Machining a Cast Wheel?

[gazza2009au]

hey guys wondering if there is a small milling machine i could build or purchase to machine this motorcycle wheel?, its a cast motorcycle wheel there are 3 bolt/disc supports that i need to machine down to move the brake disc further in on the wheel
i know i could pay a shop but im hopping in making or buying a machine i could use it in the future as well for other jobs

[Stustoys]

I guess you could do it in a mill but its really a job for a lathe.(though not a small one lol)

What makes you say the disc needs to be moved anyway?

Stuart

[shedhappens]

tiz a bit hard to tell from the pic's but it would need to be done in a lathe, have you
considered making new caliper bracket instead ? The caliper in the 3rd pic already looks close
to the spoke, how much clearance do you have play with ?

[gazza2009au]

I guess you could do it in a mill but its really a job for a lathe.(though not a small one lol)

What makes you say the disc needs to be moved anyway?

Stuart
hey Stu i have a dirt motorcycle im putting "road bike" wheels onto its a new trend called "motard" the original dirt wheel hub is thinner in width than the road wheel so i need to machine the hub thinner

tiz a bit hard to tell from the pic's but it would need to be done in a lathe, have you
considered making new caliper bracket instead ? The caliper in the 3rd pic already looks close
to the spoke, how much clearance do you have play with ?

hey shed i actually need to move the disc in rather than out so i need to take off metal, the 3rd pic is with the wheel on the old road bike swingarm

[Bryan]

What is the diameter of the wheel?

[gazza2009au]

What is the diameter of the wheel?

hey Bryan, its a 17inch wheel


what i'll do is i will remove the disc tomorrow and take a better picture hopefully someone can tell me how much a machine shop will charge

[PDW]

i know i could pay a shop but im hopping in making or buying a machine i could use it in the future as well for other jobs

Short answer - no.

Long answer - sure you could make your own machine to do a job that any competent machine shop could do for maybe $50. It should only take you maybe 5 years and $20,000 to get to that point.

Or you could buy a lathe capable of turning something this big, price between free and sky's the limit. Assuming you can move a big lathe, have the room for it etc etc.

I have a machine capable of doing wheels up to 28" diameter. Paid $100 for it - 30 years ago. Bigger & heavier combined with old is often quite cheap. Might not necessarily work, mind you, but cheap.

PDW

[Stustoys]

the 3rd pic is with the wheel on the old road bike swingarm

lol well that would explain it. I was looking at that picture thinking "looks about right to me" :p
Stuart

[j.ashburn]

I personally err on the side of caution.The question being the remaining structural integrity of the wheel post machining.
By the look the disc is held by bolts.Are the tapped holes going to be deep enough to retain the disc securely?
Are the machine examiners inspecting the modifications if its being raced?
Is the m/cycle being used and registered to ride on public roads?
As previously mentioned an off set bracket to the rigid mounting to the caliper,in that way original engineering is still the same.
I do get asked on occasions to do similar type jobs like this and after looking and inspecting the prospective job i have had to for '' the whats if's'' declined to accept the job.
By all means I do not wish to be negative please give this lots of thought. John.

[beefy]

I reckon you could build a lathe to do that job alone but you'd need to understand a few skills about lining up axis to the spindle, cutting the face of the spindle after installation, etc. If you could gain the understanding from old time books for instance you could probably build a crude but functional lathe to do it for a few hundred dollars.

For the amount of times you might want to do this though, would it be worth it, in terms of time learning how to do it and the cost of materials. Then you might not end up with the finish you'd like compared to a lathe with fine auto feed for the cut.

If you'd love to try and make one because you just like the idea of it then check out Camden books in England, lots of old school books that should give you some insight into how the olden days guys aligned things and got them true.

There's even a booklet there detailing the building of a small lathe. I bought the book myself but just bought a lathe with a five year bank loan LOL. Maybe my kids will read it one day.

Keith

[Bryan]

If you want to build machine tools from scratch, google Gingery. You'll need an uncommon amount of time, patience and dedication, and end up with some pretty dinky machines from what I've seen.

OTOH if you're interested in getting into machining, by all means start researching and shopping. But a machine big enough for this job would not be the usual starting point. There's a good reason for that. A few mishaps are inevitable when you start out. A small machine may bite, but a big one can eat you. Seriously. It could be the difference between a few stitches and a coffin.

In terms of getting this job done I would suggest speaking to some local machine shops. You may find widely divergent attitudes and quotes. Be aware it's virtually impossible to make money doing this sort of one-off work, so if you find a price that seems reasonable to you, it means someone likes you and you're getting a favour.

[beefy]

Hey Bryan,

got a laugh from what you are saying about bigger machines. My first lathe (the one I have now) weighs about 2.5 ton and is 1.5m between centres. I have done a lot of crapping myself in the early days especially when you put it on auto feed and have to remember which levers do what.

If you don't need to do big work a big lathe is also a hassle, much easier on a cute little lathe changing out chucks, putting on fixed and travelling steadies, etc. I had to build a hoist to change my chucks out.

