Farm Forestry Specialist

[Stu70]

Hi All
I'm a forester with a special interest in farm forestry for commercial wood production and aesthetics. My area of expertise is Blackwood and Yellow stringybark, plus a few other species. I've worked in Tassie for over 10 years and have undertaken extensive surveys of plantations throughout Tas, NZ and Vic. I've produced the only example of successful Blackwood silviculture in Australia and the first to have established Yellow stringbark in NW Tassie, a species with a lot of potential that few know much about as a plantation species, with the exception of the Kiwis and a handful of people in Vic. I have a different approach to tree growing and management to other foresters and I'm not willing to waste peoples time and money if there is any doubt regarding success. I'm currently living in Melb and willing to travel but restrict myself to high rainfall areas (800mm+), eg: Otways, ranges NE of Melb, South Gippsland, Tassie. If anyone is interested in exploring the potential of specialty farm plantations of 1 acre plus, whether for commercial or aesthetic purposes, let me know.

259332259333

Above photos are of 15 year old plantation Blackwood, tree height 15m+, ~23cm diam, pruned to 6.5m. This can be replicated on any site with suitable rainfall, soil and climate.

[MAPLEMAN]

To me,it comes as no surprise that Blackwood (melanoxylon) would perform well in a plantations,as it does seem to occur naturally in pure stands.Where i live in Sth East Queensland(near Belthorpe range),it grows in almost pure stands,although the species does at times have a 'branchy' habit.Would do really well as an underplanted species in certain areas too i reckon..regular prunning would be an imperative,to achieve a commercial quality bole..in fact,the Blackwood growing around this provenance is producing timber of high quality..it is a marvellous timber..:2tsup: MM

[Stu70]

G'day Mapleman
Blackwood can often be seen growing in pure stands, yet form is nearly always poor with retained branch stubs resulting in little if any recoverable clearwood. As a single species it's slow at self thinning, resulting in slow diameter growth. I've seen successful examples of pure Blackwood stands in NZ, planted at 2500 stems/ha and thinned to 150-200 stems/ha by age 10. Problem with this approach is the huge task of thinning which makes the economics questionable while form pruning and clearwood pruning is still required. As an underplanted species, form is often very good due to low light levels. However, diameter growth will be very slow due to the competition. Stocking rates need to be 150-200 stems/ha with no other competition to produce commercially viable stands.

[MAPLEMAN]

G'day Mapleman
Blackwood can often be seen growing in pure stands, yet form is nearly always poor with retained branch stubs resulting in little if any recoverable clearwood. As a single species it's slow at self thinning, resulting in slow diameter growth. I've seen successful examples of pure Blackwood stands in NZ, planted at 2500 stems/ha and thinned to 150-200 stems/ha by age 10. Problem with this approach is the huge task of thinning which makes the economics questionable while form pruning and clearwood pruning is still required. As an underplanted species, form is often very good due to low light levels. However, diameter growth will be very slow due to the competition. Stocking rates need to be 150-200 stems/ha with no other competition to produce commercially viable stands.Hi Stu 70..thanks for sharing ..i never knew that there were plantations of it growing in N.Z...great to hear they are performing well..curious as to where you are sourcing your seedstock,also,is genetic science helping to improve growing form?,as you say,form can be poor.Would love as much info you can provide...very interesting stuff..Cheers MM :2tsup:

[Stu70]

Blackwood is an interesting species. There have been a number of provenance trials, mostly in NZ. Low elevation NW Tassie seedlots show the best form and growth but advantage is relatively small. NZ foresters took seed from the best formed Blackwood of NW Tassie back in the late 50s and yet the form in plantations was no better than seed from trees of poor form. The over-riding factor to good form is the environment (surrounding vegetation) that influences tree growth and branching habit. Science / tree growers are making a start to producing plantation stock with respect to wood quality. There are growers in NZ that have produced clonal stock with selections based upon wood colour and density. It's only a matter of time before someone clones a truly genetic fiddleback Blackwood - they do exist but are rare.

[shedbound]

I've often wondered about planting out a few acres of blackwood for the kids retiement. I know they do grow great around here but I think my particular site would be unsuitable as it does cop a lot of wind, and is open to the north.

[MAPLEMAN]

- they do exist but are rare.So true....its a joy to mill one though :rolleyes:..MM :2tsup:

[shedbound]

I dream nighlty of finding that blackwood with intense fiddle. :C

[Stu70]

G'day Shedbound
Your right, Blackwood hates wind when young and severely reduces height growth and form. However, it can be fixed with a mixture of faster growing eucs to provide shelter. The photos are from a site that is subject to strong westerly winds, yet growth and form has not been impeded due to shelter. The eucs were stem injected to cause slow death from age 6-10 and has worked beautifully, releasing the Blackwood.

[shedbound]

G'day Stu, just as a matter of interest can one get insurance on a plantation, and would the cost of this make it unsustainable on a small scale?

[Stu70]

Insurance for a small scale plantation is not worth the expense. Fire and wind are the two risks. I've seen Blackwood recover from mild fires and in a well managed plantation I'd suggest the risk is very small. In a forest setting there is considerable fuel from the ground up, often with branch and bark accumulation around the base of trees. What kills trees is a heat source of some duration such that the cambium layer (the layer of cells between the bark and sapwood, the growing part of the stem) is killed. In a well managed plantation setting established on previously cleared land there will be grass but very little other fuel (thinned trees can be removed for firewood). Any ground fire would be insufficient to kill the cambium layer. A crown fire could occur if there was native forest adjacent to enable spread but such conditions are relatively rare. I've seen some Blackwood recover from burnt crowns while others haven't. Variation in survival is a combination of ground fuels and fire intensity, plus natural variation between trees. Wind damage (windthrow) in plantations can be virtually eliminated by proper management. Windthrow occurs when plantations are thinned to late, resulting in tall skinny trees that become susceptible to strong winds. Can't give any guarantees against tornadoes though.

[shedbound]

Thanks for the in depth reply Stu:2tsup:

[timboz]

G'day Stu 70,

You are quite right about provenance selection for NZ but extensive trials conducted in sub-tropical China clearly demonstrate the superiority of Sunshine Coast provenances for the climate of Mapleman and myself up here. It is a knockout timber - milling logs is like a lucky dip where you can't lose, rather just get a less stunning result! When you say Yellow Stringy Stu, are you talking E. acmenoides or a 'southern' Yellow Stringy?

Timboz:U

[Stu70]

G'day Timboz
You're right, northern Aust provenances perform well in China, southern don't. By the way, not too many people would know that, have you had anything to do with the Blackwod Industry Group (BIG) or been reading RIRDC publications / internet search from BIG? Always use a local provenance or if not, then a provenance from as similar a climate (temp, elevation, frost) as possible.
My reference to Yellow Stringy is E. muelleriana from southern NSW and VIC - great species attributes for farm forestry.

[timboz]

G'day again Stu70,

Yes I have read the RIRDC publications and anything else I can get my hands on about the perplexing buggers that they are. They grow like the clappers up here but tend to senesce or get belted by borers at 50-60cm d.b.h if your lucky. Have seen 80cm boles (1.5m) rarely. I have a 25 ha property with around 15ha of regenerating blackwood but I missed my chance to treat most of it silviculturally as I was blissfully ignorant of it as a timber species until too late. I am going to start some plantations soon though and gradually mill up the existing trees as they start to lose vigor.

