Buying an Anvil [Archive] - Woodwork Forums

Marc

5th August 2013, 09:23 PM

When someone wants to start blacksmithing, usually the first thing that comes to mind is an anvil.
Even though the most essential tool is in my view a forge, and an anvil can be improvised, the anvil has some romantic notion of old times.

Unfortunately in Australia we have little in the way of a blacksmith tradition and so the availability of second hand anvils is low.
And this brings me to write this thread.

When I decided to rebuild my blacksmith workshop I was faced with exactly the same dilemma and being an e-bay tragic, I thought it would be easy to find something in it.
Far from it.
The anvils on offer on ebay or gumtree are mostly useless lumps of metal but what is amazing is the descriptions and the prices.

First of all there seems to be a popular notion that old or antique is better than new. Ancient tiered and decaying tools purported as some vintage art piece that like wine or violins, improved with time.

Then there is the fanciful description of "little or no wear". There are two anvils on ebay right now, among a barrage of strange anvil like objects, both in poor condition chipped and worn full of marks with prices that are equal or more than a new one and barely of a reasonable size to do some work on it, the biggest being 89 kilos.

Don't get me wrong, they still can be used, and yes they can be repaired and brought back to life with a lot of work and know how. But why bother? if you can get yourself a 100-150 kilos anvil at say $200 and can make it good again with a few days work on it, OK, you got yourself a bargain. If you buy a 25 or 50 or even 80k anvil for $700 or 800 or 1000...chipped everywhere, full of marks, even deformed, the horn missing, one leg broken off...but hey! it has a mark that says made in kracovia in 1740 ... I don't get it.
A dear friend of mine is a mechanic and he has a large anvil kicking around in his workshop. It is probably 150 kilos and it belonged to his father who used to fix track springs on it. I asked him only once about it and he told me in no uncertain terms that it was priceless and that it would never depart from him.
The fact is that the anvil was way too small for the work his father done on it and the poor thing looks like if it was made out of putty and a giant had pressed his thumb on it and made a round indentation in it 8 inch wide and 2 inch deep and the material squashed to the sides.

Yes I know that you can not walk in Bunnings and buy an anvil, or if you can it is not but another lump of useless metal only this time new out of china made of scrap, and yes, I rather buy an old lump of useless metal than a new lump of the same.

So what to do?

Buy new. Made in Sweden, Made in Czechoslovakia, made in Germany, Spain, Italy, US, and until recently even in Queensland.
And yes it will cost you. But in relative terms it will be much cheaper to buy new then to buy old.
Kohlswa Gjuteri (http://www.kohlswagjuteri.se/brancher-smidesstad.asp?activeImg=brancher&activeLang=en&activeChild=brancher-smidesstad)
BRANCO (http://www.branco.cz/anvils.htm)
Nimba Anvils – anvils made in the USA, double-bick blacksmith anvils, Italian-style anvils: Gladiator Anvil (450lbs), Centurion Anvil (260lbs), Titan Anvil (120lbs) (http://www.nimbaanvils.com/)

And if you want to buy second hand, have a look at what a good second hand anvil looks like:
Anvils for sale (http://www.anvils4sale.com/)

And yes we still make anvils in Australia, Doug Slack Foundry in Emerald QLD 07 4982 4722
No known website
however see the products here:
brisbane blacksmith supplies - anvils, swage/swedge blocks (http://brisbaneblacksmithsupplies.com/anvil_tools/anvils_swage_blocks)
if you buy from them, keep some money aside to take it for heat treatment because they are on the soft side.

And if you still want to look for a bargain, keep your eyes peeled and keep looking. Eventually a good one will pop up, but don't buy an anvil neither because it is "old" nor because it has fancy marks, names, dates or wights on it. A good quality anvil that has seen a lot of proper work consistent with it's size will have a polished work surface and still sharp edges. Bashed up tools are a sure sign of either soft material or undersized for the weight of the hammer used on it. You can not use a 10k sledge hammer on a 40k anvil.
Test the bounce, look for signs of a face plate coming off and please don't pay what they ask for it. Try half to begin with, check the new prices and remember that shipping an anvil by sea is cheap.
Good Hunting
Marc
PS
Below is a medium size anvil at 95 kilos its ok for general blacksmithing providing you don't want to do large welding with big hammers. If you do, think 200k up

http://brisbaneblacksmithsupplies.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/anvil_dsf_95kg_50e352b4c6_b_204201640_large.31821710_large.jpg

