New toy

[Quickchip]

I have wanted a lathe for quite a while. This weekend my uncle called and said he found one for me. If I could make it run, I could have it.

Its a j.a.fay egan lightening 400. It is in about 50 pieces, but looks to be complete. Does anyone have any info on the machine? Is it worth refurbing?

Thanks

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[orraloon]

Hi Quickchip,
Is it anything like this one.
http://www.penturners.org/olduploads/ken69912001/200791405840_DSC03953.JPG
I did a quick google and found a few examples. While I have never heard of the brand before that one in the pick looks to be a solid well made machine and would be worth a bit of effort.
Regards
John

[Christos]

If's it for free yes it's worth some time to see if you can fix it. Do continue to post along with progress photos.

[Quickchip]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/06/01/ase6e8az.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/06/01/7yje6e9a.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/06/01/yne2ahem.jpgWell you guys made a good point. I should post pictures as I rebuild it. So here are the pictures of what I am starting from.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/06/01/8y7enepu.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/06/01/my5uguja.jpg
You should also understand the whole story. First there are two lathes not one. The motors are three phase 220v which neither of us have at our homes. There is also some sort of funky speed switching system involved.

The deal is, I tinker with them, get them working 220v single phase and I can keep one of them. So they are not totally free.

Right now the plan is to make sure the motors are good then hook the high speed coils to an inverter and start making cool stuff.

I would just change the motor but if you look closely you will see that the motor is some sort of direct drive set up so changing the motor is not an option.

Anyway here are the first pictures.

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[chuck1]

wow! I would make one long lathe out of them! hope you have some spare time! looks fun! even if you spend some dollars you will have the best set up!

[ian thorn]

For what is worth heres my opinion. Have a think about how much you may have to spend as well as the time,do you have to make both into working order, then have a look around to see what a going second hand one would cost, contact a local club they may be able to help.the photos you have posted looks like a solid lathe apart from the headstock motor setup :o but if you want a project go for it just be aware of the cost to value .dont be put off by one persons negative view its just that im a bit careful haveing been down the cheap way before.

Ian

[Quickchip]

Thanks for the comments. Right now I figure if the motors are good then I am simply a vfd from making chips, if not....might be a little more creativity needed.


The motor has 9 wires, almost like a 220-480 motor would have, but the plate only says 220. I am thinking it is wound like a 220-480 motor, and you get the variable speeds by putting the 220 power to the 480 coils to produce the lower speeds. Any of you guys have experience with a direct drive, variable speed motor like this?

ADDED BY ADMIN



DISCLAIMER


No liability is accepted by UBeaut or the Wood Working Forum's administrators
or moderators for advice offered by members posting replies
or asking questions regarding electrical work.
We strongly advise contacting a Licensed Tradeperson for all electrical work.

WARNING


Information supplied within posts is not to be considered as detailed formal instructions to complete a task.
Members following such information do so at their own risk

[Paul39]

Quickchip,

It is possible the motors have three windings and are 3 speed. Delta connected 3 phase motors have 3 wires. The ground would go only to the frame. Look carefully on the plate to see if it gives speeds and phase.

Be very careful to be sure you have connected them correctly before you put electricity to them. If the magic smoke comes out it would be cheaper to buy a new lathe than to have the motor rewound.

Are you in Kentucky, USA or Kentucky, NSW, AU?

That bed and leg combination is wonderful. That will be a good lathe.

What is the center height from bed to the middle of the spindle?

I found this:

Photo Index - J. A. Fay & Egan Co. - "Lightning 400" | VintageMachinery.org (http://vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/detail.aspx?id=12829)

Fay egan - Yakaz For sale (http://for-sale.yakaz.com/fay-egan#lo=4&docid=000bf22mocusunag)

Photo Index - J. A. Fay & Egan Co. - Model 400 | VintageMachinery.org (http://vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/detail.aspx?id=14837)

Photo Index - J. A. Fay & Egan Co. - 400? | VintageMachinery.org (http://vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/detail.aspx?id=5660)

One of the sites above says the lathe is a four speed. Make very sure about what your motors are before hooking anything up. Look carefully to see if there are any numbers on the wires.

I'll keep searching to find a wiring diagram.

[Quickchip]

Thanks paul. Im in kentucky usa. It is in pieces but the center looks to be about 8 inches.

