/images/smoother.jpg

I haven't picked up the wood yet! I finally finished off my saw vice to use for learning to sharpen, so now I have everything just about ready to go through the whole process of restoring saw. I have been leaning towards she-oak recently as I've seen so many great pictures of saws using that recently. Damn this range of choices!!! :)

Craig

[RayG]

I'm also wondering why you don't use a square shoulder or some other in-built anti-twist method on your saw bolts? I know people are using star washers, but I don't think these are really appropriate to use with wood. My observation is that if you live somewhere where there are deep moisture cycles, over time, all handle bolts loosen significantly due to compression of the wood past its elastic point. If the shoulder-less bolts aren't constantly twitched up, and the threads gum up a bit, as they like to do, I fear someone down the track is going to be struggling to re-tighten them. Maybe I'm just an excessive worrier?? :U

Cheers,

Hi Ian,

The Lie Nielsen screws don't have a square shank, and they work just fine. Most of the screws used on 19th century British saws, didn't have any locking mechanism and they have survived for up to 200 years. So I can be fairly confident in saying that you don't need the square shank. But then I have to add, I think it's an improvement that's well worth the little extra effort.

As a matter of interest, the brass founders who made a lot of the cast saw screws were companies like Priest and Co, who actually trademarked the Warranted Superior label screw.. :) Cheeky buggers...

http://www.backsaw.net/images/stories/warranteedsuperior.jpg
Warranted Superior
Priest & Co. Pea Croft brass works, 60 Solly street.

Ray

[IanW]

Hi Ian,

The Lie Nielsen screws don't have a square shank, and they work just fine. Most of the screws used on 19th century British saws, didn't have any locking mechanism and they have survived for up to 200 years. So I can be fairly confident in saying that you don't need the square shank. But then I have to add, I think it's an improvement that's well worth the little extra effort.

As a matter of interest, the brass founders who made a lot of the cast saw screws were companies like Priest and Co, who actually trademarked the Warranted Superior label screw.. :) Cheeky buggers...

http://www.backsaw.net/images/stories/warranteedsuperior.jpg
Warranted Superior
Priest & Co. Pea Croft brass works, 60 Solly street.

Ray

Hang on a bit, Ray, the shank on that funny medallion bolt looks distinctly like it's square, to me. Maybe it's just artist's licence?

I agree you can tighten a new screw without much effort, I'm thinking about down the track. As you say, you can live without 'em, but adding the square shoulder isn't a lot of effort, and it is a help. In fact, making a bolt takes me just a couple of minutes, the nuts take more time because there are more steps involved, the way I've been making them....

Cheers,

[rob streeper]

Another reason I opted for a thick shank vs. the squared section is that with these screws the thickness of the section of wood through which the locking square seats is quite thin. Given the modern predilection for more decorative woods that can be more susceptible to breakage with the grain I thought it wise to go with the thick shank. One of the woods available in abundance here is mesquite and there is decent demand for quality pieces. Some of the best pieces I have were originally consigned to use as firewood. Mesquite is quite hard but will crack with the grain, especially thin sections. I am doing experiments to stabilize it using vacuum infusion - I'll post information when I have enough to make a story.

[rob streeper]

All,

With the thankful departure of the holiday season I have some time to get back to you with my reasons for designing my saw screws as I have.

The first figure below illustrates an analysis of the forces on the saw screws that occur during sawing. The primary forces are parallel to the long axis of the plate/back assembly. However, due to the arc described by the fore and aft motion of the humerus, there is also a rocking component that induces forces perpendicular to the long axis of the back.

299294
Measurements of a specimen Lie Nielsen dovetail saw show the following dimensional features of the saw screws and the holes in the saw plate.

299295

If we examine the case where the screws may be loose due to the lack of square shoulders, which as has been observed above they do indeed lack, we have a minimum range of motion of approximately 0.0055" at each screw and the distance between the screws is 0.625" giving us a range of motion of the handle relative to the plate of approximately 0.011"/0.625" = 0.0176"/inch at each screw hole. The distance between the center of rotation, assumed to be midway between the screws and the co-linear point on the extreme back of the handle, corresponding to the approximate position of the top of my ring finger, is 4.35". Thus we have the potential, purely from screw looseness, for the tote to move up and down through approximately 0.0176" X 4.35" = 0.076" or about 5/64". This does not seem like a large problem but think of the implications: All of the clamping force holding the plate must be exerted by the cheeks of the handle onto the plate and or the mortise for the spine. Over time the excess stress caused by poor screw to screw hole fitting will likely cause the handle itself to wear. Thus if you have under-size screws you really do need to keep them tight to avoid this rocking motion - which argues for a square shank.

Now let us consider the case of the square shank more closely. Figure 3 below illustrates the relation of the parts and the grain of the wood.

