Who is the best contemporary saw maker?????

[DSEL74]

I have been hiding away the last few days so have been spending some of my time in solitude researching saw making and saw makers. Which leads me to this question:

Who is the best contemporary saw maker?????



I have come across some of these names:

Ron - Bontz Saw works

Bad Axe Tool Works

TGIAG Toolworks (Two Guys in a Garage)

Rob Cosman

Mike Wenzloff - Wenzeloff & Sons

Matt Cianci



Feel free to add your opinion and vote for the best contemporary saw maker?????

[DSEL74]

Klaus & Pedder -Two Lawyers Toolworks

[FenceFurniture]

I don't think it's that simple to qualify. It's a bit like Benz/BMW/Audi/Jag/ etc. All damn fine cars - which one do you like the best? Well, the one that has the features that suit me best. (i.e blade length, handle hang yadda - it's all personal).

[hiroller]

Other quality makers include:
Grammercy
Gramercy Tools (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/dept/CGT)
Lie-Nielsen
Lie-Nielsen Toolworks USA | Saws (http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?cat=507)
Veritas
Veritas® Molded-Spine Saws - Lee Valley Tools - Woodworking Tools, Gardening Tools, Hardware Supplies (http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=68511&cat=1,42884)
Pax
High quality Pax Saws made in Sheffield by Thomas Flinn & Co (http://www.flinn-garlick-saws.co.uk/acatalog/Pax_Range.html)
A whole swag of Japanese alternatives:
Saws : Tools from Japan, Japanese woodworking tools direct from Japan. (http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=316&zenid=e309f664c3052400d7d8885749bee4d9)
You can even make your own!

However, I find the best one use on the day is the sharp one! :U

[GraemeCook]

I don't think it's that simple to qualify. It's a bit like Benz/BMW/Audi/Jag/ etc. All damn fine cars - which one do you like the best?


I think that is the point. Jaguar were a damn fine car fifty years ago when they were making the E-Type and the Mark II, but then they let quality control slip. Remember the old quip that one should always buy two Jags - one to drive while the other was being fixed.

Stanley used to make fine quality tools at good prices, then they did a Jag. But Stanley still exist and all of their high quality competitors have long since disappeared.

We all love those saws from Big-chains where the steel is almost as hard as radiata, do we not??



Fair Winds

Graeme

[DSEL74]

That is exactly the point to discuss who is making what, how, innovating, quality and price. Why you like which one, and why it suits you. The idea was to create some debate & discussion.

[ian]

I have been hiding away the last few days so have been spending some of my time in solitude researching saw making and saw makers. Which leads me to this question:

Who is the best contemporary saw maker?????now that's a very philosophical question

what is the common understanding, at least among us, of "best" ?
do we even have to agree on what constitutes "best" ?
can we even agree on which attributes of a saw should be included when determing "best"
are we talking Western saws, Japanese saws, back saws, panel saws, cross cut saws, rip saws, dovetail saws, tree felling saws, etc ?

does the measure apply to a maker's entire range of saws or can "best" be applied to one particular saw within a maker's product range.

Then what is meant by contemporary ?
does the maker need to currently making saws, or just still living and breathing ? e.g. Pete Tarrant
if the maker is recently deceased are they still "contemporay" because some of their saws can still be purchased new?

I'm sure the perspectives go on ...

[Bushmiller]

The Forum's own IanW is not too bad. I have my order in :D.

Regards
Paul

[Claw Hama]

I have three LN's 10" progressive pitch dovetail, 14" tenon, 20" handsaw, I rate them highly. But I have a Bad Axe 18" Tenon that was made exactly as I asked for and is amazing. I also have a 12" Wenzloff that I love to use and is the one I usually reach for first. I think that Mark from Bad Axe gives you so many options in looks as well as tooth shape and other options it's great. He wanted to know what I cut, how I cut it and everything but the colour of my eyes. I got exactly the saw I specified. I would should sell off my LN's and swap over to more Bad Axes and look shyt hot. Which is best I don't know:roll:

[yowie]

I like my Makita drop sawhttp://www.woodworkforums.com/images/icons/icon12.png

[derekcohen]

Backsaws began their resurgence in the 80s with the Independence Tools dovetail saw under Pete Taran and Patrick Leach (of SuperTools). The company was bought out by Lie-Nielsen, who have continued to manufacture it ever since.