I like your advice. As one machinist said, never get in the direct line of the chuck, there's a few stories of the work flying out and if the machinist had been in the way...............Another story a guy way killed when his loose clothing was pulled into the lathe, horrid thought but the big machines are beasts in disguise.

Keith.

[j.ashburn]

Yep the big stuff''ll get ya.sleeves up, no rings and never a woolly[real wool] jumper wool wont give nylon similar cotton:2tsup:.Long hair? wear a cap.Lost a sleeve of a flannelete cheapo target work shirt once.Close shave and case of instant faecal incontinence.

[Stustoys]

If I was desperate to do it myself, I'd have a hard think about about clamping a compound slide to the swingarm. Find a volunteer to turn the wheel while I fed the slide(doing infeed with tool overhang). Wouldnt want to be in a hurry lol

Stuart

[gazza2009au]

there is two parts to making these wheels fit my motorbike 1: machining the wheel, 2: machining wheel spacers
will a machine this size Sieg C1 10"X5 5" 250x140mm Variable Speed Mini Metal Lathe With Auto Feed | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Sieg-C1-10-x5-5-250x140mm-Variable-Speed-Mini-Metal-Lathe-with-Auto-Feed-/390617496488?pt=AU_HeavyMachinery&hash=item5af29dfba8) be able to machine mild steel billets around 30mm diameter?
the spacers would go something like this OD:30mm, ID:15mm, Length: 40mm
i guess the wheel will have to be machined by a shop, the motorcycle engineer i mentioned who quoted $1000 for the job said he has a lathe big enough to machine a wheel

[PDW]

there is two parts to making these wheels fit my motorbike 1: machining the wheel, 2: machining wheel spacers
will a machine this size Sieg C1 10"X5 5" 250x140mm Variable Speed Mini Metal Lathe With Auto Feed | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Sieg-C1-10-x5-5-250x140mm-Variable-Speed-Mini-Metal-Lathe-with-Auto-Feed-/390617496488?pt=AU_HeavyMachinery&hash=item5af29dfba8) be able to machine mild steel billets around 30mm diameter?
the spacers would go something like this OD:30mm, ID:15mm, Length: 40mm
i guess the wheel will have to be machined by a shop, the motorcycle engineer i mentioned who quoted $1000 for the job said he has a lathe big enough to machine a wheel

$1000? That's somewhat high IMO.

If you were near my shop I'd do it for $100 provided:

it was cash

*and*

we met somewhere so you didn't know where I lived, so that if the wheel fell apart while you were riding it, there was no chance you could hold me responsible.

Otherwise I'd probably just say no, or ask a ridiculous sum to get you to go elsewhere. Problem is, in Australia with our liability laws, you can't sign away the right to sue even if an accident is easily foreseeable and a consequence of something you did knowing the risks.

That lathe would probably get the spacer done but not quickly or well, IMO.

PDW

[gazza2009au]

$1000? That's somewhat high IMO.

If you were near my shop I'd do it for $100 provided:

it was cash

*and*

we met somewhere so you didn't know where I lived, so that if the wheel fell apart while you were riding it, there was no chance you could hold me responsible.

Otherwise I'd probably just say no, or ask a ridiculous sum to get you to go elsewhere. Problem is, in Australia with our liability laws, you can't sign away the right to sue even if an accident is easily foreseeable and a consequence of something you did knowing the risks.

That lathe would probably get the spacer done but not quickly or well, IMO.

PDW
PDW its a common thing to do these days check out this web site MOTARD WHEELS KTM DRZ400 WR450 HUSABERG KLR650 DR650SE with CBR250 cast wheels - supermoto wheels in Brisbane Queensland (http://motard-supermoto-wheels.sportsontheweb.net/) and the responsibility would be on me as im the one putting the bike together first ride could be a :o moment or :U lol

[PDW]

PDW its a common thing to do these days check out this web site MOTARD WHEELS KTM DRZ400 WR450 HUSABERG KLR650 DR650SE with CBR250 cast wheels - supermoto wheels in Brisbane Queensland (http://motard-supermoto-wheels.sportsontheweb.net/) and the responsibility would be on me as im the one putting the bike together first ride could be a :o moment or :U lol

I was serious in what I posted. Problem is you need someone with a pretty big lathe and those beasts are scarce. I'm fortunate enough to have one that can swing 28" in the gap.

Setting up the wheel to turn it would be a bit of a PITA due to its size/shape if it's a one-off. Turning it down is the trivial part.

If it were worthwhile and there were enough to do, I'd make up a spindle mounted mandrel to be a good fit on the wheel bearings to locate the wheel concentrically, then drive it via a bolt or similar in a face plate. Once the tooling was made, doing the turning is quick & simple. That's my first thought anyway.

My big lathe is in my Tasmanian shop so I'm not in a position to do anything for you. Good luck with it, though.

PDW

[gazza2009au]

no worries PDW, the shop i mentioned that would do the whole wheel fitting for $1000 will do any machining i need done

[pipeclay]

If they have quoted $1000 for this as said it may be something they don't really want to do,or there is a lot more to it than just knocking the mounts down.

