Knife set

[Bushmiller]

Knife set! What am I thinking? This is not just a knife set....it's a Japanese knife set, but here is the bad part: It's not for me :( .

Well, I s'pose I'd better explain. Last Christmas I bought a couple of Zhen knives for my daughter. You know the ones you make up your own handles for (that's the knives not the daughters). Anyhow, she really liked them and finally I got the knife block made up too after my initial stuff up. Some of you may have seen those threads in this section of the forums and under reviews.

What I didn't see was my son's face drop when he saw his sister's present. At least that is the story according to SWMBO. So I decided for his next birthday (July) to get together a couple of knives (well three actually, but I always struggled with advanced maths).

I leaned towards buying blanks again and attaching my own handles, but in the end I opted for three Japanese knives complete with JP style handles. Again I leaned towards the damascus style blades in stainless, but the reality is that this is probably essentially aesthetic more than practical. Don't get me wrong I absolutely love the folded look. It is special.

However, I ended up with these four knives:-

261716261715261714

In buying the Gyuto chef knife I had opted for a larger version, but was sent the standard knife in error. The seller offered to refund the extra money I had paid, but I explained it was the large knife I was after as it in particular was to replace one that my son had lost when he was working as a chef in the UK. The seller agreed to this and to arrange for the knife to be returned.

Then I was speaking to FenceFurniture and more in jest asked him whether he was interested in a Japanese chef's knife. To my surprise he said he had been thinking about them and agreed to buy it off me. I think it was just as much of a surprise for him as he is more used to selling me stuff! At the time of writing neither of us have it as it is in NC Archer's custody in Singleton.

Back to the knives: There is the Gyuto with a 270mm blue steel blade, the Petty chef with a 150mm SS VG10 damascus blade and a 120mm ko-deba left bevel made from blue steel.

The Gyuto is also made from V2 blue steel and is laminated. It has a rough hammered finish to the back of the knife progressing to a polished finish before reaching an incredibly sharp refined edge.

I hope I have described the knives correctly as I have some difficulties in identifying the names of the maker as opposed to the type of knife. I recall seeing somewhere on the forum a glossary of terms, but I wasn't able to turn this up quickly (eh..I didn't look really hard.) I don't mind at all if I am corrected on this.

It is my intention to make up a knife block and that will be my way of personalising the present. I get a little bit of a kick in devising a sculptural shape rather than just a lump of wood with slots in it. However, SWMBO's order book is a little full at the moment and I realised that it will be a few weeks before I can get to the block. I have a little time up my sleeve on this (famous last words there) so I will post when it is done.

The seller whose name is Nakoaka Tomonori started his career as a carpenter specialising in building shrines and palaces, but decided to take a career change and mine natural whetstones. Just as an aside this is from his ebay site:

Japanese natural whetstone Nakayama GOLD kiita AKA Nashiji so big 4569* | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Japanese-natural-whetstone-Nakayama-GOLD-kiita-AKA-Nashiji-so-big-4569-/200834099523?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ec2a52943&_uhb=1#ht_6164wt_752)

I wanted to show the video of the plane blade being sharpened and the bloke picking up the stone by the plane bevel, but I think the whole listing will come up. Never mind if it does. Also, does anybody buy these exorbitantly priced natural stones?

One last comment is that knives are difficult to photograph. I have asked FenceFurniture to take a picture of his knife and post it here. However, he probably won't get the knife until 5 May (The Blue Mountains GTG2).

Regards
Paul

[NCArcher]

261716261715261714


... At the time of writing neither of us have it as it is in NC Archer's custody in Singleton...

The Gyuto is also made from V2 blue steel and is laminated. It has a rough hammered finish to the back of the knife progressing to a polished finish before reaching an incredibly sharp refined edge.

Regards
Paul

Oh oh. I've been using it to sharpen the end of my tomato stakes. :-
I'm sure it will be fine :B

[Bushmiller]

Oh oh. I've been using it to sharpen the end of my tomato stakes. :-
I'm sure it will be fine :B

I think your inconsiderate use of Brett's treasured kitchen knife will pale into insignificance compared to when he realises just how large your commision is on that Tallow Wood :wink: .

Regards
Paul

[NCArcher]

True :yes:

[FenceFurniture]

:D

http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/62924-fencefurniture/albums/zmisc/267671-jap-knife-0002.JPG

Knife unused as yet - not sure how sharp it is - might have to send it to Ern for the finger test. See here (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f43/reasons-not-sharpen-fine-edge-170638/).

[rsser]

Yes, there are easier ways to check than radical dermabrasion!

Trad method is to cut a sheet of paper and then thinner paper. Another is to lay the edge on your thumbnail at about 45º off vertical, acute angle including the cuticle, and gently push forward. It should stick.

That's a handsome knife; you'll have fun with it.

[FenceFurniture]

Trad method is to cut a sheet of paper and then thinner paper. You mean like, splitting the paper? Now THAT would be a good test!

