A "make Lemonade" moment (I bought a lemon)

[Michael G]

Having long admired the 3D tasters that some members have I lashed out and bought one on German Ebay. However, when it arrived it became apparent that I'd bought a lemon. The seller even managed to slug me extra for the paypal fees. Sadly I'd already left feedback, so there is no redress for me. However, I'm pretty sure that he has no father!

The ad looked alright - even said comes with original packaging (must have been looked after right?). This is what the packaging looked like after it had been posted -
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The foam tray had been slid in and then just taped in place. The actual item looked like this -
276332
Not too bad, although the grubscrews which should have been there had been replaced with SHCS. This was visible in the ad, so I was expecting to have to replace these. What was not shown was the damage to the bottom of the unit.
276333
Someone had gone in with a centre punch to unscrew the plug and the lip for the rubber boot (missing) had also been damaged. As you can see from the second photo, the dial was reading something way off, so something was amiss. At this stage I was thinking that I'd blown my money. The next thought was along the lines of "Well, if it's knackered, I may as well see how one works". (Or in other words, "lemonade anyone?")

The unit has 3 distinct parts and is surprisingly uncomplicated. The spindle should be held on to a small spigot on the top of the unit with 4 grubscrews and a SHCS. The grubscrews adjust the radial position of the spindle with respect to the measuring probe. By backing them off and then undoing the SHCS in the top of the spindle, the spindle can be removed. Just think - if a guy wanted to gain a little bit more headroom he could take the spindle off and shorten it easily. (or even make up an ISO30 spindle and mount it direct).
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The next part I removed was the clock part. There are 4 grub screws around the perimeter of the dial. Back those off and the clock will just slide out. If you look carefully at the back of the clock there is a little steel pin. This fits into a slot in the body. When a part inside moves, the pin is moved and so the dial moves (I've still to see whether there is a part missing here, but the principle works). I also took the opportunity to see how the crystal attaches. There is a spring clip that runs around the perimeter with a notch. Slip in a small screwdriver or pointed object and the circlip will come out. The crystal is plastic, 1.15mm thick. It backs onto an O ring. Everything on this unit was very oily - I don't know whether this was deliberate or has just happened over the years.
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Last was the internals. Unscrewing the plug at the bottom, the spindle that the probe screws into came out. Notice the ball on top. This fits into the black part (next picture) which has a cone in it. If the probe is pushed up, the black bit moves up. If the probe is pushed to one side, because of the cone, the black part will also move up. This movement of course is what moves the pin and hence the dial. Pushing the black part down is a spring. The black part is a close fit in the Haimer body. In this one it was liberally oiled which I'm not sure it should have been (it was very slow to move - perhaps it should be dry lubed)
276338 276339 276340
The spring seems to be the main problem though -
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It seems to be comparably weak and certainly with the shape it is in, does not look like a high precision German spring. I suspect that the seller decided to take it apart for some reason, could not get it working and so put it back together with any old parts, put it in the box from the replacement and sold it to a passing sucker.

However, having looked inside I think it can be fixed. I'm going to see if I can get some information from Haimer (and perhaps the right spring) and who knows - lemon meringue pie?

Michael

[Stustoys]

Hi Michael,
Bugger. But thanks for the look inside.
I hope you are at least going to put him through the paypal wringer?
At least Bob will be happy :)

Stuart

[RayG]

Hi Michael,

It looks repairable, at first sight at least... and it's a quality brand so parts and information should be available.

The lemonade could end up being quite TASTY... ( sorry! )

Regards
Ray

[Anorak Bob]

Happy that I've now seen inside a Taster. Unhappy that it has to be as a result of Michael's misfortune.

Frans Haimer was awarded patent number 5,365,673 back in 1994 for the device. A search will provide a sectional drawing showing the spring and its location along with a verbose description of the device's workings. Michael's documented dissection has provided clarity. Thank you Michael.

Christian Groves has a Taster. I have an idea he was visiting Germany after a stint in Norway. He may have purchased his in Germany. He may be in a position to help.

