Opinions sought on taiwanese Table Saws

[bfilmer]

Hi all,
Can anyone provide firsthand comment or infact any guidance at all on the 10" and 12" TS from Timbecon and Carbatec.
The 10" 3hp mj2325 $899
The 12" Bevel KS12-K 2HP is essentially the same saw as at Carbatec both listed at $1099.
I am looking for information on fit and finnish, did everything line up and fit together? Was it flat?
Fence quality and accuracy?
General blade and miter slot alignment?
And Opinions on whether the 2HP is sufficient to drive a 12" through thicker stock.
Thanks in advance.
Brad

[derekcohen]

Brad

I have the 12" KS12-K 2HP tablesaw. Bought it about 4 years ago together with the matching sliding attachment. I didn't really care for the 12" combination blade that came with it (I do use it occasionally) and have basically used a 10" 80 tooth Triple Chip blade for everything, from ripping to crosscutting, solid Jarrah, Karri, Oak, Pine, MDF and plywood.

At the time I purchased it there was not much else to choose from. The Delta was not on the market, and Jet was too expensive. The new price for my set up is now about $1500. I think it is an adequate and reliable tablesaw, perhaps not quite as well finished as the Delta or Jet.

The fence is very solid and easy to set up. It permits the cutting of full 8 x 4 sheets. It lacks a fine adjustment mechanism (you have to tap the fence). The table is flat, although I have not been happy with the cast iron wing (grid) since it dips very slightly in the centre (about .25mm, not enough to make any difference, but it does affect the overall perception of the machining quality in my eyes). The sliding table is excellent (I particularly like the fact that I can unbolt it and store it separately from the sawtable, since my workshop is in my garage and the sawtable needs to be backed up against a far wall. I have the saw table on wheels. Since the sliding table bolts directly to the table and does not primarily rest on the floor, the settings are not affected). The 2 hp motor is powerful enough for ripping 4" Jarrah, but you do need to feed slowly (I guess that this is expected with the blade I use, which is specifically made for crosscutting). It is a fairly quiet in operation.

I have built a router table (see: http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=4027331&a=30246831 ) onto one end, and I am very happy with this combination.

Regards from Perth

Derek

A few additions, bearing in mind the comments below:

With regard the fence. Mine works well and is accurate, BUT I did spend some time tuning it up when I got it. It was a few weeks before I was satisfied. It is the same as the current Carba-Tec (I have lined mine with Melamine, if you are looking at the pictures in the link below).

The lift mechanism works well, BUT the handle is a right pain in the ass since it has a tendency to loosen itself. In other words, I can still raise/lower the blade after tightening the twist-lock. In practice I have not noted any movement of the blade (up or down), but I will have to do some (more) work here (another washer). I have not had any trouble with the blade angle mechanism, which is smooth (but then gets much less use).

I also built my own minimum clearance centres for the blade out of melamine-veneered MDF - the thin aluminium centres than come with the sawtable were reasonably flat.

I do not have (and never have had) a problem with vibration or noise. My sawtable rests on the matching metal base (enclosed with plywood for dust control), which rests on a wooden base with locking castor wheels. I did build an extra on-off switch since I found the original one too small (this is the case with ALL tablesaws), utilising the Triton one. In fact I added a second one for the router table (see the pictures).

Bottom line: would I buy this machine again?! Answer - NO. I would, as suggested below, spend a little more and buy a Delta. However, for its price (I am including the sliding table in this equation), it is a good, accurate and reliable saw. It is just that I have champagne taste and beer pockets!

As before, regards

Derek

[This message has been edited by derekcohen (edited 19 October 2002).]

[This message has been edited by derekcohen (edited 19 October 2002).]

[DarrylF]

I've had the 12" 2hp version under the Workcraft brand for around 18 months now. They all seem to come out of the same factory.

Mine came with the two BBQ grill wings - completely useless, and like Derek I found mine bowed in the centre. Had to scrape & sand off some of the thick paint between the grill & the top to align them first up. The height adjustment wheel mechanism had to be taken apart & re-engineered, but still sticks & has too much play. The blade guard & splitter is un-usable - that got ditched after a week. The belt guard rubs on the motor pulley and after much frustration I dumped that too.

The vibration is much worse than I want to put up with. Tried changing to a couple different belts - slightly better.

