The Chinese experience

[th62]

I started this thread so as not to dilute Anorak Bob's DTI thread; although I think it may be a tad late for that. All my measuring equipment, lathe and most of my tools are Chinese; I’ve never had a problem with them. Last night I disassembled my DI and gave it a clean and a service, although the clear plastic face will need some polishing, it still works fine. I bought it about 20 years ago, so I'm not sure if it's Chinese or Taiwanese but I only paid $30 for it so I'm guessing it is indeed Chinese (the writing all looks the same to me). My VC I bought from Aldi about 5 years ago, it has been dropped many times and now is quite scratched and the face is cracked but it works fine. It gets dunked in coolant regularly and ceases to function correctly every now and then, but a quick blow through with air gets it running again. All my micrometers are also Chinese, I bought an inner and outer 25mm around 20 years ago and both are still working fine. My other four micrometers I bought about a year or so later and the same can be said of them. My new IP54 rated VC arrived from China yesterday. It is branded Beiliang and was only $21 so I wasn't expecting too much, but surprise, surprise, the finish and quality is quite impressive, so much so, that I will now consciously look for that brand when looking at other tools. On other tools, I went though four 4” and 5” angle grinders, mostly Makita, in about five years a few years ago, it was starting to get a little expensive so I bought a $29 cheapy. I still have it and it works as good as it did all those years ago. Maybe I’m lucky, although I still haven’t won lotto, but I’ve never had a problem with any of my Chinese tools. So for me at least ‘When your on a good thing, stick to it.

[nearnexus]

I've got brand name and Chinese measuring devices and they both work equally as well for me. The brand name is invariably better finished, and the slides feel smoother, but they seem to measure just as accurately within the tolerance levels I work to - 0.001 ".

So no complaints from me. If you can buy good stuff second hand, then it's a wise purchase, but with the Chinese stuff you don't have to feel nervous about dropping it.

My brand name stuff is NSK, Mitutoyo and a bit of old Pommy stuff in the big micrometer range.

I certainly wouldn't rubbish the Asian stuff.

Rob

[Pete F]

Sorry I don't really see the point in this. Some people buy things simply as they were inexpensive, then spend the rest of their time trying to justify in their own minds how it is "just as good" as a quality, well made brand name. They're not as good, know it, live it, and move on.

Most people would not argue the fact that an S series Mercedes is a better quality car than a Great Wall POS or similar, yet both will normally get you from point A to point B in exactly the same time ie functionally they're the same, but the experience while getting from point A to point B is vastly different. So it is with tools. If I take, say a Tesa or Mitutoyo caliper I can be assured that straight out of the box it should work, and it should be accurate ie I can trust it, if not they're faulty and can be repaired. In contrast I bought 3 Aldi calipers, I've only bothered unpacking 1, it was rubbish. The problem is it skips, so is unreliable, so can't be trusted. The finish on it was crap, and I won't even use it for its intended function of parts. So that was some $65 (as I bought 3) that is now wasted. So is the same old story with so many cheap Chinese products I've bought, it's the tooling equivalent of buying a lotto ticket; maybe they'll work, maybe they won't work. That's a chance that we take when buying them.

Pete

[Alaks McGREGORE]

Sorry I don't really see the point in this. Some people buy things simply as they were inexpensive, then spend the rest of their time trying to justify in their own minds how it is "just as good" as a quality, well made brand name. They're not as good, know it, live it, and move on.

Most people would not argue the fact that an S series Mercedes is a better quality car than a Great Wall POS or similar, yet both will normally get you from point A to point B in exactly the same time ie functionally they're the same, but the experience while getting from point A to point B is vastly different. So it is with tools. If I take, say a Tesa or Mitutoyo caliper I can be assured that straight out of the box it should work, and it should be accurate ie I can trust it, if not they're faulty and can be repaired. In contrast I bought 3 Aldi calipers, I've only bothered unpacking 1, it was rubbish. The problem is it skips, so is unreliable, so can't be trusted. The finish on it was crap, and I won't even use it for its intended function of parts. So that was some $65 (as I bought 3) that is now wasted. So is the same old story with so many cheap Chinese products I've bought, it's the tooling equivalent of buying a lotto ticket; maybe they'll work, maybe they won't work. That's a chance that we take when buying them.

Pete
Often, and almost all the time if you buy the right chines products you will have something just as good for the same prise or sometimes even more then half prise, and china is getting better with there things, but hay, who am I to change your ways?

[th62]

Well I’d have to say that is absolute nonsense, Pete F, but like Alaks says – who am I to try and change your thinking. Your response does raise a question though, if you don’t see the point in it, why bother replying, I don’t see the point in that - Know it, live it, and move on. I had a similar experience to you with TVs, except that the TV in question was NEC, within 3 weeks it was in for repairs and that continued on for another 12 months so I replaced it with a Soniq, haven’t had any problems since. Most of the brand names in anything are now made in China, so where does that leave us?

[Pete F]

Often, and almost all the time if you buy the right chines products you will have something just as good for the same prise or sometimes even more then half prise, and china is getting better with there things, but hay, who am I to change your ways?

What would be the "right" Chinese products?

If you honestly believe that a cheap Chinese product is "just as good" as a quality western made product, then knock yourself out. I honestly have no dog in this fight and couldn't care how much crap other people choose to surround themselves with. I mentioned as much on the indicator thread, please nobody buy a Compac indicator or any other quality used western tooling, instead buy a cheap POS Chinese indicator then spend the rest of the time justifying to yourself how it's "just the same", how smart you are, and how stupid I am. That way the used market won't go through the roof, driven up by people who don't appreciate quality when they see it. :wink:

Pete

Edit: Incidentally, I think a lot of people don't seem to get the point that just because something has a brand name xxx on it, it doesn't necessarily mean it's good quality. MANY companies are currently cashing in on their names by moving their manufacturing to cheap countries of origin and the quality is definitely decreasing. The devil is in the detail, I said quality western manufacturing, not just something that happens to have a western name stuck on the front.

[Pete F]

Whatever, I wont argue.

Then why post again? Incidentally both of you were being quite presumptuous about my buying habits. I'm no tool snob and I can assure you plenty of Chinese tools exist in my workshop, so I don't know what "ways" you were anticipating changing? However when I buy a cheap tool, I appreciate that's what it is, a cheap tool, and don't try to kid myself that it's "just as good" as a quality brand. Very often however it's "good enough" for what I need.

[PDW]

However when I buy a cheap tool, I appreciate that's what it is, a cheap tool, and don't try to kid myself that it's "just as good" as a quality brand. Very often however it's "good enough" for what I need.

Yes - I bought one of those Bunning special circular saws. I needed to cut a lot of roofing iron and didn't want to bugger up my good saws.

The saw was horrible, noisy, vibrated badly - but it got the job done and when it dies, I'll shed no tears. $40.

OTOH when my Metabo angle grinder died, I was *not* happy. So what if it was 15+ years old and had been thrashed.

PDW

[Big Shed]

I think it is rather simplistic to judge the quality of any item on its' country of origin.

If I read the above correctly when I buy a car I shouldn't buy a cheap Chinese made Great Wall, but instead buy a car made in a country that knows something about engineering and making quality cars.

So I should go out and buy a Volkswagen, Skoda or Audi shouldn't I.

They stand behind their products and if something should go wrong they will recall my car and make sure I am safe, won't they?

But then they are so well made and by a reputable manufacturer, what could possibly go wrong?