[rsser]

Some folk boast about splitting hairs. Really.

[Bushmiller]

Brett.

To quote the Croc, "Now that's a knife." It certainly shows off the knife to it's full potential and you can hardly see where Tony sharpened his tomato stakes with it :wink: .

Thanks for putting up a professional quality pic.

regards
Paul

[NCArcher]

I might also have hacked the roots away from a couple of trees I was transplanting, bloody rocky soil :~ ..but we won't go into that :roll:
I hope we are going to get some pics of the first cullinary masterpiece that the knife produces.

[NeilS]

I hope I have described the knives correctly as I have some difficulties in identifying the names of the maker as opposed to the type of knife. I recall seeing somewhere on the forum a glossary of terms, but I wasn't able to turn this up quickly (eh..I didn't look really hard.) I don't mind at all if I am corrected on this.



I think the ko-deba is by Ikeuchi Mikihisa and the petty by Tanaka, both from the knife making area of Miki.

The two gyutos look very much like the work of the blacksmith Yamawaku, from the the blade making area of Sanjo in Niigato (same area as Watanabe), but I cannot see any kanji to confirm that.

All very good choices for a starter Japanese knife kit.

I put a liberal coating of brass lacquer (although I cannot vouch for its safety on a kitchen utensil) on the soft iron clad ones that I have given to 1st time users. They often come with a very thin coating of something, but need more in IMO.

[NeilS]

In buying the Gyuto chef knife I had opted for a larger version, but was sent the standard knife in error.

Not unknown with this seller, in my experience.

[Mutawintji]

Wow .... some very nice knives Paul. I have also seen the others you have made.

Altho I know almost nothing about Japanese knives. Would this be the glossary of Japanese-animistic-religious-knife-names (http://zknives.com/knives/kitchen/misc/usetype/all/index.shtml) ?

I have a Mundial set myself, but have abandoned it as too hard too keep sharp. A lot of people find this I think.

I have a German, (name escapes me at the moment) Chef's knife, and I sharpen it till it shaves hairs on my arm. Seems to be a good yardstick for sharpening.

Greg

[FenceFurniture]

I have a German, (name escapes me at the moment) Chef's knife, and I sharpen it till it shaves hairs on my arm.

Wusthof?

[Mutawintji]

It could be ... and I'm inclined to think it maybe from memory ..... Hmmmmmmm ....

Cost around $80.00 and is a 'softer' steel than mundial and very easy to keep sharp and stays sharp longer. In general, and this is a personal opinion, softer blades stay sharp longer than hard blades.

Can that be ? I once tried to figure it out and came up with the idea that cutting use tends to self-sharpen them to a reasonable degree.

Cutting onion skin, garlic skin, is out for my knife ... I use an old knife for that ... and my knife NEVER touches another piece of steel, hand washed and dried, and is stored by being stuck, point first into the cutting board.

Greg

[Bushmiller]

Not unknown with this seller, in my experience.

Neil

Thanks for the input with names.

The knives are described as

Japanese Mikihisa ko-deba chef knife Houchou Sashimi 31
Japanese Kazuki Tanaka stainless Ni-Damascus VG10 P handle petty chef knife 150
Japanese hand weld YAMAWAKU water proof chestnut Gyuto chef knife

So Neil, you were right on the money:) .

The seller came to the party very well and offered a refund (as I had paid extra for the large knife), but I explained I wanted the larger chefs knife for my son to replace a large knife he lost or had stolen.

The seller then offered to have the knife returned and replaced at his expense. When I informed him I had found a buyer for the smaller knife, but still wanted the larger knife, he allowed an "apologize discount" of $10.

I think he was very relieved not to have to pay return freight, I was pleased because I got the knife I originally wanted and Brett was happy enough with his knife and he got ten dollars off.

A very satisfactory outcome, although I had a few tense moments because of the language issue, as to whether I could get my intentions across satisfactorily.

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

I have a Mundial set myself, but have abandoned it as too hard too keep sharp. A lot of people find this I think.



We had a Mundial set and the smaller knives were ok to sharpen but the chefs knife was definitely a problem with a steel. I suspect more frequent use of the water stone wouldhave yielded a better result.

Regards
Paul

[NeilS]

In general, and this is a personal opinion, softer blades stay sharp longer than hard blades.

Can that be ?



Not in theory or in my experience

But, your experience may be different Greg.

The Theory: the harder the material the more resistant it is to abrasion.

in Practice: harder steels take more effort to sharpen, but once sharp stay sharper for longer, however, the harder the steel the more brittle it is; so they have to be used with care.

I tend to have sharpening sessions when I get all of my waterstones and knives out and sharpen them all at the same time. They all end up with the same level of sharpness (very sharp). The softer HRC -60 steels quickly loose their edge, the low 60s last a lot longer, and the 63-65s go on and on, provided that I avoid letting their brittle hard edges hit anything hard.

[Mutawintji]

Not in theory or in my experience

But, your experience may be different Greg.