The fence system on mine (there are a few varieties) was completely useless. Wouldn't stay straight if it was welded in place. Best thing I did was ditch that and pay $750 for a Biesemeyer commercial fence system - absolutely brilliant.

I have a few blades, but I generally use a CMT 80T blade - very nice for most things. With a rip blade on it will handle most things I want to hack up - certainly 2" without a problem.

One of the more annoying features is the warped top - very noticable and constantly a pain, mostly because I can't fix that. There's a difference of probably 1mm from high to low, but it's warped in an odd way, kinda dips towards the centre & the front right corner.

I built a solid cabinet base with cam operated wheels and dust extraction built in - definite improvement. I closed in the back with 3mm MDF and extract with a 1hp DC through the bottom. Made zero clearance inserts out of MDF and that helps too.

When I put on the Biesemeyer fence system I built a table on the right, smaller one on the left & a 300mm deep outfeed section. That also helped a lot.

I paid $1099 for the saw, $750 for the fence system, couple hundred for the base & table materials and a lot of time & messing around setting it up. Probably cost me about $2,100 all up. Right now it works, but I'm now to the point after 18 months where I really want better quality & accuracy.

For the money I've spent on this thing, I wish I had gone out & spent $3,000 on a cabinet saw that I won't want to replace and that wouldn't constantly annoy me. I'm planning on splashing out on a Jet or Delta cabinet saw in the not too distant future. Wanna buy this one? http://ubb.ubeaut.com.au/ubb/smile.gif

FWIW, save up the extra $'s (or hit the credit card) and get yourself a decent cabinet saw from a major brand - Jet or Delta for my money. At least the chances of you wanting to replace it should be dramatically reduced.

[Robert WA]

Similar experience here, except I picked up my saw from a disgruntled first owner. 12 inch Carba-tec with a multi purpose blade.
The blade was 2.5 mm out of line over the depth of the table, the splitter/guard was useless, both wings were slightly bowed and the belt hit the guard at full height.
I corrected the worst of the flaws and now have a reasonable saw.
The fence was way out. Its problem was that it had a degree of flex when moved and the rear lock grabbed before the front one. That prevented it from straightening itself when being locked. I modified the front lock slightly by reshaping the cam that operates it so that it gripped first. I then reset the fence to square and the thing works fine. I can see it straighten out as I operate the lever and before the back lock grips to make it rigid.

[DarrylF]

Further thoughts on this one:

You can buy a decent quality contractor style saw with a name brand from Jet or Delta - and for not much more than the various no-name brands:
Jet 10" with cast wings & reasonable fence - $1,354 - http://www.gregmach.com/product_catalogue/saws/tablesaws/jet_jwts10lfr.htm
or a Jet 10" 2hp cabinet saw - fence capacity is a little less than I want, but may suit you - $1,858 - http://www.gregmach.com/product_catalogue/saws/tablesaws/jet_jwcs10lfr.htm
But the one I want is the Jet 10" 3hp cabinet saw with the XActa fence - $2-3,000 range (no exact price on their site) - http://www.gregmach.com/product_catalogue/saws/tablesaws/jet_jtas10x.htm

The big differences with the 3hp cabinet saws are the enclosed stand, built in (efficient) dust collection, triple belt drive, and the quality of the tops and fences. There are also mechanical differences, and these units are substantially heavier (meaning less vibration).

I'm kinda contemplating keeping my Biesemeyer fence and buying the $1,858 version. Not quite time for me to splash out, so I haven't gone shopping for prices & exact setup. I'm also going to look more closely at Delta when the time comes.

Personally I wouldn't worry much about 10" vs 12" - it's the difference between ripping 79mm and 100mm, and nothing in this range is really built to get to those capacities IMHO. It's extremely rare for my blade to be raised above 2".

[John Saxton]

Onya Stoppers.I could not agree more.

Every tool whether Machine or hand must remain circumspect and as such require close inspection before use.

Many a story is out there of folk using untried tools "first-up" without taking the time to satisfy themselves of the quality/practicality of the said tool.

My 2c worth.
Cheers http://ubb.ubeaut.com.au/ubb/smile.gif

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Johnno

[Robert WA]

I would lay odds that most retailers assert that everything is adjusted just right when the tool leaves the showroom.
Funny how the ride home in the boot of the car or on the back of a truck can throw it all out of whack.