299296

In Figure 4 is shown the situation that may occur when a square shank screw is tightened.

299297
Clearly, if the square shank is fitted less than perfectly there will be a tendency of the screw shanks to cause splits in the handle.

This problem would be compounded by a sloppy screw shank to saw plate fit as exists in the case of the LN saw necessitating high screw nut torque to keep the handle stably fixed to the saw plate/ back assembly.

The wood used introduces another source of trouble. In the old days the majority of saws were stocked with beech, maple, apple or perhaps pear, all of which tend to resist splitting. The modern tendency to use wood of higher aesthetic appeal but in some cases lower resistance to splitting thus further increases the chances of system failure. The wood is already thin and cutting a mortice will thin it further.

This is why I have elected to leave off the square shank on the dovetail size screws. The relatively thicker shanks of my screws fit the holes in the saw plate more closely and thus limit handle slop without the need for high tightening torque.

Just my opinion of course and I am trying to do this the best way possible. There are other options, such as tapering the hole with a matching tapered shank, but how to avoid the splitting forces? A drop of BLO under the screw head? Lock washers? Ferrules/bushings? Like everybody however I'm on a budget.

[Isaac S]

Just throwing my $0.02 in here, with a few random thoughts on saw bolts.

I use serrted tooth lock washers on my bolts and saws. When you use these, you need to be aware that they need to be installed in the correct orientation. Because they are stamped from a sheet, the teeth on one side are markedly sharper than on the other. The sharp side should be placed against the underside of the bolt head, as it will better bite into the metal.

When I install them in this manner, they can be tightened to a great degree. I have installed hundreds of them, and have never had one slip. I have, however, bent the tips of split nut drivers trying to overtorque them.

I don't know if it is as good as using a square shank in the long (very long) run, and will be long gone before the final verdict is in. But if I didn't believe that they work well, I would not use them.


Regarding snug fits between the blade and the bolts, that is something I try to avoid. It may help to keep things tight, but will stress the handle as it shrinks and expands in response to changes in its moisture content. It may or may not harm the wood, but I have stripped the threads on many an old saw bolt that was jammed tight against the edge of its hole in the blade when the handle shrank.

I owuld much rather rely on friction to hold everything in place. It doesn't take much torque on the nuts to provide enough of it, and it is a simple matter to tighten the nuts up when needed. In my experience, most saws will need to be tightened up less frequently as the wood settles in.


This is a lot like picking nits, of course. In the moment, it seems extremely important, but from a distance it is a bit less so. Judging from the vast numbers of saws that have survived more than a hundred years of untold indignities, I'd guess that any of the saws made today have a good chance of outlasting any of us.

[DSEL74]

Maybe this could be analysed to some degree in reverse. Looking at how many older saws are missing their bolts and damage to the holes what are the most likely causes and points of failure?
I do think machined bolts and the current quality of brass used would be superior for one thing to the soft cast bolt of eras gone by.

[rob streeper]

This illustrates what I am talking about above. I didn't do this using a square shank bolt of course, it was the result of a moments inattention at the drill press. It was a pretty nice stock until then but mesquite can be very brittle.

299304

[rob streeper]

Maybe this could be analysed to some degree in reverse. Looking at how many older saws are missing their bolts and damage to the holes what are the most likely causes and points of failure?
I do think machined bolts and the current quality of brass used would be superior for one thing to the soft cast bolt of eras gone by.

I agree, materials have advanced tremendously even in my lifetime, let alone since the 17th century. My perception is that tools like saws were simply tools. The makers and users were not necessarily trying to produce works of art such as the many fine pieces on this site.

As you can see below, I like pretty wood too so I am going to give this product a try. Anybody have experience with it?

299305

I am going to try vacuum imbibing this into a semi-finished mesquite handle. It will likely clog the surface fibers to the point that they resist finish but I have some ideas about overcoming that problem. I'll post the results when I have them.

[DSEL74]

I agree, materials have advanced tremendously even in my lifetime, let alone since the 17th century. My perception is that tools like saws were simply tools. The makers and users were not necessarily trying to produce works of art such as the many fine pieces on this site.

As you can see below, I like pretty wood too so I am going to give this product a try. Anybody have experience with it?

299305

I am going to try vacuum imbibing this into a semi-finished mesquite handle. It will likely clog the surface fibers to the point that they resist finish but I have some ideas about overcoming that problem. I'll post the results when I have them.


Blue Spruce acrylic resin infuse their chisels & mallets, and the pen turners stabilise and infuse their pens. So I don't see why it couldn't be applied here.

[rob streeper]

Blue Spruce acrylic resin infuse their chisels & mallets, and the pen turners stabilise and infuse their pens. So I don't see why it couldn't be applied here.

I will also try applying it just to the insides of the back mortise and the recesses for the screw heads.

