Getting Material to Difficult Block

[Flyboy]

We've got a block of land we'll be building on soon, however getting building material to the block will be a major issue. There are 2 ways to access the site :

* By a firetrail which is about 1.5km long and 4WD only

* By barge, but there may be problems getting close enough to the site to unload.

Most people who have built in this area have used barges, but from all the research I've done this appears to be expensive, slow and depending on the tide, you might only have a window of 2-3 hrs to get the material in.

As an alternative, I've been thinking of using either a 4WD truck with a hiab or 4WD forklift down the firetrail.

Would love to hear from anyone who has any other ideas or has had similar problems.

Also, if this idea is realistic, the next question is what's the best way to get wet concrete down to the site and poured into the footings, using the 4WD truck/forklift. Apparently the last place built used 500 bags of pre-mixed concrete, all mixed by hand, so we are really keen to avoid doing this.

Cheers

[Gumby]

Ay carumba ! Where are you building ??? That sounds like it's a place nobody else goes to.............it's not Redfern is it ? :eek:

[bitingmidge]

I'd say that's a reasonable window for tides... I haven't ever seen a truck hang around a building site for longer than it had to!

But really, you call yourself flyboy and ask a question like that???

Cheers,

P
:D :D :D :D

[Flyboy]

Yeah, I'd thought about the helicopter option, even got a phone no. But every time I go to get a quote my hand shakes too much to dial the number, when I think about how big it's going to be.

And no, it's not Redfern. You've got a much better chance of coming back alive from this place .... even with the brown snakes.

Cheers

P.S. Anyone know anything about Manitou All Terrain Forklifts?

[Harry72]

Why even use a concrete foundation based house in this situation, floating on pylon's maybe a cheaper option. There are 4x4 pile driver rigs around that'll get there, the price would depend on how far down the bedrock is.

[journeyman Mick]

The Manitou is a handy machine, used them on a few jobs. New Holland also make a similar machine. When you say 4wd fire trail, how bad is it? Trucks will get to a lot of places yuppy 4wds won't. I've had our 4wd rural fire appliance on very steep fire trails and in most cases the combination of good ground clearance and lots of traction from the 1500 litres of water over the back wheels is enough and we rarely put it in 4wd. Also had deliveries of concrete and timber to jobs that have been down pretty rough tracks and it wasn't a drama for the trucks. As long as there's no severe washaways and the trees are clear and the bends aren't too tight it shouldn't be a drama. I recently did some work on top of a mountain and it was low range 4wd for me to get up there. But there's several shipping containers and portable buildings up there that have been taken up by truck. Considering the trail is only 1.5kms your cheapest option might be to push a dozer over the trail (if that's allowed).

Mick

[womble]

like mick said, if its possible just get a better road pushed through, wouldnt take a dozer long to do at all...be cheaper than flying helicopters in! :eek:

[soundman]

I'm with mick.
You'd be surprised what ground you can get a truck over, or a car for that matter.
I would go with a grader.
You would just be doin' the civic minded thing to sort out the fire trail.
1.5k a decent grader should kill that in a couple of hours.

or if you are stingy you'd be surprised what you can sort out with a bobcat.
cheers

[bitingmidge]

I recently did some work on top of a mountain and it was low range 4wd for me to get up there. But there's several shipping containers and portable buildings up there that have been taken up by truck. Considering the trail is only 1.5kms your cheapest option might be to push a dozer over the trail (if that's allowed).

I always suck up to Mick! :o :o This was going to be my sensible answer later tonight but there you go!

Only thing is I wouldn't worry about it being allowed, if it's a fire trail it is there for access so you'll be doing someone a favour!

The barge situation isn't so tough either, I have worked on a few islands where logistics had to be carefully thought out but not a problem.

Cheers,

P

[journeyman Mick]

I always suck up to Mick! :o :o This was going to be my sensible answer later tonight but there you go!

Aaaw shucks Midge, that's downright embarrassing :o

Mick (whose head has swollen so much now he can't get out the door)

[Flyboy]

Thanks for the replies.

The trail is already reasonably well graded. Spoke to the RFS and they said they get their 12 tonne fire truck down there no worries. The problem is the local council won't give you a permit to use the trail unless you're using a 4WD. To get the key to open the gate you have to pay a $1100 bond. I could 'massage' the rules but it's not worth the risk of losing the money and future use of the trail.

Will ask the engineer about pylons but I suspect this won't be an option as the block is Acid Sulfate Soil.

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER- 1px inset; BORDER- 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by bitingmidge
I always suck up to Mick! :o :o This was going to be my sensible answer later tonight but there you go!
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

My answers usually get less sensible the later it is, especially on a Friday night. Cheershttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon7.gif

[aussiecolector]

A tandom drive truck is 4wd. Is your normal access by water?

[Gaza]

U could get the key and use a 4WD for the first time then nick down the shops and get the key cut, then when no one is looking open the gate and let your trucks in.

