Boringgeoff 15th May 2013, 11:02 AM Hi all,
An ongoing project of mine is to try to identify all the models of brace manufactured by Stanley in Australia, and I need your help. If you have information about an Aussie Stanley that's not listed here please let me know.
Some, but not all, will have Made in Australia,and may include the name Stanley on the chuck. On the bow will be Stanley on one side and on the other, for example, No. A73- 10IN MK2.
Generally our model numbers reflect the British made but are preceded by the letter A.
My experience is the first of a model does not display a MK No, for instance the three in Model A73 will be A73-10IN, A73-10IN MK2 and A73-10IN MK3.
Including the above mentioned here's my list of braces that I know of:
A73-12IN 1,2,3
A78-10IN 1,2,3
A78-12IN 1,2,3
A78-250mm, 300mm
A144-10IN 1,2,3
A144-12IN 1,2,3
Any information will be gratefully received, thank you.
Geoff.
pmcgee 17th May 2013, 01:49 AM Hi Geoff. Is there a tool catalog? Matty (LSBarker) might be a good one to ask.
Can't help much ... I had a look and only had a 78, an A78 and an A144.
I saw two ebay auctions ... they were a "73" and an "811" he says.
I guess 811 is a US model?
Stanley Rosewood Handled Brace and Irwin Auger Bits 1 4" to 1" 2 | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Stanley-rosewood-handled-brace-and-Irwin-auger-bits-1-4-to-1-2-/161018384125?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT&nma=true&si=936Xkf2Gh%252Bcv9tPMFuQOYsakzqM%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc)
Stanley Rosewood Handled Brace and Irwin Auger Bits 1 4" to 1" | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Stanley-rosewood-handled-brace-and-Irwin-auger-bits-1-4-to-1-/161018382774?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT&nma=true&si=936Xkf2Gh%252Bcv9tPMFuQOYsakzqM%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc)
Cheers,
Paul
Boringgeoff 17th May 2013, 11:13 AM Hi Paul,
Yes the 811 would be North American.
The important part of your info that you have Stanleys A78 and A144 is the sweep and the Mark. So if you said that you have, say, an A78-14IN MK 2 I would then know that I need to look out for at least two of the fourteen inch A78s. Currently I am only aware of 10 and 12 inch sweep models here although in the UK they were producing 6 through to 16 inch.
A comprehensive catalogue from Stanley detailing their models and years of manufacture in Australia would be great but so far I've had no joy.
Imagine if you were working for Stanley when they pulled out, and you rescued armfuls of catalogues and other bumf from the skip bin, what a popular chap you would be today.
It's not as if it's ancient history either, as far as I can make out they jumped ship in 2001.
Thanks for your time,
Geoff.
lightwood 17th May 2013, 12:21 PM ...............
Imagine if you were working for Stanley when they pulled out, and you rescued armfuls of catalogues and other bumf from the skip bin, what a popular chap you would be today.
Geoff.
Geoff,
That would be Graeme Plaw.
He can be contacted through the HTPAA
HTPAA :: Office Bearers (http://www.htpaa.org.au/exec.php)
He may be able to help you.
Regards,
Peter
pmcgee 17th May 2013, 12:29 PM Yes the 811 would be North American.
The important part of your info that you have Stanleys A78 and A144 is the sweep and the Mark. So if you said that you have, say, an A78-14IN MK 2 I would then know that I need to look out for at least two of the fourteen inch A78s. Currently I am only aware of 10 and 12 inch sweep models here although in the UK they were producing 6 through to 16 inch.
Ah. I thought you were looking for models other than what you listed.
My two were in your list.
A78 10IN
A144 12IN MK2
Boringgeoff 18th May 2013, 10:14 AM Paul,
Looks like the start of a brace collection you have there...............keep up the good work.........pssst, ya wanna buy a No A73 cheap?
Peter,
Thanks for that lead I'll follow it up.
Geoff.
pmcgee 18th May 2013, 03:32 PM Paul,
Looks like the start of a brace collection you have there...............keep up the good work.........pssst, ya wanna buy a No A73 cheap?
