Melbourne, Backsaw Making Workshop

[DSEL74]

Melbourne, Backsaw Making Workshop

I'd like to announce I will be facilitating a backsaw making workshop to be held in Melbourne in early November.

Once the venue has been confirmed I can announce the exact weekend and location and cost. At this stage we are looking at either weekend the 9-10th Nov or 16-17th Nov, Note the workshop will most likely be a one day event only.

Teaching the workshop will our resident expert on all things backsaw RayG along with prolific saw maker IanW.


All material will be supplied for the workshop to make a dovetail saw.
Saw plate
Brass Back
Split Nuts
Handle Template
and potentially a block of wood for the handle.


Other items will also be for sale for saw making at home for those wanting to go further
Additional Plate 0.02" and 0.015
Split Nuts
Brass Backs
Selection of Drills, specific to fitting Saw Nuts, forstner, pilot, , and drilling the saw plate.
Possibly saw Files if one of suitable quality can be found.



I would like to get expressions of interest in, from the forum as to who would like to participate so I can start to firm up the material quantities to start ordering.

[Pac man]

As a concept I am interested. Further details such as day of week etc would be good to know so i could plan leave.

[DSEL74]

As a concept I am interested. Further details such as day of week etc would be good to know so i could plan leave.


I know Ian has to book his flights down as well. The Guy who approves the use of the Tafe Workshops is away until Friday so hopefully we will have an answer and a firm Day/Date then.

[NCArcher]

A tentative expression of interest at this stage.
Would love to attend but it might be a bit of a stretch.

[doug3030]

I am interested, but whether or not I can participate is subject to factors which can be difficult to control at this point. Once more details are available and it is closer to the time, I may be in a position to do it. Recent family events have rendered time, finances and even state-of-mind to benefit from the learning experience, to allow me to commit at this time.

[Sam]

I'm interested, great idea. What part of Melbourne ?Sam

[DSEL74]

I'm interested, great idea. What part of Melbourne ?Sam

Looking at Chadstone if that doesn't work out it might be Box Hill…. Still to be confirmed.

[DSEL74]

Think I have found a supplier out of the UK for the saw plate, seems cheaper on the shipping than the US. Just need to do the exchange rate check vs the material costs.

[chrisb691]

Tentatively interested. :)

[Bugs72]

Put me down as tentatively interested too.

[charlie250393]

Depending on the final cost I'd certainly be interested.

[DSEL74]

I'm please to see there is a promising response and even from forumites north of the border!


Would you guys like a small block of timber supplied for the handle or would you prefer to bring your own? It would be approx. 145mm x 120mm x 25mm thick.
If supplied it will be an Aussie timber from a small local mill nothing exotic.

Templates will be provided and a sizing chart so you can determine your handle size, and then cut and shape to suit you individually.

[Sam]

Supplied would be my preference.

Any idea of the overall cost at this stage ? Just ball park is fine.

[DSEL74]

Supplied would be my preference.

Any idea of the overall cost at this stage ? Just ball park is fine.


Materials, venue & machine hire, insurance, etc. I'm hoping to get it to be around $100. But really don't know until I get insurance, venue & machine hire, costs from the tafe. I only have rough costs for the materials at present. Also will depend on how many people attend to amortise the tafe costs. It is very frustrating having all these loose ends up in the air.

At the end of the day you will have a custom made saw and the knowledge to make many more.

I know one of the guys in the US is charging $555 to do the same thing. We are doing it as a knowledge sharing exercise and not a money making venture for us.

[Sam]

Thanks DSEL. Still in.

[NCArcher]

I'd prefer timber supplied as well.

[doug3030]

I'm hoping to get it to be around $100...We are doing it as a knowledge sharing exercise and not a money making venture for us.

That is something we definitely should be encouraging within the forum membership. :2tsup::2tsup:

I will do what I can to ensure I can make it, if it is at all possible.

As for timber for the handle, I am split on this one, leaning towards supplying my own so that I can make other saws that look like "a set". If I do decide to go that way I would not mind having the block of standard timber as supplied included in the price, so that it is the same for everyone. I could just take it home to practice on, or make the practice one on the day and make another one from my chosen timber at a later time. Anyway that is a minor detail.

Cheers

Doug :2tsup:

[Optimark]

I'm sort of in, depends upon the actual weekend chosen as one of them is busy for me, my problem if it's the wrong one.

Mick.

[doug3030]

I'm sort of in, depends upon the actual weekend chosen as one of them is busy for me, my problem if it's the wrong one.

Mick.

Well I am hoping it is the weekend of 9-10 November, preferably 9th if its just one day. but whatever will be will be.

[Morbius]

I wish I could attend!

Unfortunately I make Rudolf Hess look like a social butterfly.

Craig

[no_signal]

I'll come. I reckon it'll be way beyond my skill level but it's worth a shot.

I won't be able to make the 16-17 Nov, but besides that I'm all clear.

[Enfield Guy]

I would like to attend. Such a great opportunity to acquire a new set of skills. Of course it would be dependant on cost and availability.

Cheers
Bevan

[DSEL74]

Materials are being ordered, Contact was made with the Tafe, and approved in principle but waiting confirmation, and price and the resolution of who is responsible for the insurance.

We are still looking for a supplier for the timber handle blanks, I have posted on the forum in the timber section to give the small mills an opportunity but have had no response so it may go to the bigger yards.

Things are progressing and I hope to be able to confirm dates and costs soon. Class size will be limited so once the details are announced it will be a first in best dressed scenario, it will be announced here first to give you guys the chance to get in.

