Slideway and machine oils

[Pete F]

I know the topic of where to source oils in small quantities comes up relatively frequently.

Here is a source in the US who will happily send to Oz, and I have some on its way now. Obviously not just for Southbend/Hercus, I was particularly keen to see the slideway oil in small quantities as I didn't really need another 20l container of oil to store

bluechipmachineshop | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/bluechipmachineshop/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=200&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2654)

Pete

[Anorak Bob]

I know the topic of where to source oils in small quantities comes up relatively frequently.

Here is a source in the US who will happily send to Oz, and I have some on its way now. Obviously not just for Southbend/Hercus, I was particularly keen to see the slideway oil in small quantities as I didn't really need another 20l container of oil to store

bluechipmachineshop | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/bluechipmachineshop/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=200&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2654)

Pete

Hello Pete,

The seller offers Vactra II. I'm wondering if it's way oil with the tackifiers in or out. GQ had posted a comment a while back about Mobil removing tackifiers from Vactra II in response to a printing industry request.
Alan "C-47" has some old Vactra II, real sticky stringy stuff. I have probably 18 litres of newer Vactra II. A different oil. Hardly stringy or sticky. When your ex US oil rolls up let me know. I'll give you a pint of mine for comparison.

Bob.

[Pete F]

Awesome, thanks Bob. I'll swap you some unused Little Creatures. Not sure about the tackifiers, but Mick is a nice guy and may either know or find out.

Pete

[Anorak Bob]

Awesome, thanks Bob. I'll swap you some unused Little Creatures. Not sure about the tackifiers, but Mick is a nice guy and may either know or find out.

Pete

If it's that dainty eau de cologne like Pale Ale there will be no swapping. My pint will be a gift. Ha ha.

Had I known you were chasing spindle oil Pete I would have offered you some of 17 or so litres I have of Mobil DTE Heavy Medium ISO68 hydraulic oil I bought for the 13 and the Hercus spindles. Have you hit the "buy it know" button?

Bob.

[Michael G]

I have a 20 litre drum of Shell Tonna 68 that you can have a sample of if you wish to compare.

Michael

[morrisman]

If it is of use to anyone, I have a paper copy of the old/new Shell chart for their product codes . The chart is available on the yahoo Colchester group files .

BTW Some of the old Tellus oil range is now called Morlina

[Pete F]

Nah it's not the spindle oil Bob, I can go down to the local Autopro or whatever they call themselves and buy 68 no problems. It was the way oil I was basically after, however a small amount of spindle oil will nevertheless last quite a long time. I have been using compressor oil, which has similar properties, but I doubt whether it has the same pedigree.

Pete

[Greg Q]

I too have Shell Tonna 68 alleged way oil. I think that it too has had the tackifiers removed. Phil Machtool gave me some of the stuff he uses for comparison and the difference is night and day.

BTW, I was off about that because I went to some lengths to find what was supposed to be real way oil. The Shell rep assured me that it was original formula, classic coke. It behaves more like motor oil.

The mobil dealer will sell Vacuoline 1409 but only in 20 litre cans. It is supposed to be the the same as the old Vactra II.

I am just going to buy whatever it is that Phil uses. Cannot recall the name right now. Magna something or other.

Greg

[Abratool]

Greg
I was communicating with BT on this long talked about subject, only this week.
Ive been using Castrol EPX 80 W 90 gear oil for tumbler gears, back gears, & slideway lube. However have been thinking of adding a bit of Chain Bar oil to make it stick a little more.
What are your thoughts on this?
regards
Bruce

[Greg Q]

Greg
I was communicating with BT on this long talked about subject, only this week.
Ive been using Castrol EPX 80 W 90 gear oil for tumbler gears, back gears, & slideway lube. However have been thinking of adding a bit of Chain Bar oil to make it stick a little more.
What are your thoughts on this?
regards
Bruce

Hi Bruce...I am undecided about all of this. Originally I was a purist about oils, but then realised that even the oil companies don't seem to give a #### about changed specifications and trade names. That said, I reckon the closest oil you can get to a sticky genuine way oil should do the trick.

There have been discussions every few weeks about way oils on the other forums. One thing I have noted is that detergent oils (all motor oils) contain contaminants in suspension so that they can be filtered out. Of course our machines lack filters so that feature is counter-productive.

Chain saw bar oils contain tackifiers to make it stick to the bar. I don't imagination that there are many tacky agents, so maybe it would be a good solution after all*

*All of my oil experience comes from either Porsche racing or aviation. Both of those activities are completely intolerant of substitution, so I have a habit of just following the printed specifications. Hobby friendly tribologists with useful experience based advice seem to be pretty thin on the ground.

[Abratool]

Hi Bruce...I am undecided about all of this. Originally I was a purist about oils, but then realised that even the oil companies don't seem to give a #### about changed specifications and trade names. That said, I reckon the closest oil you can get to a sticky genuine way oil should do the trick.