Timboz:U

[Stu70]

G'day again Timboz

Without knowing your area I'm going to have a stab at why they are getting belted by the borers (we get them down here too, no doubt different buggers though). Measure the basal area of your blackwood forest. I'm using figures that I know are relevant for blackwood to Tas, Vic and NZ. All species have their biological limits and I suspect it doesn't differ greatly between regions. Below a basal area of ~15 there isn't a great deal of competition between trees. Between 15 and 25 the competition is setting in. 25-35 and the competition is high and tree stress at times of dry conditions can make them vulnerable to pests and diseases. 35-45 and tree-tree competition is severe, self thinning is setting in and the bugs will have a ball if the trees are stressed. A basal area of 45 is the typical limit for blackwood. It can go above this but only on very high quality sites. Highest I know of is a basal area of 75, measured in a 96 year old stand of pure blackwood in NZ. The highest basal area ever measured in native forest in Tas is 60.

Good news to hear you are going to have a go at some plantations. Keep the final stocking to 150-200 sph, should be thinned to this stocking by age 10-15 at the latest and keep an eye on the basal area. Best of luck.

[timboz]

Thanks for the info Stu. I was aware of the competition effects and I certainly have too much basal area but as I'm sure Mapleman will also attest, even paddock grown trees succumb prematurely up here. Genetics ??

Timboz :U

[Stu70]

Timboz, genetics may well be a contributing factor. Dry conditions can also be significant. Do you have dry seasonal conditions? Any plantation development should be on lower slopes and along gullies to take advantage of soil moisture. Avoid midslopes and particularly ridgelines. As a species blackwood love moist soil conditions but never plant in swampy ground. The 'blackwood swamps' of NW Tas are a misconception. These 'swamps' are seasonally saturated and relatively dry for a few months over late summer /early autumn. During winter and spring the soil water is moving horizontally through the soil profile, keeping the root systems oxygenated. People have made the mistake of planting in stagnant swamps and the results are terrible.

Stu

[timboz]

Yes we do have a dry spring approx 120mm, but the senescence occurs even in 'perfect' growing conditions - almost an analogue of Smithton but less swampy and excellent moisture retention through the 'dry'. The largest specimen with a 4m plus bole that I have ever measured up here was 64cm dbh, 7m bole and in definite decline. A case of 'the candle that burns brightest burns briefest' perhaps.

Timboz:U

[dadpad]

Older thread I know.

Dry periods over summer will cause stress for melanoxyn and thus subject them to borer attack. An idea i had that might be researchable is high boron additions. Boron being a weak insecticide it may have some deterent effect.
Annual rainfall and rainfall spread over the year needs to be considered ie if only 10% of rainfall occurs over summer you will struggle to grow blackwoods. Annual rainfall needs to be around 1000mm per year

I tried blackwoods, silver wattle and black wattle with a nurse crop of E globulose and E Nitens. Planted on cleared land, ripped and mounded and distributed across the land profile which included a seasonal creekline Still have the eucs but the acacia are a washout.

I planted a bunch of yellow stringy and others for a private plantation company over in gippsland. definite potential there.

I like sugar gum and ironbark (struggling with form on those) for the drier areas of Victoria, frost free locations higher on a hill side seem good for spotted gum but you might need to form prune if frost affects the site.

[MAI]

[QUOTE=dadpad;1671941]Older thread I know.

Dry periods over summer will cause stress for melanoxyn and thus subject them to borer attack. An idea i had that might be researchable is high boron additions. Boron being a weak insecticide it may have some deterent effect.
Annual rainfall and rainfall spread over the year needs to be considered ie if only 10% of rainfall occurs over summer you will struggle to grow blackwoods. Annual rainfall needs to be around 1000mm per year

I tried blackwoods, silver wattle and black wattle with a nurse crop of E globulose and E Nitens. Planted on cleared land, ripped and mounded and distributed across the land profile which included a seasonal creekline Still have the eucs but the acacia are a washout.

QUOTE]

I've recently bought some land in Gippsland on which I intend to plant various trees for multiple objectives including eventual harvest for some. There's a bunch of trees been planted already including various eucs and acacias including silver wattle and blackwood. While looking for this property I've wandered around a lot of soggy land in South Gipps. One way to tell if the property has a good moisture regime is to examine any remnant silver wattles and blackwood. If they're looking healthy there's a good chance that the rainfall is good. If they're obviously riddled with borer this is a warning sign.

Another point worth mentioning is the superb form on many of these silver wattle and blackwoods when they grow in a gully; ideally with a SE aspect. I've seen both species gun barrel straight with minimal branching before the crown. At what stage they've self-pruned would be of interest to give some insight into the quantity of clearwood over branch stub. Silver wattle grow very quickly in the right conditions. A 40-50cm DBH butt log in under 20 years is achievable. And it's a lovely timber.

What seed were you using for the acacia plantings you mention? I'm not sure if there are any BW and SW provenances with good growth, form etc available for a Sth Gipps site or if I should collect some seed.

[MAI]

Hi All
I've produced the only example of successful Blackwood silviculture in Australia and the first to have established Yellow stringbark in NW Tassie, a species with a lot of potential that few know much about as a plantation species, with the exception of the Kiwis and a handful of people in Vic.


What sort of growth rates are you seeing from the yellow stringybark? That's a species I'm considering planting. And what seed provenance do you use for blackwood plantings in Sth Gipps and the Otways?

[dadpad]

What seed were you using for the acacia plantings you mention? I'm not sure if there are any BW and SW provenances with good growth, form etc available for a Sth Gipps site or if I should collect some seed.

Smithton Tas for the blackwoods (A. mealnoxon), Black hill reserve Kynton Vic for the blackwattle (A Mearnsii). I believe the seed was sources from CSIRO seed bank. I planted a few local silver wattles as well but they went the same way all the acacias did. Looked good for about 5 or 8 years then kaput.
Definitely worth trying acacias in high rainfall country though.
A lot has been learned since i planted.

If you are considering planting trees around gippsland I'd talk definitely to a consultant. The economics of harvesting for commercial production will play a large role in how and what you plant. Most harvesting contractors won't look at anything under 10 Ha. and if mixed species that makes it all the more difficult. Certainly do-able but not as easy as it may seem. Soil needs to be examined for trace elements like boron and copper deficiency, soil depth, slope, to rip or not to rip.

[Stu70]

G’day Dadpad and MAI, just catching up on a few of your posts.

With respect to site, rainfall etc. Blackwood does require ~1000mm+ for good growth and I wouldn’t recommend sites with much less. Areas such as south Gippy with this sort of rainfall will sustain good growth and healthy trees provided stocking and management is appropriate. Some years will see low summer rainfall (eg:10% or less of the annual) but it will not cause problems unless stockings are too high. I’ve seen it all too often, inappropriate stockings and growers wondering where it all went wrong or being blind to troubles down the track.

Globulus and nitens can be very effective nurse crops – the photos attached to my original post show blackwood grown with nitens as the nurse crop. To be effective they must be managed properly. If you haven’t started controlling / thinning the eucs by age 6 at the latest then you are heading for major trouble. As mentioned, gullies are where blackwood of good form can often be found. This is largely attributable to the light environment more than anything else. Hence the use of faster growing eucs to alter the light environment as well as the provision of wind protection. But remember, once the blackwood has formed a straight stem of ~6m with the help of form pruning (this should be by age 5-6 on good sites) then the nurse crop has done its job, beyond this it starts to become a threat.

Site prep – I’ve often seen ripping undertaken when it’s not necessary. Site location, area, soil type / profile and history of site use will determine whether ripping is needed or not. Soil nutrients – trace elements such as copper and boron may occasionally be warranted at establishment. Mid rotation fertilizing is rarely worth it economically and if needed then I’d suggest either the site and/or species is in question. I’ve seen large pits dug to assess soil profiles with the expense of moving heavy machinery on site to do so – 95% of the time it’s not warranted. Site quality can usually be determined by looking at remnant native vegetation, it says more than anything.