The Theory: the harder the material the more resistant it is to abrasion.

in Practice: harder steels take more effort to sharpen, but once sharp stay sharper for longer, however, the harder the steel the more brittle it is; so they have to be used with care.

I tend to have sharpening sessions when I get all of my waterstones and knives out and sharpen them all at the same time. They all end up with the same level of sharpness (very sharp). The softer HRC -60 steels quickly loose their edge, the low 60s last a lot longer, and the 63-65s go on and on, provided that I avoid letting their brittle hard edges hit anything hard.

Yes ... I get mine very sharp too. So, if you are right then my Chef's Knife must have a softer lamination on the outer sides of the blade. It is definitely softer and easier to sharpen than the Mundials.

My sharpening is as follows:

I sharpen at 22.5 degrees. I can do this by hand after so many years. But to get the angle you just fold a square piece of paper into a triangle which gives 45degs and then fold it again which gives the 22.5.

Then I 'rough-stone' (just a normal stone ... probably about 200 grit ?) till I can feel the 'jagged' edge all along the blade .... this tells me I have a 'new' edge at the right angle. Now I proceed much more gently with the same stone ... and swap sides much more regular .. after about 3 minutes I can now shave hairs off my arm or leg .. no problem.

At this point I replace the stone with a diamond stone .. small .. 60mm long .. And now I just idly hone it while talking or watching TV for about 20mins .. at the same 22.5 angle .. this brings it to razor-sharp ... and the longer I hone the sharper it continues to get. But too sharp will not last as long in the kitchen

For the German knife this works perfect. For the Mundials ... not so good.


I also have a very large chef's knife (which has proved impractical and unusable because of its length and rocker) and the Blade is 'Green River Steel' ?? ... This knife will take an edge even quicker than the German Chef's knife. It also can easily be honed to razor-sharp.

In my opinion, and I may be using the wrong term ..

The green river is the 'softest' blade

The german is the next 'softest' blade

The mundials are the 'hardest blades'

The green River holds its edge the longest ?? Does this make sense ??

Greg

[FenceFurniture]

Interesting. What I know about knife sharpening could be engraved on a pin head in 10pt font. However, I'm now breaking away from using a steel and going to a 1000 and 6000 pair of Lobster Waterstones. Thanks to Ern, I have also started reading the recently acquired book from Leonard Lee (how to sharpen virtually any tool - shed or kitchen).

He advocates angles as low as 5* each side (so included angle of 10*) for cutting soft things and "nearly 20* (included angle about 35*)" for heavy duty chopping, such as Ern trying to remove his finger the other day. Greg, using this benchmark, maybe your angle is too blunt (although I would have thought it would last longer, being a much more robust edge).

First attempt on the 23cm Chef's Wusthof with the stones (and 5*) wasn't too great, but I doubt that I got to the edge as there was prolly still more bevel to remove from what was likely to have always been a 15-20* each side bevel using the steel. A few days later I had another go, spending longer on the 1000 to remove steel to go to 5*, and this was an improvement, and a better edge than using the steel.

Now that I have the knife from Paul (similar size to the Wusthof) I'll probably keep it at 5-8* and go 10-15* on the Wusthof for heavyier work (double that to get the inc.angle). I'll also have a think about what sort of jig I can make to assist this. I can keep a reasonably consistent hand held angle, but it only takes a stroke or two out of whack on the 1000 to bugger the edge.

Others will know better, but I'm not so sure that Mundials, Wusthofs and other Western knives are laminated steel. More a Japanese speciality.

[rsser]

In terms of getting a consistent angle at major grinds I find a honing guide useful:

Honing Guide for Knives - Lee Valley Tools (http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=32456&cat=1,43072)

This isn't entirely painting by numbers as you still need to maintain the curve of an edge and the clamp arms don't flex to the same degree so it's easy to get asymmetric bevels.

[Mutawintji]

Hmmmmm ... the reason I sharpen at 22.5 is when I first started out sharpening ... which came about thru cooking ... I went to the butcher shop and asked the butcher how to sharpen knives.

He showed me the 22.5 degs.. and from memory he said that sharper is obtainable but not practical for general purpose. This could be wrong, I have never checked. As well he showed me boning knives, etc that were extremely soft .... you could sharpen them to a fine edge with just a few strokes ?? And these were used on the kill-floor of slaughter yards. This left me with the impression that hard steel is not necessarily the best for everyday practical purposes.

Because a soft knife is easy to steel and sharpen it is preferable to a hard knife when you are using it as a tool of employ. This could be wrong too. But that was the general tone of what he told me.

I found that with the Mundials ... the ration of sharpen: use was way too high. I was forever sharpening them and they took a long time to sharpen.

I also 'steel' between sharpenings and at the start of every 'use'. my understanding of 'steeling' is simple alignment of electron-magnetic-moment giving a more rigid molecular bond. If this is true then you would need to 'steel' quite often and regular to maintain the alignment. And it appears that butchers/meat workers do this very regularly which supports my theory.