There have been discussions every few weeks about way oils on the other forums. One thing I have noted is that detergent oils (all motor oils) contain contaminants in suspension so that they can be filtered out. Of course our machines lack filters so that feature is counter-productive.

Chain saw bar oils contain tackifiers to make it stick to the bar. I don't imagination that there are many tacky agents, so maybe it would be a good solution after all*

*All of my oil experience comes from either Porsche racing or aviation. Both of those activities are completely intolerant of substitution, so I have a habit of just following the printed specifications. Hobby friendly tribologists with useful experience based advice seem to be pretty thin on the ground.

Greg
Yes, I think hobbyists can go a bit deep with the oil.
My lathe was purchased new about 23 yrs ago, & as mentioned to BT, if the ways are kept clean & wet with oil that will suffice the hobbyist or occasional user.
The main substances that wear out lathe beds, cross slides tailstock slides etc are filings from a file, abrasive grit from polishing, using strips of Coated Abrasive,& Scotchbrite, cast iron dust, small chips, dirt & the like. These are killers of accurate sliding surfaces.
Ive mentioned before, that I always place a sheet of paper or better still a piece of foam sponge across the lathe bed to pick up this type of crud, when doing these operations.
My lathe is still accurate & like new, I think its because of these steps, rather than the use of some U beaut Lube.
However, I might try a bit of the chain bar oil (tacky) with my current EPX 80 W 90 gear oil.
Thanks for your input.
regards
Bruce

[pippin88]

Anyone in Newcastle is welcome to contact me for some Vactra 2 (the stuff that's sold currently). I bought 20L of it.

[jack620]

Bruce,
wouldn't tacky oil just encourage the nasties you mentioned to stick more tenaciously to the ways?
Chris

[Greg Q]

Bruce, I agree that hygiene is more important than oil spec. Things like rigorous protection and cleaning after using abrasives or machining abrasive materials. Also, I was amazed that many hobby type lathes lack oilers on the saddle. The only way to get oil under the saddle is of course to have oilers which feed onto the ways between the wipers where the oil is needed.

Simple things like lifting the front of the tailstock before you slide it forward does a lot to eliminate tailstock way wear. (Huge lathes often have air injection to create a hover cushion to prevent way wear)

On my mill I have decided to incorporate a one-shot oiler for both convenience and reliability. (The unreliable element of course is me)

Greg

[welder]

Thanks this post its very useful, I use valvoline Ultramax 68 hydraulic oil for everything have had no problems.

[Michael G]

Bruce,
wouldn't tacky oil just encourage the nasties you mentioned to stick more tenaciously to the ways?
Chris

That was always the objection posted by Tee-nut (the late Robert Bastow). For that reason he always used plain hydraulic oil. I don't know whether that was the old style sticky oil or the later not so sticky.
Thinking about it though as we oil our machines regularly, probably don't flood them with coolant (that is, wash off the oil) and don't run them around the clock, the oil present should stay around long enough to do the job intended regardless of how sticky it is.
For hobby use provided that a quality oil is present parts should be able to slide without any issues. I must admit I prefer using way oil but my main reasoning is that the stickiness that is present will hold the oil (corrosion protection) in place for longer when I'm not using the machine. (The other reason is that it was recommended to me by a good friend now departed who worked at Shell and I continue to use it in his memory - everyone has to have a few irrational reasons in their life)

Michael

[Anorak Bob]

Originally I was a purist about oils, but then realised that even the oil companies don't seem to give a #### about changed specifications and trade names. tribologists with useful experience

Names have changed. In my 1959 copy of the 13's Service Instructions there is a lubrication table. For the spindle, gearbox, slide screws and all other oiling points, the use of Vacuum Oil Company's Gargoyle VACTRA Heavy Medium was recommended. Vacuum Oil was renamed MOBIL in the early'60s. The Shell alternative was Vitrea Oil 33. By the late sixties, the heavier revamped version of the 13 was available and the oil recommended was Mobil DTE Light. Shell's equivalent was Tellus Oil 27.

I purchased 20 litres of Mobil DTE Heavy Medium because the Shell Vitrea 33 was the equivalent of an ISO68 circulating oil. A search at the time for Gargoyle Vactra Heavy Medium proved fruitless. The later mills used a thinner oil and they used that oil for way lubrication. Makes me wonder about the importance of tackifiers in way oil when Schaublin weren't concerned by their absence. I also wonder if these newer oils bear any semblance to their predecessors.

BT

[Pete F]

Bruce I use chain bar oil on the gears and it works a treat, you can actually see it stringing off the gears.

The felt wipers "should" in theory both wipe the ways clean and provide a film of oil for the saddle to ride on. Greg is right, the ideal is to have an oil port on the saddle, and some people add one to assist. However I personally just wipe the ways clean and run some oil on the ways periodically before moving the saddle, and I feel that's fine. Apart from the points Bruce made, I think one reason the wear occurs is because people typically never replace the way wipers and crud just goes straight past them. I also use Greg's technique of lifting the tailstock nose as I move it. The TS is even more critical as it often has no wipers so anything on the ways will just be munched up as the tailstock passes over it.