[j.ashburn]

PDW its a common thing to do these days check out this web site MOTARD WHEELS KTM DRZ400 WR450 HUSABERG KLR650 DR650SE with CBR250 cast wheels - supermoto wheels in Brisbane Queensland (http://motard-supermoto-wheels.sportsontheweb.net/) and the responsibility would be on me as im the one putting the bike together first ride could be a :o moment or :U lol Back to what i said on the first posting I did here.We are becoming a litigious country thanks to likes of some big ambulance chaser law firms that are evening news on the media.Is why I would eer on the fine side of''caution'' doing these jobs.There is always some ''bum'' out there will do these jobs for a quick quid with no care and responsibility.Worse off they usually are void of assets to claim should litigation occur.
Finally you cannot guarantee what or where the [in this case] rider or owner will do.We have a legal obligation here in Victoria when inspecting a m/cycle to be looking for modification.Also tyre depth must be measured in company with the presenter of the machine and the time recorded as well.Been cases where 9 am tyres were ok at 4pm same day the bike off the Gt Ocean rd with no tread left and a dead or maimed rider.So it boils down to C Y A in these circumstances[cover your a.....se] .John.

[Bryan]

I could swing it without the tyre, but I'm too far away. How much does the rotor need to come in? Is it an option to remount the caliper instead? Is it an option to space the whole wheel across? A few mm shouldn't be a problem.

A grand sounds like a lot, but I guess they're covering themselves for unforseen headaches - as well as making it worth their while. Personally I would be finding a cheaper way.

PS: You didn't use the word 'billet' by any chance, when talking to that machine shop?

[Hunch]

Where abouts in NSW are you, it's rather large!

Can think of one person at least outside the metropolitan area who does large car racing wheels and that looks like a piece of p in comparison unless there's something obvious I'm not picking up. Whether he's inclined to do it, couldn't answer.

[maggs]

There is another possible option that is worth consideration. Get a hold of a swingarm that suits the rim you have and modify the swingarm to fit your frame. It's generally easier and safer to do it this way. Most swingarm mods only require basic hand tools and maybe a welder. If you choose a steel swingarm it is easy to weld with a normal stick welder. Even if you have to make the entire pivot tube and weld it on it's not that difficult provided you mock it up in position and align it all correctly then tack it up.

If you can find a swingarm that is slightly narrower than your frame then you only need a spacer. I've often seen complete swingarm and wheels off roadies on ebay for less than $100, especially steel ones.

I totally understand why engineering shops don't want to do these mods as it can easily end up in their lap if things go pear shaped. You can also get some more advice/tips from bike modding sites like streetfighters.com.au (http://www.streetfighters.com.au) as they have guys that are doing these types of mods all the time.

Steve

[gazza2009au]

ok lets clear this up the $1000 i was quoted is from a motorcycle engineer in sydney he mentioned he has "done heaps" (actually shop owners words) of these modded bikes but they have only done the XR650's for racing mine is a baby 250cc so its a little different, ive also been to this shop in person and had a crankshaft rebuilt by these guys and they know there stuff

the thing is with modding the road wheels to fit a dirt bike is all about alignment the wheels need to be centered and also the disc brakes needs to be centered otherwise it could turn awkward or even the brakes could lock up if not done properly but keep in mind this isnt brain surgery and if i go a head i will be using a laser light to align the wheels for precise measurement for machining

than there is the test riding people dont just jump on the bike and go YEHHHHHHH HAAAAA, there will be gradual steps taking to ensure the bike handles ok before its ridden to full potential, i do have over 20 years of motocross and road riding skills guys so im not a noob :doh:

this is the part needing machining its a sprocket carrier the section in the square needs to be machined all around and from the sprocket side in 10mm

also can someone point me to a dealer in oz who sells the harbour freight 7x10 metal lathe?

[Bryan]

Well the sprocket carrier is a lot smaller and easier to machine than a whole rim. Guess we wasted some time on that. :doh:
So how thick are those lugs, 20mm? You want to halve them? :no:

[gazza2009au]

Well the sprocket carrier is a lot smaller and easier to machine than a whole rim. Guess we wasted some time on that. :doh:
So how thick are those lugs, 20mm? You want to halve them? :no:

its about 20mm i do have a tig welder i can build up the back so that isnt a problem

[gazza2009au]

machining the sprocket carrier has been done check out post 5 here CBR wheels on XR600 - XR600/650 - ThumperTalk (http://www.thumpertalk.com/topic/546404-cbr-wheels-on-xr600/)

im thinking i could just buy a XY milling table and use a drill press to machine it

[Bryan]

go for it

[PDW]

machining the sprocket carrier has been done check out post 5 here CBR wheels on XR600 - XR600/650 - ThumperTalk (http://www.thumpertalk.com/topic/546404-cbr-wheels-on-xr600/)

im thinking i could just buy a XY milling table and use a drill press to machine it

As long as machining the sprocket carrier back doesn't go far enough to need to move the bearing recesses in the hub, no huge dramas. Still need a big lathe because the whole wheel needs to turn. I was assuming only the hub needed to be modified anyway, not the rim.

