My Search for the Perfect Sharpening System

[Colin62]

For a while I’ve been aware that my system for sharpening my turning chisels is neither fast nor efficient enough for any serious turning. I have been using diamond plates, and sharpening by hand, but it’s pretty slow and if you’re not careful you can end up messing the edge up by not keeping the bevels correct. I also means that I’m far too tempted to try get just another session out of the chisel before I sharpen it, meaning I’m using more sandpaper than I want, and also wasting wood with tear outs and poor finish.

Sorby Pro-Edge
I did some research and some reading and decided I like the Sorby Pro-Edge system – good jigs for repeatability, and the flexibility of many different grits available at a reasonable price. The downsides are that the belts are consumables and costs can mount, and that the joint on the belt seems to give some problems. I decided to go ahead and get one, and contacted the local Sorby agents, who told me that they don’t import the Pro-Edge, so I looked at importing one directly. The first three or four websites I tried don’t ship to South Africa, and coupled with the fact that shipping, duties and the hassle of owning something with no local support whatsoever was quite a risk, I decided to look at alternatives.

Tormek
I got some pricing on the Tormek system, and was again quite close to being ready to place an order (in spite of the high price – I just got a decent bonus and it was burning a hole in my pocket). I asked a few guys I know who have Tormeks and it seems that many people buy them, and stop using them after a while – the time taken to remove material is a factor, and there seems to be a bit of a learning curve on using the jig system which some never quite mastered or just find frustrating. Also it became apparent that the T3 was probably just the first step, and that the T7 was needed, and that is even more expensive.

Wolverine Jigs
A few posts I read indicated that there were a few people out there who far preferred the Wolverine Jigs from One-Way in Canada to the ones from Tormek. I know some people with similar (often home-made) jigs, and their Tormeks stand idle while they sharpen using Wolverine style jigs with Alox wheels in standard grinders. I did some pricing, and it was cheaper to import the jigs from the UK. Shipping from Canada and Germany (One-Way’s European base) is more expensive than the UK. I found a supplier and made enquiries.

Sorby Jigs
At this point I realised that the Sorby Jigs for use with regular grinders are a bit cheaper than the Wolverine ones, and that the local agents actually seem to import some of the range. So I thought I’d get a set of Sorby Jigs (from the very helpful UK supplier who I’d got prices on the Wolverine Jigs from). I asked Peter (the owner of The ToolPost) what his thoughts were, and he personally much prefers the Wolverine Jigs – very robust and dead easy to use.

So, in the end I got the Wolverine Jigs, imported from the UK. The hidden costs of importing were a little frustrating – I was expecting to have to pay some duty, but then having to pay the equivalent of $40 for an admin fee to the courier company (over and above the cost of the actual shipping) was a little more than I thought was reasonable. They arrived this morning, and do indeed appear to be very well made and simple to use once setup.

The Grinding Wheel
Of course the jigs are no use without a grinder. I have an old 4” grinder and started looking at wheels and grinders. I fairly quickly found very enthusiastic support for CBN wheels (Cubic Boron Nitride – a synthetic substance almost as hard as diamond, and especially developed for grinding high speed steel). The default supplier (for turners) seems to be D-way Tools in the US, and Dave is at least as friendly and helpful as Peter from the ToolPost. I’m going for the 8” 180 grit CBN wheel. One of the big advantages to the CBN wheel is that it doesn’t wear down and need dressing, and this also means a lot less dust and far fewer sparks.

The Bench Grinder
So I did some frustrating research into grinders. No-one seems to list how long the shaft is nor what the diameter of it is. So on Saturday morning it was into the car and off on a tour. Most hardware shops locally don’t bother with 8” grinders so after four or so, I hit the local specialist tools shop and after a little dithering bought a no-name brand Chinese 8” grinder with a decently long shaft to hold the wheel. The weekend was busy fetching kids from the airport and dropping them off at boarding school, so by the time I got a chance to play with the grinder it was Sunday evening. First problem was that while the threaded portion of the shaft (which I measured in the shop) was a standard 16mm, the actual shaft is 18mm. Not standard at all, and it meant that every time I change wheel, I’m looking at have a bush made. Then I powered it up (after removing the wheels). It made quite a lot of noise, and after five minutes was quite warm. It’s rated to run for 30 minutes, so I let it. And when I came back to see how it was doing, I saw all the smoke that powers such devices was escaping. So back to the drawing board. I’m currently waiting for feedback on the shaft dimensions of a Martlet and a Bosch, and which ever is the better deal assuming that the wheel will fit, will be my choice.