My steel is 'smooth'.

I don't have any scientific evidence at all. Just my observations.

cool bananas ... greg

[rsser]

Western boning knives can be rigid or flexible BTW.

Re Mundials, with my two kits I can't say I've seen that much diff. from other Western knives but my understanding is that hardening and tempering can vary somewhat by batch.

The larger Mundials (8" & 6" chef French cooks' knives) are fairly thick right down to the bevel cp the equiv. Gyotoh so obviously a good deal more steel has to come off when doing a major grind.

Just to repeat the important warning: steels are not for hard-steel JP knives.

[FenceFurniture]

In terms of getting a consistent angle at major grinds I find a honing guide useful:

Honing Guide for Knives - Lee Valley Tools (http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=32456&cat=1,43072)

This isn't entirely painting by numbers as you still need to maintain the curve of an edge and the clamp arms don't flex to the same degree so it's easy to get asymmetric bevels.

Thanks Ern, I may add that to the LV list (another order soonish). However, it doesn't have much of a grab on the knife, although it's only a guide of course. It just looks like it could skit over if I look crossly at it. I'm thinking of something timber with REMs to grab the blade yadda.

[rsser]

No it doesn't have a strong grip on the knife. It can be improved by gluing some W&D on the clamp faces - have done this with a Lanksy all-in-one kit.

A strong grip is not really needed though; the forces are through one hand on the knife handle and two fingers on the blade. With a good stone that you've built up a bit of slurry on, as always the abrasive should be doing the working. Too much force on my Watanabe Gyoto will on a #1000 stone chip out the edge up towards the tip.

[FenceFurniture]

No it doesn't have a strong grip on the knife. It can be improved by gluing some W&D on the clamp faces - have done this with a Lanksy all-in-one kit.

A strong grip is not really needed though; the forces are through one hand on the knife handle and two fingers on the blade.

Yes, understood. I'm really talking about the wobbles.

[rsser]

OK.
Haven't found that a problem.
You need a bit of rocking longitudinally anyway to preserve the arc of the edge to the extent the knife has one.

[Mutawintji]

My problem with those 'aids' to the correct angle is that as you become proficient, more experienced, the more those things start to get in your way.

They are very good to start with as a learning aid. Once you know the angle, its like riding a bike, you can do it in the dark .... but training wheels are a good way to learn. Also you don't need to buy one, just cut a wedge at the desired angle and tape it back to the handle if you need.

I don't know the science behind blade sharpening but have always been interested in it in various cultures.

This guy, whose shop is not far from the Clockmaker (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f122/clockmaker-169468/#post1637261), and whom I have photographed and filmed many times over the years, can sharpen his knife without even looking. Starting about 04:00 am every morn he butchers 3-4 whole pigs every single day ..... with just a single knife ... no other tool.

He rarely sharpens it on the stone, only once every few weeks. He uses an upside-down stainless dish as his steel which he 'glues' to the bench with the first few cuts of pork fat. Under his forearm, and to the left, just visible is his 'cutting board'. It is the skin off the first pig for that day.

From questioning him I have found that there are various 'imitation' knives of this style, but the good 'steel' ones, like the one in this photo is worth about 1000 baht ... $30-$40. This is a HUGE amount of money for a knife in Thailand

This is amazing to watch. Here is a 1.25 sec shoot (12 photos) in which he sharpens his knife. He does not even look at the dish.

Can you imagine trying to convince him he needs and angle-aid ... haaa


NB: The big lump of pig fat and the upside down dish ... just to his right on the bench.


http://gallery.photo.net/photo/17317714-lg.jpg

http://gallery.photo.net/photo/17317716-lg.jpg


A 1.25 sec shoot in which he averages 13 strokes ..... He is talking to me while he does this and hardly paying attention at all to the sharpening. Tho neither of us speak each others language.


http://gallery.photo.net/photo/17317713-lg.jpg


Rarely, he will grind his only knife back on this stone .....


http://gallery.photo.net/photo/17317712-lg.jpg


The wooden block his stone is on is Tamarind trunk and is self disinfecting. They are used all over Thailand, and I have bought many back home and customs never gives me any grief over them. They are a very beautiful, heavy, dense, wood.

cool bananas ... Greg

[Bushmiller]

He showed me the 22.5 degs.. and from memory he said that sharper is obtainable but not practical for general purpose. This could be wrong, I have never checked.



Greg

I think your man has made a very important point. For example how long does a razor blade hold it's edge? Bear in mind it only has to cut lubricated hair. I think this applies to all cutting tools including chisels and plane blades.

There is a practical limit to how low the bevel goes. Yes it can be incredibly sharp will have no longevity. Somewhere there is a balance between sharpness (angle) and durability and this will depend on the purpose for which you are using the knife and the type of steel from which it is made.

Incidentally, the seller of Brett's knife contacted me again after I had received the last knife just to remind me that the Gyuto should only be used on soft foods. In other words use it to contact bone or frozen foods and you'll be sorry. It will chip.