As for using a drill press as a mill, good luck with that idea. Many have had the same thought, almost none have ever succeeded in doing anything other than breaking tooling and damaging parts.

A drill press spindle is NOT designed to take side loads. Putting a side load on a Morse taper shank is a guaranteed way to get it to release. That's why mills with Morse tapers also have hollow quills and the tooling is restrained via a threaded draw bar. Drill presses just have tanged shank recesses. Put a side load on a tool in one and it will release.

Not to mention it'd need to be a pretty good sized X-Y table anyway and then you find the (lack of) rigidity of the drill press table with a pile of cast iron, then clamps, then your wheel, mounted up, all cantilevered out. Got a good dial indicator to check the hub is at right angles to the drill spindle? How about a rotary table to get it to spin, or were you planning on rotating the drill press table with the XY table bolted on top?

By the time you rig this lot up and buy all the bits then see it doesn't work, the $1000 for a pro to do it is going to look cheap. I say this as a person who'd FAR rather buy tools than pay someone else to do anything, too.

As for a HF lathe, they're just generic Chinese manufactured junk same as what you can buy on Aussie Ebay. No reason to not buy from one of the local suppliers if that's what you want. Take a hike to Hare & Forbes, get an idea of what you get for your dollars first. I dropped by there the other day and let's say I was underwhelmed with the fits.

This is a very do-able job, don't think I'm trying to say it's not. But you either need a big mill or a big lathe simply due to the wheel diameter.

PDW

[beefy]

Back to what i said on the first posting I did here.We are becoming a litigious country thanks to likes of some big ambulance chaser law firms that are evening news on the media.Is why I would eer on the fine side of''caution'' doing these jobs.There is always some ''bum'' out there will do these jobs for a quick quid with no care and responsibility.Worse off they usually are void of assets to claim should litigation occur.
.John.

So now are machinists taking the responsibility for the end use of a chunk of metal they machine. I find that is crazy and it means a machinist has to know/recognise any item that comes into the workshop, how it's used on the machinery it's fitted to and the potential negative results of modifications. It's impractical and just about impossible. Any legal ramifications should fall with the customer that brings the part to the machine shop. OK a motorcycle wheel is recognisable but many "chunks of metal" won't be, so what does a machinist do, interogate the customer for every part they don't recognise. That would be a quick way to go out of business, and then they can only HOPE the customer is telling them the truth.

No wonder our modern day stress levels are rising so much, whether you go to jail is getting more a matter of luck than anything else. I think any machinist who sets themselves up to be devoid of assets for this type of liability is wise, not sneaky, because modern day law and regulations do not always put responsibility where it belongs.

Keith.

[j.ashburn]

So now are machinists taking the responsibility for the end use of a chunk of metal they machine. I find that is crazy and it means a machinist has to know/recognise any item that comes into the workshop, how it's used on the machinery it's fitted to and the potential negative results of modifications. It's impractical and just about impossible. Any legal ramifications should fall with the customer that brings the part to the machine shop. OK a motorcycle wheel is recognisable but many "chunks of metal" won't be, so what does a machinist do, interogate the customer for every part they don't recognise. That would be a quick way to go out of business, and then they can only HOPE the customer is telling them the truth.

No wonder our modern day stress levels are rising so much, whether you go to jail is getting more a matter of luck than anything else. I think any machinist who sets themselves up to be devoid of assets for this type of liability is wise, not sneaky, because modern day law and regulations do not always put responsibility where it belongs.

Keith.
Professionals insure themselves heavily for negligence,indemnity.Some industries we associate with every day are too. Regulated trades are legislated and usually have their own integrated insurance poliicies as members of their associations.
In the trades we belong to is really up to the individual to make a choice when enterring into a 'contractural agreement with the customer. It is happening every second as we speak some where.We all do it unconsciously every time we make a purchase.
Of course we do have earn our daily bread but as quoted stress levels rise when we consider what or where the out come of that job we took on will occur.
Common sense is the only thing we can apply when assessing a job coming in the door.
Let me quote a true scenario.
A customer turned up once at my workshop with a rag full of contents in his hand. Placed them on the desk opened out the rag and there were these sleeve nuts. he asked ''have you got a 3/8 BSF tap? '' these threads are a bit ''daggy'' and i want you to run a tap through them''.I inspected the nuts and noticed that the threads were only about 50% of the original thread .I went and got the tap reluctantly after advising the customer that those nuts were sub standard.Returning with the tap I happened to ask what the nuts were off.He replied ''Oh they are the propellor nuts off my Tiger Moth [aircraft].An under the breath magpie call by me F.........aark.With that I promptly gave him the tap his nuts and said.''Go away I do not want to know Its your head your plane.kindly return the tap when you done.
So does this scenario play on our conscience after all we have our doors open to one and all. John.

[Bryan]

I get the feeling I'm going to regret weighing into this. But any of us could be faced with this situation, so it seems worth considering.

