old wooden moulding planes

[JDarvall]

Hi,,,
I went to a local auction a few months ago and went nuts,,,, Everything went so cheap ,,,,felt for the old bloke who owned all this stuff,,,,he should have taken it all to Brisbane,,,,,he would have got 5 times what he got for his collection here in Kyogle.......I mean it was a huge range.... Wood working tools many of us never even seen before .....old stanley doweling machines, every type of stanley plane, etc.... I still kick myself on some of the things I let go.......anyway....

I purchased a bunch of old wooden moulding planes...(ended up with about 15 !) all still in good nick..... Lovely old tools ,far more pleasent to use than routers.....varing profiles ......I've managed to get 4 of them going,,,,the ones in best condition.....blades had to be scary sharp etc.....very exciting and I did this by only lightly polishing their bevels with green compound and totally flatterning their backs to mirror finish on jap stones......

I'm told the only way to resharpen them is to work their backs because if you attack the bevels by hand, which seems to be the only way, you risk modifying the profile so it doesn't match the planes sole anymore,,,,,,

Which seems to be true.......I had a go at one blades bevel because it needed to be brought down (it was near 40 degrees) and made a mess of it with the files,,,,,,,after I'd finished even though the blade was very sharp since the blades profile differed to the sole it would cause the plane to dig to much even though the lowest point was set fine...... I'd imagine success is dependent on the profile as well........

So, What I'm after is advice .....Is there a reliable method for sharpening these profiles ?,,, some little trick that might help ......a fast way to shape a profile to an existing plane body......... I was playing with an idea of a machine that works like a key cutting machine except instead of the origional key you lock in the plane body and it cuts the blade to fit......

[javali]

I'm told the only way to resharpen them is to work their backs because if you attack the bevels by hand, which seems to be the only way, you risk modifying the profile so it doesn't match the planes sole anymore,,,,,,

So, What I'm after is advice .....Is there a reliable method for sharpening these profiles ?,,, some little trick that might help ......a fast way to shape a profile to an existing plane body......... I was playing with an idea of a machine that works like a key cutting machine except instead of the origional key you lock in the plane body and it cuts the blade to fit......

I believe that the way to resharpen moulding plane is by attacking the bevel with slip stones being VERY careful to match the profile.

Working the back is, probably, not the way. One reason is that it limits the wffective lebgth of the blade to the length of the bevel. A more important reason is that old moulding planes irons are usually laminated, with the body being made mostly of wrought iron, with a thin layer of steel at the cutting side. Working the back of the blades will strip the steep, rendering the blade useless.

[JDarvall]

Very tricky alright,,, I'd like to give these planes lots of use which means sharpening more than with just say 1000 grit jap slip stones...I have one of these and its too slow to use on its own....... I'll have to use something coarser first to get the bevel angle down then use the slip stone..... maybe I just need some new round files.... but I found the blades hard to file,,,,files tended to skip over the laminated surface where on regular steel they would bite..... it seems that even if they bite the process will be slow..... really need to grind somehow whilst retaining the shape.....

can you get coarse conical diamond stones ?

[peter byrne]

I am looking forward to some good advice on this question. Meanwhile, I can pass on what I have been doing........

I agree with the previous post about having to tackle the bevels.

I keep a box of assorted offcuts of dowels and old drill bit shanks of many radii, and odds and ends of emery paper. By wrapping the emery paper around the appropriate dowel the concave sections of blade are easily done. For the convex, I carefully use a small stone, having found no better way.

I would like to know how to accurately mark and grind a blade to the right profile once it has become deformed because of careless sharpening (not mine of course!)

You will get a lot of pleasure from the planes.

regards

[journeyman Mick]

A possible solution is to take the blades to a company that grinds custom spidlemoulder knives to see if they can match the required profiles and angles.

Mick

[derekcohen]

I would like to know how to accurately mark and grind a blade to the right profile once it has become deformed because of careless sharpening (not mine of course!)

Hi Peter

Here is an idea that I have just thought of ...

Remove the blade, spray the sole with a release agent (spray and cook) or cover it with cling wrap, and then carefully set it into a tub of plaster-of-paris. This will leave an accurate impression of the shape the blade needs to be.