BT

[Michael G]

I must admit that one of the prime motivations for disassembly was because I was interested as to how they worked and thought that others may be too.
The spring seems to be the main thing. If there is a Taster owner or two out there with steady hands I would be interested to see if they can get a spring rate for me. If you position the Taster over a set of digital scales and push down so that the dial shows 1 mm vertical deflection, the scale should show a reading that I can compare my spring to. The spring seems critical to correct operation of the unit. Too weak and there is no restoring force; too strong and readings will be influenced by the restoring force.

Michael

[Anorak Bob]

I must admit that one of the prime motivations for disassembly was because I was interested as to how they worked and thought that others may be too.
The spring seems to be the main thing. If there is a Taster owner or two out there with steady hands I would be interested to see if they can get a spring rate for me. If you position the Taster over a set of digital scales and push down so that the dial shows 1 mm vertical deflection, the scale should show a reading that I can compare my spring to. The spring seems critical to correct operation of the unit. Too weak and there is no restoring force; too strong and readings will be influenced by the restoring force.

Michael


A lack of steadiness will be overcome by mounting the Taster in the mill's spindle. The accuracy of the scales might be questionable. My Correx force gauge only measures from 0 to 15 grams. The analogue Soehnle kitchen scales will fit under the stylus on the mill so if you can wait till this evening I should be able to provide a reading. Fiddling around with the taster and the scales while I'm eating my breakfast suggests a force of about 200 grams.


BT

edit - I just slipped up to the shed. 220 grams. I'll post some snapshots later.

It's now later. More like 215 than 220. Winding the stylus up to a smudge over 2mm results in a increase of force on the spring.

Just one question Michael, the Taster did come with a stylus?

[CGroves]

Hello Michael and Bob,

I'm back from Norway. I didn't go to Germany this time. I got my Taster from Haimer in Germany. My mother in-law set up an account with them. They probably didn't have too many 76 grandmothers on their books :-). In my first contact with them they saw that I was from Australia and passed me to the local distributor but once I clarified that I was physically in Germany (I was at the time) they were good to deal with. They should be able to help you with parts.

I measured my 3D Taster NG on a set of digital scales holding the taster in the mill. I moved it until 1mm was showing and the digital scale showed between 248 and 251 grams. So I guess it's rated for 250gm.

Bob: Just following up on your email regarding adjusting the bevel when it doesn't return to zero. I tested my Taster on a couple of gauge blocks and the reading was accurate enough for me. i.e. on a 1.06mm gauge block the DRO on the mill read between 1.0592 and 1.0617.

Christian

[Anorak Bob]

Hello Michael and Bob,

I'm back from Norway. I didn't go to Germany this time. I got my Taster from Haimer in Germany. My mother in-law set up an account with them. They probably didn't have too many 76 grandmothers on their books :-). In my first contact with them they saw that I was from Australia and passed me to the local distributor but once I clarified that I was physically in Germany (I was at the time) they were good to deal with. They should be able to help you with parts.

I measured my 3D Taster NG on a set of digital scales holding the taster in the mill. I moved it until 1mm was showing and the digital scale showed between 248 and 251 grams. So I guess it's rated for 250gm.

Bob: Just following up on your email regarding adjusting the bevel when it doesn't return to zero. I tested my Taster on a couple of gauge blocks and the reading was accurate enough for me. i.e. on a 1.06mm gauge block the DRO on the mill read between 1.0592 and 1.0617.

Christian

Bloody Swiss scales.:no: I'll have my wife ramp up the butter when she makes her next cake.

[Michael G]

German efficiency - after sending off an email last night I had the local agent phone today. He explained that all repairs are done in Germany and a taster should be treated as a disposable device as by the time the parts, labour and transport costs are added in it is cheaper to buy a new one for $500 to $600.
Parts are not held in Australia except for probes, and again they are expensive. He will look for repair instructions for me though. Although the spring is apparently quite light, the oil should not be as thick as it is. Sewing machine oil has been suggested.
Thanks to Christian and Bob for the spring information. With that I should be able to see if I have the right spring and replace it if needs be.

Michael

On edit. It did not come with a stylus but they are not hard to get on Ebay. The one I have was sent from Spain.

