Metal stairs

[Marc]

I am about to build some stairs in steel. Stringers are U channel and wooden steps supported by L bar. very basic stuff.
Question:
Because it will be outside, I have to take the stringers for galvanizing after finish welding the L bars for the steps.
a)Is it necessary to weld all around each step support so that it does not rust between the U channel and the L bar? or will the galvanizing stop it from rusting even when it can not reach between the two metal parts?
b) Does anyone know who supplies T bar in smaller sizes say 25mm 30mm 40mm 50mm ?

Regards
Marc

[KBs PensNmore]

I am about to build some stairs in steel. Stringers are U channel and wooden steps supported by L bar. very basic stuff.
Question:
Because it will be outside, I have to take the stringers for galvanizing after finish welding the L bars for the steps.
a)Is it necessary to weld all around each step support so that it does not rust between the U channel and the L bar? or will the galvanizing stop it from rusting even when it can not reach between the two metal parts?
b) Does anyone know who supplies T bar in smaller sizes say 25mm 30mm 40mm 50mm ?

Regards
Marc


Hi Marc, you shouldn't have to fully weld the angle to the stringer, as the galvanizing should flow around the whole thing. Just to make sure contact the people who will do the galvanizing.
Will it be arc or MIG welded? If it's arc welded make sure to remove all the slag as the galv won't stick to slag and will rust after a short time.:((
Contact the larger steel stores for the T bar.
Regards
Kryn

[Marc]

Hi Marc, you shouldn't have to fully weld the angle to the stringer, as the galvanizing should flow around the whole thing. Just to make sure contact the people who will do the galvanizing.
Will it be arc or MIG welded? If it's arc welded make sure to remove all the slag as the galv won't stick to slag and will rust after a short time.:((
Contact the larger steel stores for the T bar.
Regards
Kryn
MIG for the weld, I'll check with the galvo guys.
T bar not so simple. No one carries small t bar only large 100x100x10 or so galvanised for lintels
There was a small mob that use to import them fromItaly at the outrageos price of $80 a bar of 25x25x3 but I think they are out of business. There is a supplier in India but they dont deliver 10 bars by post he he

[Machtool]

Is it necessary to weld all around each step support so that it does not rust between the U channel and the L bar? or will the galvanizing stop it from rusting even when it can not reach between the two metal parts?

I did a fairly extensive balcony, with steel framed stairs and a landing, 3-4 years ago. On the angle irons I welded to the stringers. I drilled 1/4" holes 2 or 3 of them into the face that was getting attached to the stringer. Just stitch welded. I figured that the holes would either let zinc get in behind the joint, or let air out when they dipped them. No ill effects or rust yet.

Regards Phil.

[PDW]

I am about to build some stairs in steel. Stringers are U channel and wooden steps supported by L bar. very basic stuff.


Just *why* would you use L bar (which I presume means angle iron) *welded* to steel U channel to support steps???

Use flat bar welded to the U channel and you won't have any problems with possible inclusions behind the leg of the angle iron or access for galvanising. It's more than strong enough. That's how I've built the 1.2m wide staircase to the mezzanine floor in my workshop except I used 150x6 FB for the stringers (and 65x6 FB to bolt the stair treads to). I had a lot of steel left over from boat building you see.

If you're not confident enough in your welding to be happy welding flat bar at right angles to U channel, I submit that you shouldn't be doing this project at all.

PDW

[gallegos]

My understanding is that galvanisers don't like things with sealed voids because they can explode when in the bath due to the heat expanding the trapped gas... might be worth checking with the galvaniser first to see if they are comfortable with it.

If you included vent holes for galvanising you could fill these with mastic or silicone during installation.

[whitey56]

Have you had a look at " Steel tread riser brackets" on the net, They come ready to weld with holes drilled in black steel, only a few bucks each it won't get any easier than that.

[bob ward]

Or even easier buy the stringers ready made, including hot dipping.

[Oldneweng]

My 2 cents. I have recycled professionally made stairs/steps which had rust behind the step supports due to galv not getting into the void. I also have a length of 1 1/4" pipe with about 5 inches of galv filling up the bottom. A bit of spare. I think it came from the same steps.

I would go with PDW and use flat welded on edge. Given that the stringers are channel, they will not flex so flat step mounts would be more than enough.