Now you can do one of two things:

(1) use contact glue to attach sandpaper to the shape and grind the blade on this, or

(2) carefully cut a slice of the plaster cast, and use this as a template to draw a line on the blade to which you can grind.

Can I pass you a piece of chocolate cake? :)

Regards

Derek

[Schtoo]

Nice idea.

But why not skip the soft plaster and go with something a with a little more structural integrity?

Plasti-bond, bog or epoxy should all work just a tad better, if a little more pricy. You could always run a thin layer of epoxy, and bulk it up with the plaster too. :D

There is one thing I keep thinking about this though. If you make a 'thingy' out of whatever to hone/shape the blade based on the sole, it's only going to be accurate if you hone the blade at the bedding angle of the plane. Once you decide to give the blade a little bit of a finer bevel, something less than the bedding angle, that honing guide just became useless.

Or am I missing something here?

[derekcohen]

Ahh, simpler idea comes to me ...

Just poke the blade slightly out of its hole .. er .. mouth, and mark it with a texta (magic marker). Then grind to this shape. When re-grinding, check the profile again using a texta.

Oh Schtoo, yes Plasti-Bond is probably better (stronger) than plaster-of-paris.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[capedcrusader]

I was interested in this idea for making custom moulder blades. Like Mick says you could probably get someone with a CNC machine to make multiple copies from the plane sole/ profile drawing produced from the sole. Carbatec melbourne said that they would get CNC moulder knives made in Taiwan cheaply but that was Carbatecmelbourne (now extinct?) and a while ago. I called local CNC tool grinders but they wanted just as much to do it as the guys who grind them by hand. You can buy 2nd hand tool cutter grinder machines but not for under 5 grand (I think) but they dont work from a profile guide like a key cutting maching I dont think. I wonder why not? - seems like a good idea to me.

[Ashore]

A guy in the states Patric Leach deals a lot in old planes his web page is www.supertool.com (http://www.supertool.com) links lead to email he may know where you can get replacement blades

I will be interested in the sharpening as I have a stanley 55 that I use a lot and sharpening has always been my bigest concern




The trouble with life is there's no background music.

[peter byrne]

Following on from Derek and Ashore's comments...........

I have considered all the options put up. It all seems so difficult. I might have another drink and think about it all for another year. Then again, have you noticed the prices old complex moulders are fetching on eBay? And there is no guarantee that the blade and the wood match.

Which brings us to the venerable #55, which, by the way, Patrick Leach professes to loathe. The wonderful thing about the #55 is that you can morph the blade shape over time, and nobody is any the wiser. No matching sole to worry about. The blades are difficult to sharpen, but with a little kit of shapes and emery, it can be done pretty efficiently. The trouble is that the bloody tool does not offer much of a sole - three runners at best - so tear out and all the other frustrations arise.

I use a #55 quite frequently. I feel I have mastered it. But with the prices of old complex moulders being what they are; and the frustrations of tear out and grain; I have started to have dreams about routers.

This is getting serious

regards

[Ashore]

I use a #55 quite frequently. I feel I have mastered it. But with the prices of old complex moulders being what they are; and the frustrations of tear out and grain; I have started to have dreams about routers.

This is getting serious

regards
Peter another user of the old 55
I purchased mine in hobart on a trip came with all the blades in good order but fully apart . Took much research and 2 weeks to get the thing together and working today I love it and with too much time on my hands well I'll say no more
But would love to learn quicker methods in blade sharpening.Thus my intrest in this topic


The trouble with life is there's no background music.

[JDarvall]

I have tried just poking the blade through the bottom of the plane and scribing the profile to the blade with a pen.....its the only way I know....and it works reasonably well but not accurately enough for my liking.......I find it difficult getting the pen in there, over the mouth especially when the profiles detailed.............

thats why I like the casting ideas you guys have mentioned using epoxy and the like.....no gaps, with the blade right on the profile.....I'll give it a go...... but thinking ...wouldn't you have to cut a cross-section in the mold at 45 degrees(or whatever it is for that particular plane, some are 50 and 55) and line up the blade to that for scribing the shape to ..... at 90 degrees the profiles different slightly...different enough for the blade to protrude out more from different places off the sole than others ....which is what you want to avoid right ? ......am I visualising this right. ?...

