Serpentine belt pulley

[morrisman]

Hi

I may have to machine up a pulley for a serpentine grooved belt . The pulley needs to be 'X' diameter to achieve the 1500 rpm , needed on a 240 V 50hz St3 alternator head .

Does anyone know if these pullies are available 'off the shelf ' . Probably not .

The driving engine is a Lister model CS diesel stationary engine with a flywheel each side running at 650 rpm approx.

Ive been told that the modern synthetic serpentine belts are far more effective than the older flat belts re: handling the horsepower , and the older belts require a crowned pulley etc. the other option is B section V belts, but I would have to machine up a B section pulley to fit onto the large crank shaft diameter of the Lister :?

Mike

[steran50]

HI:),
Mike I just looked up Serpentine Pulleys on eBay and I got a Fright. I would suggest going to a Wreckers or even a Automotive Workshop and getting and old Harmonic Balancer or Air Conditioning Compressor Pump Pulley and adapting one of them up. Of course they will only Work if they are the Size that You need.

[morrisman]

HI:),
Mike I just looked up Serpentine Pulleys on eBay and I got a Fright. I would suggest going to a Wreckers or even a Automotive Workshop and getting and old Harmonic Balancer or Air Conditioning Compressor Pump Pulley and adapting one of them up. Of course they will only Work if they are the Size that You need.

Thanks. Yes the cost of a new 8 ribbed PK section pulley is rather exhorbitant , to say the least . It seems that The drag racers use them on super chargers etc .

I found this formula somewhere

D2 = D1 X N1 divided by N2

where

D1= diam. of pulley on engine
D2= diam of pulley on generator
N1= rpm of engine
N2= rpm of generator

[nadroj]

Last time I checked, bearing suppliers had multi-vee pulleys at high prices.
They are not difficult to make. I found dimensions online.
Dunno about higher power ratings over single v-belts, but multi-vee can do "sharper" bends over smaller pulleys.
Driven from an ungrooved flywheel rim, there could be enough surface area to compensate for lack of wedging action of vee's.

Jordan

[malb]

Any chance of mounting an outrigger pulley outside one of the flywheels? If possible, this would broaden the range of belt configurations available to you and give you more leeway in selecting pulley sizes because you are not stuck with flywheel for a drive pulley.

Also I know some people with flat belt lathes have used a serpentine belt folded in as a flat belt quite successfully. I.e the belt is folded so the pulleys drive and are driven by the flat 'normal' outside surface of the belt while the V and ridges side runs outside. Then you are just looking at a fairly conventional flat pulley.

What is the power output of the engine and output capacity of the alternator, that will determine what you will need the belt to handle.

[morrisman]

Any chance of mounting an outrigger pulley outside one of the flywheels? If possible, this would broaden the range of belt configurations available to you and give you more leeway in selecting pulley sizes because you are not stuck with flywheel for a drive pulley.

Also I know some people with flat belt lathes have used a serpentine belt folded in as a flat belt quite successfully. I.e the belt is folded so the pulleys drive and are driven by the flat 'normal' outside surface of the belt while the V and ridges side runs outside. Then you are just looking at a fairly conventional flat pulley.

What is the power output of the engine and output capacity of the alternator, that will determine what you will need the belt to handle.

Yes some people fit a V section pulley on the outside of the flywheel..but the friction losses are higher with a V belt ..so I have been told

the engine is 6hp and the gen is 3kW

[nadroj]

Also I know some people with flat belt lathes have used a serpentine belt folded in as a flat belt quite successfully. I.e the belt is folded so the pulleys drive and are driven by the flat 'normal' outside surface of the belt while the V and ridges side runs outside. Then you are just looking at a fairly conventional flat pulley.


I have a multi-vee belt on my Hercus 9, alternative to a flat belt. I tried it first "inside out" so the flat side of the belt was against the pulleys. It slipped chronically, even with the belt tight as a drum. I refitted it so the grooved side of the belt is now facing the pulleys - totally successful, no slip problems any more, can have belt much looser which must be kinder to the plain bushes.
The back of the belt is evidently slippery.