[wattycoo]

I would certainly be interested, Ross

[_fly_]

interested, add me to the list please
Peter

[FenceFurniture]

Yep, reckon I'm in.

Same opinion on the timber as Doug - happy to go either way. One can never have too much timber. :U

Pac Man and NCA - do youse snore in upper or lower case Zeds? (please don't say upper and bold). Should we share a car (might be a gentler introduction to the Zeds)?

Dale, I can bring a Handle maker's rasp and a couple of Riffler Rasps if it would help.

As for files....:think:
I suppose the tooth pitch would be dependent upon the maker, but it would sound like they will be be fairly fine toothed, given that they are backsaws. I have some money with a guy in Switzerland at the moment (he owes for a plane from HNT). It's about €125 or something, so he could buy some Vallorbe Needles Cut 4 and post them out (assuming cost effectiveness at Euro prices, and as long as they can be posted as a letter the post shouldn't be too bad). They would be good for 15-20 ppi and possibly even a little coarser.

Cheers
Brett

[DSEL74]

Dale, I can bring a Handle maker's rasp and a couple of Riffler Rasps if it would help.

As for files....:think:
I suppose the tooth pitch would be dependent upon the maker, but it would sound like they will be be fairly fine toothed, given that they are backsaws. I have some money with a guy in Switzerland at the moment (he owes for a plane from HNT). It's about €125 or something, so he could buy some Vallorbe Needles Cut 4 and post them out (assuming cost effectiveness at Euro prices, and as long as they can be posted as a letter the post shouldn't be too bad). They would be good for 15-20 ppi and possibly even a little coarser.

Cheers
Brett


Definitely bring along any special rasps etc and saw vices for those who already have them. You will be able to use them and let other members see the difference and evaluate the need for them.


Check into the files…They must meet your forum test group standards though:2tsup:
PM with the cost and qty.

[FenceFurniture]

Rightio, I've sent an email to the Swiss guy to find out what price he can get the Vallorbe needles for.

[doug3030]

Well I have some great news.

Its my birthday tomorrow and various family members have pooled in to pay for the workshop and some spending money, possibly for parts to make another saw once I have learned the skills, so barring another family catastrophy on the weekend that is chosen, I am a definite starter.

Paying for the course was not really the problem, but now I have a commitment from those who have chosen to pay for it for me (Apparently I am hard to buy for) that they will not be needing my attention on the chosen weekend. :2tsup:

I even have a "green light" to go if its the weekend of the girlfriend's birthday. :2tsup:

Life is GOOOOOOOOOD

Cheers

Doug

[DSEL74]

Well I have some great news.

Its my birthday tomorrow and various family members have pooled in to pay for the workshop and some spending money, possibly for parts to make another saw once I have learned the skills, so barring another family catastrophy on the weekend that is chosen, I am a definite starter.

Paying for the course was not really the problem, but now I have a commitment from those who have chosen to pay for it for me (Apparently I am hard to buy for) that they will not be needing my attention on the chosen weekend. :2tsup:

I even have a "green light" to go if its the weekend of the girlfriend's birthday. :2tsup:

Life is GOOOOOOOOOD

Cheers

Doug


:bday3: Sounds like you have a great family!!

[shedbound]

consider me tentatively interested depending on dates, I have some blackwood that would make nice handles if needed.

[NCArcher]

Pac Man and NCA - do youse snore in upper or lower case Zeds? (please don't say upper and bold). Should we share a car (might be a gentler introduction to the Zeds)?



Brett, my snoring has never bothered me :no: so I don't see why it should bother anyone else. :D
I have relies in Melbourne so I would be freeloading off them. But we can discuss cars a bit closer to the date.

[doug3030]

:bday3: Sounds like you have a great family!!

They have their moments!!

It fluctuates between huge and unreasonable demands on my time to the rare occasion like this where they are insisting that I go out and do something for ME.

Its a bit hard to explain but my life has taken a few interesting paths that has resulted in a rather large "extended family" wherein we all accept each other unconditionally and because fate has decreed that I am at the pinnacle of this conglomeration I have to cover all the shortfallings of everyone else, be it emotional, financial or just the inability of others to obtain and retain a drivers license so I dont have to take them anywhere. But occasionally, just occasionally a whole big chunk of consideration comes back my way which makes it all worthwhile, and that is what is happening here now.

I will take full advantage of it! Looking forward to the workshop!

Cheers

Doug

[Simplicity]

I would defiantly like to attend.
Just depends on work.
Being self employed it comes first :-(

[DSEL74]

Originally we were going to have one saw design for the whole group so everyone makes the same but since I am getting several rolls of saw plate and the difference between the plates is only dollars and cents.

It has been suggested that we offer the option of three saws:

9" @0.015" thin kerf dovetail
9" @0.02" dovetail
10" @0.025" Carcass saw






The question I would like to put to you is which saw would you most likely want to make and would you want to buy a take home kit for an additional saw type, or both kits to make a set of three? Assuming a kit works out to say $50 timber is not included. This allows you to customise the kit to your own liking.

Only reason I ask is that we need to make sure we will have enough brass backs and split nuts, the plate shouldn't be an issue.

** Note we my not be able to get the qty of brassware for extra kits so it is only a suggestion at this stage.


If we do proceed with the kits and options then when you register we will get you to nominate which you want.