[TobyC]

Regarding snug fits between the blade and the bolts, that is something I try to avoid. It may help to keep things tight, but will stress the handle as it shrinks and expands in response to changes in its moisture content. It may or may not harm the wood, but I have stripped the threads on many an old saw bolt that was jammed tight against the edge of its hole in the blade when the handle shrank.

I owuld much rather rely on friction to hold everything in place. It doesn't take much torque on the nuts to provide enough of it, and it is a simple matter to tighten the nuts up when needed. In my experience, most saws will need to be tightened up less frequently as the wood settles in.




I could not agree more! Never, and I mean NEVER trap a piece of wood so that it cannot move, or it will crack in between the bolts.

[planemaker]

I will also try applying it just to the insides of the back mortise and the recesses for the screw heads.

Rob. If mesquite has a tendency to be that brittle I wouldn't bother trying to make it work for saw handles. There are much more suitable woods in the U.S. to choose from. IMO

Stewie;

[rob streeper]

Rob. If mesquite has a tendency to be that brittle I wouldn't bother trying to make it work for saw handles. There are much more suitable woods in the U.S. to choose from. IMO

Stewie;

Stewie,

Sure, plenty of usable woods here. I have some fantastic figured mesquite infected with mistletoe. It looks like a burl and physiologically it's probably more like a tubercular granuloma or cyst. I'd hate to turn it into a sugar bowl.

My feeling is: Why not climb that mountain?

Rob

[rob streeper]

I could not agree more! Never, and I mean NEVER trap a piece of wood so that it cannot move, or it will crack in between the bolts.

Now I'm confused. On the one hand square shank bolts are advocated because they can be tightened more snugly. Yet when I advocate fitting bolts better to the plate I'm somehow making things too tight?

Looking at this: http://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/FNR/FNR-163.pdf I see that the wood scientists suggest that the primary axes of moisture induced swelling in wood generally occur along the longitudinal (along the grain), radial and tangential axes of a flat sawn plank. A quartersawn blank will swell proportionally more in the radial plane than in the tangential because it is thinner in the tangential plane and the longitudinal swelling will be the same as in a flat sawn plank.

Since the planks we are discussing here have the grain generally running from the screws to the top horn the axial and tangential swelling axes will be to the top and or sides at various angles roughly orthogonal to the saw plate. The screws are typically placed centrally in the section of the tote that surrounds the back of the blade plate where the tangential and radial axes of swelling are directed outward from the plate toward the screw/bolt inner faces at some angle relative to the inner flats of the screws and bolts. Longitudinal swelling will be along the direction of the grain, where the forces will be applied to the sides of the screw/bolt circumferences and the sides of the screw shanks and to the bottom of the blade back.

Depending on the type of wood we are talking about, most planks swell more in the radial and tangential axes. That's why we want quarter sawn planks where the tangential plane thickness is minimal thus reducing or eliminating cupping. But lets face it, straight grained quarter sawn planks have relatively uninspiring figure i.e. they are visually boring. I remember Mr. Murray, my first wood shop teacher, admonishing us all to stick with straight-grained quarter sawn wood. That swirly stuff was for the fireplace.

I have never heard of any advice to loosen the saw screws when you are done using the saw so we can assume that the screws are always left tight.

In the world of artistic saw totes, the beautiful swirly birdseyes and so forth are anisotropically swelling and contracting with every change in ambient humidity. I was reading on the safety forum where there is a note about a fellow having been cracked across the nose with a chunk of jurra burl he was turning which exploded suggesting the presence of lots of anisotropic internal forces. These swelling forces bear heavily on the inside flats of the screws and bolts, i.e. those surfaces facing the radial and tangential planes of the wood, more heavily than they do elsewhere due to two factors. First the flats are the largest pressure bearing surfaces of the screw and second the swelling in the radial and tangential planes is greater generally (depends on the wood) than it is in the longitudinal axis.

It is further clear that these swelling problems should drive the selection good finishing to control moisture content and thus produce a greater degree of dimensional stability.

In other-words, how is a shank that fits tight in the plate causing a problem when it appears that most of the deleterious forces caused by moisture induced swelling and contraction play on the heads of the screws and the faces of the bolts?

I'm not trying to be irritating here but I do want to hear alternatives to my thoughts.

Thanks,
Rob

[RayG]

Hi Rob,
I'd encourage you stick with the mesquite, (that mistletoe infection sounds interesting) and experiment with the vacuum infusion idea, it will be interesting to see how the idea progresses.

I've mostly used walnut and she-oak for saw handles, both are very stable timbers, She-oak is unusual in that the radial and tangential shrinkage are almost the same, and it has a lot of crosslinked grain. Walnut would still be my favourite since I have a ready supply from a friend who is a gunstock maker, walnut also holds detail very well.