Dean

[Marc]

Hm yes, rust, and this is an outdoor stair.
Flat bar has its merit over the L bar (uups, angle iron)
Will have to stitch the two stringers together to avoid distortion

Can anyone tell me where to buy small size T bar short of Italy or India? ... (no not Thai bar)

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=steel+l+bar&es_sm=93&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=PKhKUoEEofCJB53bgbAM&ved=0CC4QsAQ

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=steel+t+bar&es_sm=93&biw=1280&bih=887&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=YKhKUqC2BYnuiAeQt4Fg&sqi=2&ved=0CD8QsAQ

[Oldneweng]

Hm yes, rust, and this is an outdoor stair.
Flat bar has its merit over the L bar (uups, angle iron)
Will have to stitch the two stringers together to avoid distortion

Can anyone tell me where to buy small size T bar short of Italy or India? ... (no not Thai bar)

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=steel+l+bar&es_sm=93&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=PKhKUoEEofCJB53bgbAM&ved=0CC4QsAQ

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=steel+t+bar&es_sm=93&biw=1280&bih=887&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=YKhKUqC2BYnuiAeQt4Fg&sqi=2&ved=0CD8QsAQ

Stitch the stringers together for the galv process?

Many years ago I saw the before and after effects of a largish floating platform for an irrigation pump to float on a farm dam being galvanised. It would have been a very large farm dam. The inlet/outlet for the pump were about 6inch diam. After galv treatment the pump would not fit in where it was meant to. Nowhere near it. Way off in fact.

What do you want the T Bar for. I have no idea about a source but maybe something else can be discovered.

Dean

[j.ashburn]

Stitch the stringers together for the galv process?

Many years ago I saw the before and after effects of a largish floating platform for an irrigation pump to float on a farm dam being galvanised. It would have been a very large farm dam. The inlet/outlet for the pump were about 6inch diam. After galv treatment the pump would not fit in where it was meant to. Nowhere near it. Way off in fact.

What do you want the T Bar for. I have no idea about a source but maybe something else can be discovered.

Dean
If you really need tee section that bad can stitch angle iron back to back for your tee section,but that is a WOFTAM, just up your steel size as already covered. J.

[Marc]

I mean to say that if I use flat in stead of L, I will need to weld allalong both sides. A lot of heat to bend the stringer so will have to tac weld all the supports then stitch up the 2 U channels together and then finish welding.
T bar...have to make a few steel windows the old fashion way with small rectangles say 20x 30cm and for that will need t bar 25x25x3 or5 if need be. It can be done with flat but it's a pain.

[Oldneweng]

I mean to say that if I use flat in stead of L, I will need to weld allalong both sides. A lot of heat to bend the stringer so will have to tac weld all the supports then stitch up the 2 U channels together and then finish welding.
T bar...have to make a few steel windows the old fashion way with small rectangles say 20x 30cm and for that will need t bar 25x25x3 or5 if need be. It can be done with flat but it's a pain.

There will be some give in the timber which will fatigue the welds. Understood. Re stiching the stringers also understood. The stairs/steps I recycled were of steel with steps about 120mm wide. After cutting them off the channel stringers had a serious bend in each.

I used to have a stone house with steel windows like you mentioned. Fixed pane in the middle and casement panels at each end. I have often seen them removed to fit ali windows. I thought anyone doing this has got to have rocks in their head. They were very good windows. A bit fussy to replace glass but very strong and secure. Just had to have the latest fancy flimsy insecure rubbish I guess.

Dean

[Marc]

There will be some give in the timber which will fatigue the welds. Understood. Re stiching the stringers also understood. The stairs/steps I recycled were of steel with steps about 120mm wide. After cutting them off the channel stringers had a serious bend in each.

I used to have a stone house with steel windows like you mentioned. Fixed pane in the middle and casement panels at each end. I have often seen them removed to fit ali windows. I thought anyone doing this has got to have rocks in their head. They were very good windows. A bit fussy to replace glass but very strong and secure. Just had to have the latest fancy flimsy insecure rubbish I guess.

Dean
Yes, I could bend the flat bar 3" down at the front and use that to bolt a bit of wood say 4" and have a riser of sorts and brace the flat bar in the process.
English style windows I call them. They are good and you dont need bars on the window against burglars if you are creative with how you lock the part that opens.

[Marc]

I remember a guy who bought a period stone house with original narrow tall windows, numerous fireplace etc
wife was pregnant and kept on saying she felt she was choking, no air! So he not only ripped out the iron windows, he widened the openings cutting into the stonework, place lower lintels and aluminium sliding windows.
i will not tell you what else he did to that house, it is too sad.

[Marc]

Have you had a look at " Steel tread riser brackets" on the net, They come ready to weld with holes drilled in black steel, only a few bucks each it won't get any easier than that.
Yes, those ready made stringers are very tempting but I have my head set in making something slightly different, plus I need the stringer to have a dog leg at the landing end and another at the base since it starts up from an existing deck and it has to bolt onto a bracket that comes out between the deck boards.