It is four speed ill post some pictures of the motor plate and the wiring diagram I sketched. The actual diagram was in a tight spot and couldnt get a picture. It does say it was drawn in 1930.http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/06/02/mytebevu.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/06/02/2ybeveba.jpg

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[Paul39]

I found this:

4 speed motor help- wire ID? (http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/transformers-phase-converters-vfd/4-speed-motor-help-wire-id-180534/)

I belong to the PM site. You may have to join to see photos. I have not ever had any bad junk come from being a member.

http://vintagemachinery.org/MfgIndex/Images/740-B.jpg

Photo Index - J. A. Fay & Egan Co. - 400? | VintageMachinery.org (http://vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/detail.aspx?id=5660)

Note: "The original switch gear was missing and the machine was a basket case at that time, however the 4 speed, 3 phase motor was still functional so I brought it back from the weeds."

You could use a VFD to run the multiple speed motor on the lathe as long as you shut down the VFD, changed the speed on the motor, and then ran the lathe with the VFD.

If you are in Kentucky, USA, once you are finished building your lathe, I would be interested in what ever is left of the second lathe. If you get discouraged I would consider trading a plug and play Hegner 175 for what you have.

My Hegner is like this, but with a solid bed. 13 3/4 inch / 350mm swing, around 36 inches between centers:

http://houtdraaienindehaarlemmermeer.nl/active/arie/shoparie_1.jpg

[Quickchip]

Paul

So I can use a vfd, but cant switch the speed with the motor running?

I owe the second lathe to my uncle, but he may want to sell it ill let you know.

Also what did you mean by pm site?

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[Paul39]

You were posting while I was writing. The diagram is a gold plated gift. It would be most interesting to put together without it.

There is nothing like lots of cast iron in a lathe. You have a good one, or two if there is enough stuff to go around.

I don't know how knowledgeable you are about old motors and mechanical stuff. I hope I am not insulting you with my suggestions.

Old motors often will have leads with the insulation crumbling off. Heat shrink tubing slid over the old wire and heated with a hair dryer will save that. If you are skilled, you can go back to where the wire is coming out of the winding and solder new wires in.

I have read in Practical Machinist the procedure for cleaning and putting an old motor back in service. Just did a quick search and can't find it. 3 phase motors are easy, rotor, stator windings and housing. No capacitors or start winding and centrifugal switch.

[Paul39]

Paul

So I can use a vfd, but cant switch the speed with the motor running?

I owe the second lathe to my uncle, but he may want to sell it ill let you know.

Also what did you mean by pm site?

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VFDs do not like anything between them and the motor, I think if the flow of electricity is interrupted it blows the VFD. The VFD varies the speed of the motor, but if the motor is using a fan to cool itself, when you run motor slowly it gets hot.

I turn mostly bowls. On the 5 speed Hegner the slowest speed is 800 rpm. I usually do the whole bowl at that, if it is a smaller one with soft wood, once I have gotten it roughed out I might go to the next speed - 1400 - to finish. With spindles, as I am mostly using split logs, I do the same. Once or twice in 5 years I have gone up to the 3rd speed.

My 20 inch swing Woodfast has variable speed and 5 speed pulley set. I start very slowly in first speed with big out of balance blanks, go up in speed using the variable, then go to the second pulley and vary the speed to suit.

There are great discussions about using VFDs on old motors not made for VFDs. My take on it is if you are using the VFD to run the motor from 50% to 125% of the plate RPM you won't get into trouble.

Practical Machinist site: Practical Machinist - Largest Manufacturing Technology Forum on the Web (http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/)

Forum on motors and VFDs: Transformers, Phase Converters and VFD (http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/transformers-phase-converters-vfd/)

[L.S.Barker1970]

They are nice Lathes, pretty sure they are 400 D's.

http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae301/matty355/sc00023abe_zps27d8782d.jpg

Melbourne Matty.

[Quickchip]

Ls

I agree everything I see points to the machine being a 400 d. Even found a place to register their serial numbers. I might do that once they are running.



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[Quickchip]

Paul,

If I hook the vfd to the low speen and run between 50 and 125 percent of speed as you suggested that puts me at about 860-2300 rpms. Is that a reasonable range? Havent done a lot of lathe work, so I dont know.

The other option is to go through the original switch as a two position after the vfd to switch between high and low ranges. You would have to stop the machine to change the range of course. That would givw me a low range of 860-2300 and a high range of 1900-4750. Does this seem like it would work to you?