Jordan

[Greg Q]

The southbend lathe owners in the states use polyvee belts running grooved side down on normal flat belt pulleys. The results are apparently very good-much better than a leather flat belt, and of course smoother than a vee belt. A lot of those guys make a scraf joint in the belt and glue it with loctite superglue. Better than a lathe spindle removal for a belt change.

Machinery's handbook has a section on these belts and pulleys and has measured drawings to make the grooves for the various belt sizes.

I believe that a pulley as narrow as 25mm will transmit 5h.p....something you cannot do with a single vee belt.

The other nice thing about poly vee belts is that you can get them anywhere in 10mm steps. Even Supercheap carries a large range of lengths in the common widths.

Greg

[morrisman]

hi

The automotive multi groove belts are different to the multi grooved industrial L type belts .

Most people seem to use the Automotive type belts and they perform fine on many applications

GATES 8pk 2658 ES 8PK2658ES EXTRA SERVICE Micro Ribbed Fan Auxiliary Drive Belt | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/GATES-8pk-2658-ES-8PK2658ES-EXTRA-SERVICE-Micro-Ribbed-Fan-Auxiliary-Drive-Belt-/360414548070?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item53ea619066)

I found this chart


http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=pk+pulley+data&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.megadyne.it%2Fpdf%2Fschede%2F183pag8-9-10-11.pdf&ei=cKJ7UcOFGKeZiAff0YCgDQ&usg=AFQjCNF5acsOJcW6AXhtoLJpFcLHWMRXtw&bvm=bv.45645796,d.aGc



(http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=pk+pulley+data&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.megadyne.it%2Fpdf%2Fschede%2F183pag8-9-10-11.pdf&ei=cKJ7UcOFGKeZiAff0YCgDQ&usg=AFQjCNF5acsOJcW6AXhtoLJpFcLHWMRXtw&bvm=bv.45645796,d.aGc)

[cba_melbourne]

Mike, I have made my own step pulley for a single 5M Polybelt. A serpentine belt is just a "multiple Polybelt". It is not hat hard to make. The necessary design knowhow can be found on the Gates site. Go to Powering Progress (http://www.gates.com) and register with them (no worry, they will not bombard you with advertising), then you click on “power transmission” and click on “drive design engineering” and “drive design manual online” and download the “Light Power and Precision Drive Design Manual”. I found page 97 is the most important with the dimensions for the 5M and micro-V Polybelt grooves. Have fun, Chris

[Combustor]

Hello Morrisman,
There is a guy in NSW selling the Indian Lister clones and a range of alternators, belts and pulleys to suit.
They probably don't sound cheap, but by the time you get material, tooling and taperlok fittings it is worth an enquiry.
His website is www.ozlisteroid.com and he has prices there. Look under "Other Items" . He has both the automotive and industrial belts and pulleys.
V-belt losses are not too bad as long as pulley sizes are not too small. Twin A section is a fair compromise and if you go with say 12" and 5" or 5.5" pulleys you will be in the speed range and not need excess belt tension.
Regards, Combustor.

[nadroj]

Mult-vee belts are great, but for "agricultural" applications I'd stil consider single vee belts. They work reliably, if not efficiently, even if the pulleys are misaligned, whereas serpentine belt pulleys want to be pretty accurately fitted.
Tip: If you can't find the exact width of serpentine belt you need, get a wider one and remove ribs to suit - they are easy to cut down.

Jordan

[morrisman]

Hello Morrisman,
There is a guy in NSW selling the Indian Lister clones and a range of alternators, belts and pulleys to suit.
They probably don't sound cheap, but by the time you get material, tooling and taperlok fittings it is worth an enquiry.
His website is www.ozlisteroid.com (http://www.ozlisteroid.com) and he has prices there. Look under "Other Items" . He has both the automotive and industrial belts and pulleys.
V-belt losses are not too bad as long as pulley sizes are not too small. Twin A section is a fair compromise and if you go with say 12" and 5" or 5.5" pulleys you will be in the speed range and not need excess belt tension.
Regards, Combustor.