[Karl Robbers]

To answer your original question. If lapping sections such as angle iron to the web of the channel, you must space the sections apart if you want to gain the best protection from galvanising, (a bit of mig wire works well). The explosion concern is not a real issue with most galvanisers, capped hollow sections are the real issue there. If drilling vent holes, consideration must be given to the way that the frame will be rigged while dipping, (most baths are narrow, long and deep). Oh, don't forget to allow a bit over normal hole clearance for bolt holes, you don't want to drill out all your lovely galvanising to fit a bolt in a hole.
If it were me, I would use flat bar and stitch weld it on to the channel. There must however be at least say 50mm of weld on the top surface of the flat bar, either 2 X 25mm or 1 X 50mm. This will serve to prevent the fatigue issue caused by the inevitable flex of timber treads.
Consider using Duragal channel as it will be amply strong and lighter than conventional PFC, (galvanisers charge by weight of the component as well, not just weight of the zinc added).
Make sure that you remove the silicon from the finished Mig weld. The pickling bath will not remove this and it is just as harmful as slag in preventing adhesion of the galvanising. My favourite way is a needle scaler, but a coarse wire brush on an angle grinder will also work.
As far as "T" bar goes, good luck with that. I haven't seen any for years other than the heavy lintel sections. It is however available in Aluminium if that helps.

[Marc]

Initially I had this in mind:
Mono Steel Staircase Stair Stringers Stairs Stringer Steps Decking | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/MONO-Steel-staircase-stair-stringers-stairs-stringer-steps-decking-/281175680601?pt=AU_Business_Industrial_Construction_Building_Materials_Hardware&hash=item4177606659&_uhb=1)
Then I realized two problems. One, I much rather have risers between the threads to comply with council and handrails attached to the stringers and not the threads.
Second if I build the stairs with a mono stringer and the massive brackets that go with this build, a 14 steps stair will weight way more than I can lift on my own to take to the Galvinizing mob.

[Marc]

To answer your original question. If lapping sections such as angle iron to the web of the channel, you must space the sections apart if you want to gain the best protection from galvanising, (a bit of mig wire works well). The explosion concern is not a real issue with most galvanisers, capped hollow sections are the real issue there. If drilling vent holes, consideration must be given to the way that the frame will be rigged while dipping, (most baths are narrow, long and deep). Oh, don't forget to allow a bit over normal hole clearance for bolt holes, you don't want to drill out all your lovely galvanising to fit a bolt in a hole.
If it were me, I would use flat bar and stitch weld it on to the channel. There must however be at least say 50mm of weld on the top surface of the flat bar, either 2 X 25mm or 1 X 50mm. This will serve to prevent the fatigue issue caused by the inevitable flex of timber treads.
Consider using Duragal channel as it will be amply strong and lighter than conventional PFC, (galvanisers charge by weight of the component as well, not just weight of the zinc added).
Make sure that you remove the silicon from the finished Mig weld. The pickling bath will not remove this and it is just as harmful as slag in preventing adhesion of the galvanising. My favourite way is a needle scaler, but a coarse wire brush on an angle grinder will also work.
As far as "T" bar goes, good luck with that. I haven't seen any for years other than the heavy lintel sections. It is however available in Aluminium if that helps.
Yes, I realize that flat bar is the way to go. Will probably make a jig to bend the bar in an L shape so to have a place to bolt the risers to and stop the supports to move at all. Bigger holes, agreed.
Two questions: If I use Duragal, I don't think they can galvanize on top of the duragal (?) and in any case it would be wasted. Why not black U channel. They do come in different thickness.
Silicone on the MIG weld? You got me, what silicone?

[Karl Robbers]

Yes, I realize that flat bar is the way to go. Will probably make a jig to bend the bar in an L shape so to have a place to bolt the risers to and stop the supports to move at all. Bigger holes, agreed.
Two questions: If I use Duragal, I don't think they can galvanize on top of the duragal (?) and in any case it would be wasted. Why not black U channel. They do come in different thickness.
Silicone on the MIG weld? You got me, what silicone?
Actually, Duragal takes galvanising beauitfully. Been there done that one.
Here at least, Duragal is the most commonly available of the folded channels, discounting of course C section purlin. Duragal is usually pretty well priced also.

[Karl Robbers]

Forgot about the silicon.
All mig wire contains silicon as a de oxidiser. The amount is designated in the classification by ES2 ES4 or ES6.
After welding this forms a yellowish brown glassy deposit on the weld.