Be careful with wattles as potential weeds, the seed is long lived and if introduced to an area where not native then it may create an issue long-term. Blackwood not such an issue as it’s common in high rainfall areas but silver wattle isn’t usually as wide spread while black wattle is typically a native in drier locations. Personally I wouldn’t bother with black wattle for this reason.

I would recommend low elevation NW Tassie (Smithton) seed for blackwood but don’t expect it to dramatically outperform seed collected from local areas, so long as it’s collected from a high rainfall area (eg: south Gippy and Otways). Thereare also some who argue that seed from other localities shouldn’t be introduced into new areas due to genetic pollution – not something I agree with but it has been raised as a potential issue.

Don’t worry about typical harvest contractors not considering anything less than 10ha. A few acres of well managed blackwood planted now will be a valuable resource in 35-40 years time. As someone who has worked in NW Tassie (wheremost blackwood is sourced from) I can assure you native forest harvesting isn’t going to last that long. Small areas can be effectively harvested with a chainsaw and farm tractor. Longish rotations such as this add amenity value and commercial value to properties in the shorter term.

With regard to yellow stringy growth rates, they’re not bad. I planted a mixture of YS and nitens in NW Tassie and to age 10 the YS wasn’t far behind. On a good site you can expect up to 1.5m height growth / year. With appropriate stocking 50-60cm diameter sawlogs can be grown within 25-30 years. Unlike nitens, wood quality of YS is excellent from trees this young.

MAI, if you require assistance I can help. I’ve seen too many tree growers, professionally trained and amateur alike, make all number of mistakes. Whether you’re after a single species plantation or a mixture I have the knowledge and experience to get things right first time. Problem with trees is the time frame – you only get one chance to get it right.

[dadpad]

Almost all sites in the original FFORNE plantings required boron. So I'm not sure i agree with the word "occasionally". Almost all sites I worked on needed boron and those that didn't get get it were poor form, including radiata. Boron seems especially important on old cropping land where P is likely to have been heavily applied. Certainly on my site the Blue gums had poor form until i applied 40g ulexite/tree

With nitens fertilising appears to assist in keeping branch sizes small. Branch size becomes important when you prune 150 a day for a living.

I'd like to see some black wattle trialed for timber in high rainfall. It is lovely timber but not suitable in my 750mm rainfall. I doubt it would be any good in a low rainfall plantation.

[Timless Timber]

Many species can be grown in a plantation if your determined enough, and throw lots of $ at the project.

The thing is at the end of the day to be profitable the tree itself has to fit an economic model the way P radiata & pinaster do in order to be viable long term.

They are grown successfully in plantations because they fit an economic model that returns a final profit at years 32 on when the effect of compounding interest is factored in over such a long time span. The reason that P species fit the model is that the first thinning's bring a small cash injection when sold as "Xmas trees" by the boy scouts and this cash injection slightly offsets the compounding effect of interest early in the project - then second thinning's go to chip for again another cash injection part way thru the growing cycle to again offset the compounding effect of interest, such that when harvest finally arrives, after all the fertilizing and high pruning etc - you end up with a profit from your venture from your peeler & sawn lumber logs etc.

If Blackwood or any other species doesn't fit an economic model that generates a profit at the end good luck getting finance to establish and maintain it to maturity.

The farm forestry industry generally in Australia has a poor record financially which is why so many are leery now of investing in it.

Any idiot can grow a tree - it takes a clever idiot to grow one and make a profit doing it.

Established Pines - when thinned and high pruned in say HRFRB's can be suitable for grazing leases for example where any nutrients from expensive fertilizer that aren't uptaken by the trees roots initially get turned into palatable grass for livestock, that then turn that grass back into - you guessed it, more (free) fertilizer for the trees!.

Its these aspects that make the species suit the economic model...

If site costs are too high due to incline (roading construction and maintenance & skyline logging for e.g.) then even Pine species can be risky - also in such lengthy investment periods...if interest rates do as they have done before and go skywards of 17 - 20% then forget the capital costs of thinning and high pruning.

So the question really - as mush as the silviculture aspects is economic...

What returns are there during the growing period (thinnings) to offset the monster of compounding interest which will quickly kill most plantation projects if not managed?

What if interest rates skyrocket - will you still have the numbers for the bank to lend the capital to maintain the plantation?

Can you graze livestock in the plantation to help control fire risk and add free fertilizer?

I fail to see how Blackwood fits a successful economic model myself - but it may be possible.

Experiece here with E Globulous shows better results at 1750 SPH plantings, Pine sp yes at 2250 sph - but I'd suggest Blackwood might do better at 1750 sph myself in 1000mm & + environments.

It likely CAN be done - but does it pay? - that's the Bob and Dolly Dyer, BP Pick-A-Box, $64,000 question that hasn't been answered.

Wouldn't a better option be to manage a natural production forest of Blackwood well for good commercial returns, and let nature do what it does best - grow the damn trees?

We can put a man on the moon - but lets face it - we can't make it pay, which is why no ones been back!.

Same same with Blackwood probably.

Show me how the numbers stack up....then we talk the silvicultural practices required to make it happen.

An awfull lotta tree plantation investors have lost an awfull lot of $ in recent years...in Australia and they have a right now to be mighty skeptical IMHO... and not without good reason.

Blackwoods a nice timber but equally so are many others.

No ones planting Huon Pine in plantations for a reason.... (hint - it's economic & related to length of time before a return on investment) and that's because it doesn't fit any successful economic model for a plantation - yet ts one of the most highly sought after timbers in Oz for boat building & fine furniture etc.

Not saying Blackwood can't be done, but I'd want to see the numbers stack up first.

My 2c.

[Stu70]

Almost all sites in the original FFORNE plantings required boron. So I'm not sure i agree with the word "occasionally". Almost all sites I worked on needed boron and those that didn't get get it were poor form, including radiata. Boron seems especially important on old cropping land where P is likely to have been heavily applied. Certainly on my site the Blue gums had poor form until i applied 40g ulexite/tree

With nitens fertilising appears to assist in keeping branch sizes small. Branch size becomes important when you prune 150 a day for a living.

I'd like to see some black wattle trialed for timber in high rainfall. It is lovely timber but not suitable in my 750mm rainfall. I doubt it would be any good in a low rainfall plantation.

G'day Dadpad

Must admit I'm not familiar with the soils of NE Vic where the FFORNE plantings are located. I am familiar with the basalt soils of high rainfall areas of TAS, south Gippsland and the Otways. These are the high quality sites I'm referring to where blackwood should be grown. I'm not one to advocate blackwood for planting on good agricultural areas that can be cropped, it should be planted in gullies and steeper areas that arguably should never have been cleared in the first place. You have given me reason to do a bit more research into Boron for lower quality soils but blackwood will always need form pruning and manipulation of the light environment / wind protection when young to produce excellent form.

I agree black wattle can produce excellent timber and has real potential in high rainfall areas but I do have some reservations about its potential as an introduced weed species. Having said that the seed of wattles is not wind or bird dispersed so it would remain a potential weed species to the site it's introduced to.

[Stu70]

Myself and many others have shown that blackwood can provide positive economic returns, even on 40 year rotations with no cash flows from thinnings early in the rotation. There is published info out there. Species like blackwood are ideal for small scale forestry plantings that are integrated into the agricultural environment, not as a broad scale replacement like the disastrous blue gum industry. I've been to NZ and visited some of their leading farm foresters who are making as much as 50% of their annual income from the harvest of a few ha each year. They're growing pines, macrocarpa, eucs, blackwood and many others. I know of NZ grown blackwood that's gone into furniture, floors, veneers and even musical instruments. Growers are cloning trees based on wood quality and I'm sure it's only a matter of time before a fiddleback is cloned, the value of which would be exceptional.


I don't wish to be disrespectful but I do question many of your comments.