Saw to make in Class


9" @0.015" thin kerf dovetail
9" @0.02" dovetail
10" @0.025" Carcass saw


Additional Kit/s



9" @0.015" thin kerf dovetail
9" @0.02" dovetail
10" @0.025" Carcass saw

[FenceFurniture]

Assuming that Ray and Ian will be preparing the brass, I'd be inclined to keep it to 2 saws max, as they already have a lot on their plates (saw or otherwise).

As for my choice/s I'll have to give it a little more thought, but likely to be the Carcase Saw.

[doug3030]

Happy to do the:



9" @0.02" dovetail


at the workshop but I would certainly want at least one kit to take home, probably more.

[Bugs72]

I'd love to make the dovetail saw and take the kit home for the carcass saw.

Grant

[DSEL74]

Happy to do the:


9" @0.02" dovetail


at the workshop but I would certainly want at least one kit to take home, probably more.


Do you mean potentially one of each or multiples of the same???

[charlie250393]

Personally I love the idea of being able to take a kit home to put a newly learnt skill into practice in short order, without having to go through the ordeal of tracking down and fabricating parts. In which case i'd love to make a dovetail saw on the day (the thicker one) and take a carcass kit home to play with.

Jack

[_fly_]

I'd go the thicker dovetail on the day and take home the 2 others to do later.

[Sam]

Will there be much difference between the thicker plate DT and the carcass saw in use ? Genuine question.

I'd like 1 x DT & 1 x carcass and to make the hardest one on the day then take the other as a kit home.

Sam

[IanW]

Will there be much difference between the thicker plate DT and the carcass saw in use ? Genuine question.

I'd like 1 x DT & 1 x carcass and to make the hardest one on the day then take the other as a kit home.

Sam

Sam, I've been corresponding with Dale on this topic, and I think I've managed to confuse both of us, at times!

Originally, I suggested that the ultra-thin saw was something of a connoisseur's choice, and not what I would suggest as ideal for a first project. This is because the thin plate would be more easy to kink if you were rough with it and forced a dull, under-set saw through a deep cut, for example. However, after some reflection, I decided my anxiety might be unnecessary, because this saw is going to be used for shallow cuts 90% of the time (or more) and so the danger is very slight. I've made a few of these for other people, and have so far not had any reports of problems, so they seem to be robust enough, at least for folk of from moderate to very experienced skill levels.

So what would be the difference between a 15 thou and a 20 thou thick saw which have all other dimensions the same? The answer is, very little. The 'ultra-thin' saws I've made myself, are quite light because I used a slightly thinner spine than on my larger saws (3/16" thick vs. 1/4"). These saws have a slightly 'springy' action when sawing - it's hard to describe, but you would notice it. A 20 thou saw will be fractionally heavier (which you would struggle to detect, blindfolded), and have a slightly stiffer feel when sawing. And that's about it.

When sharp & properly set both saws should cut at exactly the same rate, if toothed the same. I can vouch for this because I've compared different thickness saws a number of times. I first made the ' ultra-thin' saw because I thought it should cut faster, on the grounds that being thinner it has to remove less wood to make the same forward progress. I compared it with a saw that was the same except the plate was a bit thicker, & was somewhat surprised to find that they both travelled just as far down the same board after the same number of strokes. Actually, I have demonstrated this a number of times - for the same tooth size, and all else about the tooth profiles being equal, plate thickness makes little or difference to speed of cut, over the range of plate thicknesses I've been able to compare. I'm sure if you pushed it to extremes, you must get a difference, but at the levels we are talking about here, any differences are swamped by the other factors that determine how a saw cuts.

So it's Tweedle Dum or Tweedle Dee which thickness of plate you go for. Both will be fine-bladed saws (most old backsaws are closer to 25 thou) and which feels better to use will depend on you. I've fallen in love with my own ultra-thin' and it has been my go-to dovetail aw for some time, but I lent it to another very experienced w'worker recently, and he didn't like it at all. :shrug:

There is one significant reason why you might prefer the finer plate, and that is the finer the plate, the finer the teeth it will take. Imagine cutting tiny teeth in really thick plate, then further imagine trying to pushing the upper third (the amount of tooth that should be displaced in setting, ideally) of these tiny, thick, teeth over. It is going to be very difficult, & if you do manage to squeeze the plunger hard enough, you are highly likely to end up with badly distorted things that won't cut at all well. I've used an extreme example to illustrate the point....

So, 20 thou plate will take 18-20 tpi reasonably well, while 15 thou plate will accept 24 plus tpi ok. However, I am not a big fan of very fine teeth. My thin-plate saw has about 15 1/2 tpi (that happened because of the template I used, it wasn't deliberate!) and I find that perfect for general cabinet-making, where I would be cutting dovetails in wood up to 19mm, but most often 16mm thick. I also use it on wood down to around 8mm, and occasionally even 6, without any problems. At 6mm, there are only about 4 teeth in the cut when the saw is horizontal, which is not ideal, but with a light saw & a light touch, it works fine. The reason I prefer my teeth on the larger rather than smaller end of the scale is that in general, larger teeth will cut faster because the gullets can hold more waste & they clog less & so cut faster, on average.

In summary, there would be little or no difference in most respects that matter, between the two gauges of dovetail saw toothed the same. The ultra-thin will give you some bragging rights at any toolaholics get-together, but unless you want a very fine-toothed saw (& there are people who do need or want them), either gauge will work very well for a good workaday dovetail saw.