If you're a machinist it's your job to know more than the customer. It's also your duty - in a common decency sense - to advise them if you think they're doing something dangerous. Where you go from there is a grey area. I have no idea of the actual legalities, but I would think if you did say it was dangerous and went ahead anyway it would look bad. If you played 3 wise monkeys I guess you could plead ignorance. But that's inconsistent with point 1. Dunno. Anyone willing to admit being a lawyer? :)

[j.ashburn]

How often we get this situation.''Make us up one of these''. sample provided and no tolerance given.what do we do guestimation??
Had a farmer turn up here once with a tractor clutch plate.''make us a pilot shaft for clutch alignment''.made a nice sliding fit one and sent him on his way.Came back a hour later with the new clutch plate pilot shaft wouldnt fit.Red faced me takes a light skim on the shaft for a slide
fit on new plate.Lesson learned.
I am not a qualified legal practioner,just wanting to indicate to those who are interested that yes we are responsible for our actions and may contribute to the negligence of others [i tender this as food for thought] John.

[PDW]

I get the feeling I'm going to regret weighing into this. But any of us could be faced with this situation, so it seems worth considering.

If you're a machinist it's your job to know more than the customer. It's also your duty - in a common decency sense - to advise them if you think they're doing something dangerous. Where you go from there is a grey area. I have no idea of the actual legalities, but I would think if you did say it was dangerous and went ahead anyway it would look bad. If you played 3 wise monkeys I guess you could plead ignorance. But that's inconsistent with point 1. Dunno. Anyone willing to admit being a lawyer? :)

I only do machining jobs for beer (or wine). If anything goes wrong, my memory extends only as far as the beer lasted, no longer.

If things went well, my memory can be refreshed with more of the correct beverage.

This assumes the person wanting something done brings me all the material needed, drawing, etc. If I think what someone wants is stupid or dangerous, suddenly I'm too busy to get to it, maybe next year.....

OTOH I'll do things for people who will do things for me. Cash alone has no leverage.... well if it was a totally stupid amount it might. But probably not if it was something stupid or grossly illegal.

PDW

[beefy]

There are some points being brought up regarding the morals of continuing to do some machining when you think it could endanger others - I couldn't agree more.

But I am talking purely legally because too many times it's a grey area, and it can become more a matter of who has the smarter lawyer, not what is right in the situation at hand.

The worst part of it is that a machinist could be bankrupted just through defending himself in court (even if he is found not guilty) against a customer who is trying to pass blame onto him.

I wonder if a standard disclaimer could protect the machinist against idiot customers. Something along the lines where the customer signs a document saying the modification of said parts will not cause danger or put lives at risk, etc, etc. But like I said earlier, I bet doing something along those lines will lose you customers. Plus in todays legal world even signed disclaimers like that can be thrown out the window in court.

I say thumbs up to the smart business guys who don't legally own any assets. OK some do it for very corrupt reasons and I'm not including those, but in this day and age it's almost the equivalent of protective insurance.

Keith.

[j.ashburn]

Yep disclaimers, motor racing tickets with the blurb on the back dont mean a thing in the hands of a good ''silk'' these days.
Another thing not to forget these questionable jobs mostly have been ''hawked around'' the district often before arriving at your premises.Even had ph calls from a related shop,''look out so and so is on his way.Happens up here in the bush, jungle drums work faster than Telstra up here. John.

[Karl Robbers]

I get the feeling I'm going to regret weighing into this. But any of us could be faced with this situation, so it seems worth considering.

If you're a machinist it's your job to know more than the customer. It's also your duty - in a common decency sense - to advise them if you think they're doing something dangerous. Where you go from there is a grey area. I have no idea of the actual legalities, but I would think if you did say it was dangerous and went ahead anyway it would look bad. If you played 3 wise monkeys I guess you could plead ignorance. But that's inconsistent with point 1. Dunno. Anyone willing to admit being a lawyer? :)
Well said.
To be quite blunt, when a "customer" approaches us with some hare brained scheme, do we really care greatly whether we make it happen or not? Yes there is pride and professional competence, but these will soon pale into insignificance when you are sitting in the dock!
To use this case of modifying a wheel as an example. The suggestions put forward by the OP, tell us one thing above all others - he has no idea. Sorry if that offends, but it is the truth. Because he has no idea, he approaches persons with knowledge, therefore the fact that we have knowledge also means that we also have responsibility. The definition of "Duty of Care" constantly refers back to "what a reasonable person would do". A reasonable person being a natural person of average intelligence.
In the course of my trade I have said NO on many occasions. Welding suspension components, making Aluminium Machinery Loading Ramps, Welding Aluminium Truck Rims and welding Forklift Tines come to mind. So it is with this job. If this bike is to be registered, (including RV), then an Engineers Certificate will be required. If for racing use then other regulatory bodies will be involved.
The idea of welding the mounts to add thickness has been put forward. Can the quality of the weld be verified and does the welder have a knowledge of the weld procedure required, if in fact the material/component is weldable.
There is a vast difference between "can be done" and "should be done". I for one would not put my house, reputation and freedom on the line for a project with so many unaccounted for variables. And no, the three wise monkeys defence will not work because there is clearly documented evidence of what the "customer" intends to do, plus, what else would a motorcycle rim be used for other than a motorcycle.
I have worked on components for aircraft, CAMS approved Roll Cages and pressure vessels, in every case there is a standard referred to, that standard and your compliance with it is your defence if it all goes pear shaped. So it also is with motorcycle wheels. Give me a document from an engineer or an extract from a recognised standard and I'll do it, if not - SORRY NO CAN DO.