AndrewOC

5th August 2013, 11:59 PM

Marc

6th August 2013, 08:15 PM

Thanks Marc, straight to the point!
I have been looking for an excuse to buy some of this;
All Steel Merchants and Brokers | Australia's premier Steel Merchants | Counter Weight Material Archives - All Steel Merchants and Brokers | Australia's premier Steel Merchants (http://www.allsteelbrokers.com.au/product-category/steel/steel-counter-weight-material/)
Perfect anvil material, in my view.
However I already have 3.5 London pattern objects (bought long ago, when $2 per pound was affordable), so shouldn't be considering any more (unless a club starts).

Also in Sydney is 'Precision Patterns' who do this; Engineering (http://precisionpatterns.webs.com/apps/photos/album?albumid=14133385)
Their contact is on website (usual disclaimers: I haven't used one, buyers discretion...).
cheers,
AndrewOC

I have to say that after posting this thread I was sort of sorry I stated that the only way to go is new. Clearly not everyone wants to spend 1000 to 2000 on an anvil.
It is also true that a decent welder would set you back just as much, not to mention compressor, drill press, power tools, air tools, oxy set, (dear I say plasma cutter, cold saw, power hammer), forge, hand tools, at the end of the day, the anvil is not the dearest tool in your shop and in fact you will buy more than one if you are like me. I have 4 not counting a miniature one I found and a rail one that is perfect to make bent nail straight again.

However, and even when I doubt i will ever consider doing this, it is possible if time is no objection, to make your own anvil.
Just like it is possible to fix an old anvil if the steel warrants such enterprise, to make your own anvil would be a journey that many blacksmith have thought of but discarded as unpractical, yet others have done with great results.
A search on Google.com would bring up many such projects
here is one guide to it:
Anvil Making articles on anvilfire.com : blacksmithing and metalsmithing reference (http://www.anvilfire.com/21centbs/anvils/making/)

When I find the French copy anvil filled with concrete abhorrent, I particularly like the second German style made by this 16 year old Canadian kid. If a 16 year old can do it ....
Anvils by 16 year old Canadian Daniel Boettger : How fabricated anvils can look and be made well. (http://www.anvilfire.com/21centbs/anvils/making/daniels.php)

And if you are really keen, why not cut and grind down a solid block of steel, caveman style?
Fabricated Anvil by Justin Naylor : anvilfire.com (http://www.anvilfire.com/21centbs/anvils/making/fabricated_naylor_anvil.php)

I think that if you want to do some smithing, you need a fire a hammer some steel and a place to bang on.
A forge can be made with little money. It will not be perfect and it will not be the last you make. I dislike brake drum forges and hairdryer blowers but they work and get you started with $50.
A couple of cross pein hammers and a square lump of steel 150x150x150 dressed with a grinder and a belt sander set on a tree trunk will get you going.

If you got past the objections of your family to the noise, the complaints from the neighbors about the smoke from your forge may be you have something going and then spending a couple of thousands on a good quality new tool like a nimba anvil or similar will not sound too alien.

AndrewOC

6th August 2013, 08:56 PM

Marc

6th August 2013, 10:15 PM

Just for laughs;
Australian Blacksmith Meet "Get Hammered at Moony's" 2012 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R31Cp9cLcV0)
At 4:05 we see our anvil making effort! Just another way, not everyone has a 1000 ton press.
AndrewOC
Must love that powerhammer and that press.
Yes you could make a reasonable anvil forged and pressed that way. Must find a smoother way to move it around though hehe

Marc

18th October 2013, 09:28 PM

From time to time I look at e-bay for anvils, I must say that I do so just for laughs to see what people call an anvil.

Today I saw two BK anvils both in very good conditions, One a bit overpriced, the other very cheap ... so far anyway.
Have a look
Vintage Blacksmith Anvil BK Sydney Aust NO 112 With Stand in Melbourne, VIC | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/VINTAGE-BLACKSMITH-ANVIL-BK-SYDNEY-AUST-No-112-WITH-STAND-/111191808076?pt=AU_ToolsHardwareLocks&hash=item19e38c584c&_uhb=1)

Anvil 74 KG BK Sydney Aust 160 Great Cond in Melbourne, VIC | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/anvil-74-kg-BK-sydney-aust-160-great-cond-/271298545425?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item3f2aa74711&_uhb=1)

Toymaker Len

18th October 2013, 10:48 PM

Marc

19th October 2013, 09:06 PM

I reluctantly sold mine this year (140 kg) and the couple who bought it were going to put a glass top on it and use it as a decorator item in their inner-city warehouse apartment. Oh well, what a waste.