Come to think of it, I did once buy a car made in the UK, by a very reputable manufacturer and quite frankly even the Chinese couldn't make a car as bad as that Rover! In fact with the money I spent on repairing that "luxury" POS I could buy a Great Wall and have quite a bit of change.

Disclosre:

We own 2 cars, one made by Holden in Australia (well assembled at least, 80% of the bits come out of God knows where) the other made by Hyundai in Korea.
Let me tell you that the Koreans seem to know more about putting a car together than the reputable manufacturer in Australia.

[PDW]

Come to think of it, I did once buy a car made in the UK, by a very reputable manufacturer and quite frankly even the Chinese couldn't make a car as bad as that Rover! In fact with the money I spent on repairing that "luxury" POS I could buy a Great Wall and have quite a bit of change.

Amen. I once owned a Land Rover then a Range Rover. The 2 worst vehicles I have ever owned in my life. Never, ever again.

For sheer reliability I'd give the prize to my old 1970 Datsun 1600 sedan. I bought it at 60,000 miles on the clock, drove it for over 100,000 miles and did no mechanical repairs at all, just changed the oil, brakes etc. Sold it for more than I paid for it, wish I still had it. Though my 22 year old Subaru 4WD sedan is much more comfortable.

However let's not lose sight of the fact that H&F, Bunnings etc do in fact sell a lot of total crap. The sad thing is that if you weren't buying a suspect quality new Chinese lathe, you wouldn't be buying a new lathe at all, not in the hobbyist price bracket. With all their shortcomings, I think we're still in front.

PDW

[Big Shed]

Yes, places like Bunnings do sell a lot of crap, but mainly because we keep buying it.

We can't blame the Chinese entirely for that either, Bunnings contribute their fair share to the situation.

My son works for an iconic Australian company and Bunnings used to buy a lot of their output.

Bunnings then decided they could make a few more dollars and sent one of the main products to China where it was copied to the last bolt (including 2 design faults!) and Bunnings then imported these by the container load.

That Australian factory is no longer manufacturing.:no:

[th62]

Wow, your really fired up there Pete F, you must have had a really bad day. I must apologise for starting this 'no point' thread, tell you what, why don't you make up a list of subjects that you think do have a point and post them here, that way I can restrict my threads to something that is pleasing to you and avoid aggravating your sensibilities. Can't be fairer than that!

[Oldneweng]

I think it is rather simplistic to judge the quality of any item on its' country of origin.

If I read the above correctly when I buy a car I shouldn't buy a cheap Chinese made Great Wall, but instead buy a car made in a country that knows something about engineering and making quality cars.

So I should go out and buy a Volkswagen, Skoda or Audi shouldn't I.

They stand behind their products and if something should go wrong they will recall my car and make sure I am safe, won't they?

But then they are so well made and by a reputable manufacturer, what could possibly go wrong?

Come to think of it, I did once buy a car made in the UK, by a very reputable manufacturer and quite frankly even the Chinese couldn't make a car as bad as that Rover! In fact with the money I spent on repairing that "luxury" POS I could buy a Great Wall and have quite a bit of change.

Disclosre:

We own 2 cars, one made by Holden in Australia (well assembled at least, 80% of the bits come out of God knows where) the other made by Hyundai in Korea.
Let me tell you that the Koreans seem to know more about putting a car together than the reputable manufacturer in Australia.

I would skip the VW. They are getting a bad name at the moment with car recalls that they are very slow in offering.

I have heard a lot of bad publicity about UK cars. A lot of the must have cars like Rover and MG are crap cars to drive.

Good post

Dean

[Techo1]

Bunnings then decided they could make a few more dollars and sent one of the main products to China where it was copied to the last bolt (including 2 design faults!) and Bunnings then imported these by the container load.

That Australian factory is no longer manufacturing.:no:

Are you saying that the Australian made product had design faults before the Chinese copied it?

[morrisman]

Amen. I once owned a Land Rover then a Range Rover. The 2 worst vehicles I have ever owned in my life. Never, ever again.



PDW

Land Rovers are still being made in Solihull, Birmingham, to this very day . They must have done something right to be in continous production from 1948 to today , with well over one million made .

I use a 1950 Land Rover as a tractor/workhorse, it is unrestored and original, still starts first pop . All I did was replace the points , clean spark plugs, and new oil etc. Not bad for a 63 year old car . The Aluminium body panels don't rust away like the Jap crap does . The LR has a PTO too , with a belt , you can run any number of farm machines or implements off it .

BTW , I can remove the LR bonnet in 30 seconds flat , it is hinged on heavy galvanised hinges , you lift the bonnet, slide it sideways a few inches and it is off , try doing that in any other car . The top is either a soft top or hard top ... with many other body options. The front guards come off in 5 minutes too .

Mike

[Machtool]

Wow, your really fired up there Pete F, you must have had a really bad day. I must apologise for starting this 'no point' thread, tell you what, why don't you make up a list of subjects that you think do have a point and post them here, that way I can restrict my threads to something that is pleasing to you and avoid aggravating your sensibilities. Can't be fairer than that!

Thats a really crap argument, and I dont see where Pete F has has a bad day. This is a far cry from his bad day.

Between this thread and Bob's thread. Its apparent that any thing chinese is good enough for you. If thats the case, just go with that.

However if you have never had the pleasure of working with some of the normal, industry standard, certified instruments, who would be none the wiser.

[th62]

Funnily enough, the Golf wins best car in class just about every year, I think the Land or Range Rover does too. You would think the reviewers would put some weight on the reliability issues; it’s not as if it's a big secret. I read the other day that VW are finally going to do something about the issues plaguing some owners.

[th62]

Thanks for those words of wisdom Machtool, I shall cherish them forever.

[RETIRED]

Behave kiddies.:D

[cba_melbourne]

The problem with Chinese products is that it is very difficult to predict quality. You can get high quality made in China, and you can get crap quality. And the price is NOT always a reliable indicator. Some dealers sell crap at inflated prices. I have never come across high quality products from China at a discount price, though.

- My two cordless Metabo drills are made in China. They work well. Cost $500 each if I recall well.
- I have several Chinese digital calipers (unlicensed copies of the Swiss Silvac). I use them for rough work, one rests constantly at the bandsaw. I am happy with them for the money. No, they do NOT move as silky smooth as my Mitutoyo absolute. They come with crap alkaline batteries that barely last one month. And even proper Silver cells do not last too long. But these Chinese calipers are still excellent value for money.
- I also bought three digital calipers from Aldi, absolute crap quality, ALL 3 failed within 6 months. Mind you, I consider myself quite experienced with Chinese calipers, between lathe and mill I have 5 modified and miniaturized Chinese calipers for DRO scales, with displays removed to save room. If I say the Aldi calipers are crap, I know exactly what I am talking about. Lesson learned.
- Some 6 years ago I bought a Chinese machinist protractor. Spent hours carefully de-burring it and turning it into something useable. Yes it reads angles, but it is no joy to use. Then about one year ago I bought a Starrett protractor, old and used, with engraved previous owner name. It is like day and night, vastly superior in every respect, a pleasure to use, easy and accurate to clamp etc etc. That is a used protractor probably 20 years old, a new one would be even better. Lesson learned.
- In a shop I recently had a look a Chinese vernier caliper. Machining marks and burrs, and a jerky motion. How can you take an accurate measurement without any feeling for the force applied?
- I remember once buying a Chinese angle grinder stand. Tried to use it once. Tossed it in disgust. Yes, it was irresistibly cheap. Lesson learned.
- Then again, from time to time I also buy Chinese tools that I am happy with. Last week a set of 5 countersinks for $25, I even ent back to buy a second set. For that price fantastic value.