The carcase saw is a different beast - this will be a longer, deeper saw and I think 20 thou plate is as thin as I'd like to use on a saw that size, myself. The saws are meant to be complementary, and I will be advising people to angle the grip of the carcase saw a little differently, and file it as a crosscut, depending on how they intend to use it most, of course. It will therefore be a little more challenging than the dovetail saw, which is why the d'tail was promoted as the one to make at the w'shop, though not much more. Once you get the idea of filing teeth, and we get you armed with a decent file, you will be well on your way, and you should find making any subsequent saws a breeze! :U

Cheers,

[wattycoo]

If I am lucky enough to attend I would prefer to make the thicker plate dovetail saw and take the other two as kits. My only question - Is one day long enough to make a saw? Ross

[DSEL74]

If I am lucky enough to attend I would prefer to make the thicker plate dovetail saw and take the other two as kits. My only question - Is one day long enough to make a saw? Ross


Ross we thinks so provided everyone is of a sufficient level and able to follow along it really isn't rocket science it terms of ability needed. Can't be held accountable for those who may spend more time working their jaw than on their project saw.

At a worst case scenario you would have to do the final shaping/finishing of the handle at home. As most of you will be more than experienced in this area if there is anyone needing assistance there will be someone close by to assist or advice can be given on the forum. The hard parts will have the most focus so everyone has a working blade and the fitting done in class.

[wattycoo]

Sounds good to me. I am a definite starter, Ross

[Simplicity]

I think the idea of one saw on the day and a kit or two to go home with is fantastic.
I would be looking at two kits to go away with.
The price seems very fair,and yes I understand it may go up,that's understandable, seeming as all the hard work sourcing parts has been done.
Matt.

I personally would like to make the thiner dovetail.
And proceed with the other kits at my leisure.

[IanW]

I think the idea of one saw on the day and a kit or two to go home with is fantastic.
I would be looking at two kits to go away with.
The price seems very fair,and yes I understand it may go up,that's understandable, seeming as all the hard work sourcing parts has been done.
Matt.

I personally would like to make the thiner dovetail.
And proceed with the other kits at my leisure.

Simplicity and a couple of others:

The idea is to offer one of two alternatives for the dovetail saw at the workshop, plus the carcase saw so that you could end up with a complementary pair of saws that will form a very good nucleus of any set of bench saws. As I said above, there will be very little practical difference between the two dovetail saws, and to me it does not make a lot of sense to make two saws that are essentially the same. It would make more sense to make a completely different saw if you want three! However, we are going to be flat out getting enough kits together to ensure that everyone has the option of taking home a kit for whichever saw they don't make on the day, if they so wish, so I don't see us being able to offer more than what has been advertised so far. If even the number who have signed on in principle follow through, we are going to have to have a lot of kits ready. Preparing the brass-work and saw-plate is going to be labour-intensive, and is one of the limiting factors, so please keep your expectations reasonable. Dale is looking into the possibility of having components made in batches by industrial scale machinery, which may allow him to offer a range of kits in the future. However, he may find that the quantities he has to order are prohibitively large, & it's a big step to go from a few dozen kits to hundreds - you are talking serious investment. I doubt that's what many of us would be keen to get into, since our primary goal here is recreational , not vocational...

I am already impressed that so many have put their hand up, and that people have expressed a willingness to travel so far to be part of the workshop. However, I have made it clear to Dale that I think we should put a limit on the number for the workshop, because if numbers get above a manageable level, some won't be able to get close enough to the action to see what's going on in the demonstrations, instructors can't give participants sufficient attention, and we'll end up with bottlenecks at the machines we need to use. At the end of the day, you may feel you didn't get your money's worth! I would hate to see anyone who is really keen miss out, so if this workshop ends up over-subscribed, I would suggest to Dale he try to organise another day and keep group sizes manageable, so that everyone feels they had a fair go. How we do that and where it might be would be a matter for subsequent discussion. Dale is the prime mover & shaker of this project, so it's his decision, ultimately.

Cheers,

[Simplicity]

If I can offer assistance in some way before the big day.
I would be happy to.
I'm based in eastern suburbs Melbourne
Sent me PM if u need a hand weekends would be best

[ozhunter]

I'm in for sure. May be able to bludge a ride with FF and co:fingerscrossed:, however, you may need to play this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYhh_i5wc2o) at night, every night, between now and then.:U

[FenceFurniture]

UH-OH! I think he's telling us he pumps out zeds as upper case, bold, italic, 72 point, and probably red. What's more, I could believe it.:doh:

[DSEL74]

As for files....:think:
I suppose the tooth pitch would be dependent upon the maker, but it would sound like they will be be fairly fine toothed, given that they are backsaws. I have some money with a guy in Switzerland at the moment (he owes for a plane from HNT). It's about €125 or something, so he could buy some Vallorbe Needles Cut 4 and post them out (assuming cost effectiveness at Euro prices, and as long as they can be posted as a letter the post shouldn't be too bad). They would be good for 15-20 ppi and possibly even a little coarser.

Cheers
Brett


Brett, Based on you cost comparison over in the saw files 101, Does that mean we are better off sourcing local???

[FenceFurniture]

Brett, Based on you cost comparison over in the saw files 101, Does that mean we are better off sourcing local???ould be Dale. I'm yet to send the cat nos to the chap in Switzerland, but based on the that other Swiss site Oz is looking good for Needle files (somehow).