I've heard there's a surprising difference in a manual machine when going to specific way oil, with noticeably smoother travel. However I have yet to try it, but thought the price if admission was worth giving it a go. I definitely agree that some people get too carried away with oils, and as long as it's good quality and plenty of it, no two headed babies are in danger of being born as a result of using the "wrong" oil.

Pete

[Grahame Collins]

I once spoke with a man who has a machine shop and he said he uses the proper way oil for the reason that the "real" way oil is less likely to be washed off the ways by coolant.He was saying that the way oil will not float on water like the mineral oils do.Further to this he said that it is the presence of the mineral oil in coolant, that is the prime cause of the bacterial action and degradation of the coolant.

This was well before I took it in to my head to to fit a coolant system to my lathe. I have checked out the availability of this way oil and it comes in 200 litre containers. Alzheimers is setting in ,I fear,as I can't remember the name of the stuff.

My 1 litre chain bar oil lasts me a year .Its the price of the coolant thats expensive $14 litre - Castrol clear edge EP690 - I want it to last more than a few weeks, before it needs changing.

My machine shop owner ,alas,was not local so I may have to ring up some shops and ask will the sell me some as they buy it in 200l drums.
Thats my 2C worth

Grahame

[Ueee]

Makes me wonder about the importance of tackifiers in way oil when Schaublin weren't concerned by their absence. I also wonder if these newer oils bear any semblance to their predecessors.

BT

The Vernier is the same. Y is lubed with overflow from the X reversing gear, i think when you use rapid it displaces enough oil to cause it to spill over 4 little weirs and down to the y way "well" (the round t slot for the swivel clamp bolts).
The X and Z have there own wells, one on each end, and the recommended oil is the same as everywhere else, BP HP 10C. As far as i can find basically ISO34 hydraulic oil.

[whitey56]

I have Tarted up a X/Y table off a HM35 for future use with a gearheaded drill, after cleaning i assembled it with airtool
oil everything worked smoothly then i found 1/2 a drum of Tellus 68 in the oil cupboard and gave it a good drink thru the oilers. The table has sat for 3 mths now and the handwheels have become noticably stiffer, so much that i think i should dilute the Tellus once i find the Rega that has decided to play hide&seek in the shed.
Maybe 68 is to coarse for way oil.
Cheers

[cba_melbourne]

Way oil is designed for industrial tool machines with heavy surface pressures. And those have real good, well made and expensive way wipers. Wipers that not only wipe coolant and dust off, these wipe the ways dry if you did not use way oil. But hobby lathes have either no wipers, cheap plastic wipers that do not even fit properly, or the better hobbymachines use felt wipers. With felt wipers you want to use an oil that is not too heavy, one that easily percolates through the felt from top to wash dust and chips off. I also remove the felts regularly to wash in shellite or the like and squeeze them between a cotton rag in the vise to remove all metal dust. Way oils does in my opinion just not work well with felt wipers.

But if the OP insists, chain bar oil is the closest there is to good old way oil. It has the thickener to be tacky, it has thee rust inhibitors, but may lack the high pressure additives and the bactericides. Just buy a good brand chain bar oil, not cheapest stuff possibly recicled from old engine oil. Chris

[Pete F]

If you haven't used the machine for quite some time I think it is more a case of the volatile components of the oil evaporating off rather than what you used on there initially. I hadn't used one of my lathes for a while and last night moved things around, the oil I'd put on there was basically gone and of course the operation stiff until I relubed everything.

Grahame, yes that's definitely one of the properties of way oil. The other is the reduction of stick-slip I alluded to above. I have no idea of what additive is used to reduce that effect. The basic premise is clear enough in the title, but is explained more clearly here Stick-slip phenomenon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stick-slip_phenomenon) As mentioned, I've heard from guys who have poo-pooed special way oil, then switched to give it a go and said they noticed a definite improvement.

I'm looking at the oiling chart of a new mill I've (hopefully) bought, and note it specifies Mobil Vactra #2 for everything except the spindle bearing which are greased. But what would the Swiss know about making precision components.

Pete

Edit: Incidentally, the local machine shop uses engine oil for everything. The owner looked at me as if I had two heads when I asked him what oil he used in his machines (I was hoping it was some magic elixir I could offer to buy a small amount off of him). I didn't get the impression this was a "measure once, cut, weld, repeat" bodge-shop either. So the bottom line is probably "who cares" as long as it's lubed. But I do believe some oils will be better suited to the specific tasks to which they're formulated. I've met guys who have worked in the oil (lubricant) industry and the oil companies spend a bucket load on devising these specific formulae, so I don't suppose they do it because they have nothing better to do with their time.

[Mutawintji]

I have a mini lathe and a number of vises. (cheeeeper things wear kwiker)

After reading this thread I am totally confused about all the oils.