The chinese factories are very good at making exactly what you pay for. The problem are the dealers, that often mark up low price crap quality and make it look like the good expensive stuff. It is very difficult to tell the difference if you cannot see and hold the items. These practices ruin the reputation of everything Chinese. Then again, I remember back in the 60's everything Japanese had the reputation of inferior crap... and just 20 years later suddenly everything Japanese was premium quality. Chris




- Other experiences include Chinese spiral drills, whose spiral unwinds.

[Greg Q]

I go to China, in an actual, physical sense, once a month or so. I have yet to see, in a few years of searching, anything but the most avaricious, money-centric, capitalistic, foreigner-screwing business ethos. Anywhere.

I find the Chinese to be the most direct, honest, bereft of artifice purveyors of crap that I have ever encountered on five continents. They are virtuosos when it comes to shifting stuff to buyers with varying degrees of naïveté. Yawn. Its their thing.

Would I buy a Chinese made iPhone? No choice, so: yes.
Would I fly in a Chinese airliner? No ####ing way.
Should I trust Chinese food producers? Just as far as I can throw them, yes.

I do appreciate that the Chinese make oceans of stuff for the west to consume. And I do appreciate that they do this because most of us want expedient, cheap, and I forget the other attribute...returnable? Warranteed? Just like Ozito?

Do not become mesmerised by the bad behaviour of one group or the other. VW group famously decided that self-destruction was a good corporate gambit. Psychopaths abound, not just at VW group. Brand leverage also rears its ugly head...as consumers we must always be wary of the latest offerings from any mfg. because the MBA ethos insists on milking the customer group for every dollar of profit right up until they wise up. Not for us the legacy relationship that our fathers enjoyed with the car/whitegoods/airline/department store brands. Back then life long implied agreements were hard-won, and cherished. Now? Not so much.

Still. I will never willingly buy a made in China anything when I have a choice. Except maybe those cheap knock-off rotor attachment bolts for my rescue helicopter. After all, its all the same thing, right?

[Pete F]

Sadly Chris the companies of today are run by accountants and finance people who often don't give a toss about the company, instead of the engineers and skilled employees who built the reputation now being cashed in. The current mantra is "cut costs, cut costs, cut costs", and often to heck with quality. The designers and engineers now have little to no say in what goes on. The result is they look at the Chinese "solution" and samples are made up. Of course the samples are great. Done deal, let's offshore the lot. Still stick our quality name on it, but it's no longer made locally. Within a short space of time the quality starts to deteriorate. What can they do about it? Nothing! Anyone with any real experience has been sacked, so they can't bring it back in house even if they wanted to.

It's why I stressed quality western manufacturing when talking about good brands, and not just a so called "good name". The chances are that name possibly just rebrands crap and cashes in. What happens in 10 year's time when customers realise they're paying more for the same crap and refuse to buy that brand anymore? Who cares when you're a cashed up finance guy laying on a beach in the Bahamas sucking on your 15th Pina Colada for the morning!

Today I happened to visit a couple of local firms*, one of which makes lathe live centres and countersinks. The quality is just chalk and cheese over the typical Chinese garbage most of us would see targeted at the hobby market. As Phil said, if you've never had the pleasure of working with or on really well made equipment, don't be so quick to presume all tools are the same. I've long forgotten precisely how much I paid for my Festool Kapex, but it still brings a smile to my face every time I use it.

Pete

*Edit: A shameless plug for a good ol' Aussie business that just makes good ####! Piper Tools | Leading manufacturer of quality machine tool accessories for over 70 years (http://www.pipertools.com.au/) Check out the runout on the centres!

[Machtool]

Thanks for those words of wisdom Machtool, I shall cherish them forever.
I think your are taking the out of me. There would be 24 real members that have actully spent time here, in my workshop. . And they all understand the love of the clock.

[Anorak Bob]

Four years ago I visited Fiora Machinery in Cannington, a Perth suburb and encountered not one but two Schaublin 13 milling machines. I had read about them and their German counterpart, the stunning Deckel FP1 on Tony Griffiths' Lathes site. But this was the first time I had seen a Schaublin mill in person. I had never before seen a machine, any machine, of such high quality and beauty.

Both machines had been the property of the Aeronautical Research Laboratory at the Weapons Research Establishment in Salisbury, SA. They had been purchased in an auction and the purchaser intended trading both machines for a Chinese milling machine. From that time till now I always wondered why someone who had these machines would even consider letting them both slide through his fingers. Now I understand.

Phil mentions the pleasure of use. I derive pleasure from just looking at the 13 I eventually bought.

Bob. A clock lover.:D

[Anorak Bob]

*Edit: A shameless plug for a good ol' Aussie business that just makes good ####! Piper Tools | Leading manufacturer of quality machine tool accessories for over 70 years (http://www.pipertools.com.au/) Check out the runout on the centres!

And check out the load capacity of those centres too. I bought a brand new, pine boxed Piper live centre from Canada of all places. Seldom use the thing because of the stiff preload on the bearings. My go-to centre is an Austra, probably made by Phil F during his time at Zenford Zeigler:U. This country once produced some nice gear.

Bob.

[PDW]

BTW , I can remove the LR bonnet in 30 seconds flat ,

Guess what, I used to be able to remove the Series 3 gearbox and have it on the bench in less than 30 minutes.

Do you know why? Lots of practice.

And let's not start on the electrics. Lucas was a firm who earnt their reputation for utter crap by assiduous attention to detail over many years.

Before there are any defensive comments on my driving style, I owned and drove a 1982 Mitsubishi 4WD utility that I bought new in 1982 for 29 years without breaking anything in its power train. Some of the forum members here have seen that I'm not exactly shy about loading stuff up either.

PDW

[Alaks McGREGORE]

The problem with Chinese products is that it is very difficult to predict quality. You can get high quality made in China, and you can get crap quality. And the price is NOT always a reliable indicator. Some dealers sell crap at inflated prices. I have never come across high quality products from China at a discount price, though.

- My two cordless Metabo drills are made in China. They work well. Cost $500 each if I recall well.
- I have several Chinese digital calipers (unlicensed copies of the Swiss Silvac). I use them for rough work, one rests constantly at the bandsaw. I am happy with them for the money. No, they do NOT move as silky smooth as my Mitutoyo absolute. They come with crap alkaline batteries that barely last one month. And even proper Silver cells do not last too long. But these Chinese calipers are still excellent value for money.
- I also bought three digital calipers from Aldi, absolute crap quality, ALL 3 failed within 6 months. Mind you, I consider myself quite experienced with Chinese calipers, between lathe and mill I have 5 modified and miniaturized Chinese calipers for DRO scales, with displays removed to save room. If I say the Aldi calipers are crap, I know exactly what I am talking about. Lesson learned.
- Some 6 years ago I bought a Chinese machinist protractor. Spent hours carefully de-burring it and turning it into something useable. Yes it reads angles, but it is no joy to use. Then about one year ago I bought a Starrett protractor, old and used, with engraved previous owner name. It is like day and night, vastly superior in every respect, a pleasure to use, easy and accurate to clamp etc etc. That is a used protractor probably 20 years old, a new one would be even better. Lesson learned.
- In a shop I recently had a look a Chinese vernier caliper. Machining marks and burrs, and a jerky motion. How can you take an accurate measurement without any feeling for the force applied?
- I remember once buying a Chinese angle grinder stand. Tried to use it once. Tossed it in disgust. Yes, it was irresistibly cheap. Lesson learned.
- Then again, from time to time I also buy Chinese tools that I am happy with. Last week a set of 5 countersinks for $25, I even ent back to buy a second set. For that price fantastic value.