[Timless Timber]

So the question really - as mush as the silviculture aspects is economic...

What returns are there during the growing period (thinnings) to offset the monster of compounding interest which will quickly kill most plantation projects if not managed?

What if interest rates skyrocket - will you still have the numbers for the bank to lend the capital to maintain the plantation?

Can you graze livestock in the plantation to help control fire risk and add free fertilizer?

I fail to see how Blackwood fits a successful economic model myself - but it may be possible.

Experiece here with E Globulous shows better results at 1750 SPH plantings, Pine sp yes at 2250 sph - but I'd suggest Blackwood might do better at 1750 sph myself in 1000mm & + environments.

It likely CAN be done - but does it pay? - that's the Bob and Dolly Dyer, BP Pick-A-Box, $64,000 question that hasn't been answered.

Wouldn't a better option be to manage a natural production forest of Blackwood well for good commercial returns, and let nature do what it does best - grow the damn trees?

We can put a man on the moon - but lets face it - we can't make it pay, which is why no ones been back!.

Same same with Blackwood probably.

Show me how the numbers stack up....then we talk the silvicultural practices required to make it happen.

"
Question my comments?

Maybe try answering some of my questions... I've gone to the trouble of reminding you of them. :wink:

Maybe there's a difference between being a practicing forester and a theoretical one. :)

[Stu70]

There was a time when the following example was considered a great concept that originated in NZ and the idea then taken up by growers in Tasmania. Plant 2-3 rows of Radiata pine close together with wide bays of 8-12 meters between for pasture production. Prune and thin the pines to ~200sph and graze underneath. The outcome was disastrous. Pasture production was OK for the first 5-8 years until shading altered pasture species composition and feed quality to the point where it was virtually of no value. The pines developed huge branches and diameter growth was so fast that timber quality was exceptionally poor. The idea has since been abandoned.

To maintain pasture quality tree stocking needs to be very low. This excludes pines for reasons of timber quality as explained. Might be possible with say blue gum at stockings of ~50sph where fast diameter growth is not detrimental to wood quality in the pruned butt log. Problem is volume production suffers considerably at such low stockings and pasture quality is still reduced later in the rotation. Best value of such a system is shelter provision during periods of extreme heat and cold. However, best productivity is either 100% grazing or 100% tree growing, agroforestry as described above will lower overall productivity. To put it simply, grow quality grass where best suited and grow trees as well managed plantations where best integrated into the agricultural landscape.

Globulus shows best results at 1750 sph - for what purpose? The statement is meaningless without indicating for what regime. Pulpwood? Stockings at this level only results in reduced diameter at harvest time (around peak MAI) compared to 800-1000sph with no significant gain in total volume production. The extra cost of seedlings and planting will reduce Internal Rate of Return (IRR), with reduced stumpage at time of harvest due to increased harvest costs. Alternatively, try and maintain stumpage and put the pressure on contractors - I’ve seen contactors going broke, just burning diesel and time to process small diameter pulpwood trees.

What about a sawlog regime with globulus? If you want to grow quality euc sawlog in plantations then low final stockings are the way to go, in the order of 150-200sph at most. If planted at 1750 sph then you have a lot of non-commercial thinning to undertake. Or perhaps you would suggest waiting for a commercial thinning, in which case you will ruin your sawlog production through the development of excessive growth stress and tension wood as a result of growing trees with a high height to diameter ratio. Likewise, you’re saying 2250 sph for pine but for what regime? I know of the regime implemented by ForestryTasmania in NE Tas to control branch size and provide multiple commercial thinnings for sawlog mid rotation, planted at 1600 sph. They produce excellent structural pine from this regime. Higher stockings in the order you’re talking only reduces diameter, increases harvest costs per cubic meter and increases stand instability post thinning. I’m not aware of any significant growers, whether large industrials or switched on farm foresters, who establish stockings at the level you are talking. As for blackwood at 1750 sph I can only hope you’re talking about initial stocking and not final. What experience do you have with blackwood?

As for the economics and numbers, if you are a forester with an understanding of the economics then you would know that this is not the place to present such info. It can be somewhat detailed and subject to a fair degree of interpretation. For example, what discount rate to apply, of which there is no definitive answer but will depend upon the level of risk that an individual applies. A business that purchases land solely for plantation development would apply a significantly higher discount rate to a project than would a farmer who decides to plant trees on a portion of their land that they do not consider suitable for intensive agriculture. As for the numbers regarding blackwood then do some research. You’ll find it on the internet. Why not ask Scion Research (formally the Forest Research Institute of NZ) who have published such info. If you doubt their numbers then let me know why. As for myself, I’ve done a considerable amount of economic modeling of plantation regimes for landowners in Tassie, including providing the economics of plantations and projected returns to the Taxation Department for the provision of obtaining Discretionary Rulings such that landowners could claim costs against personal income. To get such Rulings approved the economics needs to be verified by other foresters. I’ve successfully done this for pines and blackwood, both of which showed positive returns with non-commercial thinning and no returns until final harvest at ages 28 and 40 respectively.

As to whether I’m a practicing forester or a theoretical one I’ll let others judge. I’ve got some 15 years experience as a professional forester, successfully worked out the silviculture of blackwood and produced the results, successfully managed pine plantations, been heavily involved in the native forest blackwood resource of NW Tassie including clearfell harvest, regeneration and commercial thinning and for your interest, had a fair bit to do with Huon pine as well, including milling, drying and utilization. And I do know a thing or two about forest economics.

[MAI]

Grevillea robusta (Silky oak) do well in Melbourne and I've seen Toona ciliata growing well on several properties in the Otways. Any suggestions on where I could get seedlings for either of these? Ideally with some information on provenance and form.

And similarly with Casuarina cunninghamiana.

We could do with an agroforestry nursery in Sth Gipps that specialised in doing farm forestry trees with proven forestry provenances. There's a bunch of nurseries that do reveg seedlings but these aren't necessarily what you want for agroforestry purposes.

All this rain means with a bit of weed removal I should be able to do some spring planting.

[Stu70]

G'day MAI

Try contacting the Otway Agroforestry Network for info on those species. Silky oak and River She-oak are attractive timbers with stunning medullary rays. Don't quote me on it but I've heard She-oak can be troublesome when drying. I remember Red cedar being talked about briefly at a field day in the Otways several years ago. Interesting thing was that apparently there is not the problem of the cedar moth that causes tip die-back and subsequent poor form that creates sever problems up north. Would be interesting to know how those red cedars in the Otways are going now. It is a species that has a summer rainfall maximum and higher annual temperatures than we get down here. This often results in poor long-term growth and survival when species from up north are transferred down south. By all means have a go at planting a few species such as those above but don't plant any significant areas with such species. Your best bet for south gippy is blackwood and yellow stringy.

If you're going to plant this spring then get them in the ground asap. Personal experience has taught me that if you get them in the ground in late spring and there is an early on-set of dry conditions then growth will suffer dramatically. Good weed control is of cause essential.

[MAI]

G'day MAI

a/ Try contacting the Otway Agroforestry Network for info on those species.

b/ Would be interesting to know how those red cedars in the Otways are going now.

c/ Your best bet for south gippy is blackwood and yellow stringy.