Is there any problem with just using differential oil (hypoid) ?


Greg

[Garry Edwards]

RS Components sells a 5 litre drum of Castrol Magna BD68,51 for slideway lubrication around the $60:00 mark

Regards

Garry

[Barterbuilt]

For what it's worth I use Castrol Magnaglide in my machines and have done since new 15 years ago.
Never had a problem. But then again I use them all day everyday.
The coolant mix can sometimes cause grief.

Andrew

[Garry Edwards]

Just a bit off the track but what are people using for coolant on Lathes, Mills and Surface grinders as this can have an effect on the lubrication as well?

Garry

[Michael G]

Greg, some oil is better than none.

For machines we try to steer clear of engine oil as they can have various additives in it that may not do a machine tool much good (such as detergents and viscosity modifiers). Machine tools do not get up to engine temperatures so some of these things that need heat to make them work never get to do that.

A straight single grade oil is alright, which yours probably is. The oils being talked about as slide way oils have 'tacifiers' added to make them stickier (or more tacky). This used to be a chlorinated hydrocarbon but I don't know what is used now. The reasoning being that they will stick to the surfaces that need to be lubricated better, so lower friction and better corrosion protection. However, as has been stated they also can hold pieces of grit and fine swarf in suspension so may act as an abrasive slurry. With the advent of newer and faster (CNC) machine tools the oils are changing so that the oils recommended in the '60's say may not exist anymore or if they do be in name only. This is an issue for those of us with older machines as we would like to use oil with the right characteristics so that they last and perform as well as they are able to.

Makes me wonder whether there is a niche market out there for someone who can re-create the oils of 50 years ago for all of us old machine buffs.

Michael

[Abratool]

Way oil is designed for industrial tool machines with heavy surface pressures. And those have real good, well made and expensive way wipers. Wipers that not only wipe coolant and dust off, these wipe the ways dry if you did not use way oil. But hobby lathes have either no wipers, cheap plastic wipers that do not even fit properly, or the better hobbymachines use felt wipers. With felt wipers you want to use an oil that is not too heavy, one that easily percolates through the felt from top to wash dust and chips off. I also remove the felts regularly to wash in shellite or the like and squeeze them between a cotton rag in the vise to remove all metal dust. Way oils does in my opinion just not work well with felt wipers.

But if the OP insists, chain bar oil is the closest there is to good old way oil. It has the thickener to be tacky, it has thee rust inhibitors, but may lack the high pressure additives and the bactericides. Just buy a good brand chain bar oil, not cheapest stuff possibly recicled from old engine oil. Chris
Chris
Thanks for the hint on the felt wiper maintenance.
I just followed your instructions on the use of Shellite, & cleaned up the 4 felt wipers on my Hercus 260 lathe.
There was a lot of crud that had collected over the last 23 yrs in the wipers.
Also followed your method of squeezing the felts in a cloth in the vise.
All went well.
Thanks again for the advice.
regards
Bruce
ps I will do this little job a bit more frequently, in future.

[Machtool]

Bruce.

What thickness do you think your original felt would have been? I can lay my hands on some new stuff at the moment. In several sizes.

Phil.

[Anorak Bob]

Bruce.

What thickness do you think your original felt would have been? I can lay my hands on some new stuff at the moment. In several sizes.

Phil.

To save Bruce the trouble of removing a felt. I'd say an 1/8" Phil.

Bob.

[Mutawintji]

Greg, some oil is better than none.


A straight single grade oil is alright, which yours probably is


Michael

Thanx Michael.

greg

[krisfarm]

I have been using chain saw bar oil mixed with hydraulic oil mixed three parts hydraulic to one part bar oil for the last few years on my lathe's ways it certainly stays in place a lot longer than just straight oil and you can feel the reduced friction when sliding the tail stock. Just recently I changed over to using auto transmission oil mixed in with the bar oil and it appears to work just as well. The reason I changed over was the easy of obtaining the auto transmission oil, shorter distance and can be brought in smaller quantity.
Bob

[Ueee]

I have a big roll of 3/16th thick if anyone wants some, there's more there than i will use in my life!

I bought a little bottle of chain bar oil today, just to have a play with it.

[jack620]

Mal sells Hercus way felts. For the price I reckon you'd be crazy to try and make them:

way felts (http://australianmetalworkinghobbyist.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&filter_name=felt&product_id=110)

[Pete F]

RS Components sells a 5 litre drum of Castrol Magna BD68,51 for slideway lubrication around the $60:00 mark

Regards

Garry


Great, thanks for the heads-up on RS components Garry, I would never have thought of them for this type of thing.

Pete

[cba_melbourne]

ps I will do this little job a bit more frequently, in future.