The chinese factories are very good at making exactly what you pay for. The problem are the dealers, that often mark up low price crap quality and make it look like the good expensive stuff. It is very difficult to tell the difference if you cannot see and hold the items. These practices ruin the reputation of everything Chinese. Then again, I remember back in the 60's everything Japanese had the reputation of inferior crap... and just 20 years later suddenly everything Japanese was premium quality. Chris




- Other experiences include Chinese spiral drills, whose spiral unwinds.
That is exactly right, could not have said it any better.

[Grahame Collins]

A few points to consider then,

Asia and notably the Chinese have changed the purchasing habits of millions of we home engineering types around the world.

What has happenened is that we have changed our buying habits from buying a product that we expect to last. We have gone from the purchase of reliable, long lasting but higher costing products to buying cheaper items, some that we know in our heart won't have the longevity .

In many cases we expect a once only use or at least a short use. The idea of a genuine warranty from the manufacturer the cheap goods is almost non-existent. Warranty is now, only notional, enforced on the local distributors by our local legislation. Thank goodness for that.

The old style of good standing and reputation is gone for some manufacturing companies. Many old name brands had exactly that, a name and reputation for excellent performance, reliability and longevity that came about by product development and attention to their customer feedback. Competition from other manufacturers of the similar product kept the quality and prices at a reasonable level and commercial advantage was gained only by developing a better product with improved features and reliability.

Among the few local manufacturers left, the option is to move with the times offer best available quality and rely on the quality to overcome the invariable much higher purchase price and hope the consumer is able to discern the difference.

Jump now to the present. Local manufacturers have closed due to inability to compete outright with cheaper manufacturing costs based on lower wages. There is no company name as such to protect, as there is no brand name in a lot of cases. China is a copier of products with not much R&D going on that I am aware of.

The multi nationals have to accept a share of the blame too, in exporting the manufacturing to Asia and then accepting the cheaper product which returns, an obvious example being the Vice grips brand which vary from the original not only in their place of manufacture but also in thinner chrome plating, smaller weaker rivets and springs which are thinner in wire cross section. The quality controls are being ignored, though I understand some Multi National name brand manufacturers are now placing their own staff in the manufacturing centers to oversee the quality.
That alone is a problematic exercise as getting the right people with the skills and abilities to do so must be difficult.

Our ability to choose the better-manufactured product is diminishing on a daily basis as decent manufacturers are being forced out of business.

Is it a slow running conspiracy (on goes my tin foil hat) to slowly destroy the manufacturing base of the free world. If free world countries don't have a strong manufacturing base their ability to resist China or the like, as a military force is being slowly diminished as well. The bad guys will win without firing a shot as the good guys won't have any decent hardware to shoot back with due to a collapsed economy and manufacturing base incapable of supporting the military hardware.

My engineering tool buying goes along the lines of look at tool , check origin of tool where possible, compare price against the best available.
I am fortunate in the I have most of the tools I need and being closer to retirement, realize that what I buy now is with an weekly income. What I buy is with a view that I won’t be able to easily replace it down the track. Second hand good quality tools are attractive to me.


Grahame

[Ueee]

9 years ago I lashed out 4k on a Chinese mill. Firstly in its defence I will say it has paid for itself many times over, but not doing work that is exactly high tolerance. .25mm is more than enough on a sword blade. It had its problems straight away but I never thought it was a bad machine.....until I pulled it apart last year and saw just how poorly it had been made. I am now disgusted with the thing, and only keep it as it makes a decent drill press. Earlier this year I was very fortunate to pick up a very nice French mill dirt cheap. Even after transporting her, replacing nearly every bearing short of the spindle bearings, cleaning, New oil etc she still has cost me less than half of the Chinese mill. And I cannot begin to describe just how much better she is to use. I really cannot believe how 2 machines designed to do the same job can be so different.
Again recently I bought a Chinese bandsaw. I can day now as soon as I find a decent old machine it will go. The fit and finish is appalling, and I had to make modifications out of the box even to get it to work.
I own 2 Chinese indicators, both are far cries from my others. One never gets used now and the other only gets used as a beater.

For the record I now drive a vw, luckily not yet involved in the latest recall. A beautiful van to drive and very frugal. My last van was a Holden combo. Thirsty, uncomfortable and too small. In the 5 years I had it we spent twice as much keeping it on the road as we did my wife's car.......and it is a 1989 jaguar. As far a reputation goes one of the most unreliable cars on the road. Yes I am under the bonnet every couple of months, and it has the usual "total loss" oil system. But it is the most comfortable, smooth, quiet and driver friendly car I have been in.

Cheers,
Ee

[chambezio]

For the last few years I have been thinking about us buying Chinese stuff then discovering that it is not as good we liked.

I think that we (at least here in OZ) are experiencing a very good standard of living that gives us access to indulge our spare time into all kinds of hobbies that are easy to pursue because we can buy tools and machinery cheaply. Really the majority will be only used now and then and create a happy time for that person. The majority will put up with a machine/tool that sort of gets the job done but there are others who want/demand better performance from the equipment.

The market that was buying top quality gear for industry may have slowed so now to stay buoyant have gone the Chinese route to survive and also cash in on the expanding hobby market. They still have to eat too.

We all look for a bargain, its human nature. We really can't complain about the problems with the not-so-good gear we are buying because we have bought the problem on ourselves.
The real shame and pity of it all is, when we want to buy an article of really good quality we find that that particular piece has been long since been off the shelves for years because it just wasn't selling.

Where are we heading?? Who knows? another facet is that local industry is slowing so that means employment will too. We have/are giving jobs to people off shore due to our spending.

I say again Where are we heading??

[welder]

Most of the machines in my workshop are of Asian origin,When I first started playing with tools at around age 10 I loved Chinese tools as I could get a lot of tools for not much money.They were really good until around 4 years ago I bought a retired fitters tool box which had no Chinese tools in everything made in Germany,England,USA or Australia after I used those tools I was realised that the Chinese tools were inferior so I decided I will buy the best possible quality I can afford with EBay this is easy as I can get quality tools for cheap. I might be different to most here as I am buying my tools for use in my Job and for hobby and would still like to be using them in 50 years.

[Pete F]

We all look for a bargain, its human nature.

Yes indeed, but many equate "bargain" as meaning inexpensive. As I keep repeating, none of my business, and people can do as they choose with their money. However in my experience there is a lot of truth in the mantra "Buy cheap, buy twice".

[Oldneweng]

I bought a Chinese mill because after looking for a long time for a suitable second hand one I found that they were very hard to get. Maybe one day I will have the opportunity. Cheap prices for Chinese gear means that many more people can afford machines that otherwise they would only dream of.

Chambezio

The real shame and pity of it all is, when we want to buy an article of really good quality we find that that particular piece has been long since been off the shelves for years because it just wasn't selling.

Or priced out of the universe.


I say again Where are we heading??

I believe that thye answer to this problem can be found quite easily and I don't believe that this can be readily denied. The world runs on money. Mostly public listed companies. Nearly all governments around the world are controlled to some degree by companies. Not directly but try to increase the company tax by 100% and see how long before you are out of power. Public listed companies have one aim. Make money for their shareholders.