I feel accuracy with these planes is essential......If you don't get the blade poking out the same amount over EVERY part of these curvy soles then you can't really set the tool to produce fine shavings,,,,ie. you can't control it very well because some part of the blade will cut whilst another may not etc ...so the plane won't drop forming the profile in your stock.........and as everyone knows the difference between a fine shaving and a coarse one is a very subtle one.....and yet that subtleness is something we must adhere to when we sharpen...... there must be a better way...

That casting idea to get a accurately scribed line combined with something I tried yesterday may solve the problem completely......

I experimented yesterday with a 4" grinding disk.....the kind you put in regular angle grinders....except it was very thin(1mm thick, cuts quickly)...I mounted it on a small grinding setup and set up a toolrest off it at about 25 degrees so I could feed a blade into it certain that the bevel will always stay at 25 degrees which for me is something I can't always keep up with files and the like ........the bueaty of this simple setup was the blade was so thin it could always get into any concave profile accurately......It seemed to be a quick yet controled way of removing material ,,,something I found hard doing with regular files and grinding wheels.......
After grinding one particular profile near a feather edge (with fingers near tip to moniter heat buildup) I took it to a shaped hard buffing wheel loaded with green compound (both from carpa-tec) and polished the edges tip only then backed off on the 8000 jap stone......put it back in with wax on everything and it worked very well.......shavings I could blow my nose on....beat the crap out of those noisey unforgiving routers !!....... I think what made all the difference was being able to get right in close with plenty of light and grind the blades profile spot on to my scribed line with that 1mm disk......

Finally got a camera for the first timeso here's some pictures......thinking now probably should have had a tool rest for buffing wheel at say 30 degrees to help reduce rounding.......hows my photography ?

[Ashore]

The photography is great i shall try similar thanks . Have thought about your key cutting profile idea I have a mate whos a bootmaker / ket cutter and see what he can steer me towards in seconhand m/cs to modify I'm sure there is a market for reground blades but if i get it up & running yours are free

Rgds Russell

[Schtoo]

I think my dad still has at least one old key cutting machine. No you can't have it. :D

Helps that he is a locksmith I guess.

I guess you would just have to make sure that you could adjust the thing to account for grinding disk wear as it goes across the blade. Light cuts and the right wheel would prolly solve it, but still if you are going to do it, might as well do it right off the bat.

As for an old machine, check out old hardware stores, especially if they are closing down. Be nice if they were not shutting up shop, but that's what happens when that big B place comes to town.

At least the one I was working at got bought out by them. If you can't beat them, buy them? ;)

[JDarvall]

.... Have thought about your key cutting profile idea I have a mate whos a bootmaker / ket cutter and see what he can steer me towards in seconhand m/cs to modify I'm sure there is a market for reground blades but if i get it up & running yours are free

Rgds Russell

bugger...... I've given away a money making idea before patenting it have I ? ......I'm not sure how I feel about this..........

no, matter......here something that may help you towards your first prototype.......from bunning I was thinking of buying one of those cheapo 6" grinders (about $40 or something).....has a small moter which I thought was good becuase the housing on regular grinders protrude so much they often foul the movement of anytype of jigging that you may have setup.........

anyway with one of these machines bolted down and a thin grinding disk installed you could have mounted fixed just off the table somehow a stationary metal disk offset a bit but oriented the same way as the grinding disk......then have a bar suspended in front of and perpendicular to the disks that runs a laterial bearing.......
On the laterial bearing make two jigs that allows you to grip both a template blade and the blade you want to copy the template to....with the template blade butting up against the stationary disk and the blade you wont copied butting up against the grinding disk..........you know........the whole thing works like a big mega-sketcher....or key cutter.......the bars height could be adjustable so you could adjust the grinding angle