Bruce, if you keep several sets of felt wipers soaked in oil handy, you can very quickly swap them out when dirty. Then only once in a while do the washing/squeezing procedure for the whole batch. I would recommend to swap the wipers, after having worked with stuff that creates abrasive dust, such as cutting cast iron or using the grinder. Once you start doing this, it is incredible how much fine metal dust comes out of a felt wiper after only a month or two of usage.

As an added idea, I have seen pics of Southbends where the owners have added felts (one V shaped and one flat) to the left tailstock edge. Probably a wise idea, especially if one hooks the tailstock to the carriage (like a tender to a locomotive) to do some drilling with automatic feed. Chris

[Abratool]

Mal sells Hercus way felts. For the price I reckon you'd be crazy to try and make them:

way felts (http://australianmetalworkinghobbyist.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&filter_name=felt&product_id=110)
Agree, the price from Mal is $12.60 posted for 4 felts.
These look to be Die Cut & would be very fiddly to cut by hand.
Thanks,I will order.
regards
Bruce

[Abratool]

Bruce, if you keep several sets of felt wipers soaked in oil handy, you can very quickly swap them out when dirty. Then only once in a while do the washing/squeezing procedure for the whole batch. I would recommend to swap the wipers, after having worked with stuff that creates abrasive dust, such as cutting cast iron or using the grinder. Once you start doing this, it is incredible how much fine metal dust comes out of a felt wiper after only a month or two of usage.

As an added idea, I have seen pics of Southbends where the owners have added felts (one V shaped and one flat) to the left tailstock edge. Probably a wise idea, especially if one hooks the tailstock to the carriage (like a tender to a locomotive) to do some drilling with automatic feed. Chris
Chris
After cleaning & refitting the saddle felts I thought the same thing, why not fit some to the tailstock.
Thanks
Bruce

[DSEL74]

Hi guys, this looks like a good place to pose a few questions.


On the comment to lift the nose of the tail stock before moving wouldn't this cause more gunk to get trapped under the tail stock body and still dragged but under load????


I have a Colchester lathe and it was always missing the felt wipers anyone know if there is a specific type of felt required and when I can get some?

Also I need to get some oils for the lathe both for the ways and i guess I should change the oil in the head. Suggestion where to get a small quantity in Eastern Suburbs of Melb or within a reasonable distance.

Cheers.

[Machtool]

anyone know if there is a specific type of felt required and when I can get some?

Two places I know of in Melbourne as Australian Felt Specialists in Blackburn & J.J Davies and Sons in Huntingdale.

Australian Felt Specialists Pty Ltd (http://www.ausfelt.com/)

JJ Davies (http://www.feltdistribution.com/)

What you want is Engineering Felt. Just tell them you want it for machine wipers. Both companies have been around for ever.

Regards Phil.

[DSEL74]

Two places I know of in Melbourne as Australian Felt Specialists in Blackburn & J.J Davies and Sons in Huntingdale.

Australian Felt Specialists Pty Ltd (http://www.ausfelt.com/)

JJ Davies (http://www.feltdistribution.com/)

What you want is Engineering Felt. Just tell them you want it for machine wipers. Both companies have been around for ever.

Regards Phil.



Cheers, Machtool……. Mine are just rectangular shape with two holes, and a vee in one side of the bed so should be easy to cut.

[jack620]

On the comment to lift the nose of the tail stock before moving wouldn't this cause more gunk to get trapped under the tail stock body and still dragged but under load????

Good question. Anybody know the answer?

[Anorak Bob]

Good question. Anybody know the answer?

Not an answer but an alternative. I push the tailstock back and clean the swarf off the ways. I oil the ways with my Vactra II pretend :no:way oil before I slide the TS forward.

Oil cups or nipples on the saddle and wipers on the TS are on the list. Been there for a while but laziness has prevailed.

BT

[Dave J]

I fitted tailstock way wipers a few years back, best thing I ever did. I still usually still wipe the way before moving the tailstock but these wipers still pick up a lot.

They are just made from a bit of sheet metal folded in the vice.

258613258614

Dave

[Ueee]

Hi Dave,
I take it the black knob is to stop crashing the t/s into your dro scale?

[Dave J]

It is to save the scale, it's just a longer bolt with a plastic cap on it, and it has a nut that holds the way wiper on.

Dave

[Pete F]

Good question. Anybody know the answer?

Perhaps the comment about "lifting" it is a bit misleading. It's not so much lifting it off the ways as taking pressure off the front of it. I doubt it's high enough to allow any more gunk to slide under, and I always make an effort to clean the ways before sliding it around too much anyway.

Just what works for me.

Pete

[Greg Q]

Pete has it right...the action is just to relieve the bulldozer effect on the leading edge of the tailstock. I have read that some larger lathes had air injection into the tailstock to allow it to float along the ways, a piece of innovation that I am doing my best to ignore while in the rebuilding phase:wink:

GQ

[Pete F]

I'd never heard of it until you mentioned it, but the air sounds like a great idea Greg. The layer escaping would help blow any chips out of the way on the ways too. Goodness knows there's plenty of hot air to spare around my workshop, it's just a matter of harnessing it for such things!!!!