Hi Stu,

Few comments:

a/ I'm after seedlings from known provenances ideally with farm forestry cred rather than just info.

b/ As I said in my earlier post they're doing well. The tip moth is in Vic but if the trees are far enough apart there's a geographical barrier to their finding individual plots. The RIRDC report on growing cedar also suggested that if they're grown in an environment that's more similar to their natural site conditions they'll do better with respect to tip moth than if they're grown in the middle of a paddock as a monoculture plantation under blazing sun. This could be described as not a surprising result.

c/ I'm reminded a bit of Rowan Reid saying that he was told 25 years ago that Mountain Ash was the only worthwhile plantation species in the Otways. BW and YS are both worthwhile candidates for planting in high rainfall areas in the Strezeleckis but there are a bunch of other species depending on the objectives and available micro-climates and aspects on the individual block. This is where farm forestry can differ from large-scale forestry as there is room for a wider range of outcomes and more differentiation on a site. Without going into too much detail I have an interesting mix of Warragul volcanic soil, some Strezelecki clay, south and south east facing slopes on gullies and a broad band of north facing slope. The 1750 Ecological Vegetation Class is Wet Forest. It would be an ideal site for Mountain ash but 60+ year rotation is too long. I need to be seeing some returns a bit quicker than that.

My current planting list is:

For the eucs: maculata, muelleriana, botryoides, globulus, nitens and bosistoana. And probably a few melliodora, tereticornis and some other boxes and ironbarks just to see how they go. I've heard that cladocalyx hasn't done so well in Gipps so 'twill be interesting to see how dryer country boxes do. I've been told that there are yellow boxes growing in some sites on cooler, wetter north-facing slopes of the Divide so if I can find a good provenance they might do OK. They're a good honey tree. (My wife is a beekeeper.) There's some spectacular ironbarks growing in Melbourne so on a north facing, well-drained slope see how they go.

Acacias: melanoxylon, dealbata and maybe mearnsii. With a number of other species such as implexa, elata and pycnantha for various purposes.

Other natives: some casuarinas, toona and Grevillea robusta as mentioned above with some banksias. I'd like to try satinwood as well.

Exotics: Pinus radiata, probably a few stone pines, some other nut trees, some poplars, sequoia, several quercus, some American black cherry if I can find some and probably some fruit trees on standard root-stock for craftwood.

The intention with this property is to make some money out of the wood while demonstrating integration of trees with other agriculture. If the worst comes to the worst I'll have an income from the land, firewood security and all going well some increase in land value.

There's no active email lists or similar covering farm forestry in Gipps that I'm aware of. (There's one or two covering more Landcare oriented activities.) Through various activities I've spoken to a number of farmers interested in farm forestry but who are unsure how to proceed. With an extraordinary wealth of Australian species and, of course, the many northern hemisphere species that grow well in Southern Vic we're blessed with choice for growing high value timber.

This forum could be a useful place to exchange information on what works, what doesn't, markets, suppliers, contractors etc

My two bob's worth

MAI

[MAI]

A/ There was a time when the following example was considered a great concept that originated in NZ and the idea then taken up by growers in Tasmania. Plant 2-3 rows of Radiata pine close together with wide bays of 8-12 meters between for pasture production. Prune and thin the pines to ~200sph and graze underneath. The outcome was disastrous. Pasture production was OK for the first 5-8 years until shading altered pasture species composition and feed quality to the point where it was virtually of no value. The pines developed huge branches and diameter growth was so fast that timber quality was exceptionally poor. The idea has since been abandoned.

B/ To maintain pasture quality tree stocking needs to be very low. This excludes pines for reasons of timber quality as explained. Might be possible with say blue gum at stockings of ~50sph where fast diameter growth is not detrimental to wood quality in the pruned butt log. Problem is volume production suffers considerably at such low stockings and pasture quality is still reduced later in the rotation. Best value of such a system is shelter provision during periods of extreme heat and cold. However, best productivity is either 100% grazing or 100% tree growing, agroforestry as described above will lower overall productivity. To put it simply, grow quality grass where best suited and grow trees as well managed plantations where best integrated into the agricultural landscape.



Hi Stu,

Couple of comments on the points above:

A/ Do you have any data on the wood quality from these fast grown pines? The Kiwis have been doing work on fast-growing, dense radiata. No argument that you would have problems with broccoli trees and the need for a lot of pruning but I wonder if the wood quality issue still applies.

B/ You might get lower total biomass production but if you're making a good quality sawlog (ie worth more) and getting some pasture benefit, reducing stock losses and seeing the livestock feed conversion ratio go up as the animals are using less metabolism to stay warm/cool the overall returns would be of interest. A number of studies here and overseas show positive returns for mixed systems. With respect to good quality bluegum, I've been told that there's a market around Daylesford for locally grown bluegum for use in construction. $1000-1500/m3 for sawn, dried timber was mentioned. The market is people who want to use wood from local sources that they regard as sustainable. Similar niche markets may exist elsewhere

MAI

[MAI]

This site might be of interest to anyone considering growing blackwoods.

Tasmanian Blackwood Growers Cooperative | Sustainable and profitable plantation blackwood for the future. (http://blackwoodgrowers.com.au/)

I've had some informative and entertaining discussions with Gordon who I think could fairly be described as passionate on this topic.

He makes a very good point that farm growers often start with the best intentions but find it hard to keep up with the pruning and thinning due to other demands on their time. A lower initial stocking rate reduces this load.

I'm thinking about 4-500 stems per hectare for the blackwoods initially with good wind protection. (Gordon suggests around 200.) Have to see how I go with the pruning and thinning.

MAI

[Stu70]

G'day MAI

I don't want to sound negative but I know Gordon reasonably well and he is totally off the mark with his idea of planting only 200 blackwood / ha for commercial plantations. There are no such examples in existence other than his very small planting that is only some 6 years of age (way too early to determine long term success and very site specific). I've personally surveyed blackwood plantations throughout Tassie, been to NZ and observed all their major blackwood trials and seen numerous blackwood trial sites throughout Vic.

If you want to produce a quality stand of blackwood then plant 800 sph with the aim of a final stocking of 200 stems/ha at most. If you are worried about the number of trees I am suggesting then concentrate on smaller areas to start with. All the stands in NZ and elsewhere that have produced quality results started with a selection ratio of at least4:1.

With regards to high density Radiata and low stockings I'm not aware of it happening. There are breeding programs for improved density but what has not been overcome is the density gradient that occurs with age (it can be reduced a little with clones but offset is only a few years). The first 10 years growth is referred to as the juvenile core, with wood quality increasing with age. Once timber is formed it doesn't improve, the increase in wood quality only occurs in the new growth rings. As I mentioned, the idea of grazing under pruned Radiata has been abandoned and low stocking / fast growth is very detrimental to wood quality of Radiata.


Growing arange of species is worthwhile and commendable, particularly in higher rainfall zones. You’ll find that majority of farm forestry trials throughout Victoria have been established in the lower rainfall zones with poorer quality soils. This is a shame, as results from lower rainfall areas do not reflect species performance at better quality sites. Blackwood is an example. Unsurprisingly, provenances from lower rainfall zones have often performed better in trials at low rainfall sites. However, such provenances are unlikely to perform at higher rainfall zones in the long-term. I am particularly critical of some forestry departments for a lack of foresight. To me it is a no-brainer. Just because a species occurs in an area doesn’t imply it can be commercially grown at that locality. Blackwood is a classic example. While planted in heaps of trials in low rainfall zones, large commercial Blackwood is only sourced from high rainfall zones. It’s a shame that some decent trials were never established in higher rainfall zones in Victoria to start with (it’s largely thanks to the work of the NZers that we have such good info about Blackwood provenances). Unfortunately, there is little information out there regarding provenance performance of many species in higher rainfall zones. You’re best bet is try and touch based with growers in higher rainfall zones that have planted alternative species such as C.cunninghamii to gain info.

Same goes for those that advocated Mountain Ash as the only species for high rainfall areas such as the Otways. I’ve been frustrated over the years with foresters who are driven by volume production. I’ve worked for organizations that have established eucalypt plantations that they perceive must have a commercial return from thinning to be viable, only to compromise their sawlog potential when markets for thinnings have not materialised, or not achieved positive cashflows from thinnings and sent contractors broke in the process. In my opinion, if you want to grow commercial sawlogs then achieve that objective and don’t let early cash flow become the over-riding factor. As far as I’m concerned, quality is a better objective than quantity.