[beefy]

Interesting stuff Karl.

So I wonder where a machinist stands when he is brought some already manufactured part, doesn't recognise it, and is asked to modify it in some way. He can ask the customer what it is for and let's say (based on what the customer explains) no future safety risk can be foreseen, or the customer just plain lied about it's use.

Is a machinist then potentially liable for any negative outcomes arising from modifications to the part. I mean there are an infinite number of machine parts that a machinist won't have a clue what they're used for. Under those conditions, isn't he nothing more than a machinist who knows machining, and is performing a machining service for the customer. A customer could lie about the parts use just to get them machined, then later (when an accident happens) claim he told the machinist the true use of the parts.

Keith.

[Michael G]

I think you start getting into tricky legal situations.
It starts getting into what would the average person (perhaps machinist) think? Is that a part that is recognisably from a firearm that you are modifying or is it a block of steel? Is that an aircraft part that you are machining or a piece of Al that needs some extra holes drilled in it? (Added question - are the modifications sensible or will they weaken the part or allow a function that is not permitted)

Michael

[shedhappens]

Is that a part that is recognisably from a firearm that you are modifying or is it a block of steel? Michael

I have been asked to make silencers a few times now, each time I have told them to go to the gun shop and get them to do it, and each time they say, but they wont do it coz it is illegal.................der !

But I have modified quite a few M/cycle's, some for the road (engineers cert for these), some for the track, and never had any problems.

How many people in here have made their own saw benches, grinders, go karts ect ?

These days going for a drive in the car is like running the gauntlet, cops cameras and wombats everywhere but we all still do it.

Commonsense prevails.

[Steamwhisperer]

You guys got me thinking about what I did when a job came into my shop like that. First thing was to ask as many questions as I could about the end use. It was pretty easy to suss out the rogues and deviants from a bit of interrogation :wink:.
Most times there was a better way of going about doing what they wanted, to get the same end result.
I also found that by giving a full description of the part and it's intended use (as I believed it to be) on the invoice took out a lot of grey areas should it attempt to come back and bite me.
I was once asked to make a gun silencer and after pointing out it was illegal, the reply was "good answer". Seems it was a policeman trying to find out who was making them.
I was also asked to make a component to fit the rotor of a helicopter. I just looked at him with my mouth open. He quickly pointed out that it wasn't a flight component but I still stood there with my mouth open until he went out to the car and brought back the drawings of grease plunger cap for pressing grease into the rotor bearings showing that this part is not on board during flight. "No worries" I said:D
I am confident that only fools will get into trouble.
I am also confident that gazza is no fool as after reading his posts I don't get the feeling this is something he woke up one morning with and said, "that'll work"
Just my thoughts and I am ready to be flamed:D

Phil

[j.ashburn]

Hi Gents,am pleased that my input here has been thought provoking.I did post this in good faith to maybe reinforce that we now live in a new millenium.An era that is now fraught with danger and perhaps litigation lurking for the un wary.
I personally can tell you numerous stories of woe from 40 plus yrs.Added to that input 100 years of family experiences.
With out fanfare and being a relative ''newbie'' to this forum,was a personal thought to make comment.
All criticism will be taken ''on the chin'' Cheers all John.

[PDW]

I am confident that only fools will get into trouble.
I am also confident that gazza is no fool as after reading his posts I don't get the feeling this is something he woke up one morning with and said, "that'll work"
Just my thoughts and I am ready to be flamed:D

Phil

Yeah, agree the wheel job isn't unreasonable or stupid, just requires a pretty big machine to do it.

OTOH thinking of using a drill press as a milling machine does demonstrate a certain lack of knowledge of the use of machine tools and their limitations....

PDW

[beefy]

Hi Gents,am pleased that my input here has been thought provoking.I did post this in good faith to maybe reinforce that we now live in a new millenium.An era that is now fraught with danger and perhaps litigation lurking for the un wary.
I personally can tell you numerous stories of woe from 40 plus yrs.Added to that input 100 years of family experiences.
With out fanfare and being a relative ''newbie'' to this forum,was a personal thought to make comment.
All criticism will be taken ''on the chin'' Cheers all John.

I am not at the point of doing paid work with all my machinery but am working towards it. This thread could turn out to be a life saver down the track when I innocently machine / modify a "peice of metal". I will always ask the use of the part, put it in writing in the invoice, etc, and anything else I can to protect myself from litigation, and innocent people from harm. If the customer doesn't like that then maybe he has something to hide, so it's worth losing the business.