[Anorak Bob]

German efficiency - after sending off an email last night I had the local agent phone today. He explained that all repairs are done in Germany and a taster should be treated as a disposable device as by the time the parts, labour and transport costs are added in it is cheaper to buy a new one for $500 to $600.
Parts are not held in Australia except for probes, and again they are expensive. He will look for repair instructions for me though. Although the spring is apparently quite light, the oil should not be as thick as it is. Sewing machine oil has been suggested.
Thanks to Christian and Bob for the spring information. With that I should be able to see if I have the right spring and replace it if needs be.

Michael

On edit. It did not come with a stylus but they are not hard to get on Ebay. The one I have was sent from Spain.

That advice is familiar. When I asked Michael Deckel GMBH about removing the Centricator's arbor the suggestion was made to replace the entire device. :o

[.RC.]

On edit. It did not come with a stylus but they are not hard to get on Ebay. The one I have was sent from Spain.

heh heh.. I thought that seller in spain only had one when I got mine, but he must have a heap..

Although now you have me worried my taster currently in transit may be damaged as it never came with a probe either.... It does have the rubber boot though... :)

[Michael G]

I cleaned out the thick oil from the body and from the outside of the black bit with some acetone and tried it, but it was too dry. Used a little sewing machine oil (2x a dot on the end of my finger) and it slides very smoothly and only requires a light touch to move. Tomorrow I'll try to find time to put it in the mill and check the spring. With the lighter oil it feels much better though so the spring may be alright although abused.
I've also filed out the punch marks on the plug and replaced the SHCS that were positioning the spindle with proper M4x15 grub screws. It looks much more like it's relations now.
Only remaining issue preventing its use is the position of the hands on the dial. If I push on the plunger I have to move it in around 3mm before the hands go approximately to the zero position. So - more questions for the Taster owners

Where do the hands point when the indicator is at rest - are they at zero or at -1 or...?
My thought is that there might be a spacer missing from the ball joint that jacks the probe up around 3mm. If you are feeling brave, could one of you have a peek under the rubber boot and see if the probe ball sits directly on the plug surface or whether there is a plastic washer/ grommet/ seat in there that raises the probe up a little? (as not shown in the photo)

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Thanks, Michael

[Michael G]

heh heh.. I thought that seller in Spain only had one when I got mine, but he must have a heap..

There is a Haimer factory in Spain. Makes me wonder whether the probes are officially on the market or "just happened to end up on Ebay"


Although now you have me worried my taster currently in transit may be damaged as it never came with a probe either...

Maybe it is; maybe it isn't - but at least you know how to disassemble it!

Michael

[Ueee]

Hi Michael,
Did you want a bottle of the synthetic watch oil? I still have a couple spare.
Shame about the taster, i never leave feedback on ebay until i have the item.....

Cheers,
Ew

[Anorak Bob]

Where do the hands point when the indicator is at rest - are they at zero or at -1 or...?


Thanks, Michael

Like this Michael


http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachments/f65/195329d1327060101-tasty-taster-taster-001-large-.jpg

[CGroves]

G'Day Michael,

As Bob shows the dial rests at 0. Screwing in the tip doesn't tension the mechanism. There's no play even without the tip. There must be something else in the mechanism to tension it.

I've attached two pictures, one with the tip removed and the other with the boot and tip removed. Don't know if they help.

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Christian

[Michael G]

Thanks guys. It was the red hand that I was most interested in but Bob's photo shows it at -2, so that is fine. Currently the red hand is sitting above that and needs to come down.
I've doctored Christian's photo here. My thought is to get the red hand sitting where it should there should be a washer/ spacer/ socket between the ball on the end of the probe shaft and the (on this photo) the black plug that the boot attaches to. (On Bob's unit and mine this plug is a gold-ish colour.
I've put an arrow in blue pointing at the place where I think it should be visible. Certainly from the photo the position of the probe shaft it looks like something should be there.
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Currently in mine there is nothing and looking at the mechanism that is about the only place that a spacer could be added for adjusting the hand position. I'm also suspicious that it is an aluminium on aluminium joint. Yes, they are anodised but if that wore off it would soon pick up. If the home position for the red hand is -2, then it would only need to be around 1 to 1.5mm thick.
The meringue is in sight!

Michael

[CGroves]

Hello Michael,

I checked but couldn't see anything. I'd have to remove the plug to see and I don't really feel like starting a thread "How I destroyed my Haimer by opening it" :-).