Thanks all, for the info

I bought the engine from that guy you linked to Combuster .... yes, he does sell the pullies , but the 10" multi V pulley he sells ( the one I need ) is $200 :o he probably gets them machined locally , hence the high cost . Plus, you have to buy the tapered bush to fit into his pulley which is more $$$$$

I do have a twin A section pulley here, I bought it for $2 at a swap recently , it is about 12" diameter , but I would have to machine the centre of it out - because the engine has a 2" diameter flywheel shaft . The pulley would fit onto my PREMO lathe as its a gap bed lathe ....

I have to balance the engine yet..... these Indian Listers are notoriously bad when it comes to quality control ( casting sand inside , there are various manufacturers in India and some are better than others ) ..unlike the original British made Listers which were excellent .

Mike

PS . scrap plan B ..I just checked the A section pulley , its hub is not big enough to machine out to 2" :((

[steamboatbrucey]

Morrisman you really should be running a clutch as well, it allows you start and run up the engine before engaging the load of the generator also protects the generator


I used to specify lehanne clutch on the lister borehole pumps and transfer pumps we built (Former employer) also the speed range of your lister is really slow 680 rpm is that the rated speed ? what is its idle speed ? do you have a power curve for the engine ? whats the sweet spot on the engine all of the LT1 and 2 we used where rated at 1500 rpm deutz kubota yanmar etc where 1800 rpm they got the best economy and sweet spot at those revs

Lehane web site Selection Manual (http://lehane.homestead.com/manual.html)

Believe me no boddy machines pulleys in australia anymore they come from india Fenner is the brand and motion industries is usually the supplier and a B section belt is still the farmers standard for power transmission and life no fancy SPZ power belts poly v etc B belts only

Blackwoods stock them https://www.blackwoods.com.au/search/spb-section-pulleys-for-use-with-b-section-belts-only/302024212

Good luck with it

[morrisman]

Morrisman you really should be running a clutch as well, it allows you start and run up the engine before engaging the load of the generator also protects the generator


I used to specify lehanne clutch on the lister borehole pumps and transfer pumps we built (Former employer) also the speed range of your lister is really slow 680 rpm is that the rated speed ? what is its idle speed ? do you have a power curve for the engine ? whats the sweet spot on the engine all of the LT1 and 2 we used where rated at 1500 rpm deutz kubota yanmar etc where 1800 rpm they got the best economy and sweet spot at those revs

Lehane web site Selection Manual (http://lehane.homestead.com/manual.html)

Believe me no boddy machines pulleys in australia anymore they come from india Fenner is the brand and motion industries is usually the supplier and a B section belt is still the farmers standard for power transmission and life no fancy SPZ power belts poly v etc B belts only

Blackwoods stock them https://www.blackwoods.com.au/search/spb-section-pulleys-for-use-with-b-section-belts-only/302024212

Good luck with it

Thanks

Yes the CS Lister 6/1 engine is rated 6 hp at 650 rpm... these are slow revving engines designed in the 1920's and manufactured by Lister UK from 1929 - 1980's . They will run all day on a gallon of fuel and will run 24/7 for many years . They were so popular in India , after Lister UK ceased production, Indian firms made them . I wonder if that is a production record for a engine : 1929 - today continously being made :rolleyes: Mike

BTW CS = cold start . No blow torch or glo plug is needed to start the engine

[Combustor]

Hi again Morrisman,
Not much on Ebay in pulleys at present Do you have any scrap merchants, junk dealers and farm supply places around? Don't think I have ever bought a pulley in my life. Usually found something around.
Good luck with the Listeroid. Presume you have found the American site The Lister Engine Forum (http://www.listerengine.com) There is a wealth of knowledge on re-working and maintaining Listeroids there. Worth a read.
I am lucky enough to have an 8/1 Lister and a 7.5hp VA. (aircooled CS) with original alternator. Mains power here is pretty good, but it's a handy standby. Regards, Combustor.