Don't be ridiculous. I have no interest in braces what so ever!
Paul
268359
:q
Boringgeoff 18th May 2013, 09:42 PM You reckless fool....... you're doomed......doomed.....fancy storing your braces near your screwdrivers!!
The one second from the left looks a bit interesting, whose is it? Looks a bit like Millers Falls lion chuck.
Geoff.
pmcgee 18th May 2013, 10:25 PM I thought it said "T. S. & W. Co" ... but it has the same chuck as the end one (16") which is a "SAMSON"
... "P. S. & W. Co"
Peck Stow & Wilcox. "Pexto" ... hilarious :)
Now I remember. I got the little one by chance and liked the chuck on it ... then saw the bigger one and had a go for it online. They feel really solid.
I think it's time we saw a picture of your 'wall of iron' again, Geoff ... so we can keep things in proportion!
Cheers,
Paul
Boringgeoff 20th May 2013, 11:20 AM The PS&W Co road is one I haven't gone down yet, though I do have a couple of theirs accidentally acquired.
Geoff.
Boringgeoff 31st May 2013, 09:06 AM Morning all,
Thanks to a good lead from Lightwood I have been advised that Stanley Australia also made 8 and 14 inch sweep braces.
I don't know about anyone else but I find that information quite interesting.
Geoff.
Vann 31st May 2013, 07:24 PM I don't know about anyone else but I find that information quite interesting.
Geoff.We have to get more people on the Brace & Bit slope Geoff (they're are hanging around the Plane and Saw slopes - especially the saw slope lately !!)
Cheers, Vann (who's been pushed over the brace slope by Geoff :U)
Boringgeoff 1st June 2013, 11:58 AM You forgot to mention chisels Vann.
I'm certainly looking forward to the day when we can openly discuss the subtleties of the Holts fine toothed ratchet or the intricacies of the Stearns hollow auger without having rocks thrown at us.
Or to be able to argue the best method of fettling a Millers Falls No 62.............?
Enough, I can see people becoming BORED with this conversation.
Geoff.
pmcgee 1st June 2013, 02:44 PM You forgot to mention chisels Vann.
I'm certainly looking forward to the day when we can openly discuss ...
Then write, damn you, and do your worst ... :D
I was a bit blown away and thrown closer to that particular edge when you identified the Lion pattern chuck ... :? :shrug:
I had to look that up, didn't I? Landed on quite the little web page, didn't I? Millers Falls Bit Braces: Barber, Amidon, Parsons, etc. (http://oldtoolheaven.com/brace/FeaturedBraces.htm)
I didn't know there were zillions of them!!! I just figured you had the same 6 over and over again. :q :U
Now I see a certain Qlder has a "Miller Falls Lion Patent Wimble Brace" ... noooooo ... I don't even know what 'wimble' means ... aaaaaarrrrrgggghhhhhhh ...
http://toolexchange.com.au/images1/brace8548.jpg
Boringgeoff 1st June 2013, 09:53 PM Hi Paul,
Zillions alright, it's one thing to say I'm going to attempt to build up a full set of Aussie Stanley braces but can you imagine trying to build a set of Millers Falls braces?
I've got a couple of whimble braces neither of which are MF.
A blacksmith at an event last year told me the outfit he works for still get occasional orders to make them for railway maintenance here.
I'm putting some tools together to take to a show at Woodloes Museum, Cannington, on Monday.
Here's a photo to get your heart pounding.
Geoff.
Ausworkshop 3rd October 2013, 10:49 PM I've found a decent range of these Stanley bits made in Aus and still in packet never used. Has 1982 on the pack, so I assume thats the manufacturing date. I will get better pics and size details if anyone's interested. I've been using hand tools more recently so I will keep one of each size for use, the rest I will be selling. My father in law was in hardware for years and has stock left over. Do you think anyone would be interested or is it a waste of time trying to sell these? Do they still make them here? I can't find any info. I will send you a couple for free if your interested Vann, you helped me out with those planes recently so I owe you. I'll find out how many there are, I think he has boxes of them, all still in original pack/boxes.