Toby,
What you say is mostly true. However, saw screws should always be tight. In this instance wood movement is generally not a problem, other than the timber slowly gets compressed over many years of cyclic moisture changes, I've never seen a saw handle split because of screws being done up too tight. Seen plenty come loose after the timber dries out.

Ray

[rob streeper]

Hi Rob,
I'd encourage you stick with the mesquite, (that mistletoe infection sounds interesting) and experiment with the vacuum infusion idea, it will be interesting to see how the idea progresses.

I've mostly used walnut and she-oak for saw handles, both are very stable timbers, She-oak is unusual in that the radial and tangential shrinkage are almost the same, and it has a lot of crosslinked grain. Walnut would still be my favourite since I have a ready supply from a friend who is a gunstock maker, walnut also holds detail very well.


Toby,
What you say is mostly true. However, saw screws should always be tight. In this instance wood movement is generally not a problem, other than the timber slowly gets compressed over many years of cyclic moisture changes, I've never seen a saw handle split because of screws being done up too tight. Seen plenty come loose after the timber dries out.

Ray

Ray,

I'll post a photo of a mesquite/mistletoe burl in situ. The Tejano's here refer to it as 'tree killer'. Mistletoe infects both mesquite and live-oak in this area.
Your mention of she-oak inspired be to look around and I found a domestic supplier of both she-oak and Australian blackwood, Hearne Hardwoods in Pennsylvania. I'll probably order some after I work out the kinks with mesquite infusion.
The various sources discussing infusion list heating, pressure treatment and vacuum imbibing as methods for saturating woods with acrylics. The Minwax product is in acetone so it should penetrate very well. The acetone will limit me on the vacuum I can draw and heat that can be applied but I think with several cycles I can get the product in. The critical point of acetone is 235 C at 48 bar which is beyond the capability of any chamber I have at this point so supercritical fluid treatment is out.
After infusing I'll try to lightly back-extract the blank with solvent to reduce the polymer content of the outer layer of wood to facilitate finish penetration. Mesquite polishes up like glass using several coats of BLO and the figure of the burls can be really nice.

Rob

[IanW]

Now I'm confused. On the one hand square shank bolts are advocated because they can be tightened more snugly. Yet when I advocate fitting bolts better to the plate I'm somehow making things too tight?

Well Rob, the main reason I advocate square shanks for saw bolts is so they can be un-done (years down the track....)


Looking at this: http://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/FNR/FNR-163.pdf I see that the wood scientists suggest that the primary axes of moisture induced swelling in wood generally occur along the longitudinal (along the grain), radial and tangential axes of a flat sawn plank. A quartersawn blank will swell proportionally more in the radial plane than in the tangential because it is thinner in the tangential plane and the longitudinal swelling will be the same as in a flat sawn plank.


Changes in dimension due to moisture uptake/release are virtually all in the radial & tangential axes. The change in longitudinal dimension is neglible for most woods. Most woods shrink & expand more tangentially than radially, and tangential movement generally increases toward the outside of a log, because this is where the younger fibres are. You can think of it this way, the younger cell walls have had less time to undergo chemical changes & contain less water-excluding gunk, so more room for moisture to be taken up. But where a quartersawn board gets most of its 'stability' from is that the shrinkage & expansion are more symmetrical, and the movement across the widest dimension of a plank should be the lowest possible for that species - but they still move....


....Since the planks we are discussing here have the grain generally running from the screws to the top horn the axial and tangential swelling axes will be to the top and or sides at various angles roughly orthogonal to the saw plate. The screws are typically placed centrally in the section of the tote that surrounds the back of the blade plate where the tangential and radial axes of swelling are directed outward from the plate toward the screw/bolt inner faces at some angle relative to the inner flats of the screws and bolts. Longitudinal swelling will be along the direction of the grain, where the forces will be applied to the sides of the screw/bolt circumferences and the sides of the screw shanks and to the bottom of the blade back.

Depending on the type of wood we are talking about, most planks swell more in the radial and tangential axes. That's why we want quarter sawn planks where the tangential plane thickness is minimal thus reducing or eliminating cupping. But lets face it, straight grained quarter sawn planks have relatively uninspiring figure i.e. they are visually boring. I remember Mr. Murray, my first wood shop teacher, admonishing us all to stick with straight-grained quarter sawn wood. That swirly stuff was for the fireplace.

If you are talking small saws with two bolts, I cannot see any problems arising from tight screws, since the bolts are generally placed pretty much in line with the grain, & there will be virtually no wood movement in that direction. The miniscule amount that does occur is likely to be well within the elastic tolerance of the material (unless your Mesquite is unlike any other wood I've ever met!). Where you might run into trouble is if you used a 'lively' wood for a full-sized saw, with a wide handle, and bolts spread right across it. The fact that you rarely see handles split because of wood movement (or at least I have never come across it) is probably due to the fact that saw makers chose their handle woods wisely. Curly woods, which I happen to like too, can be fine, as long as they have sufficient structural strength, but because of that wild grain, it can be a lot more difficult to ensure that it will be ok, in man cases. Go for woods with a reasonably low coefficient of moisture movement, & good structural properties, & I'm sure you'll have few problems....