Brett's knife is V2 steel (blue steel family) HRC 63-64

Regards
Paul

[rsser]

I've used my Gyutoh for cooking 2-3 times a week and slicing solid bread each morning - and it's lasted 3 months before needing a return to the stones.

Couldn't tell you what the included bevel angle is. After a sharpen it goes through capsicum (and skin :rolleyes: ) like it wasn't there.

[Mutawintji]

I find onion Skin (brown onions) is the worst for blunting my knife. I use an old serrated knife to cut the skin. Fibrous matter also blunts, but strangely not frozen meat.

For one dish I cook I like the roo meat semi-almost-frozen so that I can cut it very thin. The knife cuts thru frozen meat and never blunts on it.

My little pocket-diamond steel still seems to work after about 15 years now. I didn't realise diamond stones wore out. I seem to remember reading the little brochure that told me ... does not matter if it goes smooth, the stone is still working. Mine still works for sure.

Greg

[FenceFurniture]

L.Lee talks about knives with a slight serration for some foodstuffs but what he means by this is the edge from a 1000 stone, so microscopic serrations (bread etc). That is, don't follow with a 6000 stone, and the sharpening is done perpendicular to the edge rather than along it.

My Jap knife from Paul does a wicked job on crusty sourdough bread (knife not honed as yet, clearly doesn't need it).

[Mutawintji]

A quick link to the Thai Butcher in action ... but don't think he is sharpening here ... just cutting and 'steeling'.


Thai Style Butchering (http://youtu.be/6eoJO52sMoE) opps ... just fixed link

Greg

[Mutawintji]

L.Lee talks about knives with a slight serration .......and the sharpening is done perpendicular to the edge rather than along it.



When I have let my knife go to long .. my first rough in is perpendicular to the edge .... This is a very fast way to get the bevel back.

But for sharpening I use a circular motion ... and always the stone in one hand and the knife in the other. It is easier, (believe it or not) to keep two hands in sync with the correct angle than using a bench for the stone and trying to maintain the correct angle with the bench.

cool bananas ... Greg.

PS: I have a number of interesting knives, one is HUGE, and would love to see others knives. perhaps we could start a 'show-&-tell' thread ??

Greg

[FenceFurniture]

Done! Click (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f111/my-kit-japanese-knives-wip-141868/)

[Mutawintji]

Done! Click (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f111/my-kit-japanese-knives-wip-141868/)

Cool ... will photo mine this weekend

greg

[NeilS]

In my opinion, and I may be using the wrong term ..

The green river is the 'softest' blade

The german is the next 'softest' blade

The mundials are the 'hardest blades'

The green River holds its edge the longest ?? Does this make sense ??



Well, it confounds me, Greg. I can't think of why it would be so... but somehow it does for you.

BTW, what is the grit size of the diamond plate you are honing your knives on?

Neil

[NeilS]

L.Lee talks about knives with a slight serration for some foodstuffs but what he means by this is the edge from a 1000 stone, so microscopic serrations (bread etc). That is, don't follow with a 6000 stone, and the sharpening is done perpendicular to the edge rather than along it.



Lee is spot on with this, as he is with most things to do with sharpening.

I suggest you leave your Yamawakus and Tanakas for as long as you can before you sharpen them yourself; you are unlikely to ever get them as sharp again. It was sharpened by an expert on one of those very expensive natural waterstones that we are unlikely to ever get our hands (or knives) on...:)

[FenceFurniture]

Perzackly my intention Neil.

[NeilS]

Leonard Lee... advocates angles as low as 5* each side (so included angle of 10*) for cutting soft things



Brett - I keep my nakiri with a 10* included angle for fine slicing soft fruit and veg. The blade falls through them, but has to be used with care.

Greg - here are my regulars...

268061



The Shun on the far right is mainly used by my wife, and I also use a small Global paring knife because I like the profile (but not the steel).

Neil

[Mutawintji]

Well, it confounds me, Greg. I can't think of why it would be so... but somehow it does for you.

BTW, what is the grit size of the diamond plate you are honing your knives on?

Neil

I 'bevel' on a normal stone plate about, maybe, guessing, 200-400 grit. In any case this stone was initially for wood-chisel-sharpening before I commandeered it. Then I use the diamond stone.

I am unsure of the grit size. I purchased it from Peacock Saw Sharpeners (http://www.peacocksaws.com.au/customPages/saw-sharpening.html) (who mainly sharpen saw blades) at least 15 years ago. It is small, about 70mm x 25mm and in a little leather pocket pouch. I have used it for the final hone on my knife for years. I actually have 2 and I always carry one when I go out west/out back.

My dad used to say always carry a good knife and a good rope and you can overcome any situation you are in ... it appears to be true.