[kevjed]

I would love to join you guys for this little Tutorial.
It would be nice to have a play and watch everyone get the buzz of rolling your own saw.
Let me know the details when it's all arranged.
Kevin

[doug3030]

Do you mean potentially one of each or multiples of the same???

Sorry for taking so long to reply, computer problems, someone should blow microsoft up.

anyway to answer the question, as I said the thicker dovetail saw would be my choice at the workshop. kits to take home would be ideally a couple of carcase saws, one filed to rip and one to crosscut.

BTW I am hoping the dovetail saw is going to be around 15 TPI?

Carcase saws around 12 TPI?

There has been a bit of mention in the work required to set up the kits for the workshop and take-away kits. This seems to be around the brass bar and the sawblade. Is the course comprehensively teaching all that we need to know to buy the components and make a saw or is some of it prefabricated?

Either way, I am a definite starter, but if there are skills required that are not being included on the course itself, I would like to learn them too and volunteer my time to help set up kits under the tutilage of the experts if that is at all possible.

What machines are needed? I may be able to help out there too.

Cheers

Doug

Edit: How would walnut go for the handles?

[DSEL74]

Sorry for taking so long to reply, computer problems, someone should blow microsoft up.

anyway to answer the question, as I said the thicker dovetail saw would be my choice at the workshop. kits to take home would be ideally a couple of carcase saws, one filed to rip and one to crosscut.

BTW I am hoping the dovetail saw is going to be around 15 TPI?

Carcase saws around 12 TPI?

There has been a bit of mention in the work required to set up the kits for the workshop and take-away kits. This seems to be around the brass bar and the sawblade. Is the course comprehensively teaching all that we need to know to buy the components and make a saw or is some of it prefabricated?

Either way, I am a definite starter, but if there are skills required that are not being included on the course itself, I would like to learn them too and volunteer my time to help set up kits under the tutilage of the experts if that is at all possible.

What machines are needed? I may be able to help out there too.

Cheers

Doug

Edit: How would walnut go for the handles?


Ok now there is a thinking man, one cross cut & one rip. The dovetail saw will be what ever TPI you desire to file the teeth at. Same with the others, it is up to the individual. Various guides for setting out the spacing will be on hand.

The work we are referring to is sourcing the stock for the blades, as it isn't easily found especially at the prices I'm getting for you guys and in a bright finish, mostly it comes blue oxidised and you have to remove the blue and polish it. The plate will come in large rolls. So it needs to be cut down in length, and in the case of the dovetail saw width as well. This is done with an angle grinder with a then cutting wheel and some clamped guides.

The brass backs need to have the slit cut into them with a slitting saw on an arbor either in a sturdy drill press with a custom made table setup or done in a mill.

The brass bolts and split nuts again are being turned up on a lathe manually.

All this is being done for you at no cost guys, You are simply getting it for the cost of material. Which is why the kit is half the price of what you will buy from the guys in the selling overseas and your not paying freight on top of that! Which is makes the kit super cheap as freight is often triple the product.

If we were to do all this physically in the class we would be there a month, it will how ever be explained how its done and various options as to how it can be achieved at home if you wish to go further after the kits from raw materials.


Walnut is excellent for the handles, it needs to be rift sawn or quarter sawn and the grain running through the longest side. Do you have some or are you requesting it, I wasn't really sure of the context?

[doug3030]

Walnut is excellent for the handles, it needs to be rift sawn or quarter sawn and the grain running through the longest side. Do you have some or are you requesting it, I wasn't really sure of the context?


I have some walnut. I will have to have another look at it to make sure it has the right grain orientation next time I am in the timber vault.

CHeers

Doug

[IanW]

BTW I am hoping the dovetail saw is going to be around 15 TPI?

Carcase saws around 12 TPI?

Doug,
Those are exactly the tpis I would recommend for these two saws, rip profile (i.e. 5-8 degrees rake) for the dovetail and crosscut for the carcase saw. That should give you a very versatile pair of bench saws for general small to medium work. However, much of the attraction of rolling your own is to get exactly what you want, and tpi and tooth profiles are the easiest things to alter to suit the individual, so whatever you like. I'll bring a couple of metal templates to mark out the common sizes. This is the easiest & quickest way to do it, but we can have plenty of paper templates available so you can file whatever you want on the day.

Better still, here's a link to a pdf of templates of all the sizes you could possibly want (http://www.oocities.org/plybench/saw_teeth.pdf), so if anyone wants a special tpi, print yourself off the appropriate size and bring it with you on the day. I suggest you print off the one you want & check it against a ruler - different printers seem to come up with different spacings from what the tpi on the page says. There is a different set of templates here (http://www.blackburntools.com/articles/saw-tooth-spacing-templates/index.html)if you prefer these.


There has been a bit of mention in the work required to set up the kits for the workshop and take-away kits. This seems to be around the brass bar and the sawblade. Is the course comprehensively teaching all that we need to know to buy the components and make a saw or is some of it prefabricated?

Doug, the work involved is just time-consuming. My setup is fine for making a saw or three at a time, but I'm not geared up for high production work. To keep costs down, we are preparing as much as possible, and as Dale has said, we should be able to supply kits at a fraction of what a kit bought o'seas would cost you by the time you land it here. Saw-making takes mediaeval technology, really - you could do everything yourself, including making your own steel, if the neighbors don't object to your setting up a smelter in the back yard, but the cost of steel plate & the ease with which you can shape it render that step unnecessary, I think. :U

I intend to show you all I know about making small saws (dunno what we'll do for the other 7 hours & 55 minutes set down for the day! :;). No, seriously, I hope to show you at least a couple of ways of going about each step, which you choose according to your ability & the gear you have at home. For example, you can buy saw bolts, or make them. If you have a metal lathe you can make very professional ones, but you can also make pretty convincing bolts with the simplest of gear. My message will be that you can try this at home..