Look at the GMH situation. The federal and state governments are trying to keep them operating locally. The company would, I am sure prefer to do the manufacturing in Asia but need to do so in such a way as to maintain market share and at least appear to care about the local workforce. They would make more money if manufacturing was done in Asia. The economics of scale.

So where are we heading? To greater profits for shareholders and if you think you can change this then I believe you are mistaken. Manufacturing in Australia has been make much more expensive and less profitable by cheap imports. The best option for local manufacturers is to find a niche market or have a product that can be individually suited to the customers requirements.

"We" may be responsible for buying the cheap imports but I think that there has been some clever marketing that has influenced the population along the way.

Dean

[Pete F]

So where are we heading? To greater profits for shareholders and if you think you can change this then I believe you are mistaken.

I wish you were right, and you are in theory. Unfortunately in practice it's a lot more complex than that, and the greatest proportion of profits are currently going to senior executive positions, either directly in salary or in bonuses, some of which are attached to short-term performance targets that may not be aligned with the long-term health of the company.

The Bank Bailout Scandal: US Treasury Approves “Executive Bonuses” for CEOs of Bailed-out Companies | Global Research (http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-bank-bailout-scandal-us-treasury-approves-executive-bonuses-for-ceos-of-bailed-out-companies/5321116)

[th62]

Ok, you have convinced me that most of you apparently hate anything Chinese. I know a lot of forum members own Chinese lathes, but given the obviously hostile sentiment expressed here, why would you own something that you so obviously dislike?
I've had only good luck so far and as long as what I am buying fulfils it intended purpose and represents good value for the money I will keep buying it.
Now Pete F has accused me of saying Chinese is as good as Swiss, German what have you, show me where Pete F??? For the life of me I just can't find that entry. I buy Chinese because I think it represents good value for money; and yes, it is good enough for me - I'm not making Swiss clocks, just normal everyday hobby items.

[Ueee]

Now Pete F has accused me of saying Chinese is as good as Swiss, German what have you, show me where Pete F??? For the life of me I can't find that entry.

It's in the same spot that that you got the idea that we hate Chinese stuff.....it doesn't exist. I'm just of the opinion that Chinese may appear to be good value on the surface but really don't think it is.

[th62]

That's great Ueee, we all have our opinions, I just don't understand the level of vehemence in everyone's replies? I only said I liked Chinese products, I didn't say I was going to join the Neo Nazis. It's not in the same place at all Ueee, it's right here in Pete F's blog, so if you look at the three words highlighted by the exclamation marks!:

Sorry I don't really see the point in this. Some people buy things simply as they were inexpensive, then spend the rest of their time trying to justify in their own minds how it is "just as good" as a quality, well madebrand name. They're not as good, know it, live it, and move on.

[Ueee]

I don't see the word hate there.....
Opinions are all we really have. But unless you have tried both I don't think you can have a well informed opinion.

[cba_melbourne]

China is a copier of products with not much R&D going on that I am aware of.

Grahame, yes China once was a big copier, and to some extent still is. But I can assure you, China is systematically investing BIG BIG time into all sort research. I see huge investments in highest technology, they buy the best and latest and most expensive research instruments there are. They are already leaders in solar technology, they aim to become tomorrow's leaders in Biotech......They have excellent schools, and look around how many Chinese kids are enrolled in our universities. Chinese families are only allowed one child, and parents want to make sure it gets the very best training they can afford. I have no doubt whatsoever, that 20 years from now China will be par or will have overtaken countries like Japan in nearly every respect. Of course, as the Chinese middle classes earn more, they will want to work shorter hours and enjoy their life more, just like us. That will drive prices for their products up. Remember, in the 70's Mitutoyo was just a low cost asian alternative to "good" measuring equipment. Heck, already now an apartment in Shanghai costs more than the same in Melbourne! Chris

[cba_melbourne]

I wish you were right, and you are in theory. Unfortunately in practice it's a lot more complex than that, and the greatest proportion of profits are currently going to senior executive positions, either directly in salary or in bonuses, some of which are attached to short-term performance targets that may not be aligned with the long-term health of the company.

The Bank Bailout Scandal: US Treasury Approves “Executive Bonuses” for CEOs of Bailed-out Companies | Global Research (http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-bank-bailout-scandal-us-treasury-approves-executive-bonuses-for-ceos-of-bailed-out-companies/5321116)

Pete, it is all of us. Making money with money. Your superannuation fund is making money with money. What we forget is, that at the bottom of the rank, "someone" invariably has to work for these profits. As long as that "someone" is someone else in a far away country, we accept it. Only as the bean counters target our own job, it starts hurting.

There is an initiative running up right now in Switzerland. It demands, that the highest wage package in a company cannot exceed 12 times the lowest wage paid by that same company. I feel somehow attracted to the idea.....
1:12 initiative: Glencore head considers taking company abroad - swissinfo.ch (http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/business/Glencore_head_considers_taking_company_abroad.html?cid=35731562)

Chris

[gngh]

Geez mate I thought I was unpopular, you should have read my thread first, forearmed is forewarned. Who would have thought saying you liked Chinese products would raise such ire. You are obviously multi skilled like me you can write and people off at the same time. Perhaps there is a rule for this forum we aren’t aware of warning that opinions that don’t sit well with the majority are not welcome. I think I'll stay out of this one, too much vitriol.

[Big Shed]

Also, let's not forget that the Chinese culture is one of the oldest in the world and many things we take for granted today were originally invented in China.

They had a thriving culture and science when our forefathers still lived in caves or were wandering nomads in Europe.

The thing that most people don't realise is the amount of money invested by the Chinese Government in manufacturing infrastructure, on a scale never matched by any Western Government. They also invest heavily in research and development and are willing to develop and industry on the results of that research and development.

Put that together with obvious Chinese ambition and a will to achieve and the world is their oyster.

This contrasts with some of the things developed in this country, in our own Govt establishments, and never developed to the stage where we as a nation have benefited from that.

[nearnexus]

[QUOTE I think I'll stay out of this one, too much vitriol.[/QUOTE]

Not really. This is mild compared to some chat room antics :)

I think the point is being missed by a few - I don't see the OP saying Chinese stuff is as well made or nice to use as much more expensive (if we buy new) brand name stuff.

The OP is only saying (as I read it) that Chinese stuff can be plenty accurate enough for his/her hobby and reasonable value for the amount of use it gets. I fully agree.

As I said, I have brand name and Chinese stuff (reasonable quality CTC tools asian stuff) and they both do the job quite nicely.

Let's not forget that if it wasn't for the Asian connection many people in this forum would never have never joined, or taken up this activity.

So just sh#t canning Asian stuff in general is quite narrow minded IMHO.

So go ahead and flame me.

Rob

[Ueee]

Geez mate I thought I was unpopular, you should have read my thread first, forearmed is forewarned. Who would have thought saying you liked Chinese products would raise such ire. You are obviously multi skilled like me you can write and people off at the same time. Perhaps there is a rule for this forum we aren’t aware of warning that opinions that don’t sit well with the majority are not welcome. I think I'll stay out of this one, too much vitriol.

So apparently you are allowed to have your opinions but we are not?
I'm out of this one, I tried to make it clear why I have the opinions I have but its seems to be not taken the way it was intended.

[PDW]

Ok, you have convinced me that most of you apparently hate anything Chinese.

Well, if you're convinced of that, it's because you have a reading comprehension problem.

Saying that any tool is 'good enough for me' is meaningless unless you also say to what level of accuracy you're working to.