Pete

[jack620]

Thanks fellas. The tailstock wipers look like the go. I'll put it on The List.

[Abratool]

Thanks everyone on the wiper advice.
Just finished fitting Tailstock wipers on my Hercus 260 lathe.
Purchased the die cut felt & metal holders from Mal at AMH.
With a bit of modification made one set to suit the flat way.
They work well.
regards
Bruce

[Anorak Bob]

Thanks everyone on the wiper advice.
Just finished fitting Tailstock wipers on my Hercus 260 lathe.
Purchased the die cut felt & metal holders from Mal at AMH.
With a bit of modification made one set to suit the flat way.
They work well.
regards
Bruce

I take it you are still working your way through the new Coolpix instruction book Bruce.:roll:

I have just been searching for Paula's saddle oiler modification details in PM's South Bend forum and found this thread about installing oil cups in the tailstock. Seems like a idea with some merit. Easy enough to acheive with a two piece tailstock. - Installing ball oilers for bedway lubrication (http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/south-bend-lathes/installing-ball-oilers-bedway-lubrication-186693/)

I'm still looking for Paula's thread.

[jack620]

Saddle oilers would be a worthwhile mod, but in their absence I just regularly flood each way wiper with oil. The oil runs down through the felt and onto the ways.

[Abratool]

I take it you are still working your way through the new Coolpix instruction book Bruce.:roll:

I have just been searching for Paula's saddle oiler modification details in PM's South Bend forum and found this thread about installing oil cups in the tailstock. Seems like a idea with some merit. Easy enough to acheive with a two piece tailstock. - Installing ball oilers for bedway lubrication (http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/south-bend-lathes/installing-ball-oilers-bedway-lubrication-186693/)

I'm still looking for Paula's thread.

Yep, still reading the Nikon Coolpix Instruction book, Photos should be forthcoming
very soon :U
regards
Bruce

[Anorak Bob]

Found one of Paula's posts. It seems that an oil cup is more beneficial than a nipple. - Carriage way oilers (http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/south-bend-lathes/carriage-way-oilers-154196/#post860096)

BT

[Michael G]

From what I can read Bob the problem seems to be that there is no space for a reserve of oil to go. Paula was hoping to use the space at the top of the V. I'm wondering whether the top of the V in the carriage needs to be machined out a little bit so that it can store some oil. If you think about the volume of one of those cups not much would need to be taken off. All you want is a void that oil can sit in and will allow the air to be displaced/ compressed.
The bottom of my tailstock has a cavity in it for that reason - the oiler feeds to the cavity and then the oil gravity feeds to the oil outlets on the base. The system works fine (until some idiot decides that shooting it full of grease is a better move).

Michael

[Greg Q]

In the Seattle scraping class they showed us a tool for releiving the corner of dovetails. It was just a length of hacksaw blade set into a wooden handle. See illustration.

Such a tool could easily provide enough relief in the apex of the vee.

Bob, if you are planning such a mod, I have a plethora of ball oilers.

Greg260213

[Anorak Bob]

In the Seattle scraping class they showed us a tool for releiving the corner of dovetails. It was just a length of hacksaw blade set into a wooden handle. See illustration.

Such a tool could easily provide enough relief in the apex of the vee.

Bob, if you are planning such a mod, I have a plethora of ball oilers.

Greg

K type M6 thread GQ?

[Greg Q]

No Bob, just push-in type

GQ

[Pete F]

Rather than machining the casting, I prefer the solution I've seen somewhere, where a "spacer", thick enough to take an oil cup, is made in either aluminium or brass to sandwich between the casting and the existing felt/brass holder. It's little more than a hollowed out section mimicking the profile of the existing felt brass holder with enough cavity inside it to contain the oil reserve from the oil cup. I'm sure some would be happy to show off their scraping prowess to match the way's V and get a good seal, but otherwise stuff it full of felt to prevent the oil simply flowing out and, place one between each felt wiper and the casting. The advantage is it's fully reversible back to original factory condition rather than a potential embarrassing screw up with castings.

Pete

[jack620]

I like the sound of that mod Pete. I'm picturing something like this. My Sketchup skills aren't too good, so these are a bit rough. Basically, a threaded hole in the top to take an oil cup, below that a well to hold a reasonable amount of oil and a suitable sized port to carry the oil to the ways through a felt wick. Any oil that runs forward through the horizontal screw hole would be soaked up by the way felt.

[Ueee]

I posted this pic for Stuart when he was doing his lathe scraping, but here it is again. Sorry about the size, it is the best i can find, but this would have been the style of wiper originally on my LeBlond. I will make some when i get to that stage. Instead of exposing the edge of the felt to the way it has felt flat on each surface, and a cup on top to keep a constant supply up. Mind you my Leblond has something like 118 square inches of saddle to bed contact, so a lot of oil needs to be kept up to the ways to keep them lubed.