Apologies to anyone who thought this length of post should reach a definite conclusion, but unfortunately I’m still stuck without anything to sharpen on, even though I have spent a fair bit on the jigs. Yes, I know you can sharpen freehand, and you can make your own jigs. But my attempts to sharpen freehand are merely a waste of good (and some not so good) chisels, and I just don’t have the time or energy (mostly the energy) to fiddle with making my own jigs from scratch, and would rather spend some money now so that I can spend the time I do get in the workshop doing what I love and that is tuning.

I’ll give feedback one the final choice of grinder, and once I am able to get the CBN wheel, I’ll be sure to brag about that too, but for now, I think I’ve rambled on long enough.

[China]

If you are looking for a jig have a look at this Woodcut Tools Ltd > Tool Sharpening (http://www.shop.woodcut-tools.com/section.php?xSec=12)

very easy to set up and use about as simple as it gets.

[Paul39]

Take your Chinese grinder back to the seller and tell them the magic smoke escaped and you want your money back.

I have a no name Taiwanese 8 inch grinder I bought used which has worked daily for 5 years.

I have the Oneway Wolverine system for my chisels with a 120 grit Alox wheel on both sides. One side has the flat rest for scrapers and the other the holder for the bowl gouge jig.

I have a Tormek 7 which I bought used in a weak moment. It puts a razor sharp edge on everything. After sharpening a friends plane irons, some chisels, and a bowl gouge on which I sliced myself, it sits upstairs.

I sharpen my skews on a piece of sandpaper on the lathe bed or on a flat $15.00 Chinese diamond plate. One works as good as the other on high speed steel.

Starting from scratch, I would buy a medium priced 1400ish rpm 8 inch grinder with a CBN or diamond wheel. Set it up with the Tormek bar and jigs for a bowl gouge and the flat rest.

The spindle gouges can be sharpened by resting on the flat rest more or less free hand.

Do a search on this forum using , sharpening, Tormek, diamond wheel, CBN wheel, Sorby system, etc. There have been raging discussions about sharpening. The best thing is to join a mens shed and try the various methods yourself.

Not all of us like the same thing. There are many paths to the same place. If someone proclaims there is ONLY ONE PROPER WAY to sharpening, thank them for their instruction and run.

The object of sharpening is to remove material from rotating timber, preferably leaving a smooth surface. Long, involved sharpening rituals to make the perfect edge last about 1.5 seconds when crammed into a piece of rock hard timber turning about 1400 rpm.

EDIT: Just re-read your post. You will like the Wolverine system.

[blackwoods]

Tormek
I got some pricing on the Tormek system, and was again quite close to being ready to place an order (in spite of the high price – I just got a decent bonus and it was burning a hole in my pocket). I asked a few guys I know who have Tormeks and it seems that many people buy them, and stop using them after a while – the time taken to remove material is a factor, and there seems to be a bit of a learning curve on using the jig system which some never quite mastered or just find frustrating. Also it became apparent that the T3 was probably just the first step, and that the T7 was needed, and that is even more expensive.

I have the T7. Yes, it's expensive, but if you can get past that, it is a very good system. It's not fast, I agree, but I am in no hurry. A production turner would probably say it was too slow. The jigs are easy to use and one of the selling points IMO. The instruction info is laid on so thick Blind Freddy could follow it. Just take the time to go through the literature and the videos. For me, a mug turner that couldn't freehand to save myself, the T7 has given me the sharpest chisels I have ever had.

[Old Croc]

Colin, I am an intermittent turner, i.e. do some today and then none for 4 months, and even though Powderpost :2tsup:taught me to freehand sharpen, its a skill I loose doing all the other things I do. So, I have several 8 inch grinders, A&A, GMF, JET and a very old Tormek with a Supergrind wheel. The 8 inch ones have a mix of grey, blue, white and pink wheels on them. I have set up the bar from the Tormek on the 8 inch, using the Tormek jigs to do a quick rough out to shape, then finish on the Tormek. What I love most, is when I am turning, and the tool dulls, its a quick rub on the Tormek, exact repeatability of the grind, and I dont see all my expensive HSS or Glasser's metal sparks hitting the ground, as the Tormek only takes thousandths off the tool.
Well thats my $00.20 worth,
rgds,
Crocy
P.S. most of the detractors of the Tormek try to totally shap or reshape tools on them, and this is a very slow process, so they get pi-sed and blame the machine.

[Colin62]

Thanks for the replies.

China, the woodcut jig is one I didn't come across while looking,probably because most of the forums I looked through were based in the US or UK.

Paul, I am taking the smokeless grinder back as soon as I can get into town. The suppliers have offered to swap it for another one, but I don't think I trust that so I'll rather try a different brand, and hopefully will have a bit more luck with that. I haven't been able to find a 1400 rpm grinder at all, but apparently the CBN wheels work well enough on a 2850 rpm model.