Vann 4th October 2013, 03:49 AM If they're made in Australia (as it seems to indicate on the packaging) they can't be too bad. The only two companies I know of, still manufacturing square tapered auger bits (i.e. for braces, not power drills), are Stanley Brazil - they make Irwin pattern bits, which are said to be not very good quality, and Clifton (UK) - who make Jennings pattern bits of very good quality, but at a price :o:C.
I know I'd be interested in a set. I'll PM you.
Boringgeoff? You know more about this line of tools than I.
Cheers, Vann.
Boringgeoff 4th October 2013, 10:30 AM Hi Ausworkshop,
I've got a 3 or 4 like that which are also branded 1982 which I assumed was the date. I haven't got round to doing any research on Aus' Stanley bits, but I'm sure there are people here who have. I've got a few Titan auger bits (Aus' made pre Stanley)
What I can say is that there are collectors who love tools in their original packaging, so my suggestion would be to document what you've got and put them up for sale in the Market Place / Auctions section of this Forum and see what interest you get.
Geoff.
DSEL74 4th October 2013, 03:33 PM I've found a decent range of these Stanley bits made in Aus and still in packet never used. Has 1982 on the pack, so I assume thats the manufacturing date. I will get better pics and size details if anyone's interested. I've been using hand tools more recently so I will keep one of each size for use, the rest I will be selling. My father in law was in hardware for years and has stock left over. Do you think anyone would be interested or is it a waste of time trying to sell these? Do they still make them here? I can't find any info. I will send you a couple for free if your interested Vann, you helped me out with those planes recently so I owe you. I'll find out how many there are, I think he has boxes of them, all still in original pack/boxes.
What sizes????
gmoss 5th October 2013, 09:39 AM Ah. I thought you were looking for models other than what you listed.
My two were in your list.
A78 10IN
A144 12IN MK2
I find the story on the braces interesting.
I have three from Grandfather
Stanley No 144 10IN
Stanley No 73 12IN
Also a Skinner Steel 10
All well pre-war. Is it possible to date them? Have not heard of Skinner before. Any information would be welcome.
Graham
Boringgeoff 6th October 2013, 09:26 AM Hi Graham,
Your three were all made in Sheffield England but whether pre war I'm not sure. In the case of Stanley, Stanley USA bought a share of J A Chapman of Sheffield about 1936 -37 and owned them outright by the mid to late 40's. Chapman made an extensive range of good quality braces under their own name and for other British makers including Mathieson, Preston and W'm Marples. They are very common here in Aus'.
At sometime after Stanley's arrival,they started branding their tools with both Chapman and Stanley name but continuing with Chapmans numbering system. Evidence points to Stanley badging tools with Chapman as recently as the 1980's.
144 and 73 are Stanley England numbers (quite different from their US numbers) which I had assumed were post war but could stand corrected on that.
Stanley used their same numbering system on their Australian braces when they came here in 1966, simply putting an A in front of the model No.
The type of jaws used in the No 73 were patented by A Stowell in the USA in 1932.(1,880,521)
Now to Skinner......what I know about this company apart from they are from Sheffield and I have a Skinner brace dated to 1933, is zilch, so if you, or anyone, knows anything about them I'd love to hear it.
Hope this is of some help,
Regards,
Geoff.
pmcgee 6th October 2013, 12:38 PM A quick google turned up a surprising number of links for "Skinner sheffield brace" ...
Some cuckoo on a uk website ... J A Chapman Sheffield info wanted. : Hand Tools - UKworkshop.co.uk (http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/j-a-chapman-sheffield-info-wanted-t51136.html)
Bastad's on here too ... http://www.woodworkforums.com/f152/brace-info-wanted-134702/
And while we're in the UK ... here's our saw-filing buddy mate Andy ... The Humble Hand Brace - A Beginner's Guide to Restoring, Buying and Using #3: Part 3 - Cleaning and Restoring a Brace to 'Like New' Condition - by Brit @ LumberJocks.com ~ woodworking community (http://lumberjocks.com/Brit/blog/25156)
Hmmm ... and it's contagious ... (**)
Vintage Tool Rehab Projects #6: Rehabbing an English Brace (http://lumberjocks.com/planepassion/blog/27699)
Restoring a Skinner 6 (http://handtooljourney.wordpress.com/2012/01/30/restoring-a-skinner-6-brace/)
and ...