I don't have it with me now, it is up the mountain but I just searched for it on the net and found a picture Here (http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/Diamond_Pocket_Stone.html)


I find for cooking that over the years I have really only a need for the Chef's knife and a cheap Chinese Cleaver, about 20 years old now, stainless, and also holds a very good edge. I find the Chef's knife versatile and no longer use any other knives apart from the Mundial bread knife that is in the Mundial set. I don't even use the Mundial steel, but have a smooth one from a slaughter yard.

But I am only self taught and I could be wrong on my assumptions above. Personal preference again, but I like a fair amount of 'rocker' on my knife and the handle high up so your knuckles are not hitting the board as you rapidly slice. In your photo the one on the left would be my preference. To be honest, and you will probably laugh, but I have often thought of purchasing a good chinese cleaver and putting some rocker on it. In asia, knife/cleavers are the only knife they use for cooking and I have watched them do the most delicate of slicing, and then cut a duck up bones and all. I have even seen them scale/filet fish. If you look at the Butcher's knife above you will see that it is really a cleaver with rocker.

Your knives are beautiful and, to me, good knives are works of art and pure pleasure to look at.


I have .... ummmmmm .... a 'collection' of knives. Haaa .... they are unusual to say the least. The 'collection' does not include any knife I have mentioned (my regulars) so far. They were collected for another purpose and one day I realised I had an accidental 'collection' ... so funny. These are not knives I use.

I will photo them and tell the story of each one, maybe start a new thread. Will do so this weekend.

Greg

[Mutawintji]

Here is a couple of the rocker-knife-cleaver in action. Fileting Basa.

Notice the ubiquitous Tamarind Wood Block. They are self dis-infecting, someting in the wood itself and they are used for every cooking purpose everywhere. I am going to Thailand in September to visit number two daughter who lives there and will be bringing some more blocks back.

If anyone wants one let me know here and I will try to bring them back for you. Ummmmm ... numbers would be limited due to weight.

http://gallery.photo.net/photo/17321453-lg.jpg

http://gallery.photo.net/photo/17321452-lg.jpg

greg

[Bushmiller]

Greg

I'll put my hand up for one of those Tamarind blocks please. Will it cause any problem importing a wood product? Will talk later.

Regards
Paul

[Mutawintji]

OK ... thats one.

No .. I have never had a problem bringing them in so far.

cool bananas ... Greg

[Bushmiller]

I suggest you leave your Yamawakus and Tanakas for as long as you can before you sharpen them yourself; you are unlikely to ever get them as sharp again. It was sharpened by an expert on one of those very expensive natural waterstones that we are unlikely to ever get our hands (or knives) on...:)

Neil

You have touched on an issue here that I alluded to at the end of my original post: The natural waterstone versus the man-made waterstone. In fact I raised the question as to whether anybody does really part with thousands of dollars for them. Clearly there are varying qualities in both natural and man-made stones. Are the natural stones so very good (or just for some purposes) ?

For those of you who didn't see the video from that first post (it's on the website) shows a plane blade sharpened on a natural stone. The person then places the bevel of the stone he has been using and lifts the stone with the blade. The vacuum created seems to indicate a perfect surface!

i would be interested to hear your thoughts and indeed the thoughts of others on this matter.

Regards
Paul

[NeilS]

I am unsure of the grit size. I purchased it from Peacock Saw Sharpeners (http://www.peacocksaws.com.au/customPages/saw-sharpening.html) (who mainly sharpen saw blades) at least 15 years ago. It is small, about 70mm x 25mm and in a little leather pocket pouch. I have used it for the final hone on my knife for years. I actually have 2 and I always carry one when I go out west/out back.

Greg

If you were using it for a final hone I expect about #600, although they do now go up to #1200 (eg Stu's Atoma #1200 (http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=335_462_464&products_id=1193))




My dad used to say always carry a good knife and a good rope and you can overcome any situation you are in ... it appears to be true.



My grandfather also added fencing wire to that short list...:U

[Mutawintji]

oopps ... Gotta get back to wire-jerking or i iz in trouble.

The process your referring to Paul is called 'wringing' And is commonly used in machining.

WIKI HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauge_block)

An important feature of gauge blocks is that they can be joined together with very little dimensional uncertainty. The blocks are joined by a sliding process called wringing, which causes their ultraflat surfaces to cling together.

Greg

[Mutawintji]

Haaa .... Neil, so true.

Amongst many other uses ... a length of fencing wire is the best thing to carry if there are snakes about. I just bend a handle on it and carry it thru the bush. I would never kill a snake unless I was attacked. So far so good .. but up at my place the little browns get reeeely aggressive in mating season and for a slippery creature like that fencing wire is a perfect whip.

Greg

[NeilS]

Neil

You have touched on an issue here that I alluded to at the end of my original post: The natural waterstone versus the man-made waterstone.

Paul - I would like to take a rain check on this one. The topic deserves more time than I have today, but I will get back to it.

In the mean time, I know that there are others on this forum who are natural waterstone users who might be willing to share their experiences and views on the topic, although they might not be following this particular (kitchen knife) thread.