.....In the world of artistic saw totes, the beautiful swirly birdseyes and so forth are anisotropically swelling and contracting with every change in ambient humidity. I was reading on the safety forum where there is a note about a fellow having been cracked across the nose with a chunk of jurra burl he was turning which exploded suggesting the presence of lots of anisotropic internal forces. These swelling forces bear heavily on the inside flats of the screws and bolts, i.e. those surfaces facing the radial and tangential planes of the wood, more heavily than they do elsewhere due to two factors. First the flats are the largest pressure bearing surfaces of the screw and second the swelling in the radial and tangential planes is greater generally (depends on the wood) than it is in the longitudinal axis.

It is further clear that these swelling problems should drive the selection good finishing to control moisture content and thus produce a greater degree of dimensional stability.

In other-words, how is a shank that fits tight in the plate causing a problem when it appears that most of the deleterious forces caused by moisture induced swelling and contraction play on the heads of the screws and the faces of the bolts?

I'm not trying to be irritating here but I do want to hear alternatives to my thoughts.

I can't see birds-eye figure per se being much of a problem - I've made several handles from B.E. Maple, with no problems over the medium-term, at least (& I live in a climate with moderately extreme moisture cycles). For really highly figured wood, it is nigh on impossible to predict maximal & minimal dimension changes - you just have to go on experience, trial & error, imo.

I agree with you emphatically, that the major problems come from simple expansion & contraction affecting the wood under the bolt heads & nuts. There is no doubt handles loosen & need tightening when the fibres are crushed beyond their elastic limits, but this generally settles after a cycle or two, as you say.

And unless you encase the handle in some goop that hermetically seals it, this is going to happen. NO 'standard' finish will prevent ingress/egress of water - they will slow it down a bit, but that's all. Some expansion/contraction is going to happen, so lets just get over it & tighten our nuts occasionally. I think this is a 'problem' that is getting over-intellectualised ..... :;

Cheers,

[rob streeper]

Ian,

In the inimitable words of Kant, I think therefore I am.

This very useful discussion has inspired me to go in a new direction - use bushings. The model RC hobbyists here apparently use flanged brass bushings for their purposes. Associated Bushing 3 16 x 5 16 Flanged ASC6863 | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Associated-Bushing-3-16-x-5-16-flanged-ASC6863-/291014993786?pt=US_Radio_Control_Control_Line&hash=item43c1d8677a)

Drilling a little deeper and wider into the screw mounting position would allow me to secure 4 of these in place with epoxy. Since they are porous they are never coming out. Thus increasing the wood to metal bearing surface, stabilizing the local wood with a combination of epoxy and hardener and providing a very tight screw shank to bushing to wood fit that will be much less subject to wear and swelling since the screw head and nut face will bear on the flanges. I'll give it a try and post the results.

Best,
Rob

[Isaac S]

Ian,
...Since they are porous they are never coming out...


I am not familiar with those, but a quick glance at them leads me to believe they are used as bearings. Before you use epoxy on them, you may want to make certain that they are not oil impregnated bronze. If they are, you may have trouble getting with adhesion. That being said, I don't see much need for a glue joint unless you are concerned about the flange rotating or moving in the wood.

I can be a little slow at times, but I'm still not sure I see an advantage to having a super tight fit between the handle and the bolt shank. Unless the wood is 100% stabilized, isn't it better to have a little cushion for expansion and contraction? In theory, you can minimize the movement of the wood between fasteners by choosing the wood orientation carefully and aligning the fasteners with the grain. But what happens if that is not possible? Or when you use three or four fasteners on a larger saw?

[rob streeper]

Hi Isaac,

I thought about the oil impregnation issue too. I'm going to reflux the bearings in methylene chloride or hexane to remove any oil. They're pretty small and it should not take long.

I think that by vacuum infusing the wood with resin, leaching the surface layer back out and setting the bushings in epoxy I will realize the following benefits:

1) A nice tight fit-up of the blade and tote without relying primarily on friction of the tote cheeks against the blade and back.
2) Elimination or near elimination of the moisture driven swelling problem.
3) Elimination of the wood fiber compression problem.
4) Drastic reduction in wear of the screw holes in the tote.
5) Tight mechanical fit of the tote to the blade through the tight fit of the screw shanks to the holes in the plate.
Plus of course I can say that I'm the only one who does it.

Hopefully all of this will eliminate or greatly reduce the need to periodically tighten the screws on with wooden stocked hand saws that at this point we all just live with.