Blackwoods and Old Croc - I decided against the Tormek mostly because I don't have the kind of money to take a chance on the system. I've heard from enough people who bought Tormek and either just don't use it or have sold it (at a loss). I may well have been perfectly happy with it, but it's just too much money to take that risk. I'm confident that I'll get repeatibility with the Wolverine jigs, and I have yet to see a post by someone who bought a CBN wheel and who was unhappy with his purchase.

On the cost side, with shipping, import duties and the bend-over-and-take-it-because-we've-got-your-parcel attitude of the courier companies, I'm probably in for about $700 or so anyway by the time I've got all the components together, so the route I'm going is not the cheapest solution.

Just to clarify - I'm not suggesting that I know more than anyone else out there, and I'm not in any way criticising the choices others have made nor the systems they are using - I'm just trying to find a system that works for me, in my particular circumstances. My reason for posting was to document the process I went through in case it may help others - who may well reach a different conclusion to what I did.

Cheers,

Colin

[RETIRED]

Have a look here Colin.


http://www.woodworkforums.com/f8/my-thoughts-grinders-long-post-147077/

[brendan stemp]

How sharp do you want your turning tools???

Turners have been producing great work long before the Torment (thanks Neil) was ever around and while I agree it will provide you with the sharpest of edges I still don't think most turners need tools as sharp as this very expensive rig gives you.

I have a Torment in my workshop as well as two diamond wheels a CBN and Al Ox. What do I use? The Al Ox!!

My recommendation: 8" 80 grit Al Ox wheel and the Woodcut Tru Grind. Most turners will get the results they are after with this set up.

[Mobyturns]

I always reckon its horses for courses. If you are doing production bowl work in hard timbers give the Tormek a miss and go for a jig system like the Wolverine which is fast to setup and grind on a traditional 8" grinder with an Alox wheel. Finish cuts on bowls, have another gouge and use the Tormek. On the other hand if you do small and delicate the Tormek does an excellent job and produces a razor edge if you wish. Or you could have the best of both worlds and use the Tormek mount for your traditional bench grinder and use your wheel of preference and have the bonus of the Tormek jigs.

I use both, the bench grinder with Alox wheel and Tormek & Heligrind jigs for shaping gouges and for routine sharpening for roughing work, then the Tormek T7 & jigs & the Heligrind jigs on the Tormek for the finesse work. I love the profile the Heligrind produces for spindle gouges.

[NeilS]

Thank you Colin for your detailed analysis which led to your decisions.

I don't think you will be disappointed with what you have decided.

A tip: I took both of my wheels (CBN and diamond) with me and test fitted them on the grinders that I was considering. Both had nominal 5/8" arbors, but I found the fit varied on grinders with nominal 5/8" spindles. With this type of wheel the fit has to be perfect as you can't true them up like you do an AlOx wheel. If the salespeople raise their eyebrows at your request to remove their standard wheels so you can test fit yours, just tell them that your wheel is worth more than their grinders, and if that doesn't work try charming them by telling them that you are the Prince searching for Cinderella...:B

[Paul39]

If by trial you can get close but not perfect, you can make a shim of beer can stock by cutting with ordinary paper scissors. Wrap around the shaft so the ends almost butt. Add a second layer if needed.

Once the wheel is centered the washers will hold it in place.

[Tim the Timber Turner]

What do I use? The Al Ox!!

My recommendation: 8" 80 grit Al Ox wheel and the Woodcut Tru Grind. Most turners will get the results they are after with this set up.

After trying different systems over many years, including a Tormek, I too use a 80 grit alox wheel and a Trugrind for the fingernail grind on the gouges.

Cheers

Tim:)

[Colin62]

Just to update with some progress - I have now got the grinder that will last me the rest of my life.

After looking at many cheaply made grinders (some of which aren't sold all that cheaply), I decided to stop messing around and bought myself a slow speed Creusen. I dithered a bit because it's a 6" grinder, not and 8", as they don't do a 8" slow speed in the range that is imported here. It's a DS7500TS, and comes with two 150mm x 40mm wheels, which means that the 40mm wide CBN wheel will fit comfortably. I don't know what grits the wheels are, but they are certainly finer than the standard 40/60 that come with most grinders. The pamphlet that came with it suggested 60/100, but they look finer than that to my (inexperienced) eye.