Joist Ratchet Brace by Skinner Sheffield | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Joist-ratchet-brace-Skinner-Sheffield-/370888720546)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Carpenters-Ratchet-Corner-Brace-by-Skinner-Sheffield-England-/360642436901?nma=true&si=Qg90bOQfPx%252BCXr5kiFTMbxnJ3us%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
Skinner Ratchet Brace Narrow 6" Swing VGC | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Skinner-Ratchet-brace-narrow-6-swing-VGC-/350892315873)
288345 288346
and a chapman ... J A Chapman Pre Stanley Sheffield England Heavy Duty Ratchet Bit Brace Nice | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/J-A-Chapman-pre-Stanley-Sheffield-England-Heavy-Duty-Ratchet-Bit-Brace-NICE-/121189119507)
288344
Cheers,
Paul
(**)
Of course there's the off-colour joke about the kid who had to make a sentence with the word 'contagious' ...
"That's easy, my dad complains about the new guy at work. 'Ask him to do anything, it'll take the ____' "
:B
gmoss 6th October 2013, 03:55 PM Hi Graham,
Your three were all made in Sheffield England but whether pre war I'm not sure. In the case of Stanley, Stanley USA bought a share of J A Chapman of Sheffield about 1936 -37 and owned them outright by the mid to late 40's. Chapman made an extensive range of good quality braces under their own name and for other British makers including Mathieson, Preston and W'm Marples. They are very common here in Aus'.
At sometime after Stanley's arrival,they started branding their tools with both Chapman and Stanley name but continuing with Chapmans numbering system. Evidence points to Stanley badging tools with Chapman as recently as the 1980's.
144 and 73 are Stanley England numbers (quite different from their US numbers) which I had assumed were post war but could stand corrected on that.
Stanley used their same numbering system on their Australian braces when they came here in 1966, simply putting an A in front of the model No.
The type of jaws used in the No 73 were patented by A Stowell in the USA in 1932.(1,880,521)
Now to Skinner......what I know about this company apart from they are from Sheffield and I have a Skinner brace dated to 1933, is zilch, so if you, or anyone, knows anything about them I'd love to hear it.
Hope this is of some help,
Regards,
Geoff.
Thanks for the information. Very interesting. The No 144-10 IN is in fact branded J A Chapman by Stanley Works GB Ltd.
I also have a No 78- 10 IN
Do the numbers give an indication of date first produced?
Regards Graham
Boringgeoff 7th October 2013, 09:36 AM You've gone to a lot of trouble posting those links Paul, but has it increased our knowledge of Skinner? The answer is, of course, no.
Your link to the Chapman brace on ebay is interesting, in his blurb the vendor says "..........1936 and lacking any Stanley markings this brace would be prior to this date." Not true for a number of reasons. Stanleys track record in other company takeovers show that they continued to make tools under the "victims" name for some time.
Graham, in answer to your question re the age of your braces the answer is I don't know. I was tending towards post war but on the other hand Stanley may have started producing the 73 and 78 the moment they got a foot in the pommie door.
They arrived there only 2 - 3 years before the outbreak of the war which would have curtailed development of new models as they buckled down to essential production for the war effort. There is such a huge number of "Chapman by Stanley" branded braces around that it seems to me that they (Stanley) were trying to ease their name into the market. Introduction of the dual branded No 144 followed by the Stanley 144 would have been their first move, I think, which is why I'm leaning towards the 73 and 78 being post war.
There is a gent in UK who is writing a book about the history of Chapman, which I am looking forward to reading, that will, hopefully, shed some light on the subject.
Forums like this are a valuable resource where you pick up grains of information about braces, hidden in the interminable chaff of planes, saws, chisels etc.
And there are a lot of very knowledgeable people on this site. Take my friend pmcgee (please somebody take him) for example, he has a prodigious knowledge of the internet and is continually posting links to interesting sites, why right now, as we speak, he is researching my mystery tool posted in the Antique and Collectible Tools and Machinery Forum.