Anyone wanting gun silencers made would no doubt tell all his "freinds" about the dodgy machinist that will take on these jobs. Then you'd have all the rogues coming to your shop. The thought of an undercover policeman pretending to be a dodgy customer is also food for thought :D Didn't seem a good investigative technique by that policeman to let the cat out of the bag that he was an undercover cop. That sort of blew his cover and could have had one machinist warning other about him.

Your input certainly has been thought provoking and educational.

Keith.

[gazza2009au]

i have a different motorbike now and the wheel pictured in this thread is a perfect fit no machining needed to be done to the wheel, however i need to machine wheel spacers from steel or aluminium wheel spacers vary from OD:40mm, ID:22mm and xxx amount of length, will this micro lathe do the job cutting steel or aluminium? BORUM SPACE SAVER LATHE. RED HOT PRICE LIMITED STOCK! (http://www.transquip.com.au/products/BORUM-SPACE-SAVER-LATHE..html#)

[PDW]

i have a different motorbike now and the wheel pictured in this thread is a perfect fit no machining needed to be done to the wheel, however i need to machine wheel spacers from steel or aluminium wheel spacers vary from OD:40mm, ID:22mm and xxx amount of length, will this micro lathe do the job cutting steel or aluminium? BORUM SPACE SAVER LATHE. RED HOT PRICE LIMITED STOCK! (http://www.transquip.com.au/products/BORUM-SPACE-SAVER-LATHE..html#)

Probably but I wouldn't bet $400 of *my* money on it. 125mm between centres, 50mm chuck. no compound slide, it isn't really a lathe, it's something I might give to an 8 y/o as a Christmas toy.

PDW

[steamboatbrucey]

Gazza Mate i know your pain

Yes it will do the job but like a spool gun its a bit half assed. If you only want to turn wheel spacers then yes it will do the job.

But thats all it will do you will find yourself wishing the first time you need to turn a taper why didn't i get the bigger one with a compound slide

I will say this though after a page of waffle about the legalities and align yourself with some mates and learn about mods etc try not to talk about it here too much

Before i get howled down some body better re read the last page and a half of entries on this forum and started moderating Silencers mods to guns etc you guys need to get a grip
Gazza asks a simple question how to mod some wheels, tell him to visit a machine shop with a Mill and a rotary table thats how i did mine.

Tell him you need maximum amount of material ie check to see if the casting is hollow at that point if not machine away I can see by the wheels its solid

Tell him to double check with the Bible that is ADR;s you will see there is no issue with welding wheels etc or suspension components with motorcycles
Its different with cars

Guys before this becomes a witch hunt please check you facts

Good luck with it Gazza

PS Yes i did un lace a hub weld it up and re lace it and you know what it works better then new

Bruce

[gazza2009au]

Gazza Mate i know your pain

Yes it will do the job but like a spool gun its a bit half assed. If you only want to turn wheel spacers then yes it will do the job.

But thats all it will do you will find yourself wishing the first time you need to turn a taper why didn't i get the bigger one with a compound slide

I will say this though after a page of waffle about the legalities and align yourself with some mates and learn about mods etc try not to talk about it here too much

Before i get howled down some body better re read the last page and a half of entries on this forum and started moderating Silencers mods to guns etc you guys need to get a grip
Gazza asks a simple question how to mod some wheels, tell him to visit a machine shop with a Mill and a rotary table thats how i did mine.

Tell him you need maximum amount of material ie check to see if the casting is hollow at that point if not machine away I can see by the wheels its solid

Tell him to double check with the Bible that is ADR;s you will see there is no issue with welding wheels etc or suspension components with motorcycles
Its different with cars

Guys before this becomes a witch hunt please check you facts

Good luck with it Gazza

PS Yes i did un lace a hub weld it up and re lace it and you know what it works better then new

Bruce
hey bruce thanks mate :U, the wheels are DOT/ADR approved also these cast wheels are used in a lot of motard races around the world on these bikes i think everyone was thinking im trying to invent something new :C,
im sure i can lace some hubs bruce but i now have a WR426F which is notorious for blowing gearbox's on the streets, there is 2 options no:1 is buy a cush drive hub wait for it.... @ $550 for a rear hub alone than 2 rims,spokes,nipples,front hub im looking at USD$1350 without tires lol
the second option is to use the cast wheels and just machine wheel spacers (the rear has the luxury cush drive) and all the research has been done and guys world wide are using this site WR450 MOTARD CONVERSIONS: supermoto cast wheels WR450F kits with cush drive (http://motard-supermoto-wheels.sportsontheweb.net/wr450-wr450f-cast-wheels-supermoto.htm) for the conversion info so all i need is a lathe that can machine the wheel spacers and im set if i do one set of rims it pays for its self :; plus i save a bunch of cash :U
thanks for understanding where im coming from bruce i think the whole motard sport is still relatively new to australia so people are saying WHAT THE HECK THAT AINT RIGHT :U

[steamboatbrucey]

Gazza

I have been watching motard from its beginnings in france and the uk it started out as super mono classes so 25 years ago

Mate for bullet proof reliability go the mags straight up easy and quick and bucket loads of donor wheel sets for cheap and yes the cush drive is super important in prolonging the gearbox even lash out on new rubber inserts for the wheel. it is that important those 465 engines are super quick but you pay for it it terms of reliability and keeping on top of the service side of things.