Adria saws, under Eddie Sirotich in Canada, were the first real alternative. I think he started in the early or mid 90s.

On the other side of the Pond, Thomas Finn was busy building Garlick, and there was also Roberts & Lee, Crown and Pax. All still around.

There were a few guys making saws part time, such as Spehar and Leif Hanson, but I could argue that the next generation of custom sawmakers started around 2000 with my friend Mike Wenzloff. He was soon followed by Gramercy, Eccentric Toolworks, and Medallion Toolworks, another Canadian sawmaker. Of these, only Wenzloff and Gramercy remain.

Canada is again represented by Lee Valley and Rob Cosman.

The latest crop of sawmakers include Badaxe (Mark Harrell), Ron Bontz ..... Two Lawyers Toolworks (Klaus & Pedder) are no longer making saws owing to the allergies experienced by Klaus, although I am sure they will return at some stage.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[yowie]

Only joking about the Makita thing...

Honest question though -

I use one of those Japanese pull saws for all my dovetailing and tenons. I find that they cut straight and easily through endgrain Jarrah with a very thin kerf. Is an expensive saw really worth it or is it more
for show but not much better results?
In other words, I can appreciate how a well made tennon saw would be better than a cheap tennon saw, but is it better than a cheap Jap pull saw?

[Sawdust Maker]

I treated myself to a set of the Veritas Dovetail and Crosscut saws here (http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=64007&cat=1,42884,68511&ap=1)

I must say I'm beginning to see what the fuss is about. My previous use saws were hardware store sourced. These are magic in comparison, a pleasure to use. I do wonder what one of the 'revered' highend saws might feel like to use, might have to sneak into Claw's workshop and test his bespoke saw! :D

I've used a couple of Japanese saws and I do like them but the pull saw action is a little unnatural to me and I find myself bending the blade on the push :doh:

Oh and I do like my Husqvana:p

[LGS]

Lie Nielson and Bahco.

[mn pete]

I picked up a set of the Lee Valley Dovetail and Carcass saws last year and they are fantastic. I've not used the LN or any of the higher end custom saws, but the LV saws really seem to be the best bang for the buck, based on all the feedback I've heard from others.

[MarvW]

I have been hiding away the last few days so have been spending some of my time in solitude researching saw making and saw makers. Which leads me to this question:

Who is the best contemporary saw maker?????



I have come across some of these names:

Ron - Bontz Saw works

Bad Axe Tool Works

TGIAG Toolworks (Two Guys in a Garage)

Rob Cosman

Mike Wenzloff - Wenzeloff & Sons

Matt Cianci



Feel free to add your opinion and vote for the best contemporary saw maker?????

New to the forum here, so please excuse my barging in.... :roll:

In my opinion, the best saw will be one with a handle that fits and feels right in your hand. The hang of the handle is important and will effect how the saw cuts, but that will have a lot to do with how you use a saw and what you use the saw for. This goes for backsaws and regular handsaws, both panel and longer saws. Now, if you find a saw that satisfies all those points, it then becomes a matter of the size of the teeth and how the teeth are filed. Thickness of the blade is a big factor. Most saw makers of today have more than one person doing the filing, usually hand filing. Filing small teeth in a backsaw is tedious and tiring and requires a certain skill level to do it right and consistent. This is going to vary from saw maker to saw maker and even from day to day with each maker. You can conceivably buy three of the same model saw from the same saw maker and get three saws that cut differently. The variables in saws in general is endless. It is such a subjective issue, it is nearly impossible to determine who is the "best" saw maker. I will say though, the "best" saw maker for you, will be one who will ask all the questions they need to know so they can make a saw that is suited for you as an individual. Expect to pay more for a saw of this kind compared to saws that are made on a production basis.