Rob

[planemaker]

Rob. Why not just go down the track of making laminating handles with inset bronze bushes to seat the saw bolts. That would seem to resolve all the concerns you have raised.

Stewie;

[Simplicity]

That could be interesting.
Thought I should say something I've been sitting on the saw line on this one


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1) 2

[rob streeper]

Rob. Why not just go down the track of making laminating handles with inset bronze bushes to seat the saw bolts. That would seem to resolve all the concerns you have raised.

Stewie;


Mark at Bad Axe is already doing laminates. Bad Axe Tool Works - American Kid (http://www.badaxetoolworks.com/8-inch-AmericanKid.html)
I personally don't care for the high contrast 50's look of the majority of laminates. plan59 :: retro 1940s 1950s decor & furniture :: malarkey plywood, 1955 picture on VisualizeUs (http://vi.sualize.us/plan59_retro_1940s_1950s_decor_furniture_malarkey_plywood_1955_someone_s_in_the_kitchen_with_di_50_s_picture_2yKR.html)

I want good looking natural wood that is robust and stable.

[rob streeper]

Ray,

I'll post a photo of a mesquite/mistletoe burl in situ. The Tejano's here refer to it as 'tree killer'. Mistletoe infects both mesquite and live-oak in this area.
Your mention of she-oak inspired be to look around and I found a domestic supplier of both she-oak and Australian blackwood, Hearne Hardwoods in Pennsylvania. I'll probably order some after I work out the kinks with mesquite infusion.
The various sources discussing infusion list heating, pressure treatment and vacuum imbibing as methods for saturating woods with acrylics. The Minwax product is in acetone so it should penetrate very well. The acetone will limit me on the vacuum I can draw and heat that can be applied but I think with several cycles I can get the product in. The critical point of acetone is 235 C at 48 bar which is beyond the capability of any chamber I have at this point so supercritical fluid treatment is out.
After infusing I'll try to lightly back-extract the blank with solvent to reduce the polymer content of the outer layer of wood to facilitate finish penetration. Mesquite polishes up like glass using several coats of BLO and the figure of the burls can be really nice.

Rob


Mesquite burls in in situ. If you look closely at the first photo you can see the mistletoe growing from the branches in the background.

299675299674

[DSEL74]

For the budget conscious with anti rotation. From the blog "Plane Shavings"

299821299822299823299824

[rob streeper]

For the budget conscious with anti rotation. From the blog "Plane Shavings"

299821299822299823299824

Looks very nice to me, distinctive too. Likely that the full size square nuts don't have as much tendency to cause splitting.

[rob streeper]

Ian,

In the inimitable words of Kant, I think therefore I am.

This very useful discussion has inspired me to go in a new direction - use bushings. The model RC hobbyists here apparently use flanged brass bushings for their purposes. Associated Bushing 3 16 x 5 16 Flanged ASC6863 | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Associated-Bushing-3-16-x-5-16-flanged-ASC6863-/291014993786?pt=US_Radio_Control_Control_Line&hash=item43c1d8677a)

Drilling a little deeper and wider into the screw mounting position would allow me to secure 4 of these in place with epoxy. Since they are porous they are never coming out. Thus increasing the wood to metal bearing surface, stabilizing the local wood with a combination of epoxy and hardener and providing a very tight screw shank to bushing to wood fit that will be much less subject to wear and swelling since the screw head and nut face will bear on the flanges. I'll give it a try and post the results.

Best,
Rob

Oops, Descartes, not Kant. I was after 'To be is to do'.

[Simplicity]

Lol


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[Simplicity]

I prefer
I think so there for I make


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[Simplicity]

Ok this is my take on the great saw bolt debate.
I made these earlier today ,they are ruff but in my defense I've been using my metal lathe for about 5 hours so far.
The photos are pretty self explainer try .
But the details are thread is M6,
Bolt head size is 13mm,
With a 45 degree bevel ,
Personally next time I think ,I will go with just flat head off about 3mm .
The bushing is 8mm ,
The bolt heads have also be drilled with 2 1.5mm holes placed 9mm.
Apart of the centre axis ,
These are designed to accommodate a pair of straight cir clip pliers .
Over all I'm happy with them ,
But they did stretch my skill
My reason for not going with the 45 bevel next time is that when ,tightening them up they pull down and also put to much sideways pressure in the counter sink.
Were as a flat will just pull together,
(Hope that all makes sence)
I may also think about making the bush just a fraction over size next time .
And freeze it in the freezer for a few hours before dropping it in to place letting it come back to room ,temperature and locking in place
Similar to old fashion vale guides on a cylinder head.
Now these are just my ramblings
So take them just has that
Matt299866299867299868299869





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

[rob streeper]