The probe shaft does seat into the back of the plug so it appears to limit how much the shaft comes out. I noticed in the second of your original photos the your gold coloured plug doesn't seem to be seated all the way into the body. I guess that has been fixed?

Christian

[Stustoys]

Hi Michael,
Bit of a long shot but, the grub screw in the spindle doesnt adjust the ball bearing by any chance does it?
I only say this because it would seem there needs to be an external way to adjust these to 0(-2 in this case). Because if it isn't set on -2 then 0 wouldn't be 0. Am I making sense? That would seem to leave either the grub screw or the how far in the bottom plug was. Of course I could be full of it.

As I understand it anodised aluminium is tough stuff you'll be a long time wearing through it given the pressures involved.

Stuart

[Michael G]

The probe shaft does seat into the back of the plug so it appears to limit how much the shaft comes out. I noticed in the second of your original photos the your gold coloured plug doesn't seem to be seated all the way into the body. I guess that has been fixed?


Yes, the previous repairer had not screwed it home. I have tightened it up to do the spring test. I might have to make a little spanner thing as I suspect I will be taking it apart a couple more times until I get the spacer/ washer right. The more I think of it the more certain I'm becoming that there is something there as there is no adjustment otherwise. I can imagine a station in the assembly sequence where the stack of parts is measured and one of several spacers is put in to bring things to spec.

Stuart, the grub screw is to attach the probe. I reckon that if it was used for adjustment you could accidentally move things when changing the tip and the blurb says that no adjustment is needed when changing tips. Anodised Al can be tough if done properly but I don't know whether an instrument designer would rely on it for a critical function (and low friction is critical in these things).

This weekend I hope to make up a dummy washer, measure and then make up a "proper" one with the correct height.

Michael

(and if you ever do take your Haimer apart, remember to take the clock out first before removing the plug)

[.RC.]

This is the one I purchased Universal Taster VON Haimer 3D Taster Fräse Fräsmaschine | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/141007756941)

As you can see the needle on it is not right up the top either, but the little hand also is not sitting right on the -2, as if the mechanism needs adjusting to bring the big hand back to the 12 o'clock position and the little hand should move back to dead on the -2 at the same time...

Otherwise we might be able to make one out of 2.. :D

[Michael G]

Bloody Swiss scales.:no: I'll have my wife ramp up the butter when she makes her next cake.

Sadly no Bob. I put my reassembled Universal over the scales tonight and got 220g. Possibly because Christian's NG version is shorter Haimer have to increase the spring force a little. It looks like that ratty looking spring is fit for purpose after all.

Michael

[Anorak Bob]

I circumcised the Haimer and discovered a couple of cosmetic differences. I dare say it all works the same as yours Michael. I have had another look at the patent documents and located a washer that facilitated the accurate spacing between the pivot points. How much the design at the patent stage differed from the built version I guess you will be best versed to answer. More here - Patent US5365673 - Multi-coordinate sensing gauge - Google Patents


(http://www.google.com/patents/US5365673)

[Stustoys]

I can imagine a station in the assembly sequence where the stack of parts is measured and one of several spacers is put in to bring things to spec.

Stuart, the grub screw is to attach the probe.
I wasnt believing you until I realised that the bezel rotates like any other dail indicator.:doh:so it doesnt have to be as close as I was thinking. 0.01 steps would be more than good enough.

I was thinking super locited at the factory. One screw two jobs... but it turns out I am full of it. :p

Stuart

[Anorak Bob]

Hello Michael and Bob,

I'm back from Norway. I didn't go to Germany this time. I got my Taster from Haimer in Germany. My mother in-law set up an account with them. They probably didn't have too many 76 grandmothers on their books :-). In my first contact with them they saw that I was from Australia and passed me to the local distributor but once I clarified that I was physically in Germany (I was at the time) they were good to deal with. They should be able to help you with parts.

I measured my 3D Taster NG on a set of digital scales holding the taster in the mill. I moved it until 1mm was showing and the digital scale showed between 248 and 251 grams. So I guess it's rated for 250gm.