I have a Chinese made H/V bandsaw. It's a POS basically but it cuts steel within the allowable (mine) tolerance for accuracy. A better one might cost (new) 10X as much. I don't need that level of accuracy. This one suits my simple needs.

OTOH if I buy a DTI graduated to 0.01mm I expect it to work to that level. I don't accept that plus or minus 0.01mm on that is good enough.

Drop another order of magnitude to 0.001mm, which is where some of the better equipped & skilled people on this forum are working (which does not include me BTW), and you might see why a DTI that cannot reliably and repeatably function at that level is a piece of junk, no matter how cheap the initial price or what country of origin. Pete F's comments WRT the Aldi digital calipers are a classic example - they are junk because they cannot do what they are designed to do and sold as capable of doing. He is 100% correct.

I have quite a lot of made in China tooling. I particularly like my Chinese manufacture MIG welder. I've burnt over 200kg of steel wire and another 30 kg more or less of 316 and 309 wire. It works so much better than my old, 415V 3 phase MIG welder that there's no comparison.

Machine tools though - no way I'd trade my old B/port mill for a new H&F special of the same theoretical work envelope regardless of price - and keep in mind that I regard a B/port as a soggy noodle of a machine, really. If you really want to do accurate and repeatable work in a reasonable time frame, something like Ueee's French made mill is the way to go.

A Chinese equivalent in rigidity etc *is* available, but now we're talking $20K and up. Not silly hobby money - which is why these discussions are fun if you like flame wars, but totally pointless because those of us with old industrial iron can't help comparing its capability with new Chinese iron.

I'd rather a H&F 'special' lathe or mill over no lathe or mill and I know that's a situation lots of people face.

So carry on - I'm happy to throw fuel on the fire.

PDW

[Grahame Collins]

Ok, you have convinced me that most of you apparently hate anything Chinese. I know a lot of forum members own Chinese lathes, but given the obviously hostile sentiment expressed here, why would you own something that you so obviously dislike?


I will concede that a country starting to modernize its manufacturing base won't initially be able to produce some products( lets say lathes) to a quality/price level as sought by consumers. Things like training a skilled workforce and developing a QA/QC programme come into it.

Compare the same current model and brand ( generic )12x36 Chinese lathe as the one I purchased in 2007, to one another as the same quality level -not improved, quality wise in nearly a decade. Its the fact the Chinese manufacturers have not been inclined to improve the quality control that upsets me as a buyer. China has had at least a decade to lift its game but hasn't.

Through the net I read the same old problems of swarf in gearboxes, bearings hammered in and so forth.The same current manufactured lathes suffer the same problems as the one I had.
It has not been hard to pick this up on the english speaking engineering forums , that England, America, Canada and ourselves, a large market as a whole , does not seem worthwhile as a basis for even some small quality improvement.

For me buying the lathe sight unseen and trusting the agent was my downfall.I was advised to buy a better quality Taiwanese lathe and ignored that advice. Years lather and seeing a comparable Taiwanese model in the flesh,so to speak, the differences were manifold.

Its not a hugely expensive cost addition to turn machined castings upside down ,blow the swarf out, or not hammerering the bearings in with a pipe and sledge hammer or even drilling the tapped hole to fit a stud so its square to the lathe not 20 degrees off plumb.That stuff is easily fixed if someone cares and with the Chinese no one cares or seems to. It is that and the attitude behind it is what sticks up our noses .

Yes the level of features and extras has increased but NOT overall quality when it easily could have.

Go and have a look at the Indian stuff that's starting to be produced. Groz products 10 years ago were generally pretty crappy but the finish these days is outstanding. Can't say that I have bought any stuff but what I did see at an engineering show, looks good.

I for one would be happy to pay the extra cost incurred and others too I feel sure.
Grahame

[gngh]

Well Ueee, this isn’t my thread, I haven’t voiced an opinion one way or another on this thread. I only said my ‘brother in preferences’ should have read my thread first. Given the level of antipathy expressed by the majority here so far, I also suggested he must be multi skilled, as I am. So don’t leave on my account, stay, enjoy, most seem to be having a ball. I will leave instead, that should make more than a few happy.

[Grahame Collins]

I have a Chinese made H/V bandsaw. It's a POS basically but it cuts steel within the allowable (mine) tolerance for accuracy. A better one might cost (new) 10X as much. I don't need that level of accuracy. This one suits my simple needs.

OTOH if I buy a DTI graduated to 0.01mm I expect it to work to that level. I don't accept that plus or minus 0.01mm on that is good enough.

Drop another order of magnitude to 0.001mm, which is where some of the better equipped & skilled people on this forum are working (which does not include me BTW), and you might see why a DTI that cannot reliably and repeatably function at that level is a piece of junk, no matter how cheap the initial price or what country of origin. Pete F's comments WRT the Aldi digital calipers are a classic example - they are junk because they cannot do what they are designed to do and sold as capable of doing. He is 100% correct.

PDW

That encapsulates most of the arguments fairly well. It is a fitness for purpose type situation.

The downside to the cheap and nasty- the items not performing to specs claimed-the manufacturers don't give a crap.
Attitude - we make so many of them and so cheap you have to put up with a few crook ones, the shop will give you a new one.-that,s what pizzes us off.

That works ok for a dial indicator, but how many distributors will pay freight to and fro on a crook lathe. For the owner the transport cost( borne by the owner-not seller) may exceed the repair cost.


Discussions like this one are quite useful for helping new blokes to form judgements on what they might buy. I thank all for contributing.

Grahame

[.RC.]

Personally I look back at what previous generations have been able to afford and thank the Master Builder that today mills and lathes are available on such a cheap price that even teenagers are able to buy something..

Lets go back 30 years and see what was available for what price in the hobby machine tool market...

What sir wants to buy a milling machine but sir only earns the average wage... May I direct sir to the aisle that contains the files and cold chisels...

If I was born in the time of my parents generation there is no way in hell I would have the workshop that I have today...

I am not going to be critical of Chinese machine tools, they make possible what in the past was the impossible for the average hobbyist.

From here

Page Title (http://www.lathes.co.uk/hercus/)


It is interesting to note that the firm's founder, Mr. F.W. Hercus, wrote to the British press in 1954 (but without revealing who he was) and outlined Customs' requirements for immigrants who took their own model-engineering machine tools with them to Australia. He also pointed out that, whilst it took sixteen weeks' work in England to buy a Model C South Bend, in Australia an "equally good" copy could be bought with just ten weeks' wages.

Ten weeks wages in Australia on the median wage is $11 000...

Look at what you can buy in the machine tool range these days for $11 000..

I can buy a decent lathe and a decent milling machine.. Chinese of course, but certainly far better then a Hercus...

The old adage "We have never had it so good" really rings true for metal work hobbyists today....

[th62]

Better than a Hercus? that should get a few bites.

[Steamwhisperer]

Better than a Hercus? that should get a few bites.

I was just thinking the same thing lol.

Phil

[Anorak Bob]

You know, I couldn't care less if everyone thought their Chinese lathe ran rings around my 44 year old Hercus.

No tears here Boys.

BT

[Oldneweng]

I wish you were right, and you are in theory. Unfortunately in practice it's a lot more complex than that, and the greatest proportion of profits are currently going to senior executive positions, either directly in salary or in bonuses, some of which are attached to short-term performance targets that may not be aligned with the long-term health of the company.