[Pete F]

I like the sound of that mod Pete. I'm picturing something like this. My Sketchup skills aren't too good, so these are a bit rough. Basically, a threaded hole in the top to take an oil cup, below that a well to hold a reasonable amount of oil and a suitable sized port to carry the oil to the ways through a felt wick. Any oil that runs forward through the horizontal screw hole would be soaked up by the way felt.

Yep, in a nutshell that's it. In reality, it may prove more effective in controlling the oil if much of the V was machined out and replaced with felt (ie the darker area on your sketch, machine it out to leave just a rim to form the V). Otherwise I think unless it was scraped to a good fit the oil would just run out. With the centre part of the V machined away it would act like a pair of little felt pads charged with oil from the oil cup wiping an oil film along the ways as the saddle moved up and down. It probably wouldn't matter if the oil came out on to the wiper felt, but to stop it simply running out through the wipers while the machine was not being used a small O-ring could be placed on the screw.

Your Sketchup skills are certainly better than mine. Unfortunately I'm away at them moment, otherwise I could probably make a set of these in the time it would take me to figure out how to draw them in Sketchup!!

Pete

[Steamwhisperer]

Hi Pete,
I really like that idea. It should almost be mandatory as a felt becomes a broom when it is dry and not a wiper, and a coarse haired broom at that. I find a lot of people aren't as diligent on lubrication and think that the felts will take up the slack, which is great in theory, but...

Phil

[jack620]

I see what you mean Pete. Milling out the guts of the V might be a challenge though. Maybe a length of square felt in the square void above the V? That would prevent the oil draining out too quickly and hopefully the way wiper would spread it around. I squirt oil on my way felts every time I use the lathe, so it wouldn't bother me if I had to fill the oil cups every day.

Another idea might be to mill a nice wide slot across the V block and sandwich a piece of felt in it. Cut a V in the felt to match the block. I'll try and knock up a sketch.

Chris

[jack620]

Like this:

[RayG]

K type M6 thread GQ?


Hi BT,

How many do you need? Straight or 45 degree?

Regards
Ray

EDIT... Sorry I only have H type... but I remembered the 6mm correctly.. :)

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/BallOilers.JPG

[Pete F]

I see what you mean Pete. Milling out the guts of the V might be a challenge though. Maybe a length of square felt in the square void above the V? That would prevent the oil draining out too quickly and hopefully the way wiper would spread it around. I squirt oil on my way felts every time I use the lathe, so it wouldn't bother me if I had to fill the oil cups every day.

Chris

Chris, to mill out the "guts" (I just knew there would be a technical name for it) of the V, place it in your milling vice with one of the flats of the V parallel to the table. If your V ways are the typical 90 degrees, the the other face of the V will stand 90 degrees perpendicular to the table and pointing up so you will have clearance. You should be able to then plunge a small end mill into the face of the V and mill out a suitable pocket for the felt. If you don't have a milling machine and have manually cut and filed some aluminium to shape, you should be able to do the same thing by placing it in a drill press vise and pecking away a pocket. Milling would definitely be neater but nobody is going to see the end result. The outside can be profiled on a linisher to echo the profile of the brass felt holder, only larger.

Pete

[Anorak Bob]

Hi BT,

How many do you need? Straight or 45 degree?

Regards
Ray

EDIT... Sorry I only have H type... but I remembered the 6mm correctly.. :)



You had me excited for a while there Ray. A bloke had sent me a couple pruned from 102 he was parting. One was OK, the other marginally better than one I was hoping to replace. Hence the excitement at your unedited offer.:U

BT

[RayG]

You had me excited for a while there Ray. A bloke had sent me a couple pruned from 102 he was parting. One was OK, the other marginally better than one I was hoping to replace. Hence the excitement at your unedited offer.:U

BT


Well, I feel morally obliged to assist your quest for suitable nipples ( ... no comments please )

I see pressol have them but no price? Products (http://www.pressol.com/portal/page/portal/Pressol/Products?Show=itemDetails&ShowId=3623&cat=224&dspMode=)

Here's another mit price schmiernippel, nippel, kugelschmiernippel, K1, M6x1, DIN3402, edelstahlschmiernippel, v2a (http://www.mafa-shop.de/Lubrication-Grease-and-Oil/Grease-Nipples-and-Accessories/Stainless-Steel-AISI303-1-4305/K1-180%C2%B0-straight-DIN3402A/AISI-303-Lubricating-Nipples-K1-M6x1-09502104::44.html)

Or if you prefer ebay.de 10 Schmiernippel / Kugelschmiernippel K1 M6x1 Messing | eBay (http://www.ebay.de/itm/10-Schmiernippel-Kugelschmiernippel-K1-M6x1-Messing-/260701345459?pt=Motorrad_Kraftradteile&hash=item3cb302d6b3)

Search ebay.de for "Schmiernippel K1 M6x1"

Regards
Ray

PS I notice that seller only ships to EU, but you can use the Austrian Address for shipito..