Walnut is good (either Endiandra (Qld), or Juglans ('real' w'nut) for handles. There are hundreds of woods in the world suitable for handles, so again, it's your choice. For the workshop, we intended to supply the handles for the saws made on the day, but there is no reason not to bring your own, the handles aren't a major cost in this enterprise. These are custom saws, so go with a handle wood you want to live with, but have it pre-prepared so you don't have to waste time on the day. You need a piece about 125mm wide by 200m long, that will clean up to 24mm thick. That size will give you some wriggle-room to get around any small defects. The reasons for specifying thickness are (a) it makes a very comfortable size of grip for the average hand and (b) I'm making the saw bolts 25mm long, so if you go more than a mm thicker, you won't be able to have the bolt heads & nuts exactly flush with the cheeks. I like to have a leetle bit of extra bolt & trim it at the end to keep everything neat & flush.

You can go a bit thinner & trim more off the bolts, if you have a truly special piece of wood you desperately want to use, but I recommend you don't go thinner than 22m or you get a wincey grip that doesn't feel right unless you have a very small hand (in which case you may prefer it thinner!). Two mm variation doesn't sound much, but it can make a very noticeable difference to the 'fullness' of a grip.

Edit: We also made an executive decision to make the bolt heads 7/16" because they will suit the sizes of handles we are making. I will make sets of 1/2" heads as well, so if anyone feels deprived of brass for their handles, they can opt for that size. Once we get things truly settled, I might take a straw poll to see who wants what, so we will be able to get the right mix of sizes....
Keep the questions rolling.... :U

Cheers,

[Pac man]

Thanks for the links to the saw templates. I would like to practice saw filing leading up to the event. The saw templates will show me where to place the teeth on the blank plate . I understand the basics of rip and cross cut teeth and why i would choose a rip over a crosscut for larger work. Where can i find some information on those more advanced concepts of teeth filing for backsaws eg different tooth profiles why i would use one angle over the other, setting up a half rip etc. please

[IanW]

[
...... I understand the basics of rip and cross cut teeth and why i would choose a rip over a crosscut for larger work. Where can i find some information on those more advanced concepts of teeth filing for backsaws eg different tooth profiles why i would use one angle over the other, setting up a half rip etc. please

Short answer: All over the internet, books, old-timers, other Forumites, you-name-it! :U

There is no short answer, really - it's a debated topic and I think some confusion creeps in when folks in our neck of the woods read what Northern hemisphere gurus say and what locals say, because on average, we are gnawing away on very much harder fare than they are. I lived in Nth America for quite some time so I know there isn't much there to compare with our bone-hard & often highly siliceous woods. I recommend the saw-filing treatise (http://www.vintagesaws.com/library/primer/sharp.html)as a good starting point for anyone starting out to make or sharpen a saw. It's not too long-winded, and it explains the function of rake & fleam and how to achieve them. I don't follow his methods exactly, but mine are close enough.

So during the introduction to the w'shop we'll have a discussion about what rake angles and fleam angles do, and what is most likely to happen when you alter them. And I'll almost certainly talk about those that work for me. Participants can chose whatever they like, based on whim or prior experience or for whatever reason. I will use angles for the demos which I've more or less settled on after some trial & error as good for average conditions. These are probably as good a start point as any, but I would expect people will go away and experiment to find what they like best for themselves & not follow me blindly - I'm still groping my way to the light, too!

Cheers,

[doug3030]

Walnut is excellent for the handles, it needs to be rift sawn or quarter sawn and the grain running through the longest side. Do you have some or are you requesting it, I wasn't really sure of the context?

I ventured into the timber vault and found one of my pieces of african walnut (
Lovoa trichilioides). The piece I found is roughsawn, 740 x 220 x 33 mm and it is indeed quarter-sawn. I have another piece somewhere in the timber vault that is a little smaller than this one (or is it a little bigger, all I can say for sure is one is a bit bigger than the other).
The mind is working on a cutting plan to make some handles for a matching set of backsaws and a nice tool-chest to hold them all out of the same timber.
:2tsup: Might be a bit of a squash though, will see how it goes



Doug

[FenceFurniture]

I ventured into the timber vault and found one of my pieces of african walnut (
Lovoa trichilioides). The piece I found is roughsawn, 740 x 220 x 33 mm and it is indeed quarter-sawn. I have another piece somewhere in the timber vault that is a little smaller than this one (or is it a little bigger, all I can say for sure is one is a bit bigger than the other).

The mind is working on a cutting plan to make some handles for a matching set of backsaws and a nice tool-chest to hold them all out of the same timber.
:2tsup: Might be a bit of a squash though, will see how it goes



DougGissalook willya Doug? (you know, the old MM trick of wetting it down 'n' stuff)

[doug3030]

Gissalook willya Doug? (you know, the old MM trick of wetting it down 'n' stuff)


A bit cold outside right now. I am staying right here where it's warm. I can post a piccy but probably after I clean it up a bit. Thicknesser needs the cobwebs blowing out occasionally. Might happen Friday

Cheers

Doug

[FenceFurniture]

A bit cold outside right now. I am staying right here where it's warm.Oh P-lease! I have a statue of a smallish primate in yellow metal in the garden. There were two little almost spherical objects at his feet this morning. Ya might be in Melbourne, but ya ain't in Katoomba!