Bob: Just following up on your email regarding adjusting the bevel when it doesn't return to zero. I tested my Taster on a couple of gauge blocks and the reading was accurate enough for me. i.e. on a 1.06mm gauge block the DRO on the mill read between 1.0592 and 1.0617.

Christian

I just slipped the Taster back into the 13's spindle to see if the thing actually indicated 2mm of travel with the dial turned clockwise 0.01mm to align zero with the needle ( both the needle and zero on the dial had been at 12 o'clock when I bought the Taster ). Raising the table 2mm resulted in a reading of 2mm on the Taster dial. Phew. My concern had been that the indicator was out of whack and not returning to zero ( 12 o'clock ).

I'm wondering that if when I've tapped the arbor out of the spindle, I've jarred the indicator gizzards out of alignment? I use a hide mallet , not a gympie hammer, but even a gentle tap from that might upset the applecart.

BT

[Michael G]

Trying to recreate Bob's work is difficult, but this is the base of my Haimer (with plug properly screwed down).
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To my eyes the ball seems to be sitting slightly higher in my photos than in Bob's.
The patent is interesting. I considered at one stage training to be a patent attorney, so while looking at that option that I discovered a few things about patents. One of them is that you try to make them as broad as possible to cut out others from the market. Another is that you try to write your patent so that it does not tell others exactly how to make your product (the theory is that someone in the field by looking at your patent could possibly work out how to make your widgit, so you throw a few red herrings their way). In the case of a Taster, the adjustment spacer may be where the patent application says it is, but then again may be elsewhere.
A spacer where the patent application says may be simpler, so I may try both locations.

Bob, the arbor should not have to be done up ultra tight for using the Taster - just enough to nip it up, so any thump with a hammer should only be light - not enough to throw things out I would have thought.

Stuart, I'm only guessing too. My guesses have a degree of desperation behind them though!

I may have to paint the plug black to make it look a little less dogs balls after seeing Bob's and Christian's indicators.

Michael

[Anorak Bob]

Trying to recreate Bob's work is difficult...

Michael


I cheated. I used a tripod.:q

You are correct MG. Finger tight would be sufficient.

BT

[Michael G]

I spent a few hours in the shed today and one of the things I finally made was the spacer. I say finally because it took about 12 tries before I got one that was exactly the right size. The spacer is a lozenge cross section 20mm OD, 18mm ID and made of acetal. The probe shaft needed to come up 1.42mm, which meant the thickness required was 0.45mm. I produced spacers with a variety of thicknesses either side of that but I had a lot of trouble getting spot on. I really do need to get the play out of the compound...
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Based on Bob's observation I thought I'd start by trying to put a spacer at the top of the black bit but the design is significantly different from the patent. The sketch below is a half section done in the shed to try and show what I mean. At the top of the black bit is a hole but there is nothing there to hold a spacer there and there would be a step in the measurement. Instead I made up a spacer to sit in the base of the plug. There is a sketch of that there too. (Sorry about the numbers. Bits of paper are not safe when I start figuring...)
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Now I just need to follow Bob's lead and make up an adaptor to hold it as putting it in an ER collet chuck adds around 60mm to the length.

Michael

[Michael G]

Today I got back into the shed after a long absence (2 weekends but even though...)
While away I was thinking about how to mount the Haimer and how the 40 taper mount that was was offered by the factory might work.
My taper turn adapter on the lathe is only graduated to 8 degrees but a 24/7 taper is 8 and a bit, so one of the things I also wanted to find out was whether it would stretch to the angle for the taper (err - yes).
The result was after making an adapter I was able to go from this
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It saves around 54mm
The adapter is quite simple and literally bolts in place where the 20mm spindle does - even using the same screws. Normally when trying out something new I set up to make two - that way the first one can be used for set ups and be binned at the end because of the numerous errors that it has had to sort out. As a 40 taper is a large beast, I made a 30 taper version as my first off (partly because I got a length of 50mm diameter material from Rob's mate Arthur for a very good price). The factory doesn't make a 30 but with a small cheat it can be done. This time Murphy worked against me and the only major blue happened on the 40 taper version where the drill went off line (filler piece, spot of weld, polish...). I set up the TTA using an existing taper but I'm not sure exactly how much contact I'm getting in the machine's taper socket. Blue is inconclusive. I have a few wipe marks (ie no blue) on the bottom 10 to 20mm of my taper after bluing the taper however the socket has a light film of blue, so??? It doesn't feel loose so it may be good. I haven't yet tried it for repeatability. (30 version pictured)

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(Note the red band is paint pen. I mark metric draw bars and holders red (M16) and imperial ones blue (5/8W) to make it easier to grab the right pairings)

Michael

[.RC.]