Way to go Paul!
Sorry about the levity and the brevity Graham and thanks for helping to keep this thread alive.
Regards,
Geoff.
Doggie 8th October 2013, 12:01 AM Hi all,
Any information will be gratefully received, thank you.
Geoff.
I don't collect them and no nothing about them however, if it is any use the information in the 1969 "Stanley/Titan Storekeepers price list states:-
A73 came with 10", 12", and 14" sweeps - (1968/69 McPherson's does not use the A but has the same number and sizes)
A78 came with the same as above - (1968/69 McPherson's does not use the A but has the same number and sizes plus an 8" sweep)
A144 BF came with 8", 10" and 12" sweeps - (1968/69 McPherson's does not use the A but has the same number and sizes)
66B came with 10" sweep
You probably know this already.
Boringgeoff 8th October 2013, 09:42 AM Hi Doggie,
Every little bit of info helps I reckon. Now I'm wondering what the BF stands for on the 144.
My notes suggest that Stanley may have sourced the 66B from their British works, which may also be the case with the 78 8" in the McPhersons catalogue.
Thanks for your interest.
Regards,
Geoff.
Doggie 8th October 2013, 12:32 PM Hi Doggie,
Every little bit of info helps I reckon. Now I'm wondering what the BF stands for on the 144.
.
In the price list the A73, A78 are noted as "Nickel plated finish". The A144 BF is listed as "Polished Finish". The 66B is "Bright Steel" finish. Maybe this has something to do with it.
Rgds Dick
Boringgeoff 9th October 2013, 08:36 AM Yes, must be Bright Finish.
Geoff.
stuffy 9th October 2013, 05:27 PM Hey Geoff,
How about a show and tell of your collection?
I've got a few braces, maybe 20 or thirty, but they all look the same to me. A bit of knowledge of the different chucks etc, would make them more interesting.
Thanks
Steve.
Boringgeoff 10th October 2013, 10:01 AM Hi Steve,
That's probably something I should think about doing but I'm a bit dubious about posting photos of a brace unless it's one that someone has specifically asked about. At the moment the bulk of my collection is in crates and boxes waiting for the dedicated tool room I'm building in my shed, or ready to go to the next show. (Katanning 26th October) Once the room is finished and the tools more visible it'll be easier to do.
Twenty or thirty braces makes you a collector too I reckon, and you're right, there are lots of chucks that look the same but when you come to use them you realise there are big differences in their tool holding ability.
Stanley make good braces, and why wouldn't they? They bought up some of the best American and British brace making companies over the years.
Geoff.
stuffy 10th October 2013, 03:07 PM Not a collector, Geoff, just a horder. I don't actively seek them out they just seem to accumulate.
:-
hiroller 1st May 2014, 11:50 PM Is there any information on what the differences are between the different Stanley brace models.
What is the difference between the 73 and 78. Did they have a difference focus or is one a premium model with extra ball bearings and/or a better chuck. The UK also made a 75 model. How does it compare.
I can't seem to find anything online.
Boringgeoff 2nd May 2014, 11:10 AM Hi Hiroller,
They are both good quality user braces and the only difference between the 73 and 78 are the style of jaws they're equipped with.
The 78 uses the "conventional" type that has a wire spring running down the spine of one jaw, does a U turn at the bottom and back up the spine of the other jaw. This serves the purpose of forcing the jaws apart as the chuck shell is unscrewed (opened). The perceived problem with this style is that if you are using a modern cylindrical shank twist drill and exerting a lot of force on the bit you can cause it to slide down and damage the spring where it crosses between the two jaws.
To overcome this problem and also to enable the jaws to open in a more parallel manner when required, No 73 uses a spring that comes down the back of the jaw as usual but instead of turning back up the other jaw it does a right angle turn to the side and goes half way round the shaft and then comes back up the second jaw. You will see by this method, should you force the shank of the bit to the bottom of the jaws the spring is out of harms way. The shaft of the brace between the chuck and the ratchet is substantially thinner to accommodate the spring than on the No 78.