Weird, oh well, did you get a decent price at least?
My brother's in laws have a coffee table made out of a giant working bellow.

Toymaker Len

20th October 2013, 01:28 AM

$750, it wasn't enough but I had stopped using it and couldn't see it rusting in the backyard.

Cliff Rogers

20th October 2013, 09:45 AM

Hare & Forbes have a 70Kg cast steel anvil for $649.
A020 | 117R Blacksmiths Cast Steel Anvil | machineryhouse.com.au (http://www.machineryhouse.com.au/A020)

BobL

20th October 2013, 11:35 AM

Hare & Forbes have a 70Kg cast steel anvil for $649.
A020 | 117R Blacksmiths Cast Steel Anvil | machineryhouse.com.au (http://www.machineryhouse.com.au/A020)

I would be worried about hitting anything on that anvil with anything more than about a 1kg hammer.

Marc

20th October 2013, 01:25 PM

I would be worried about hitting anything on that anvil with anything more than about a 1kg hammer.

Knowing Hares and Forbes, they source most of their stuff from Taiwan. 10 years ago I would have said like you that is a lump of useless metal, however, some of the manufacturers in Taiwan have improved a bit and who knows, making an anvil is not rocket science, It may be that they actually made something usable. For that money however I would buy the Doug Slack one, from memory $500 for 40 kg and 800 for 94 kg

BobL

20th October 2013, 02:46 PM

. . . . For that money however I would buy the Doug Slack one, from memory $500 for 40 kg and 800 for 94 kg

The last price I saw for the 40 kg is $550 and the 94kg is $850.

woodfast

9th November 2013, 10:52 AM

I just bought a anvil 60lb not a large one but useful, I only paid $50.00 for it. It seems in reasonable nick nothing broken off. One question how does one mount it?

BobL

9th November 2013, 02:13 PM

I just bought a anvil 60lb not a large one but useful, I only paid $50.00 for it. It seems in reasonable nick nothing broken off. One question how does one mount it?
Pics?
There's a thread running on mounting an anvil in the MW forum.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/anvil-how-mount-one-178593/#post1715145

Marc

9th November 2013, 02:55 PM

Good question. There are many ways to satisfactory mount an anvil on it's stand.
A stand for a 30K anvil does not need to be too big since that size is considered to be a portable anvil.
I have a Kohlswa 25 and when I need that size, I just have it on the bench or table wherever I happen to be. Actually I have also a 40K anvil, I tend to use that as portable too.

If you want to build a stand for it, it will depend on what type of floor you have in your workshop. A stand will have to absorb the remanent of the impact of your hammer (whatever was not absorbed by the anvils inertia), and keep the anvil steady.

You can have a stand made of a wooden stump, a metal tripod or a metal sand box.

For a 30K anvil your stump will not need to be in the ground as the case for a heavier anvil, so even with a concrete floor you can use a wooden stump. It can be chainsaw cut from a log not smaller than 10", or 4 bits of sleepers bolted together. The most important thing is for it to be square and leveled. You can achieve this by making a jig for a router and get both faces parallel.

The height of the work surface must be the distance from the floor to your hammer in your hand, with the handle horizontal and your arm hanging down. If the floor of your workshop is dirt or pavers, I would take a longer log and bury it to gain stability. The anvil legs can be fixed with spikes, coach screws and a flat bar or even with a few large nails bent.

You can make a metal tripod using heavy angle. If you do so make sure you weld a square or round shoe to the end of each leg to avoid damage to the floor or to stop it digging in the ground, and don't give it too much taper so that the legs are not in your way when you work.

My preferred stand is a sandbox made of 5 mm plate. Think of a truncated pyramid each 4 sides are trapeze the base 50 mm wider than the top.
All welded together including the base. The top is open and the base for the anvil is a rectangle that sits (floats) on the sand you fill the box with. The box base is rectangular so there will be two sides smaller that the other two. The sand absorbs the noise and the height can be regulated by taking sand out or adding some more. Having said that I don't think a sand box stand will suit a 30k anvil, the small mass will make the anvil bounce around too much for comfort. It is suited more to larger anvils 80k and over.