[doug3030]

Oh P-lease! I have a statue of a smallish primate in yellow metal in the garden. There were two little almost spherical objects at his feet this morning. Ya might be in Melbourne, but ya ain't in Katoomba!


Its my choice that I "aint in Katoomba" Same with the shed :D

Cheers

Doug

[doug3030]

Sorry if I am being a pain talking about timber in this thread.

I really dont think I will have enough african walnut to do all I want to do.

How is Ironbark for saw handles?

[DSEL74]

It's all good Doug.

No idea on iron bark.

Gidgee especially ringed! Is what I'd love to use.

Blackwood or Myrtle. Qld Walnut (& ‘real’ Walnut) and Maple are good, too. She-oak and such like (River Red Gum), traditional apple.

[doug3030]

It's all good Doug.

No idea on iron bark.

Gidgee especially ringed! Is what I'd love to use.

Blackwood or Myrtle. Qld Walnut (& ‘real’ Walnut) and Maple are good, too. She-oak and such like (River Red Gum), traditional apple.


Ok, I thought gidgee might be a bit hard to shape. I have a $#!t|0AD of gidgee! It is not ringed, just fairly plain chocolate brown gidgee. I probably could supply blanks for the entire workshop from plain gidgee if thats what we all want :2tsup: At a reasonable price of course.

Cheers

Doug

edit: added a photo of a sample of the gidgee

[DSEL74]

Ok, I thought gidgee might be a bit hard to shape. I have a $#!t|0AD of gidgee! It is not ringed, just fairly plain chocolate brown gidgee. I probably could supply blanks for the entire workshop from plain gidgee if thats what we all want :2tsup: At a reasonable price of course.

Cheers

Doug


:oo:

Gidgee is a little on the hard side but I have a thing for it. You will have to post some photos.

[doug3030]

:oo:

Gidgee is a little on the hard side but I have a thing for it. You will have to post some photos.

Just added a photo to the post above, then I saw your post. Great minds think alike! :2tsup:

Cheers

Doug

[DSEL74]

Just added a photo to the post above, then I saw your post. Great minds think alike! :2tsup:

Cheers

Doug


I have never been accused of having a great mind before:p

It looks like the photo has a magenta colorcast. I assume the gidgee is actually brown.

[doug3030]

I have never been accused of having a great mind before:p

It looks like the photo has a magenta colorcast. I assume the gidgee is actually brown.

Yeah pretty much brown. there are patches of interesting grain throughout. All in all its an interesting stash.

Do you think it would be suitable as the timber of choice for the workshop?

Doug

[DSEL74]

Yeah pretty much brown. there are patches of interesting grain throughout. All in all its an interesting stash.

Do you think it would be suitable as the timber of choice for the workshop?

Doug


I guess it depends on the sizes you got and if people are happy with it. Have to see what Ian & Ray thinks about using it.

[doug3030]

I guess it depends on the sizes you got and if people are happy with it. Have to see what Ian & Ray thinks about using it.

No worries. It would be good if interested members could indicate if they would like gidgee totes from timber like that in the picture above. I have enough to meet demand, unless this course is going to be a lot bigger than I thought. Hoping Ian and Ray give it their seal of approval.

[IanW]

Sorry if I am being a pain talking about timber in this thread.

I really dont think I will have enough african walnut to do all I want to do.

How is Ironbark for saw handles?

Nope, this is precisely the place to discuss the wood, Doug. It's the handles that make the saw yours more than any other part, so you want to feel you've made the right choice.

If you can find a nice, sound, tight-grained bit of Ironbark, I don't see why it wouldn't make a good handle. But I have to add that I've had little success with most of the Eucalypts I've tried. Apart from being pretty coarse-grained, they tend to harbor many small flaws and splits that you don't find until you get the job 3/4 done, which can be a bit annoying. If you are in doubt about your wood, rough out the handle and watch it for a few days to see if any cracks or splits open up. These are most likely close to the end of the board, so I usually start laying out templates a good couple of inches from the ends if I have enough wood to play with.

Cheers,

[enelef]

Definitely interested in learning a new skill.

Can't wait to see the details

[doug3030]

No worries. It would be good if interested members could indicate if they would like gidgee totes from timber like that in the picture above. I have enough to meet demand, unless this course is going to be a lot bigger than I thought. Hoping Ian and Ray give it their seal of approval.

Never mind the gidgee - the grain orientation is not right and there is a fair bit of checking in it, so it goes back in the timber vault awaiting its turn to shine on another project.

I also dressed up the African Walnut while I had the thicknesser out for the gidgee

280290

[DSEL74]

The saw plate is all ordered and should arrive in 2-3 weeks!:D

I have located some She-Oak which should be suitable and I will endeavour to get a board resawn & thicknessed to make sure it is going to work for us. Is the majority happy with She-Oak??
The timber will come in short or longer lengths depending on how many totes you want out of the board so you can get a matching set if buying additional kits. Again you will have to nominate when enrolling.

I have a few options now for the venue, the weekend has been set and the workshop will take place on either the 9th or 10th Nov. Dependant on the venue we settle on.

We are gearing up to make the brass backs and saw nuts.

We have sourced some saw files and will be getting some needle files also, again will need people to nominate their preference for tpi.



Looks like things are starting to fall into place.:2tsup:

[FenceFurniture]

She Oak is fine.