Ok this is my take on the great saw bolt debate.
I made these earlier today ,they are ruff but in my defense I've been using my metal lathe for about 5 hours so far.
The photos are pretty self explainer try .
But the details are thread is M6,
Bolt head size is 13mm,
With a 45 degree bevel ,
Personally next time I think ,I will go with just flat head off about 3mm .
The bushing is 8mm ,
The bolt heads have also be drilled with 2 1.5mm holes placed 9mm.
Apart of the centre axis ,
These are designed to accommodate a pair of straight cir clip pliers .
Over all I'm happy with them ,
But they did stretch my skill
My reason for not going with the 45 bevel next time is that when ,tightening them up they pull down and also put to much sideways pressure in the counter sink.
Were as a flat will just pull together,
(Hope that all makes sence)
I may also think about making the bush just a fraction over size next time .
And freeze it in the freezer for a few hours before dropping it in to place letting it come back to room ,temperature and locking in place
Similar to old fashion vale guides on a cylinder head.
Now these are just my ramblings
So take them just has that
Matt299866299867299868299869





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

I really like your design. I agree with your thought on going for a flat face on the wood side. The 45 may split the stock in use and certainly will if overtightened. The large diameter bushings will carry most of the force if they fit the hole in the plate tightly. Punching that size hole in thicker saw plates will take a heavier punch though, what did you use?

[DSEL74]

299868[/ATTACH]299869



I have no problem with the principle of the concept. I quite like the two holes for tightening them up and think they could look more finished than the split nut. I agree that the backs should be flat.

Two questions for you though. What is the off centre hole for? and why make these three part when they could be two part bolt and nut?

[Simplicity]

Hi Rob
If u look closely at the pic with the handle you can see that yes it will split it.with a 45 deg bevel
Because it has!
live and learn
With regards to punching the saw plate holes at present I've just being using ordinary twist drill bits starting with a 2mm and working up to 8mm
But it's hard going and a big pain
So I'm up for any suggestions there I have thought about buying a metal hole punch
Or maybe making a tool steal cutter ?
Matt


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[pmcgee]

This says steel to 60 thou ... HVAC Sheet Metal Kit Hand Hole 7 Punch Die Tool Set New in Case Kit | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/HVAC-Sheet-Metal-Kit-Hand-Hole-7-Punch-Die-Tool-Set-New-in-Case-Kit-/111248204294?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19e6e8e206)

I saw something with a handscrew (punch) but can't find it now ...

also ... Guide to Making Holes in Sheet Metal - How to Work With Sheet Metal - Popular Mechanics (http://www.popularmechanics.com/home/how-to-plans/metalworking/how-to-work-with-sheet-metal)

Flat spring steel, source, and how to drill it? (http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/flat-spring-steel-source-how-drill-142587/)

Paul

Surely someone has made something like this that isn't for copper, gold, etc ... but I can't see it ...
131020170, No. 17 Bench Punch, Pexto Roper Whitney #17 Punch (http://www.trick-tools.com/Roper-Whitney-No-17-Medium-Duty-Bench-Punch-131020170-6478#.Usy5ztIW3Il)

SMH 1972
The Sydney Morning Herald - Google News Archive Search (http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1301&dat=19720116&id=yvhjAAAAIBAJ&sjid=cOUDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3490,5466490)

[planemaker]

Hi Rob
If u look closely at the pic with the handle you can see that yes it will split it.with a 45 deg bevel
Because it has!
live and learn
With regards to punching the saw plate holes at present I've just being using ordinary twist drill bits starting with a 2mm and working up to 8mm
But it's hard going and a big pain
So I'm up for any suggestions there I have thought about buying a metal hole punch
Or maybe making a tool steal cutter ?
Matt


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

Matt. I use a metal cutting fluid when drilling into saw plate steel. The friction generated between the drill tip & saw plate creates more heat build up than the surrounding air can cool. The cutting fluid acts as an additional coolant as well as a lubricant between the 2 surfaces. The metal cutting fluid I use is has the brand name ROCOL RTD. Reaming Tapping Drilling | RTD Liquid (http://www.rocol.com/products/rtd-liquid-reaming-tapping-drilling)
2, 5, then the 8mm size should work fine with the cutting fluid. You may need to give the drill bits a resharpen if you have already burnt the tips from previous use.