Some information you may find interesting. I’ve learnt more from farm foresters I’ve met in New Zealand than anyone I’ve met in Australia. Some of the best farm foresters know far more about trees than professional foresters. A number of NZ farm foresters and a few professional foresters realized what it took to grow quality eucalypt sawlogs some time ago. Species such as young plantation Mountain Ash were found to have significant drying issues due to internal checking, which has proven to be even worse in E.nitens. In NZ they have also largely abandoned eucalypts from the sub-genus symphyomyrtus (species such as E.saligna and E.botryoides) due to pests and diseases that have affected health and survival, where as species from the sub-genus monocalyptus tend to be more resilient to pests and diseases.

The ash species are monocalypts but can suffer from growth stress if stockings are too high and have drying issues as mentioned. Of the ash species, E.fastigata has been found to have the best milling and drying characteristics and has good cold / frost tolerance and is a preferred species to E.nitens. However, the form isn’t as good so higher initial stockings are preferable to allow greater selection.

Another group from the monocalypts is the stringybarks, including E.muelleriana (Yellow Stringy). I’m still talking NZ where growth rates tend to be higher than we get here, but I’ve seen YS to 80cm at age 26 and photos of trees in excess of 100cm diameter by age early 40s. These sort of growth rates are only achievable at low stockings and timber quality is excellent. The most stable timber from eucs is when they are quarter sawn. From experience this means logs with an underbark diameter of 40cm+ at the small end, at breast height this means 60cm+diameter trees when pruned to ~6m. All too often I’ve seen pruned euc plantations with final stockings of 300+ stems / ha which is inappropriate – basically a Radiata pine regime applied to eucs. Keep your pruned stocking to 200 stems / ha at most (with relatively even spacing) to enable sufficient diameter growth by age 25-30. Don’t be fixated on any commercial thinning, stocking should be thinned to final pruned stems by age 6-10 depending on site and initial stocking.

While YS can’t match the ash group for growth rates, it has a number of characteristics I prefer. Wood density is significantly higher at a young age than the ashes and the gradient of density increase with age isn’t as steep, hence growth stress is not as significant, improving sawn recovery. Drying degrade (internal checking) can be significant in the ashes as mentioned, particularly E.nitens. YS doesn’t share this problem – this I believe is due to the higher density of the wood at a young age. Durability of YS is far better than the ash group and can be used for external applications such as decking and cladding with longer service life. Timber strength and surface hardness is better than the ashes. Sapwood of YS is immune to lyctus borers so doesn’t need treating. Heartwood of YS is immune to termites. Another advantage is its ability to cope with fire. The ashes are very susceptible to fire (easily killed) while YS has proven ability to rebound even following severe fire and complete crown removal. As I mentioned in a previous post, a pruned plantation with long grass underneath will not suffer from timber degrade as the fire is quick moving and heat will not penetrate the bark and damage the underlying cambium layer. Should a fire go through a pruned plantation as a crown fire then the ashes are cactus while YS will rebound.

Aside fromYS I am also a fan of Spotted Gum (C.maculata). Timber quality is better than YS and it will cope with drier sites. However, it can’t match YS for growth rates in higher rainfall sites and isn’t as frost tolerant (keeping in mind that YS can tolerate mild frosts at best). The one species that will grow as fast as the ashes in high rainfall areas, produce high density timber and can be sawn and may be successfully dried is E.globulus. However, it can be susceptible to tension wood formation which will certainly affect drying and recovery. Tension wood can be controlled with silviculture by early non-commercial thinning to final pruned stockings, but I would recommend 150stems/ha at most with even spacing. Pruned stems close together (eg: 5 metersor less as a guide) will result in unbalanced crowns, another significant causeof tension wood formation.

Only my opinion, but personally I would concentrate on the following species for high rainfall areas with good soils. Blackwood for small areas such as steep slopes and gullies that are sheltered. YS for lower valleys and mid slopes. Maculata for drier ridges and exposed areas where YS would suffer. Fastigata for cold high elevation sites or areas subject to heavy frost. A mixture of YS and Blackwood can be done but stocking needs to be lowered. Globulus probably worth a go but be wary of tension wood and not for frosty sites. Another I would grow is a cypress called Ovensii. Redwood has potential and a range of species is always worth trialling but if wood production for commercial return is the aim then concentrate on a few species and grow them well. Working in the forest industry and now in commercial sales of timber products, volume certainly helps with marketing. If a number of growers within a region are working towards growing the same product then collective marketing becomes possible.

[MAI]

G'day MAI

I don't want to sound negative but I know Gordon reasonably well and he is totally off the mark with his idea of planting only 200 blackwood / ha for commercial plantations. There are no such examples in existence other than his very small planting that is only some 6 years of age (way too early to determine long term success and very site specific). I've personally surveyed blackwood plantations throughout Tassie, been to NZ and observed all their major blackwood trials and seen numerous blackwood trial sites throughout Vic.

If you want to produce a quality stand of blackwood then plant 800 sph with the aim of a final stocking of 200 stems/ha at most. If you are worried about the number of trees I am suggesting then concentrate on smaller areas to start with. All the stands in NZ and elsewhere that have produced quality results started with a selection ratio of at least4:1.



Hi Stu,

I'd like to run a few things by you to see what you think. With trees I can obviously plant in haste and regret at my leisure so this sort of interchange is very useful before seedling enters soil. We were going to go down to the block today but my wife has a cold so we didn't make the trip. Which does segue nicely into my first point.

Gordon argues that farm foresters may have the best of intentions but generally find that they don't have the time to do thorough thinning and pruning. Hence one of his justifications for a low sph. Fewer trees so less pruning. He also argues that if the provenance and site is right and the trees are appropriately sheltered this will drastically reduce the need for thinning. Hence lower initial stocking and reduced work for our farm forester.

In the process of buying our block I wandered across 20-30 properties in the area roughly between Foster and Mirboo North. Because I want to grow blackwood and silver wattle I spent quite a bit of time in various gullies. Often with steep sides. One place in Dollar I could just about touch the slope in front of me and the slope steepened as it entered the actual gully! There's some very fit sheep and cows on some of these blocks. Which does make it hard for them to put on condition which is one reason why these properties are being sold and which in turn suggests using some of the land to grow high value timber. The trees don't care about the angle of the slope. Although at harvest this might require chainsaw felling, limbing and bucking and winching the logs up the slope.

But a distinguishing feature of the blackwood and silver wattle in at least the south and south east facing gullies that had some shelter from prevailing winds was the superb form of these trees. Now I guess it is possible that the trees that had survived were the ones that had the genetics for heading for the sun at max speed and then popping out some canopy. In this scenario the BW/SW would have effectively self-thinned. But perhaps if these favourable conditions could be replicated, lower stocking rates would still provide a satisfactory number of good form stems.

What do you think?

Regards

MAI

[MAI]

G'day MAI



The ash species are monocalypts but can suffer from growth stress if stockings are too high and have drying issues as mentioned. Of the ash species, E.fastigata has been found to have the best milling and drying characteristics and has good cold / frost tolerance and is a preferred species to E.nitens. However, the form isn’t as good so higher initial stockings are preferable to allow greater selection.



Well, fastigata wasn't one I was thinking of. The NSW DPI Private Forestry are also complimentary about this tree:

http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0008/368144/Eucalyptus-fastigata.pdf

And I think from the notes our site would be OK although it might prefer a bit more altitude. We're at about only 200m but we would be at the southern tip of its natural range so might be cool enough.