There was a previous threads on this topic. Maybe revive that thread or start a new one if you think there is more mileage to cover on the topic. If for no other reason, with the five years that have passed since that thread, the previous contributors may have further refined their views with further experience and there may also be others who have not yet contributed theirs. I would be interested myself in any updated or new thoughts on the topic.

Natural Japanese waterstones (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f111/natural-japanese-waterstones-79493/?highlight=natural)

Started by wilburpan (http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/17204-wilburpan/), 19th Sep 2008 08:06 PM


Neil

[NeilS]

I was going to revive that previous thread on Natural Japanese Waterstones (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f111/natural-japanese-waterstones-79493/), but it didn’t let me, so I have started a new thread, Natural Japanese waterstones update (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f111/natural-japanese-waterstones-update-170948/)

It would still be useful to read through the old thread first if you are interested in the topic.

[Bushmiller]

I was going to revive that previous thread on Natural Japanese Waterstones (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f111/natural-japanese-waterstones-79493/), but it didn’t let me, so I have started a new thread, Natural Japanese waterstones update (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f111/natural-japanese-waterstones-update-170948/)

It would still be useful to read through the old thread first if you are interested in the topic.

Thanks Neil

I had a quick skim through, but will have a more detailed look later.

Regards
Paul

[rsser]

Choice has just published a knife comparo of 20cm Cooks knives. Ratings were for handling (70%), initial edge (15%) and blunting (15%).

The best performer on blunting was the Scanpan Classic (rated at 70%); the worst was Mundial (45%). The blunting test 'involved each knife being subjected to 50 slicing strokes into an aluminium rod using a purpose-built mechanical burnishing machine'

The best bang for buck was a Victorinox. It made the top 7 and only cost $66.

Other brands tested included Shun, Global, Tamahagane, Tojiro, Wusthof and Zwilling.

[NeilS]

Thanks Ern for the Choice summary.

I expect that none of my 'good' Japanese knives would cope with being sliced against an aluminium rod once, let alone 50 times. The edge would have shattered almost immediately rather than becoming blunt. I guess that is the difference between a knife at 57 HRC and one at 64 HRC. On the other hand, I expect a 57 HRC knife would have to be resharpened many many times compared to a 64 HRC knife when used to cut food rather than aluminium rods.

Of course the aluminium rod were probably used to simulate bone, in which case I should think seriously about getting a Scanpan Classic for that occasional purpose and to save the edges on my good Japanese knives. I could then throw away the old junk knives/cleavers that I have kept for that purpose, which have become space wasters.

Neil
.

[rsser]

Yeah, the blunting test would make a mess of my JP slicing knives too.

That said, I wonder how fair a test it was if they didn't standardise the bevel geometry. All other things equal, a thick blade/obtuse bevel angle is going to perform best.

[Bushmiller]

Yeah, the blunting test would make a mess of my JP slicing knives too.

That said, I wonder how fair a test it was if they didn't standardise the bevel geometry. All other things equal, a thick blade/obtuse bevel angle is going to perform best.

Ern

Good point (oops sorry). I'm not sure that their criteria for judging was correct or maybe for most people it was.

Regards
Paul

[FenceFurniture]

So, just while we're on the subject, I thought I'd revisit sharpening my Wusthofs on the stones again.

The first go a few weeks ago didn't seem to change much, if anything (1k stone then 6k). Subsequently, and with the aid of a 30x loupe, I worked out that this was due to a few factors:

the angle I was bevelling them at was about 5-8* each side (deliberate), but they were previously sharpened exclusively on a Steel, with a significantly higher angle. Therefore the sharpness didn't improve 'coz I simply hadn't got to the edge yet - still had to knock more off the back end of the bevel to get to around 5-8* at the edge. DUH!
even though I can hold the knife fairly steady when working it backwards and forwards down the stone, it still rocks enough to yield a curved bevel (hence why I was talking about a jig, earlier). Furthermore, swapping to the other side of the bevel means changing to a left handed grip, and I'm not ambidextrous, so this side suffers even more.
I hadn't quite wrapped my head around sharpening through the curve - the tip seems to need a steeper angle, or the stroke on the stone needs to be curved to match the curve of the blade, OR SUMMINT! :doh:


So, I got to thinking about the jiggy-jig, as one tends to do. Last weekend I sharpened a couple of Joinery Floats (which turned out to be the same Rc hardness as the file I was trying to sharpen them with :~ instead of 6-8 lower like they were before). I had rigged up a strong strip magnet to the edge of a piece of 3x1, and clamped the timber in the vise with the magnet sitting well proud of the vise. Then put the float on the magnet and file away (for far too long....).