Noise from the anvil can also be reduced by using a large magnet attached to the horn also a heavy chain wrapped around the body. You have a very useful anvil but don't forget it is a small anvil and there is a ratio between the weight of the hammer and the wight of the anvil....well that is debatable but I leave that to whoever wants to start such debate.

Grahame Collins

17th November 2013, 06:46 PM

Marc

16th November 2014, 09:42 AM

I went through a blademaking phase and had a need for an anvil. Being a pauper the purchase price of a "real Anvil" was out of my range.

Visiting the scrapyard I chanced upon some Bisalloy offcut about 450 x 50 x 70W.It was shaped and weld to formed 20mm plate and filled with as much lead as I could get my hands on.

Not a purists anvil by any means but good enough to belt knives out on. It weighs about 60kgs

Grahame

There are a few descriptions of how to make your own anvil on the net. Most need a massive amount of cutting and grinding.
Finding a piece of scrap plate that is 75 to 100 mm thick is not easy but possible.
THe process is rather obvious, cut the anvil shape out of the plate with an oxy cutter, device the legs with the same material to be welded across the base, grind and shape like crazy for days on end, drill the hardy hole out, possibly machine the top, add a hard steel plate on top, figure a way to weld the plate to the body, ( not a problem for you) grind the round horn ... gee, I am tired just by describing it ... ha ha

A better way may be to use fork lift thingies, what are they called again?

Marc

16th November 2014, 09:51 AM

And if you want to do blades, particularly damascus steel blades, rather than hammering forever on an anvil, build a MacDonald rolling mill. Australian invention to roll hot iron without effort, silent and with a pitiful 3/4 hp motor. Home made is the only option since Big Blue stopped production of their version of it.

http://www.anvilfire.com/bookrev/mcdonald/mill.htm

Ueee

17th November 2014, 10:42 AM

Isn't it funny how I mentioned just a couple of weeks ago that Bruce Beamish was making and selling rolling mills right here in aus and now your saying no one makes them. Or are you just grumpy after his somewhat pushy attempt to get you to try one of his hammers? Anyhow, they are available and they are really good to use, be it home made or bought.

Grahame Collins

17th November 2014, 01:08 PM

There are a few descriptions of how to make your own anvil on the net. Most need a massive amount of cutting and grinding.
Finding a piece of scrap plate that is 75 to 100 mm thick is not easy but possible.
THe process is rather obvious, cut the anvil shape out of the plate with an oxy cutter, device the legs with the same material to be welded across the base, grind and shape like crazy for days on end, drill the hardy hole out, possibly machine the top, add a hard steel plate on top, figure a way to weld the plate to the body, ( not a problem for you) grind the round horn ... gee, I am tired just by describing it ... ha ha

A better way may be to use fork lift thingies, what are they called again?

Forks?

re my anvil, I had a set of circumstances line up for me

The steel, 75mm x 75mm x50mm Bisalloy was a trim off cut at the scrappies- -they build dragline buckets here you could park four utes in - crikey I had to pay $2 for him.
I worked in TAFE and had access to tools other people don't normally see - straight line cutter, profile cutter, press brake. 3 phase welders
I did happen to score some mine site 22mm thick discarded welding practice coupons which the base and sides where made from.

I grant you hard work yes! but I cheated on the horn and weld a laminated extension on it ,gouged it, to shaped anvil prepped the weld edges,welded and ground the whole lot off with a real grinder, a 9".

The thing is is you have limited cash there's cheap alternatives and the more effort you can put in -with limited tools I grant you- The better it will be.

When I find my Lincoln welding project book I'll post some fabbed anvil stuff from there.

Marc

17th November 2014, 02:39 PM

Some good photos on anvilfire about making your own anvil.
http://www.anvilfire.com/21centbs/anvils/making/index.php
http://www.anvilfire.com/21centbs/anvils/making/RR-rail_anvils.php

Uee, yes I remember a comment by you, but thought/interpreted he was importing the mills not making them here.
As far as character remarks, I think it is best if they stay unsaid.
It is much more fun to play with metalwork than argue about metalwork whilst trying to dodge crude ads.

For example I would love to have some welding lessons from Graham if only he was in the same state.