So the question becomes where I can get some seedlings, ideally with some form and provenance info. I'm finding this something of a problem with any farm forestry species outside the more common plantation trees. A friend with a background in nursery propagation is doing some seedlings for me from "best trees" (such as the melliodora and G. robusta in her front yard) but she's only setup for small numbers. She might be able to do some of the acacias and the sequoia etc

I think I might have to get some local provenance seed for some of the species and get them commercially propagated.

Thanks for the tip

MAI

[MAI]

Aside fromYS I am also a fan of Spotted Gum (C.maculata). Timber quality is better than YS and it will cope with drier sites. However, it can’t match YS for growth rates in higher rainfall sites and isn’t as frost tolerant (keeping in mind that YS can tolerate mild frosts at best). The one species that will grow as fast as the ashes in high rainfall areas, produce high density timber and can be sawn and may be successfully dried is E.globulus. However, it can be susceptible to tension wood formation which will certainly affect drying and recovery. Tension wood can be controlled with silviculture by early non-commercial thinning to final pruned stockings, but I would recommend 150stems/ha at most with even spacing. Pruned stems close together (eg: 5 metersor less as a guide) will result in unbalanced crowns, another significant causeof tension wood formation.

Only my opinion, but personally I would concentrate on the following species for high rainfall areas with good soils. Blackwood for small areas such as steep slopes and gullies that are sheltered. YS for lower valleys and mid slopes. Maculata for drier ridges and exposed areas where YS would suffer. Fastigata for cold high elevation sites or areas subject to heavy frost. A mixture of YS and Blackwood can be done but stocking needs to be lowered. Globulus probably worth a go but be wary of tension wood and not for frosty sites. Another I would grow is a cypress called Ovensii. Redwood has potential and a range of species is always worth trialling but if wood production for commercial return is the aim then concentrate on a few species and grow them well. Working in the forest industry and now in commercial sales of timber products, volume certainly helps with marketing. If a number of growers within a region are working towards growing the same product then collective marketing becomes possible.

Thanks for the suggestions. YS, maculata, globulus are all on the list. Interesting suggestion about Cupressus ovensii. There's some material at:

http://www.privateforests.tas.gov.au/files/attachments/2005_15_cypress_overview.pdf

which you're probably well aware of but which might be of interest to other readers. I have lusitanica on the planting list. I'll add ovensii but again will need to source either some seed for local propagation or some seedlings

Bye for now

MAI

[Stu70]

Thanks for the suggestions. YS, maculata, globulus are all on the list. Interesting suggestion about Cupressus ovensii. There's some material at:

http://www.privateforests.tas.gov.au/files/attachments/2005_15_cypress_overview.pdf

which you're probably well aware of but which might be of interest to other readers. I have lusitanica on the planting list. I'll add ovensii but again will need to source either some seed for local propagation or some seedlings

Bye for now

MAI

G'day MAI

Private Forests Tasmania's farm forestry series on blackwood, cypress, eucs and radiata I'm aware of, I actually wrote them for PFT.

Stu :)

[Stu70]

G’day MAI

How have you gone about planning for your property? If you haven’t already done so the following will need attention.

Lodgment of a Plantation Development Notice with the Local Council to ensure you have legal right to harvest in the future. This requires info such as an accurate property map, species composition, regimes and timeframes.

Have you worked out exactly what you’re in for? How many ha to be planted to each species, stocking rates, seedling, chemical and fertiliser requirements, hours and $ required to conduct weed control and planting. What means of browsing control is required and what threats are there to newly planted seedlings – rabbits, hairs, wallabies and/or stock? Have you considered what it will take to get all the pruning and thinning done?

All this needs to be worked out in advance so you can succeed. This is where landowners usually go wrong, entering into a farm forestry venture without knowing what it will take to achieve the end goal.

If you’re a primary producer then expenses can be claimed as deductions against farm income. However, if you earn your primary income off-farm then you need very detailed plans and economic modeling to be submitted to the Taxation Department. The ability to demonstrate a taxable income at the end of the rotation may allow non-capital expenses to be claimed in the year of expenditure against personal income.

MAI, I’ve been providing you with some of the best free advice you’ll get but I fear you may be going into this a bit blind. I’m not trying to be critical but good planning is essential to success and will save you a fortune in the long run. If you are doing the planning I’ve mentioned above then you’re on the right track.

Stu

[MAI]

G’day MAI

How have you gone about planning for your property? If you haven’t already done so the following will need attention.

a/ Lodgment of a Plantation Development Notice with the Local Council to ensure you have legal right to harvest in the future. This requires info such as an accurate property map, species composition, regimes and timeframes.

b/ Have you worked out exactly what you’re in for? How many ha to be planted to each species, stocking rates, seedling, chemical and fertiliser requirements, hours and $ required to conduct weed control and planting. What means of browsing control is required and what threats are there to newly planted seedlings – rabbits, hairs, wallabies and/or stock? Have you considered what it will take to get all the pruning and thinning done?

c/ MAI, I’ve been providing you with some of the best free advice you’ll get


Stu

Thanks, Stu. Replies to above.

a/ The current planning overlays in Victoria treat agroforestry (substantive agricultural activities mixed with trees for purposes such as timber production, shelter-belts etc) differently to farmland converted exclusively to timber production. But, of course, this could change in the future.

b/ Either done or in progress. I agree that a lot of farm forestry could be better planned. Why this isn't happening is an interesting question.

c/ Certainly been useful to have your input. Much appreciated.

Now I just need to find some seed/seedlings for some of the more uncommon plantings I have in mind. David Kleinig at Dendros Seed was recommended to me today as a potential source for cedar and silky oak
Regards

MAI

[dadpad]

I can vouch for the fact that wide spaced pines have big branches. I pruned 10 ha at Taggerty and they were not nice. They should be close to harvestable size now. Same chap had wide spaced nitens but i heard they didnt go so well. They looked good when i pruned to 6 m there so not sure what happened I suspect they ran out of water. My own look pretty good. I do need to thin them soon though.

Much of the plantation establishment i was involved in was planted at 1000 sph with an eventual goal of 150 sph. Its a tough job convincing farmers that there is no point in trying for a commercial thinning but that is a lesson NZ farmers learned a long time ago. Thin to waste, use what you can for firewood yourself and mulch the rest.

ironbarks...hmmm be prepared to form prune form prune form prune but don't give up on them. You'll think they'll never straighten out but they do seem to. Go for Higher density stocking ?1500? for ironbarks so you have plenty to select from.
I'd suggest trying to concentrate on one or two main species ~ either YS or E globulose ssp globulose with selected plantings of any of the others. Perhaps add in spotted gum in dryer areas if you think they can handle the frost or on a slope where they will get air movement on cold nights.
I have a few E glob ssp bicostata but the taper on them appears sharp. They did seem to handle the drought conditions we had here better than some of the tas bluegum. On the whole the tas bluegum seem pretty good and any that arn't is probably a result of less than ideal soil nutrient at establishment (boron). I had no idea about nutrient additions when i started out.

I do have a concern about the harvestability of steep gullies especially in some of the places i have seen in Gippsland. erosion land slip etc could be a major problem after harvest. You may not get permission to harvest.

I don't have much else to add. stu seems to be on the money with most of his advice.

[Stu70]

G'day Dadpad

Have to agree with you, Red Ironbark does need high stockings in the order you suggest for selection ratio. Great timber tree for low to medium rainfall sites and as you say, it's surprising how trees can straighten out with time provided form pruning is done on time.

With respect to Radiata, it's more than just the branches that are the problem at low stockings. Timber density, strength and stiffness suffers from fast growth, especially at high productivity sites. It's the proportion of younger, low quality wood within a log that is the issue. Quality can be affected to the point where it fails to meet specs for structural purposes. Personally I wouldn't recommend Radiata unless you have a significant area to plant such that economies of scale can be achieved. In general it's a low-value bulk commodity product that is competing with significant import volumes from lower cost producers such as NZ and Chile.