The Bank Bailout Scandal: US Treasury Approves “Executive Bonuses” for CEOs of Bailed-out Companies | Global Research (http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-bank-bailout-scandal-us-treasury-approves-executive-bonuses-for-ceos-of-bailed-out-companies/5321116)

Agreed. But that does not change my statement, only changes the direction slightly and I do not think that this forum is the place for such in depth financial discussions.

Dean

[j.ashburn]

I wish you were right, and you are in theory. Unfortunately in practice it's a lot more complex than that, and the greatest proportion of profits are currently going to senior executive positions, either directly in salary or in bonuses, some of which are attached to short-term performance targets that may not be aligned with the long-term health of the company.

The Bank Bailout Scandal: US Treasury Approves “Executive Bonuses” for CEOs of Bailed-out Companies | Global Research (http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-bank-bailout-scandal-us-treasury-approves-executive-bonuses-for-ceos-of-bailed-out-companies/5321116)In my younger years I worked for a large Australian icon. The place a small wheel in the ''big cog'' employed about 70-75 staff.One of the junior pay clerks who had a bit of a soft spot for me gave me some privied insight to the pay roll structure of the place.
From the lowly cleaner to the general Manager the rate of pay from highest to lowest.There was about 100-125 dollars difference.admittedly the ''boss had a company car and some other perks ,but no where near what we are seeing now ,with C E O's earning so much it is disgustingly hideous the pay horizon now. Really is a C E O worth that much??The mind boggles! Share holders driving and calling for profit profit,honestly I ask the question. Why are they demanding a high price and allowing the real skill in the organisation eventually face social welfare. John.

[Steamwhisperer]

You know, I couldn't care less if everyone thought their Chinese lathe ran rings around my 44 year old Hercus.

No tears here Boys.

BT

Ouch Bob!
It's funny, I was always taught that it was the bloke standing in front of the lathe, not the lathe that produced a good (or otherwise) job :D.


Phil

[j.ashburn]

Ouch Bob!
It's funny, I was always taught that it was the bloke standing in front of the lathe, not the lathe that produced a good (or otherwise) job :D.


PhilNot far from here up to about 10yrs ago there were old machine tools,ancient driven by equally ancient ''old crusties'' who had used the same machine year in year out punching out accurate work.The lathes are now embracing us as ''Great Walls or some thing else Hyundai maybe.The old crusties ''boot hill''.Same company now imports their products ''ckd'' from India. The crates alone are works of art,end up light up material for the Maldon railway loco boilers.Some stuff still made there in house but not as it was in it's industrial boom time days.
Just another local icon that has slipped into the hands of bean counters.

[Oldneweng]

Ouch Bob!
It's funny, I was always taught that it was the bloke standing in front of the lathe, not the lathe that produced a good (or otherwise) job :D.


Phil

When I worked for JP Engineering they had a lot of very old machines. If someone complained about this to the boss he said that anyone can get good result with new machines, but it takes a good machinist to produce good results from old machines.

Dean

[Anorak Bob]

Ouch Bob!

Phil


The thing is Phil, the little Hercus works well enough for me. If I didn't have the Hercus I probably would have an even piddlier Myford.

I had ventured out to Fiora Machinery 11 years ago just to look at their range of cheap Taiwanese (could have been Chinese?) lathes. Back then I was basically a woodie, no, more a weekend pretend builder's labourer. I hadn't used a lathe since my student days at WAIT. Came home with my first Hercus. I guess it was a romantic attraction, I'd used the same lathe in high school. Strangely I had no fondness for metalwork back then but the lathe I bought had a substantiality that I felt was absent on the cheap new lathes. It possessed a curvaceousness akin to some of my wood working tools which added to the appeal. That lathe turned out to be quite worn ( a gentle description ). It was an ex school machine and bore the scars of school boy abuse. The green lathe is my third Hercus.

Detractors abound. I'm beyond caring.

BT

[.RC.]

Better than a Hercus?

For new money yes.... At the end of the production run a Hercus was over $10 000 new, and what did you get? Milled cross slide ways, not even ground, a single leadscrew that did double duty as a feed screw as well... A threaded spindle nose rather then a camlock.. A tailstock that locks the quill by tightening up a split in the bore

They are good machines, but fairly antiquated in design...

compared to say this

SM-1340A. Centre Lathe. Steelmaster. 1000mm Centres, 330mm Swing, 38mm Bore.. 2 Axis DRO. - Buy Workshop Equipment & Machinery Online | Asset Plant & Machinery (http://www.assetplant.com/epages/shop.sf/en_AU/?ObjectPath=/Shops/shop/Products/12-0133)

[Anorak Bob]

For new money yes.... At the end of the production run a Hercus was over $10 000 new, and what did you get? Milled cross slide ways, not even ground, a single leadscrew that did double duty as a feed screw as well... A threaded spindle nose rather then a camlock.. A tailstock that locks the quill by tightening up a split in the bore

They are good machines, but fairly antiquated in design...

compared to say this

SM-1340A. Centre Lathe. Steelmaster. 1000mm Centres, 330mm Swing, 38mm Bore.. 2 Axis DRO. - Buy Workshop Equipment & Machinery Online | Asset Plant & Machinery (http://www.assetplant.com/epages/shop.sf/en_AU/?ObjectPath=/Shops/shop/Products/12-0133)

At the time RC, it would have been the antiquated design that sucked me in. I wasn't having any of that squared off stuff. My, doesn't taste change?

A old teaser for Ray.:D


http://www.lathes.co.uk/schaublin135/img0.jpg

[th62]

Like them or loath them, the oldies are seriously good looking machines. What looks better than a schaublin, hercus, myford or Boxford. Shame their all so old and so dam expensive.

[Pete F]

For new money yes.... At the end of the production run a Hercus was over $10 000 new, and what did you get? Milled cross slide ways, not even ground, a single leadscrew that did double duty as a feed screw as well... A threaded spindle nose rather then a camlock.. A tailstock that locks the quill by tightening up a split in the bore

They are good machines, but fairly antiquated in design...

compared to say this

SM-1340A. Centre Lathe. Steelmaster. 1000mm Centres, 330mm Swing, 38mm Bore.. 2 Axis DRO. - Buy Workshop Equipment & Machinery Online | Asset Plant & Machinery (http://www.assetplant.com/epages/shop.sf/en_AU/?ObjectPath=/Shops/shop/Products/12-0133)

Yes, what's more important to the buyer, something with the latest "features", or something that cuts accurately straight out of the box ... and will likely do so as long as the person owns it :wink:

[Steamwhisperer]

The thing is Phil, the little Hercus works well enough for me. If I didn't have the Hercus I probably would have an even piddlier Myford.

I had ventured out to Fiora Machinery 11 years ago just to look at their range of cheap Taiwanese (could have been Chinese?) lathes. Back then I was basically a woodie, no, more a weekend pretend builder's labourer. I hadn't used a lathe since my student days at WAIT. Came home with my first Hercus. I guess it was a romantic attraction, I'd used the same lathe in high school. Strangely I had no fondness for metalwork back then but the lathe I bought had a substantiality that I felt was absent on the cheap new lathes. It possessed a curvaceousness akin to some of my wood working tools which added to the appeal. That lathe turned out to be quite worn ( a gentle description ). It was an ex school machine and bore the scars of school boy abuse. The green lathe is my third Hercus.

Detractors abound. I'm beyond caring.