Marv:)

[Sawdust Maker]

Welcome to the forum, Marv.

Barging in's OK just don't step on too many toes :U

[IanW]

I think Marv has summed it up pretty well. You could equally ask "Who is making the best the best hand plane?". There is no simple answer to either question.

Before Skilsaws & Drop saws, so many saws for ostensibly the same purpose came in an almost endless variety of sizes and tooth pitches, so I think there has always been a very wide set of preferences in saws (& no doubt some healthy debate on which attributes were more important!!).

The law of diminishing returns applies to just about everything in this world, and saws are no exception. You can buy a very good saw like the Veritas models, that come sharp, cut straight, & are reasonably comfortable to hold, for a reasonable sum. Or, you can pay three times the price for a saw which might be 'better' in some respects, but almost certainly not 3 times better in any of these qualities. Factory saws are made to suit the 'average' person, and so there are compromises. Having a saw custom-made to your specs means you can reduce compromises, but unless you are someone like Claw Hama who uses saws all day every day, it's hard to know what tweaks to ask for that will make a long-term difference for you. My advice to anyone starting out in the handsaw world is to get their hands on as wide a variety of saws as possible and use them, to discover what suits them best. Unfortunately, it's not easy to get your hands on a lot of decent saws in one place, in order to make comparisons. In any case, your tastes will probably change over time, so it's probably not a good idea to splurge too much early-on.

There have been several discussions on the qualities that matter in backsaws on the "Hand Tools- unpowered" section of the Forum. The general consensus is that a "good" saw is one that has a handle that fits your hand for the position in which you commonly use it , has a blade length that suits your natural stroke, & a tooth pitch & profile that suits the task you are using it for. That's why some of us find it necessary to own more than one saw. :;

Sharpening is always going to be an issue with any saw, good, bad or indifferent. If you are going to be a serious handsaw user & get the best out of them, you need to learn to at least touch them up between major re-sharpens. Any saw that is sharp & cuts straight can do very good work in the right hands. Japanese saws are good examples - they are capable of the most intricate work, and some folk swear by them, but in my hands they just don't cut it, so to speak......

Cheers,

[DSEL74]

Most saw makers of today have more than one person doing the filing, usually hand filing. Filing small teeth in a backsaw is tedious and tiring and requires a certain skill level to do it right and consistent. This is going to vary from saw maker to saw maker and even from day to day with each maker. You can conceivably buy three of the same model saw from the same saw maker and get three saws that cut differently.



I guess that is another point when is it a one man boutique saw maker (or two man as in two Lawyers) and which are small factory vs large production and therefore who provides more consistency? Or are they both equally variable? They still should be of a higher standard and within tighter tolerances than a generic saw.



What about quality of materials, fit & finish, customer service?
The ability to translate/interpret all those questions and get the saw right?

[DSEL74]

The law of diminishing returns applies to just about everything in this world, and saws are no exception. You can buy a very good saw like the Veritas models, that come sharp, cut straight, & are reasonably comfortable to hold, for a reasonable sum. Or, you can pay three times the price for a saw which might be 'better' in some respects, but almost certainly not 3 times better in any of these qualities. Factory saws are made to suit the 'average' person, and so there are compromises. Having a saw custom-made to your specs means you can reduce compromises, but unless you are someone like Claw Hama who uses saws all day every day, it's hard to know what tweaks to ask for that will make a long-term difference for you.