This style of jaw was patented by A Stowell, an employee of Stanley USA on the 13 September 1929 (1,880,521) which was an improvement on the 1918 patent of H E Parker (1,270,754). Used on various models in USA the Stowell jaws were introduced to England in the No 73 and later to Australia as the A73.
Both 73 and 78 have various improvements (?) such as plastic heads and handles denoted by MK 2 and 3 after their sweep sizes, which range from 5 to 14 inches in the British sizes and 10 to 14 in Australia. Stanley Australia also had some metric sweep sizes 250 and 300 and 350 mm.
Concerning No 75, just looking at the two, I can see no difference between it and No 78, so can't help you much there, but as usual I'm hoping that someone who does know more will stick his /her five bob's worth in right here...........
Cheers,
Geoff.
pmcgee 6th May 2014, 01:52 PM You're waiting for someone who knows *more*. Ummmmm ... :roll:
:)
Paul
Vann 6th May 2014, 02:53 PM Not a collector, Geoff, just a horder. I don't actively seek them out they just seem to accumulate.
:-Yup, same here.
I bought a Record eggbeater last week...
312740
...it came with two of the damned things. A Stanley No.81 10" and an un-named 10" marked British Made. Both in good nick, but the No.81 has no jaws :~.
But they're not Aussie braces, so this is off-topic :q.
Cheers, Vann.
Boringgeoff 7th May 2014, 12:12 PM Vann,
how can a brace be in good nick if it's got no jaws? That's an oxymoron, a bit like a boomerang that won't come back.....a stick.
I used to think an oxymoron was a guy that didn't know how to use a gas axe.
I'll have a look and see if I've got a spare set and get back to you.
Cheers
Geoff.
Vann 7th May 2014, 12:25 PM how can a brace be in good nick if it's got no jaws?You're right of course Geoff. :doh: I was referring to the bits that are still there. So I'll rephrase that: "It's in good nick, apart from having no jaws" or if you prefer "It would be in good nick if it had jaws". :roll:
Cheers, Vann :U
Picko 7th May 2014, 02:51 PM Just checked my two only braces Geoff but can't help. My latest model which I bought new in the seventies is an A78 12in Mk3. My second is an old one of my fathers that I've never looked closely at until now.
So off topic I'm sorry - it is a No 102 from JOHN SIFRAY & CO BRIDGEPORT CONN USA (if I'm reading the very faint text correctly)
Boringgeoff 9th May 2014, 10:53 AM Vann,
I was having a look in my "spare parts" braces for a set of jaws for your No 81 and suddenly realised I've got about 7 Stanleys with no jaws, you and I could start the Jaws Are Missing Brace Owners Club (JAMBOC). PmGee has got a jawless Millers Falls No 732, so he could join as well.......hmmmm.
No, that wouldn't work, people would deliberately remove the jaws from their braces to become eligible to join.
Thanks Picko, an A78 12IN Mk3 purchased in the 70's is helpful info in dating these Aussie Stanleys.
Cheers,
Geoff.
Vann 9th May 2014, 09:44 PM Vann,
I was having a look in my "spare parts" braces for a set of jaws for your No 81 and suddenly realised I've got about 7 Stanleys with no jaws...That's okay Geoff, thanks for looking. I will have to cull my... err... assemblage of braces one day. One of the crank handle collars disintergrated on my 8" Skinner recently, so that's going to get stripped for parts, along with a few other hopeless cases. Maybe the jaws from one of those will fit. And my sole Millers Falls brace (a 12") is also jawless.
Of course, having foreign jaws in various chucks will confuse future tool collectors and archeologists alike...
Cheers, Vann.
Boringgeoff 12th May 2014, 11:18 AM Vann,
That's a valid point, most makers offered replacement jaws or alternative jaws ie plain or alligator. When identifying a brace you can't really rely on the jaw style unless you've got a number of examples to look at.
The one in my No 81 is Mitchells 1911 US patent (1011227) assigned to the Stanley Rule and Level Co and widely adopted by them. This is what you're looking for, about 2 5/16 in long and a touch under 7/16 thick.
313311
Cheers,
Geoff.
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