What I wanted to achieve with knife sharpening was a consistent angle, and no rocking. I figured that if I tried this magnet get-up it may allow me to achieve that. I reasoned that the stone should be easier to hold steady because of its weight, and easier to hold at the right angle because of its size and shape. Also, I thought that running the stone along the edge, instead of across it (except where some heavy work may be required) that I would get a more consistent angle because of the length of the stroke. Hey, all the Samurai I've seen do it that way, including Ken Wattanabe :D (in The Last Samurai - thoroughly excellent film, btw).

http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/62924-fencefurniture/albums/zmisc/270347-knife-sharpening-1.JPG


http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/62924-fencefurniture/albums/zmisc/270348-knife-sharpening-2.JPG

As it turned out this was the case- it suited me better - and I was able to get better pressure happening, and a quicker job to boot. The polishing with the 6k stone in particular was really good this way.

Still plenty more to learn, and better results to get, but all the knives done this way made very short work of some softish cherry tomatoes (there even harder to penetrate cleanly and without squish when they are soft). There was no deformation of the fruit shape at all as I cut. In fact I could tell on the big Wusthof that a part of the bevel just at the back of the curve was still not "there" yet, and no doubt loupe inspection will reveal all.


http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/62924-fencefurniture/albums/zmisc/270349-knife-sharpening-3.JPG

[Bushmiller]

Brett

When I bought my first diamond plate (probably nearly 20 years ago) at an agricultural field day, the guy demonstrating sharpening talked about removing the "shoulder," which is basically when the bevel becomes too steep.

I believe that when we put the knife on the stone we refine that edge or "shoulder" and make it more receptive to taking the final sharp edge to which we all strive.

Thanks for putting up the pix.

Regards
Paul

[NeilS]

Interesting solution Brett. At least you get to know how a sharp knife cuts.

Just two thoughts.

With the wet face of the stone upside down you are going to lose more valuable grit that way, but that may not be an issue for you.

Working along the edge rather than across (or diagonally across) it will produce a stepped instead of a micro-serrated edge. I understand that a stepped edge is more fragile than a serrated edge, which will not last as long nor perform so well on slicing cuts. But, I imagine that you could adjust your method to overcome that.

Neil

[FenceFurniture]

Hi Neil

I had considered the grit loss and gravity, but it's so tiny that it doesn't matter at all. You can see on the black granite the drops of grit from several sharpenings.

I had also considered the loss of serrations, but figure that this is better than the rolled bevel I was getting (through not-so-good-technique I'm afraid). That was tantamount to a stepped bevel anyway I guess.

I had also seen a Youtube vid of a Japanese person (with a bandaided finger :U) doing the same sort of stroke (along the edge) but inverted to my technique. I reckoned that the bandaid was a good sign :D

I did try some strokes going across the edge but it tended to make the knife slide across the magnet. It works ok when just pushing the stone towards the edge only (but that will create a bigger burr).

Cheers
Brett

[rsser]

Using the DMT knife clamp to maintain the bevel angle while stroking the edge parallel to the stone long side (and sometimes a little skewed as well) clearly I must be getting steps too but I can't say I've noticed poorer performance.

Then again a side by side test would be the only way to be sure.

It might account for a little chipping out of the edge towards the gyutoh tip or that may have been a result of too much finger pressure there.

[Bushmiller]

Well the thread has digressed at times a little, but that's ok with me as I am one of the worst offenders on that score. In fact once upon a time in a former life I sat in an office situation with two other bloke sitting directly behind me.

We used to pass the time telling stories in what was otherwise an extraordinary existence. On this particular occasion the blokes behind went unusually quiet. I turned around to see what was going on. They looked at me and said

"Doesn't that remind you of anything? :D"

Apparently I had the habit of leading into digressions with that catch phrase. But I digress :rolleyes:....

I finally made up the knife block to house the JP knives I bought for Simon's birthday. He won't get them until late July when I head down to NSW and he is going overseas on holiday until the 12th anyway, but here is what I came up with:

273852273855273856273857273858

Still have to apply a final coat as there are a few blemishes probably not visible in the pix.

Regards
Paul

[rsser]

Lovely block. Great work Paul.

[Bushmiller]

Lovely block. Great work Paul.

Thanks Ern

Regards
Paul

[Sheets]

Still have to apply a final coat as there are a few blemishes probably not visible in the pix.

Regards
Paul

Oh no, there there:U

Just kidding,.... very nice work and a lovely design.

Steve

[Sheets]

Oh no, they're there:U

Just kidding,.... very nice work and a lovely design.

Steve

Where'd I learn to spell?

[NeilS]

I finally made up the knife block to house the JP knives



Very elegant.

I'm sure the block (and knives) will be well received.

Neil

[Bushmiller]

Thanks Neil.

Perhaps I should have mentioned that the block is just common all garden pine. In fact it was some offcuts Simon had left behind when he moved out (again :D). The timber was stained with Prooftint, which is a Feast and Watson product. Then just varnished with Penetrol added to assist the flow.

One day I'll have to try the ebonising trick. Berlin was telling me how easy it was. It didn't sound too difficult. Possibly even I could do it. I'll have to contact him again to get the exact recipe. :rolleyes:

Regards
Paul