Have you tested it to see if it all works?

Mine is still yet to turn up from germany 33 days since it was posted.. DHL is pathetic..

[Michael G]

Richard, normally I find DHL pretty good. If their tracking information is saying that it may be worth contacting the local DHL office to give it a hurry up. If it's the seller saying that it has been posted it may be worth while asking him for a tracking number. 33 days does not sound right to me.

I've tried the taster in the collet chuck and had it in the mill using the adaptor. I haven't used it to indicate anything in anger yet. We new owners of Haimers may have to ask the established owners to start up a "things you can do with a 3D taster". I got an instruction sheet with mine but it only covered aligning the probe axis with the machine spindle.

Michael

[.RC.]

I have the tracking number... No update since the 4th July, It never made the update that says it has left the german parcel processing centre and ready for shipment to Australia..

I did some research and the tracking should go from saying

"The international shipment has been processed in the export parcel center"

Then the next tracking event should be

"IPZ-Ffm, Germany"

Mine never reached the IPZ event..

I contacted DHL post asking if it had left Germany and they replied with they will do nothing until the middle of August, then if no show they will launch an investigation.


But things to do with a 3D taster... I was thinking my main use will be not just setting up but measurement of things...

Say a narrow groove... With the taster move the spindle over one edge... Zero the DRO, move to the other edge... Instant measurement of the groove width.. Other measurements also easily attained using the three dimensions the device will give you..

[RayG]

Hi .RC. Similar story, I got a DHL package from Germany last week, it was shipped on the 8th and arrived on the 30th. I thought that 3 weeks plus seemed slow for what's supposed to be a premium courier service. The tracking number provided by the seller never worked whenever I tried it.

Back to the thread topic, congratulations Michael, nice recovery from a lemon, to something that's going to be a valuable addition to the workshop! :2tsup:

Regards
Ray

[variant22]

Hi .RC. Similar story, I got a DHL package from Germany last week, it was shipped on the 8th and arrived on the 30th. I thought that 3 weeks plus seemed slow for what's supposed to be a premium courier service. The tracking number provided by the seller never worked whenever I tried it.

Ray, 3 weeks is reasonable (pretty good actually) for when I order items from Germany. It is my understanding that DHL is essentially the same as our Aussie Post parcel service. It is owned by Deutsche Post and handles their international parcels.

Funnily enough, when I order from Germany the sellers usually pester quite a bit on the "has it arrived". I tell them not to worry and that I will let them know when it arrives. I think it must be a lot faster locally..

The thing DHL are excellent on is price (only in Germany however). A 30kg+ cylinder head shipped from Germany to my door for 85 Euros. Now Aussie Post could not deliver in Australia for that!

An on topic note; This thread is one of the best in a long time. I need to tweak my Haimer Taster. It at times jumps on the dial when zeroing. Instead of smoothly going from .01 to 0.02 it will not move as my DRO is incrementing then skip from 0.01 to 0.05 (as an example). I am not sure if my DRO is dicky or my Haimer!

[.RC.]

Mine arrived today.... will post picture in the tool thread...

[Anorak Bob]

This is RC's post about his adjustment discovery. A search down the track will show its presence in the Tool Gloat thread. Searching through 67 pages can be frustrating.

Secondly you can adjust the dial zero position by the 4 screws that hold the bezel in... I found those tiny set screws on mine were loose, that is why the needle position was not sticking straight up... Tightening them moves the needle all over the place so you tighten them to get them into what position you want...

Thanks again Richard.

[.RC.]

Interestingly mine is also out by 0.02mm...

If I move the probe till it is just touching the work... Then zero the DRO, move the probe until the dial says it has moved 2mm the DRO always says is has only moved 1.98mm.

It does not really matter as I just move the dial over 2 graduations then I know it is spot on...