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[Paul39]

Paul,

If I hook the vfd to the low speen and run between 50 and 125 percent of speed as you suggested that puts me at about 860-2300 rpms. Is that a reasonable range? Havent done a lot of lathe work, so I dont know.

The other option is to go through the original switch as a two position after the vfd to switch between high and low ranges. You would have to stop the machine to change the range of course. That would givw me a low range of 860-2300 and a high range of 1900-4750. Does this seem like it would work to you?

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For what I do the low speed would do fine. If you were going to do small spindles like pens, you might want to go higher. There is lots of conversation about turning speeds on the forum.

I would not run the motor faster than its original highest speed. Do you know if it has ball or roller bearings or plain bearings? Plain bearings means shaft running in bronze or Babbitt with oil supplied by a well and felt or an oil cup.

It would be good to remove everything from the shafts of the motor, file off any big burrs, then using 400 grit paper like a shoe shine rag and light oil slick up the shafts protruding from the bell ends of the motor.

Then remove the ends and check the bearings. If ball or tapered roller clean out with varsol, kerosene, diesel fuel, and and repack with grease.

If plain bearings, clean with above solvent and put a little shine on the shaft with the 400 grit and oil. Very carefully wipe off the shaft with a clean rag and oil 2 - 3 times to be sure no grit gets on the bearing surface.

I have one of the versions of the Teco Westinghouse VFDs below:

Compact Micro AC Drive<BR>1/4 to 3hp, Single or 3 phase <BR>TECO EV/JNEV Series | Search All AC Drives | Marshall Wolf Automation, Inc. (http://www.wolfautomation.com/products/28926/compact-micro-ac-drivebr14-to-3hp-single-or-3-phase-brteco-evjnev-series)

You want the Sensorless Vector version which maintains the rpm selected under varying load. I have one on a 1 hp motor that I have tested but not run much. I have seen others recommend them.

Several firms have them at various prices.

Note the admonition by the admin added to your first post. If you are not comfortable doing your own electrical work get some competent help.

As I mentioned above, if you kill one of those motors it will be expensive to repair.

Make sure the motor frame and lathe are grounded. Stray 240 volts can give you a good whack, and under the right circumstances kill you.

I am adding the cautions as I do not know how experienced you are, you may be an electrical contractor or totally inexperienced.

I have been messing with motors, transformers, and wiring photo studios, darkrooms, houses and shops for around 55 years.

I'm looking forward to seeing the lathes together and working.

[Quickchip]

Heres a small update on the progress.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/06/22/yqajesy7.jpg

As you can see, one of them is together and I have way too much **** in my garage. There is good news and bad news.

Good news:

Looks like all the necessary pieces are present for both machines. There also seems to be a fair amount of tooling as well.

Bad news:

The motors are burned up and will require rewinding before they will work. The price of this is out of my reach for now. I do however have a plan. I intend to mount another motor to the frame and drive the out board side of the original motor with a v belt. This will allow me to use the lathe and keep the unit in tact until I can afford to rewind the motor. My boss at work has allowed me to take what is needed to do this from the spare parts area of the factory. Because of his generosity I will have a working lathe at no cost.

Its not the ideal solution. I would much rather it work in original order. I think there is something cool abiut restoring and old (1930's) machine back to original working order.

Ill post more pictures as I get further along.

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[Paul39]

Quickchip,


The motors are burned up and will require rewinding before they will work. The price of this is out of my reach for now. I do however have a plan. I intend to mount another motor to the frame and drive the out board side of the original motor with a v belt.

Good solution. Be sure the wires in the sick motor are capped so that any residual magnetism does not make it into a generator and give you a tickle.

As there are several windings in the motor, when you get to having it rewound, ask if it could be wound as a 120 or 240 3 phase. You could then put a variable frequency drive on it and have a modern variable speed lathe for far less than buying a new one of that weight and rigidity.

I am still interested in the extra one if you wish to sell it.

You do not have too much stuff in your garage until you can't see the floor.

I once helped an auctioneer friend dispose of an estate. When the basement door was opened, the opening was filled with boxes of stuff to the ceiling. The basement was packed solid. THAT is too much stuff.

[Quickchip]

The second lathe is my uncles. Make me an offer and ill see if he wants to sell.

In regards to the amount of stuff in my garage, im forwarding your comments to my wife. Haha

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[Paul39]

The second lathe is my uncles. Make me an offer and ill see if he wants to sell.

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