I hear your concerns regarding harvesting on steep slopes. Keep within the guidelines of codes of practice with respect to slope limits. However, I would argue that on steep slopes previously cleared of native vegetation and now in grass and stock that harvesting, done appropriately, is a better outcome than leaving such slopes to grass. The root systems of harvested trees will stabilise soils post harvesting until the next rotation is well established. There is also the option of not clearfelling steep slopes but undertaking selective harvesting and practice continue-cover forestry.

Glad to hear that you too recommend concentrating on just a few species.


Stu :)

[MAI]

No argument that you will struggle to compete at wholesale prices with local and overseas suppliers of commoditised construction timber. But I still intend to plant some radiata. I know I can get good quality seedlings and with appropriate silviculture I should be able to get some nice logs with good milling recovery rates. And I intend to follow the example of this chap - just down the road in Foster! - by value adding on farm and selling at retail prices to markets interested in locally grown timber.

From the AFG WWW site:

2010 State Tree Farmers of the Year (http://www.afg.asn.au/about-us/whats-new/awards/tree-farmer-of-the-year/367-2010-state-tree-farmers-of-the-year.html)

Victoria Tree Farmers of the Year 2010
Harry and Gina Baess
Property: 'Hazyna Timber', Foster, Victoria
Harry and Gina Baess are the winners of the Victorian AFG Tree Farmers of the Year for 2010. They farm a 23 hectare property near Foster in Victoria, which they purchased as a rundown windswept block in 1976, after which they began planting trees. Their property is at an elevation of 350 metres and has an average rainfall of above 900 mm. They grow high pruned pine, hardwood and a range of nuts as well as grazing cattle and sheep.

On-farm processing is a feature of this property, with trees being hand fallen, and then extracted using a combination of a winch on a farm tractor and a four-wheel-drive loader. The logs are then milled with a home-built sawmill. Furniture timber is air-dried and then kiln-dried in a home-made kiln. Selling timber for both furniture and construction has been carried out over the last 15 years.

Timber is graded and packed into 1m3 lots and sold to regular clients and also direct to the public. Furniture grade timber is dressed and sold direct to the public, often through regular advertising in the local newspapers. Sawdust is collected in 12m3 loads by a contractor for use in calf bedding and also by a local garden supplier. The timber products produced from the Baess property made up 60% of the property income, with 30% coming from cattle and sheep and 10% from nuts.

The Baess family believe they can demonstrate that their farm can support both forest and stock in a sustainable manner and that combining these enterprises results in greater profits then having either enterprise on its own.


With respect to number of species, perhaps a useful approach is as with any other venture, system design, etc to do a thorough plan covering objectives, time horizons, markets, returns, constraints in inputs such as owner time, capital and land, site conditions, risks and so on. In some cases, the obvious outcome from this design process will be a small number of species. In other cases multiple species, multiple outcomes will be the aim. Objectives might be as simple as getting a reliable return from a block with minimal involvement from the landowner in which case leasing land for a small but guaranteed return to a pulp grower may be appropriate. This was particularly rewarding during the period up the mid-2000's as rural land prices rose considerably so landowners could get a return from the trees and sell the land at a profit for a twofer. In other cases the outcomes might include stock and horticulture shelter, food, habitat, biodiversity, fine timber, construction timber, craftwood, posts, poles, firewood, riparian zone protection, steep slope erosion control and more. And it you also look at this process with some consideration for how investment portfolios are constructed, multiple species can start to look more attractive.

What I'm proposing is more along the lines of what I've seen on agroforestry farms in Middle Europe. And if you could sell hunting rights for deer in Vic even better :) I had a close up and personal encounter with Bambi on one property. That went straight off the potential purchase list as deer are very difficult to keep out, enthusiastic browsers of young trees and there's bag limits etc. That property was at Mt Best, surrounded by some lovely native forest which was obviously providing some useful habitat to this attractive but introduced species.

Lots of good stuff to be done in farm forestry in Australia

MAI

[dadpad]

Prices have decreased in export destinations, which are pushing down prices at the wharf gate, though as expected this has been mitigated to some extent by the drop in the NZ dollar. Most prices this month have remained flat though export pruned prices have dropped considerably.
NZ had a very large month for log exports during May, exporting 1.4 million tonnes, including over 1 million tonnes to China. This left NZ well on track to exceed the highest half year total ever for exports, despite including the typically slow January and February period. Exports this year so far are averaging just under 1.3 million tonnes per month.

Forestry news, forestry jobs - Friday Offcuts (http://www.fridayoffcuts.com/index.cfm?id=538#5)

[MAI]

This thread has had discussed blackwoods a bit. This one recently fell over on our block. 75cm DBH which is a reasonable size. I don't know how much usable timber will come out of it as it was mostly dead. If nothing else it's a good firewood.

The live branches I cut off yesterday - they had fallen over and broken a fence - showed nice colour.

So there's some encouraging signs about growing this fine timber species on our block.

[Stu70]

Please be cautious of claims made by a particular promoter of Blackwood plantations. A recent post on their website claims an extremely high price paid for a plain Blackwood log: it was in fact figured and hence the purchase price. I pointed this out and yet no correction has been made. The same promoter then goes on to state that 300 cube of sawlog per ha can be grown (presumably on a 35 year rotation) and thus a single hectare of Blackwood plantation can generate $250,000 at harvest (minus harvest and transport cost which might be in the vicinity of $5,000).
I get somewhat annoyed at ridiculous claims such as this. The prediction of 300 cube per ha is perhaps twice what may be achievable (despite having provided info on realistic growth rates to this promoter) while making claims of prices based on a single figured log as representative of what can be grown in plantation is in my view fraudulent. MIS forestry schemes have been a disaster and false claims as made by this particular promoter are no better.

[MAPLEMAN]

Please be cautious of claims made by a particular promoter of Blackwood plantations. A recent post on their website claims an extremely high price paid for a plain Blackwood log: it was in fact figured and hence the purchase price. I pointed this out and yet no correction has been made. The same promoter then goes on to state that 300 cube of sawlog per ha can be grown (presumably on a 35 year rotation) and thus a single hectare of Blackwood plantation can generate $250,000 at harvest (minus harvest and transport cost which might be in the vicinity of $5,000).
I get somewhat annoyed at ridiculous claims such as this. The prediction of 300 cube per ha is perhaps twice what may be achievable (despite having provided info on realistic growth rates to this promoter) while making claims of prices based on a single figured log as representative of what can be grown in plantation is in my view fraudulent. MIS forestry schemes have been a disaster and false claims as made by this particular promoter are no better.Thanks for sharing that info...sounds like 'pie in the sky' to me also...MM:2tsup:

[IanW]

ENG: Hello! I was in Vietnam , but there are some issues I would like to ask about the wood with you, if you can do is specialized construction vehicles spokes wooden door , and I need input for his wood workshop we may contact like? thank you!!

Vietnammes: Chào bạn! tôi ở việt nam nhưng có một số vẫn đề tôi muốn hỏi về chất liệu gỗ bên bạn, nếu bạn có thể tôi là đơn vị chuyên thi công cửa gỗ căm xe (http://cuagocaocap.org/thi-cong-cua-go-cam-xe-o-dau-tot/) các loại, và tôi cần đầu vào cho xưởng gỗ của mình chúng ta có thể liên lạc như thế nào? cảm ơn bạn!

Chao anh Duc. I'm afraid the English translation is not very good, and it is not clear what is the question you are asking. If you are able to get some help with the translation, we will try to help you with your problem.

We like to keep each thread to a single topic, so it would also be better if you begin a new thread for your question.
Chao Anh,