Heat buildup could be a problem ....such that you'll loose temper in the steel.....so maybe it would be best to use it prior to heat treatment..... so you can burn the crap out of it knowing that it doesn't matter because you can latter harden and temper it latter.....
Otherwise I reakon you'd have to shape the edge identical to the template first by having a 90 degree grinding angle (I mean ...take it straight in) then grind to feather edge watching heat ......then buff....hang on ....maybe that could be an extention to the idea......a second wheel that buffs the edge (have to be a thin one like grinding disk with metal plates on side to keep shape maybe..)...........so you end up with a machine that allows you to grind a blank to a perfect profile then buff it razor sharp all without having to remove it from just one jig...........what do you reakon.....clever or bullsh#t ?
(should I use more #'s to disquise this ??? )

[Schtoo]

For that matter, you could have a series of cutters. Set your template in one jig thingy, the blade can go into a series of them, all set up so that it will be ground in the same spot every time. Just like a key cutter does it, but with a few more wheels and things in it. Even go as far as a slow speed grinding part and a high speed buffing/honing part.

I doubt it would be for everyone, but it would be great for folks who have a bunch-o-planes with wacky blades, and folks who have molding cutters too. Might take a little fiddling and messing around, but it might just work.

I know I have a bunch of small grinding wheels that are made for grinding shapes, they might just be the ticket. If I had enough spare time I would make one up just for the heck of it.

So, who's going to be the first with their own half-baked cutter cutter? :D

[JDarvall]

yeh,,,,like that ,,, have to have slow grinding speeds and reverse direction high speed buff......maybe even further ......a way of using old moulding planes that have warped too far out of shape.....can't really use them.....but if we retrue them...with say sandpaper stuck bars etc......lapping these old soles, destroying the origional profile but ending up with a sole thats true......then clamping this newly trued plane with the new profile in the jig somehow and using it instead of a template blank.......if you have a machine like this you could create any profile you like very easily........just shape a plane body and the machine would take care of the hard part..ie.make the cutter for you.....In fact I reakon this would be the way to go because there are so many different plane profiles out there, so many plane makers, so I imagine the cutters would differ slightly even though they seem to be the same profile.... save on have to create a huge range of template blanks to cover every profile there is ....

A moulding plane blade maker with a machine like this could just say to a customer' bring your planes in.....trued up is best...pick them up in the afternoon each with a new A2 (or whatever) blade........that will be $500 a blade thanks..."......
he could add........."yeh,,,,, blokes in the old days new what woodworking was all about,,,,, more spirit in these old tools.....not like these bloody noisy, bulky, unforgiving, expensive routers......"

[scooter]

Only aware of moulding planes from afar, but is the back of the plane at 90 degrees to the sole?

How would you go putting that end (or a 90 degree slice of the sole in plaster / bog) on a scanner, to get the exact profile of the sole, then using a CAD program (paging Rocker, Rocker to the service desk please) to apply a perspective relating to the bedding angle of the iron. This could then generate an accurate profile which could be scribed onto the iron for grinding / shaping.


HTH...............Sean, roll on Hitachi m12v ;)

[routermaniac]

I am starting to think that I did the right thing not buying some of these mooulding planes... they maybe more trouble than they're worth. I guess for some things you just cant beat the simplicity of the router :-)

[Ashore]

If I get one up and running you get half the royalties or a six pac at least
I think i will concentrate on the one gringing process for mark 1
My thought is to use an air grinder that swings into a stop then follows the profile swings away so you could change stones The area to grind on my blades is not that great and at this stage they are in good condition but in the future ?
As far as retempering it can be very dicie, colour change with my eyesight
did a set of chisels when I was a trainee but that was 30 years ago . no I think slow and careful for me and if I use an air grinder then water cooling is no problem, Still I like the angle grinder idea it would be easier to set up and proberly more accurate.
Another wine and tomorrow I'll think some more and start drawing.

Rgds And thanks
Russell



The trouble with life is there's no background music.

[Schtoo]

Tell ya what, just had an idea. Don't know if it's workable or not.

First, have your reader pin, blade, whatever, it's adjustable for wheel wear and tuning. Then your blade holder is adjustable for bevel angle. The reader reads the sole or template you choose, but the part that holds the blade and template must run perpendicular to the grinding wheel, not an arc. If it's an arc, it will prolly introduce a little error as you are not cutting square, but cutting at a bevel.

Even easier is to do it all with CNC huh? Tell it to cut the sole, then cut the blade to suit. :D