BT

I fully understand what you are saying Bob,
I have more than a soft spot for the nicely rounded New Visby lathe purely because it was the first lathe I ever used, and likewise the Cincinatti No 1 Horizontal mill. Then I went to trade school and everything was square and business like. No romance in those machines.
I worked in a place once where the (very) old Macson was running a taper of 0.012" over (if I remember correctly) about 18 " I still loved using that old clunker though and what a challenge to turn a parallel shaft. :D
I am sure people would look at me rather strange if they saw me crawling over broken glass just to 'use' one of them again.
The reason I love my AL 340D is purely because it's mine, noone elses. It's the first lathe I have ever owned from new

Phil

[Michael G]

Ten weeks wages in Australia on the median wage is $11 000...

The old adage "We have never had it so good" really rings true for metal work hobbyists today....

My CVA cost me around $1400 (not including shipping - that was more than the lathe). If the median wage is really $57k (I thought the average wage was more like $35k). I've spent 1 1/4 week's wages for my solid and substantial lathe.:o (admittedly with extra wear at no extra cost)

Michael

[Big Shed]

Michael, according to this link (http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]/Lookup/6302.0main+features3Nov%202012) average weekly earnings as of Nov 2012 were $1393, historically SA earnings are somewhat below that.

It is interesting to note that public sector earnings are above those of the private sector, yet most public sector workers will tell you they are underpaid and would earn more in the private sector.:p

[Pete F]

If the median wage is really $57k (I thought the average wage was more like $35k).
Michael

Median. Average. Same, same ... but different :q

[.RC.]

My CVA cost me around $1400 (not including shipping - that was more than the lathe). If the median wage is really $57k (I thought the average wage was more like $35k). I've spent 1 1/4 week's wages for my solid and substantial lathe.:o (admittedly with extra wear at no extra cost)

Michael


I was talking about new machines...

Second hand machines are a bit of a Turkey shoot... You may get a good one, you may get a worn out one... If you live in a machine tool desert like myself your choices get even less... Do you take a big risk buying second hand freshly painted sight unseen?

My experience on the second hand market, there is more worn out crap out there then really good machines.. If you want a big machine of which there is a greater range, then you run into problems of moving it, tooling it up and powering it...

Also generally you only hear about the new machines that were not like they should have been.... Those with good ones, rarely praise them up, as they are too busy using them...

I have fluked a few good second hand machines for a good price, I have also bought a few complete clapped out machines.. That is why I bought new my big lathe..

[.RC.]

Median. Average. Same, same ... but different :q

Median is middle.... The middle of the group of numbers you are using...

Average is mean...

The average AU wage is higher then the median wage as those on big multimillion dollar wages like airline pilots make the average higher...

[jack620]

Median is only the same as average for a normal distribution Pete. For most things in real life they aren't the same. You were possibly thinking of the mean.

It's funny Bob. I reckon the curvaceous-ness is the worst part of my Hercus lathe. I like flat areas to mount magnetic bases on.

Chris

Edit: RC beat me to it. I should type faster.

[Anorak Bob]

Median is only the same as average for a normal distribution Pete. For most things in real life they aren't the same. You were possibly thinking of the mean.

It's funny Bob. I reckon the curvaceous-ness is the worst part of my Hercus lathe. I like flat areas to mount magnetic bases on.

Chris

Edit: RC beat me to it. I should type faster.

Here's the answer Chris. Procure an extended cross slide. :D

Edit: My sincerest apologies Chris for leaving the r out of your name.:doh:


272867

[Pete F]

Median is only the same as average for a normal distribution Pete. For most things in real life they aren't the same. You were possibly thinking of the mean.

facetious |fəˈsēSHəs|
adjective
treating serious issues with deliberately inappropriate humor; flippant.



same same but different

Used a lot in Thailand, especially in an attempts to sell something but can mean just about anything depending on what the user is trying to achieve.
Q "Is this a real rolex?"
A " Yes Sir, same same but different"



Poking Fun
A remark of sarcaism/witty expression as to make a joke about the other person/object.

ie it wasn't me who was suggesting mean, average, and median were the same.

Edit: Ok maybe I was the only one who understood the joke, but a semester of studying statistics will do anyone's head in :doh:

[jack620]

Stop teasing me Bob. I've scoured the four corners of the earth for an extended cross slide. Mal Conomy has one but isn't letting it go. If you're reading this Mal, I'm still waiting!
Chris

[Oldneweng]

Median is only the same as average for a normal distribution Pete. For most things in real life they aren't the same. You were possibly thinking of the mean.

It's funny Bob. I reckon the curvaceous-ness is the worst part of my Hercus lathe. I like flat areas to mount magnetic bases on.

Chris

Edit: RC beat me to it. I should type faster.

Not to mention somewhere to put all sorts of other things like coffee cups, hammers, spanners, files, last weeks unfinished jobs and the detritous from the motor bike you were just dismantling but got tired of mucking about with.

Dean

[Oldneweng]

Here's the answer Chis. Procure an extended cross slide. :D


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Now I have to get my CY lathe setup because the extended dovetail extension on the rear of its cross slide makes that look tiny. I could fit 10 times that on it. I cannot wait. Sorry Chris.

Dean

[RayG]

At the time RC, it would have been the antiquated design that sucked me in. I wasn't having any of that squared off stuff. My, doesn't taste change?

A old teaser for Ray.:D


http://www.lathes.co.uk/schaublin135/img0.jpg


Ahhh... thanks BT, "micron precision with a touch of class" a breath of pure elegance in a sea of wannabee's I know of a guy in Vic who has two ... and won't sell either of em (dammit), I'd put out a contract with Greg's mate Guido, but I doubt he sell even then...

Such is the beauty of swiss precision.... I have to suffer with my noisy CQ6230.....

Regards
Ray

[Hunch]

The chinese factories are very good at making exactly what you pay for. The problem are the dealers, that often mark up low price crap quality and make it look like the good expensive stuff. It is very difficult to tell the difference if you cannot see and hold the items. These practices ruin the reputation of everything Chinese. Then again, I remember back in the 60's everything Japanese had the reputation of inferior crap... and just 20 years later suddenly everything Japanese was premium quality. Chris

I'm sure there are dealers who do purposely buy low to sell high, but problem is mainly cultural as I see it, cut-throat capitalism/materialism, I imagine it won't mirror the Japanese miracle - in time frame at least.

Just received a container load the other day from there - non machining related. Some of the litany of woes, bad welds....cracking straight up, thin powder coating over weld spatter, defective galvanising....so poor it rusted in the container.....loading uncovered in the rain probably didn't help! Funny thing is quality has been on a downward spiral over several years from this company as they think the dumb foreigners won't notice the deception....and I won't go into the attempted transfer frauds....."repco".

[rodm]

It boils down to different strokes for different folks.

I have a sea of blue Chinese and Taiwanese imports in my shed and they do the job I ask of them. I am not a fanatic although I love old iron but do not have the skill or the inclination to return one to top condition. To me a machine is a means to an end and so long as it does the job I want from it then it is OK. Between machining jobs any horizontal surface become temporary storage and I don't get anal about surface rust or polishing the knobs on the machines. I like to make stuff and don't want to spend heaps of time making the machines look good but I don't ignore lubrication and maintenance.

On the other hand I am envious of those that have quality old iron and I have mates that fall into that category. I love visiting their workshops and viewing their machines and the work that they do.

My needs are different to theirs and Chinese machines do what I need to do.

[PDW]

I don't get anal about surface rust or polishing the knobs on the machines.

I never polish the knobs on my Monarch CY lathe.

They came from the factory with such a wonderful deep hard chrome job that 70 years of use haven't even come close to wearing it off.

PDW