Have you got any opinions as to where that point is?? What is the peak?:roll:



My advice to anyone starting out in the handsaw world is to get their hands on as wide a variety of saws as possible and use them, to discover what suits them best. Unfortunately, it's not easy to get your hands on a lot of decent saws in one place, in order to make comparisons. In any case, your tastes will probably change over time, so it's probably not a good idea to splurge too much early-on.

This is a disadvantage here in Australia as overseas have larger tool days which get a wide representation of saw makers with tools for testing. here we get only LN representation. (This is based on the two I have been to. If someone knows a better place/event in Melb).

[pmcgee]

My advice to anyone starting out in the handsaw world is to get their hands on as wide a variety of saws as possible and use them, to discover what suits them best.

Amen to that.

A lot must depend on your projected usage both in degree and application ... and of course that will vary in response to the experience you have with your first attempts and purchases.

Sometimes in magazines or videos I see people taking several steps to setup for a particular cut with a tablesaw or router and I think "you could do that by hand in a few minutes" ... it looks like I'm getting old-man syndrome. (No offense to the actual old-men) :q

I think you need some basis for comparison ... either a 'gold standard' ... maybe a saw of a friend or at a demo day or show ... or even a 'copper' or 'aluminium' standard by getting a hardware store hard-point saw. I got some Irwins very cheap that are a very sophisticated saw - at least as far as the tooth geometry which is kinda japanese-style but cutting on the push stroke. They were probably 70%-80% at least of the best handsaw I have (crosscut) since then.

I also think there are two relevant aspects ... the cutting/function and the feel/usage. Once you've put up with an ugly plastic handle for a while, you'll be better placed to judge a handle better suited to actual use by humans. And some will be perfectly happy with the plastic one.

Regarding the function ... how obsessed are you? Some people obviously get along with only one or a few modern saws and don't want for anything else. Some people will get one or two premium modern saws and be entirely happy with that. Personally I love the vintage saws - partly for the history embedded in them - but also because I can own A LOT of them :U - and they can still be used.

I'm speaking about handsaws - but it would apply somewhat the same for the smaller sizes - if you want to do a lot with handsaws then you will appreciate a good range of options. A 5pt or 6pt saw can be disappointly slow to (rip)cut large or hard stock when you have faster options. eg Johnredl has a 2pt ripsaw ... Claw has a 2pt xcut. A 12pt rip or xcut handsaw can leave a very smooth cut.

So the question is how to know what you will like, before you know what you will like? :)

Personally I like to play around with inexpensive stuff, and later pay more when I know more. Other people would still do well I'm sure getting top notch stuff and selling it on still at a good price if they decide on something else.
Just for me, that isn't an option because NOTHING LEAVES HERE. NOTHING!!
(Now - that's not true. We talked about this.)
[Humph - you talked. I only listened.]
(About time, I'd say.)
[Don't start on that again.]

I'm sorry, I have to sign off now.
Paul

[IanW]

[QUOTE=DSEL74;1667801]Have you got any opinions as to where that point is?? What is the peak?:roll: QUOTE]

Of course I have an opinion, but it is only relevant to my own situation. The more you learn about anything, the more you appreciate small differences, so as you go along on this journey, you become more aware of the 'finer points'. This will constantly re-set your sensitivity to what goes into a truly excellent tool (for you!) vs an also-ran.

Paul's suggestion to play with older saws is good advice, I reckon. You can fool around with an old clunker and see what happens when you try to sharpen it, & experiment with set & rake and fleam and all those things that matter to how a saw cuts. If you stuff up a $10 saw, it's not going to matter much, & you can just keep trying til you get things under some sort of control. The inescapable fact is, you will never get much experience just discussing & thinking about saws - ya gotta use 'em.

Buying one really 'good' tool as a "gold standard", is often recommended, and it has its merits - if you decide in future that you like something else better, you should be able to unload it for a reasonable proportion of your outlay. But I was never in the position to do that, so I took the longer, but more fun course, perhaps, of working my way through old tools, and eventually making my own. Now that really steepens the learning curve! :U

Cheers,