[RETIRED]

One must remember that it is put together by salesmen(persons) who probably have never seen a machine in operation.

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Ian () Robertson
"We do good turns every day"

[Rod Smith]

G'day
I've got a leda 12" 2 hp with small sliding table purchased about 4 years ago. Similar experiences to above, plenty of tuning required initially. The only thing I couldn't fix was that the back of the blade moves away from the fence by about 1 mm from fully up to fully down. Not a major problem, but I do make sure I have adequate clearance when cutting thicker stock and the blade is fully up (back of blade closer to fence). The fence is pretty good, though when I first set it up I noticed it flared out at both ends, idiots had not cut out the section where the cast ends sit completely, filed off the excess then ok.
Seems enough power, I occassionally rip 4" jarrah and pine. Though I have never used a more powerful saw to compare. Sliding table works pretty well, set to 90 deg and never gets changed.
Not much vibration, I did change the belt, probably should change the pulleys.
All in all it was ok for the price. As always though, buy the best you can afford and cry once.
cheers
Rod

[bfilmer]

Wow Guys, Thanks for the feedback.
Extra special thanks to Derek and Darryl for your comprehensive responses.
Nice router table extension Derek.

It has confirmed my thoughts about market for low end table saws, it is just hard to measure up without first hand experience whether a tablesaw from "Name Brand X" is really $1000+ better than a no name brand.
I think that a decent fence and well finished surface count for a lot.
The savings will have to continue and I will just have to resign myself to the "Long long term" rather than just the "long term".
I will check out those links for gregmach, it is not one I have seen before cheers.
The point about setting up is very true and the level of success I think will vary greatly on the starting point, quality wise. It is very difficult to tune out 1mm dip in a cast iron top.

Thanks to all who replied your knowledge and wisdom is greatly appreciated.
bradf.

[DarrylF]

No worries Brad - though I don't know about 'knowledge and wisdom', more like bitter experience in my case http://ubb.ubeaut.com.au/ubb/smile.gif

I agree on the points about tuning - even the best equipment requires proper setup and tuning to work OK. I guess the major difference between quality and cr*p equipment is that you CAN tune the quality gear so that everything is close enough to perfect.

Like my recent experience with thicknessers - bought the Ryobi and just could not get it tuned right, took it back and got the Dewalt and after half an hour it was as close to perfect as I have a right to expect in that range. Double the price, but worth it in my book anyway.

Keep in mind that a contractors saw for $1,354 from Jet or similar from Dewalt, plus some extra work on setup (extension tables, base etc) might well be all you need, and will at least give you decent quality. You might just be able to pick one up used if you're lucky & quick too (they sell fast). Just make sure you take a straight edge to check out a used machine - like you say, you can't fix a warped top.

Good luck.

[soundman]

My last saw was the little 10 " delta afectionately known as the screamer because of its 2 hp brush motor. it took me a day to assemble & get straight then another half a day about a month later, it stayed straight until I sold it.
I replaced it some months ago now with the 3hp industrial from carbatec & am glad I spent the $3000 odd.
It was a big step in price but a bigger step in quality, stability, & power.
I think a better buy than the unisaw at a similar price.
I was expecting to spend time tuning it but she was aligned pretty well spot on out of the crate.

[bfilmer]

Given we are now considering quality, can anyone explain the relative advantages and disadvantages of Left Tilt as opposed to Right Tilt Table saws?
Is one more desireable, safer, versatile?

cheers
bradf

[DarrylF]

Brad,

I think basically the idea with a left tilt is that you can do a bevel cut (like cut a 45) without the workpiece being trapped under the angle of the saw cut (and hence likely kickback). Of course, if you can only see yourself cutting a narrow strip at 45deg then you can do that on the left side of the blade on a right tilt saw.

Personally my blade never leaves vertical anyway - I feel safer using a router table to cut a bevel.

[cliff cook]

G`day Brad
I got myself a Jet 10" contractors tablesaw in march 02 and have been runing 2nd hand Jarrah and Karri from 4x2 to 8x8 through it ever since.The thing has never missed a beat and it`s as accurate today as the day i set it up.
It came in 4 boxes and a million bits but it has VERY good manuals. I took my time and reread and checked everthing twice and was still cutting inside 6 hours.This is the best investment i`ve made(apart from the lathe that is)and my advice is to save the pennys and get somthing decent,
cooky