[Sam]

She oak and that weekend is good for me.

[ozhunter]

Sheoak works for me.

I would probably build a carcase saw (rip) and get a dovetail saw and another carcase saw (cross cut) as a take aways.

Forgive me if I've missed it. Are we able to officially register yet, or is that still in the works?

[DSEL74]

Sheoak works for me.

I would probably build a carcase saw (rip) and get a dovetail saw and another carcase saw (cross cut) as a take aways.

Forgive me if I've missed it. Are we able to officially register yet, or is that still in the works?



The only thing really up in the air is which venue and if it will be on the Sat 9th or Sun 10th…….I was trying to get the Sat so people especially interstaters can go the Melb tools Sale on the Sun morning before heading home.

So far I have two options for the Sunday and waiting to hear back for the Sat venue.




For those of you who are not fussed which day it is I guess I could start taking enrolments as it will be a first in, first served basis with limited places. Places are only secured when payment is received. My hesitation here would be that this may disadvantage some interstate people.

I also want to state it will be a non refundable senario as materials will be cut to your spec. However it is fully transferrable if you can't make it and want to on sell your place and materials on to a friend judging by the responses it shouldn't be difficult to transfer and I will assist in anyway I can. Alternatively if you have paid and can't make it we can post out your kit to you for you to work on at home.

Another reason for this is it looks like we will be turning a few people away due to numbers and this seems the fairest way to assure the people get the best opportunity to attend.

[ozhunter]

Thanks for the reply.

Attending the tool sale works for me :D

I'll watch this space for enrolment details.

[doug3030]

I have located some She-Oak which should be suitable and I will endeavour to get a board resawn & thicknessed to make sure it is going to work for us.

I have a 21 inch bandsaw and a 15 inch thicknesser if that is any help

Sheoak would work for me.

Count me in, just let me know how much and where to send it.

Cheers

Doug

[Simplicity]

I'm not fused either day is good
I'm defiantly in she oak is perfect
Can I assisted in any way

[Optimark]

This is the best weekend for me, I couldn't have attended if it was the other weekend; great news.

I'm in, however shortly we will be heading off and out of web contact (mainly) for the following month or so, if a payment situation can be arranged within the next two weeks it would make life easier for myself.

Direct transfer would be easiest, I assume? Getting a money order isn't a problem either, gave up cheques when I retired and we sold the business.

With regard to TPI and other such details, I really don't know what is best, I just use a generic Taiwanese little saw I picked up about 40 years ago, I count 14 TPI on it at one end (handle) and about 12 TPI at the other end.

I would like to make a dovetail saw, and if possible, materials for a carcase saw.

Mick.

[wattycoo]

I'm also happy with that weekend and the timber, please let me know when and how to pay, Ross

[enelef]

Happy with the choices so far

[kevjed]

Looking good for all of this.
Kevin

[DSEL74]

Look what arrived on my doorstep today!!!!

282811282812

[_fly_]

Very nice thing to find on the doorstep.
And how amazing that you needed some.
what a coincidence...

And I'm in for either day as well.
will make dovetail on the day and take a carcass away with me.

[doug3030]

Look what arrived on my doorstep today!!!!

Looking good!

Cheers

Doug

[enelef]

Wow - :oo:

Nice:cool:

[pmcgee]

I'm a little disturbed with all these non-argumentative people, happily in agreement and salivating at the prospect of a little learnin'

... it's kinda ruining the reputation of the internet.

Just sayin'.
:shrug:

Paul

[pmcgee]

Thanks for the links to the saw templates. I would like to practice saw filing leading up to the event. The saw templates will show me where to place the teeth on the blank plate . I understand the basics of rip and cross cut teeth and why i would choose a rip over a crosscut for larger work. Where can i find some information on those more advanced concepts of teeth filing for backsaws eg different tooth profiles why i would use one angle over the other, setting up a half rip etc. please
I don't know if this is what you are looking for ... but as far as 'advanced' goes ... there is very good information on

- Isaac Smith's Blackburn Tools site
Blackburn Tools - saw tooth geometry (http://www.blackburntools.com/articles/saw-tooth-geometry/index.html)
Blackburn Tools - saw tooth geometry (http://www.blackburntools.com/articles/practical-cross-cut-saw-angles/index.html)

- Woodnet thread pointed out by planemaker
WoodNet Forums: Rip saw filing and a little bit on cross cuts from Simonds....... (http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=5994033&page=3&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1)

- Leif Hanson NorseWoodsmith
Sloped Gullets: The Finer Points of Sharpening | Norse Woodsmith (http://norsewoodsmith.com/content/sloped-gullets-finer-points-sharpening)

[Pac man]

Thanks Paul:2tsup:

[DSEL74]

Joplin Saw Vise Sydney
SAW Vise in Darling Downs, QLD | eBay (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290971196036&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:AU:1120)

[pmcgee]

Lighting per Ikea (USA) ...

LED Perfect for Workbench Light - Popular Woodworking Magazine (http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/editors-blog/led-workbench-light)

Curse You IKEA! (And a Dovetail Dodge) - Popular Woodworking Magazine (http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/chris-schwarz-blog/curse-ikea-dovetail-dodge)

[hiroller]

Hi, I'm interested in attending if there are spots available.

[DSEL74]

SAW Vise in Darling Downs, QLD | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Saw-vise-/290971196036?pt=AU_Power_Tools&hash=item43bf3c1a84&_uhb=1)
Joplin Saw Vice QLD.