Even more important does yours still have the original titanium valves ? if so and its not brand new get rid of them now other wise they will be poking a hole in the piston in short order. you need to get some black diamond valves in before it drops them.

That conversion web site is pretty good go with the 6 spoke they are actually lighter then the three

But mate even a 180 x 300 mini lathe is better you need to get a bit bigger machine it will last you longer

Bruce

[gazza2009au]

Gazza

I have been watching motard from its beginnings in france and the uk it started out as super mono classes so 25 years ago

Mate for bullet proof reliability go the mags straight up easy and quick and bucket loads of donor wheel sets for cheap and yes the cush drive is super important in prolonging the gearbox even lash out on new rubber inserts for the wheel. it is that important those 465 engines are super quick but you pay for it it terms of reliability and keeping on top of the service side of things.

Even more important does yours still have the original titanium valves ? if so and its not brand new get rid of them now other wise they will be poking a hole in the piston in short order. you need to get some black diamond valves in before it drops them.

That conversion web site is pretty good go with the 6 spoke they are actually lighter then the three

But mate even a 180 x 300 mini lathe is better you need to get a bit bigger machine it will last you longer

Bruce
wow i never knew motards were around that long learn something new everyday, yeah the cast wheels are ideal as i already have a rear wheel from my last project/bike

im not sure about the valves as i just purchased this bike, the last owner said he had a full engine rebuild done he didnt say when but did mention the engine has only done 12 hours work

i will try find the bigger lathe but ive noticed the price takes off after a couple smaller models so i will be limited in what lathe i can buy

[pipeclay]

That lathe may or may not be capable of doing your spacers.

If you have the opportunity to see it in the flesh will give you more of an idea.

Small chuck will it hold 40mm od stock.

22mm bore will the tailstock hold a suitable size drill.

125 between centres,will you be able to hold xxx length in chuck and still fit a drill in tailstock for drilling.

[PDW]

That lathe may or may not be capable of doing your spacers.

If you have the opportunity to see it in the flesh will give you more of an idea.

Small chuck will it hold 40mm od stock.

22mm bore will the tailstock hold a suitable size drill.

125 between centres,will you be able to hold xxx length in chuck and still fit a drill in tailstock for drilling.

I sold an old flat belt Hercus recently for $350 including a fair bit of tooling and it was 100X as useful as that thing linked to.

However, some people just have to learn for themselves.

PDW

[malb]

Re the Borum lathe linked to, the specs in the link say 150W motor, which is on par with a Dremel, a lousy 12V battery drill, or a sewing machine. Yes it might turn and face the spacers you want to make, but the depth of cut would be miniscule and it would really be struggling to actually drill the hole for the axle to pass through depending on the spacer length required (listed as xxx). Also, if the spacer is to be 40mm OD and 22mm ID, that only leaves a 9mm wall thickness in contact with the swingarm, is that sufficient?

[steamboatbrucey]

In motorcycle terms a 9 mm wall thickness is huge a 22 mm axle is big it wasnt so long ago that most 1100 m/c got around race tracks just fine with 17 mm axles

Postie bikes have 12 mm axles to give a comparative strength and a spacer diameter of 20.

The wheel spacer can be 4 mm wall minimum which is the bearing race dia at that point anyway its always kept at about 8 mm wall to stop it eating into the swing arm over time.

There is little sideways force on a motorcycle wheel its all lateral

Lathe choice for a young bloke will always be difficult mini lathe whilst your renting decent lathe when you have your own shed. it doesent work renting and lugging about 400 kilos of lathe around after you

Bruce

[gazza2009au]

guys will a lathe this size machine the wheel spacers? Lathe in Brisbane, QLD | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/lathe-/321170247950?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item4ac73d110e)

[nearnexus]

guys will a lathe this size machine the wheel spacers? Lathe in Brisbane, QLD | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/lathe-/321170247950?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item4ac73d110e)

In alloy - yes.

I'd be looking at a 7 x 12 or similar.

Strip off the bits and you can lift that around, and has half decent capabilities.

Rob

[gazza2009au]

last time i show u guys a used lathe on ebay :p look at the price now! previous auctions for the same lathe has seen it sold for just over $200


In alloy - yes.

I'd be looking at a 7 x 12 or similar.

Strip off the bits and you can lift that around, and has half decent capabilities.

Rob

hey rob, i dont have much room in my shed i only have a 3x3m garden shed so im not sure where i'd put a bigger lathe, so i'd ideally like one of the smaller mini lathes, and at this moment the lathe is pretty much for a one off job and that is the wheel spacers
a machine shop has previously quoted me $400 to machine similar wheel spacers so i figured if i spent around that much on a lathe i could come out even and be up one tool in the shed or even sell the lathe and pocket all the cash