Maybe get truck drivers that are not pain in the butt or give them a case for the extra effort.

Or go and buy a small ex-govt small 4wd truck from the auctions or a jap inport place.

[Island Nomad]

Why not bring the barge in with a 4wd truck and a 4wd forklift on board.

That's what we do on the islands in Moreton Bay. Works a treat, you'll have a complete house unloaded in a couple of hours, with the materials where you really want them (much careful planning required here). The last thing you want to do is double handle anything.

Further with regard to the concrete, we get premix delivered in large craneable bags (1.5m/3) just mix 6:1 with cement, works pretty well. For your footings you'll have to use 2 concrete mixers (sometimes 3 depending on the size of the pour). What I have found is a crew of 5 or 6 is perfect - 1 screeding, 1 barrowing and 3 on the mixers (depending on site access of course). It sounds really difficult but frankly it isn't. You can pour 5m/3 in 3 hours without any trouble at all. If you are a little nervous about it do small pours first, to build confidence.

[journeyman Mick]

What Aussiecollector says is right, strictly speaking a tandem axle truck has got four wheel drive. They often have an extra stick for the "power splitter" which powers up the other axle, this is used when shifting really heavy loads or in boggy conditions. Also see if there are any haulage contractors in the area with a "front wheel assisted drive" (proper term) truck. Another option is a bobcat with a mixer attachment. Like Island nomad says, barge all the materials in, maybe use forks on the bobcat to unload, get bulk bags (jumbo fertiliser bags) of premix in and mix your own concrete. My mate's got a mixer for his bobcat and it's brilliant. He has a set of hydraulic scales on it so he can accurately batch. Scoops up the premix, throws in a bag of cement and the water and mixes it while he drives to where the concrete needs to be placed. A bobcat would be cheaper to buy/hire than an all terrain (manitou)

Mick

[Flyboy]

Thanks everyone, all excellent ideas.

Will have a chat to the builder and see which way he wants to go.

Normal access is by water and we're still looking at barges. 2-3 tonnes should be no problems, but there might be an issue with getting a bigger barge under a footbridge. Yep, on this job the fun never stops.:rolleyes:

Cheers

[ian]

Acid sulfate soil could be as much a problem with a slab as it might be with pylons.
You can often combat the potential corrosion by using the right sort of cement in the concrete. Talk to your engineer about whether you should be specifying Sulphate Resistant cement.
Personally I think pylons and suspended floor is preferable to slab on ground, especially if you're that close to the water.
As for access, if you plan out every step of the construction it should help you decide between barge or truck. With a barge you would want to be organised but you could also deliver an excavator on the barge and use it as a crane to unload the materials.
As for using an all terain forklift to travel down the fire trail, those things don't travel very quickly so it might take quite a while to tram everything in.

good luck with the project

Ian

[kiwigeo]

Yeah, I'd thought about the helicopter option, even got a phone no. But every time I go to get a quote my hand shakes too much to dial the number, when I think about how big it's going to be


P.S. Anyone know anything about Manitou All Terrain Forklifts?

Man I'd be demanding top dollar to jump in the pilots seat of a Chinook...even more with a load dangling off the hook. Rig boys hate the things..have a habit of dropping out of the sky and theyre hard to get out of in a hurry.

Alot of the paver companies in Adelaide seem to be towing Manitous around with their delivery trucks....saw one in operation at a buliding site across the road from my house and it seemed to move pallets around in the muck pretty well.

[Wildman]

If the ground is acidic or otherwise bad for concrete, there is an additive from Cementaid called Caltite which is designed for this very thing, as well as general waterproofing and salt protection. You simply add it to the aggitator with a relatively stiff mix of concrete (very little water, almost zero slump) and use superplasticisers to make it workable. It stinks of Ammonia but does a great job. I used it a few years ago when replacing a number of 8000 litre waste pits in a woollen mill that had very acidic residues that had completely destroyed the old pits. 10 years on and the surface of the concrete has barely pitted with near continuous contact. It doesnt look new but the steel is still completely protected.

re the transporting, you could try to pick up an old Rough Rider concrete dumper. 2 cylinder air cooled diesel with a 1 cubic metre hydraulic bucket on it with 4WD. No good to transport mixed concrete that far though as it would spill and separate, but it could be used to tow in pretty much anything.

BTW, concrete can be pumped horizontally over 2500m through a 125mm pipe with Line Pumps, however it would be hideously expensive and you would have to pay for approx 25m3 of concrete just to fill the pipe before it started coming out at the other end! You would also have trouble finding a company in Aus that could handle that kind of distance for a small job.

[Eastie]

A good tractor could do everything you need and more. If you're not too close to the smoke stacks see if theres a local ag machinery outlet nearby and see if they would do a short term hire arrangement on a tractor + attachments for between 1-12 months.