Stewie;

[RayG]

This says steel to 60 thou ... HVAC Sheet Metal Kit Hand Hole 7 Punch Die Tool Set New in Case Kit | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/HVAC-Sheet-Metal-Kit-Hand-Hole-7-Punch-Die-Tool-Set-New-in-Case-Kit-/111248204294?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19e6e8e206)

I saw something with a handscrew (punch) but can't find it now ...

also ... Guide to Making Holes in Sheet Metal - How to Work With Sheet Metal - Popular Mechanics (http://www.popularmechanics.com/home/how-to-plans/metalworking/how-to-work-with-sheet-metal)

Flat spring steel, source, and how to drill it? (http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/flat-spring-steel-source-how-drill-142587/)

Paul

Surely someone has made something like this that isn't for copper, gold, etc ... but I can't see it ...
131020170, No. 17 Bench Punch, Pexto Roper Whitney #17 Punch (http://www.trick-tools.com/Roper-Whitney-No-17-Medium-Duty-Bench-Punch-131020170-6478#.Usy5ztIW3Il)

SMH 1972
The Sydney Morning Herald - Google News Archive Search (http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1301&dat=19720116&id=yvhjAAAAIBAJ&sjid=cOUDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3490,5466490)


Hi Paul,
I have that style punch, and it's ok up to 20 thou in spring steel, beyond that you need long bits of pipe on the handles... I prefer drilling when you get thicker than 20 thou.

I've been searching for decent carbide drill bits, and just yesterday a couple of these arrived, so I'm keen to see how they go. The last solid carbide drill bits I tried chipped on the first try, but that was probably my fault as I didn't secure the plate..

http://www.ctctools.biz/catalog/L38_456w.jpg

90 DEGREE CARBIDE SPOT DRILL #L38 (http://www.ctctools.biz/servlet/the-693/90-DEGREE-CARBIDE-SPOT/Detail)

I'll be giving them a trial run in a few days time.

Other alternatives are things like re-worked masonry drills, and the bunnings carbide tipped drill bits I showed at the class.

Ordinary cobalt HSS will drill spring steel as well. Not ideal, but does work, and if they lose the edge they go downhill fast.

Ray

[Simplicity]

Hi Stewie,
Sorry I didn't mention was using heaps of cutting fluid .

Drill bits used were 2.5/4/6.5/8.
All new it does the job I suppose .I'm to use to just mild steel with those loverly ribbons ,
Tho I just had a thought I might try spot weld drill bits I have a few some were(being an ex panel beater ).
Will see how they go.




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[Simplicity]

Ok just found a spot weld cutter
6mm.
Gave it a go on some saw plate and it went ok lots of cutting fluid as standard a little bluing and smoke.
But the hole was nice and clean
Medium speed on the drill press
But the cutter was old and how many spot welds it has done no idea
But I was pleasantly surprised
A new bit would be a lot better 299990


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[planemaker]

I use the black oxide drill bits with the cutting fluid with very good results.

Black oxide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_oxide) is an inexpensive black coating. A black oxide coating provides heat resistance and lubricity, as well as corrosion resistance. Coating increases the life of high-speed steel bits.

[Simplicity]

Just Goolge them they look like they could be a go to
Will have to find some I think
Thanks
Stewie


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[rob streeper]

Hi Rob
If u look closely at the pic with the handle you can see that yes it will split it.with a 45 deg bevel
Because it has!
live and learn
With regards to punching the saw plate holes at present I've just being using ordinary twist drill bits starting with a 2mm and working up to 8mm
But it's hard going and a big pain
So I'm up for any suggestions there I have thought about buying a metal hole punch
Or maybe making a tool steal cutter ?
Matt


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

Hi Matt,

I use this for punching plates:

300026

It is a Whitney Jensen No. 5 Junior sheet metal punch. I think these are still made. I have never tried the cheaper knock off's. This works great with any size of punch/die on plates 0.020" and thinner. It makes about 1 ton pressure. I am on the lookout for a heavier punch so I can do larger holes in 0.032" plates. On thicker steel I typically start with a 1/8" or 5/32" hole and then ream to size with these tapered reamers:

300027

This method allows me to get pretty much any size hole I need.

I have tried drilling and grinding saw steel and found it to be a slow, painful and inaccurate process.

Rob

[Simplicity]

Hi Rob
Do the reams work out ok in the saw plate
I've been thinking about getting a set


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[pmcgee]

No. 5 Junior sheet metal punch.
How far can it reach into the plate, please?

Regarding coolant, I think I've seen IanW say he got worse results drilling with coolant.

Cheers,
Paul

[rob streeper]

Hi Rob
Do the reams work out ok in the saw plate
I've been thinking about getting a set


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They work really well. If you get a set remember to never turn them backward as doing so could damage the cutting edge. So far I am extremely happy with the results. The reamers allow for the careful adjustment of the hole sizes in both the stock and the plate such that they fit the screw shanks very nicely unlike the misshapen holes that are so easily made by a standard twist drill. I'm waiting on the bearings I mentioned earlier - then I will bore all pieces to be perfectly aligned with the reamers. I'll post the results.

[DSEL74]

How far can it reach into the plate, please?

Regarding coolant, I think I've seen IanW say he got worse results drilling with coolant.

Cheers,
Paul

Ray got worse results slitting the backs with coolant.