It's chalk and cheese compared to the other grinders I've seen, and I'm very happy I decided to spend the extra and get it. (It cost me roughly the equivalent of $260). It's perfectly usable for what I need even with the stock wheels, and I'm in no rush to get the CBN wheel (I will still get it, but it's not urgent as the existing wheels are pretty good and I don't want to waste them). The Wolverine jigs work well too, I found I was able to repeat the grind I had put on my favourite bowl gouge quite easily without grinding away extra steel.

There are a few sharp chisels in my workshop now :D

[Paul39]

Colin,

I think you will be pleased with your grinder and jigs in the long run.

If the old grinder to the right of your new one in the photo is still working, keep it for shaping mystery metal into lathe tools, sharpening your ax and hoe, grinding off bolt and rivet heads, etc.

[WOODbTURNER]

Colin62,

Did you know that Vicmark sell an 8" slow grinder?
Sorry, I just realised where you are

[rsser]

Good result Colin.

As an aside, I can't see why a slow speed grinder is necessary.

If you can turn spindles at speed (and this is part of the game we learn) you can grind metal at high speed.

With HSS you can get to dull blue/grey at the edge without trashing the tool temper.

You do have to be assiduous at cleaning and truing AlOx wheels regardless of speed or tool steel. I've posted some of my experience with that here: Cleaning and truing bench grinder wheels » Ern's website (http://ern.reeders.net.au/blog/?page_id=167)

[Sturdee]

It's perfectly usable for what I need even with the stock wheels, and I'm in no rush to get the CBN wheel (I will still get it, but it's not urgent as the existing wheels are pretty good and I don't want to waste them).

I fully concur with that as I bought one a while ago. Perfectly balanced, straight out of the box, and I can't overheat them. I use the Tormek jigs with mine and when the grinding wheels wear down I'll also get the CBN wheels.


Good choice.


Peter.

[rsser]

In the realm of AlOx wheel innovation, IME the Norton SG (or 3x) wheels are great all-rounders. Here in Aus they're 3-4x more expensive than white, pink or ruby but well worth it in terms of slow rate of glazing and keeping true. Only come in #46 and #80 though.

See Jim Davey Planes & Sharpening - eShop - Sales - Abrasives & Grinding (http://www.jimdavey-planes-sharpening.com/EShop/EShop.aspx?EshopID=8607ccbf-fea8-48e0-a1d5-90600a129f1a&CategoryID=39bde3d8-f788-4228-80d8-fc8997ae1c66)

[robo hippy]

CBN wheels are like variable speed lathes. Once you have one, you will never go back. Just way too many advantages. Perhaps the only down side is the price, which is more than standard wheels, but they are worth every penny and a far better value. I am a platform sharpener. I blame Allan and Stuart Batty for starting me on that. For production turning, if you think of all the times you put a gouge in a jig, then take it out, and compare that to just putting it on a platform, it is a huge time savings. Any one who has basic turning skills has all the necessary skills for platform sharpening. Anchor the tool on the tool rest, rub the bevel, and cut. Like Yogi Berra said, 'it is 90% mental, and 10% in your head'.

robo hippy

[rsser]

New-material wheels have been hashed over in this forum extensively.

Peeps I respect, as I do you Reed, speak well of the CBN. Already having a diamond resin bond wheel I'm not ready to make the change but maybe in time.

I gather CBN is optimal for HSS inc. high vanadium varieties.

The price of the Norton 3X wheels in relation to diamond and CBN still make them worth investigating IMO for those on limited budgets but who want something more versatile and easier to live with than white, pink or ruby AlOx wheels. The slow rate of wear attests to the makers' claims and they more importantly work well with high carbon tools which is important when you pick up shaggy dog bench chisels or plane blades that need tough love.

[NeilS]

The best recent article on Grinding Wheels (http://www.woodturner.org/community/fundamentals/sharpening/grinding_wheels.pdf) that I have read was written by Bill Neddow; sadly passed away now.

Only quibble I had was his comment that "on metals with a ferrous content the diamond literally disappears". I know that is the advice given by the abrasives industry, but having both CBN and diamond wheels I can't say that has been my experience.

But, if I had neither, I would probably start with a CBN wheel, which are now cost competitive with diamond. That is only a recent development. One advantage of diamond is that it also does tungsten, if that is a consideration.

And, if I had a good new alox wheel that came with a new grinder I would probably also use that up for a while before parting with the extra dollars for either a CBN or diamond wheel. Call me McNeil...:U

[Sevilla]

I use dry grinding with aloxide for shaping tools, I have a 7inch high speed Baldor, and a Tormek T7 for sharpening. Both have the tool rest that Tormek sels. The first works great if you have a soft touch and you need it only once, the second is marvelous for the final sharpening and takes not more that 20 seconds of work. This sistems is excellent in my opinion for all type of steels and also for shaping soft metals.
Regards.