[Anorak Bob]

Hey Ray,

I had contacted the seller, Waschbe, back in October regarding postage for ten schmiernipples. Then I dragged my feet...

Hello Bob,

I can arrange a shipment to Australia, no problem. The costs for the shipment will be 9,50 EUR for this small item.

Kind regards
Florian Wagner

- waschbe

Pretty obliging some of these Germans. So rather than continue the procrastination, I just hit the buy it now button.

BT

[jack620]

Chris, to mill out the "guts" (I just knew there would be a technical name for it) of the V, place it in your milling vice with one of the flats of the V parallel to the table. If your V ways are the typical 90 degrees, the the other face of the V will stand 90 degrees perpendicular to the table and pointing up so you will have clearance. You should be able to then plunge a small end mill into the face of the V and mill out a suitable pocket for the felt. If you don't have a milling machine and have manually cut and filed some aluminium to shape, you should be able to do the same thing by placing it in a drill press vise and pecking away a pocket. Milling would definitely be neater but nobody is going to see the end result. The outside can be profiled on a linisher to echo the profile of the brass felt holder, only larger.

Pete

Thanks Pete. I have a milling attachment for my lathe, but I think the cost-benefit analysis puts this project in the "not worth it" category. I've just been using my lathe and it's surprising how effective the way wipers are at spreading oil on the ways. Just put a good squirt on the top of each metal retainer and the oil runs through the gaps and into the felt.
Cheers,
Chris

[cba_melbourne]

.... I've just been using my lathe and it's surprising how effective the way wipers are at spreading oil on the ways. Just put a good squirt on the top of each metal retainer and the oil runs through the gaps and into the felt......

That has been my experience too. I can see no real advantage in an oil cup and reservoir within the saddle. Certainly not on a simple hobbylathe that is fitted with felt wipers. Just replace those old felts that have completely clogged up with the wax like residues of dried old oil and coolant over the last 20 years. A clean felt will soak up oil and keep spreading it as a thin oil film all day long.

Regularly wash out the felts once a month or so, and make it a habit to brush the ways clean whilst working: time spent doing this is IMHO much more effective than time spent adding oil cups to a saddle (a saddle design that has been working very well with just way felts, for nearly 100 years). Chris

[Pete F]

Too little lubrication is a bad thing, however too much lubrication can, in many instances, be equally damaging, albeit for quite different reasons. It's a balancing act with a compromise between the two extremes being sought. Reading back through this thread it was argued that having too much lubrication on the ways, especially way lube containing tackifiers, tends to hold swarf and other abrasives (that are found in the workshop environment) on the ways and that will contribute to wear. I think it's a valid argument too. I also wipe down my ways religiously and use a small brush to paint lube on them before moving the saddle ... if possible, and that's the catch.

The idea of people installing oilers within their saddles, tailstock, etc, is that it provides enough lubrication to slide correctly with minimum friction and wear, while not providing excess lubricant that will tend to attract and hold particles and contribute to wear ie it automatically finds that compromise mentioned above. Furthermore, the felt pads that are controlling the oil in this example of oiler further prevent any possibility of abrasive particles finding their way to the bearing surfaces, and I can't see that being a bad idea at all, the standard way felts are quite thin and it wouldn't take too much to get past them.

So that's the reason behind them, now whether it's worth a person's time to make them is not for me to say. I know of a number of people who are very accomplished machinists and who's opinions and work I admire who have installed oilers on their lathes' saddles and they certainly consider them a valuable addition. I'm not sure if I will get a chance to make any up after this trip, but if it took me more than a couple of hours to make a set up I'd definitely be thinking it's time to start considering an alternative past-time. Other's milage may, however, be completely different.

Pete

[jack620]

If you do make some Pete, be sure to post pics.

[Pete F]

I was hoping to whip some up this afternoon, but the VFD on my lathe was not reaching full speed and it took some time to track down why. I'm not sure now when I'll get a chance to make some, I'm as busy as heck at present, but will definitely throw pictures up when I do.

Getting back to the original topic. The way oil sent over from the US doesn't appear to have tackifiers in it. I had been using chain and bar oil on my machines' ways. The way oil provides a MUCH lighter movement compared to what I had been using, especially on the saddle. Indeed it's quite surprising what a difference it made. Now how much is due to not having tackifiers for example I can't say. I suspect however tackifiers have a large influence on the feeling of how much resistance is felt. I'm now very curious to see how it goes in the little surface grinder. As that is a manual machine I found the type of oil I used made a huge difference to the effort required to traverse the table (chain and bar oil for example clearly doesn't work, and quite a lightweight oil is needed). While it's early days, I've been pleasantly surprised so far, and given the price landed, think it was worth the purchase.

Pete

[forp]

I use Houghton Sta-Put 68 for slideway its very good, the ways are always covered with oil. Heavy chips which falls on the slideways carry away the oils that's when I reapply the oil. 5L last many years.