Gas Torches Yet Again

[Oldneweng]

I am looking into gas torches as I said I would in the last thread on this subject.

So far I have looked at

Bullfinch Kit - $350

Sievert Pro 86 - $199

Rothenberger - Contractors Propane Torch - $206

The Rothenberger lists the ability to heat to 2200deg C, brazing to 28mm and soldering to 54mm. Anybody have any experience with these?

It is difficult to find comparable data for some torches.

Dean

[Ueee]

Hi Dean,
I take it you mean this one? Rothenberger Australia PTY LTD - Product Catalogue (http://www.rothenberger.com.au/cgi-bin/object/catalogue.pl?mode=get_product_by_product_category&brand=&product_category_id=32&rothen_rothenbergerproduct-order_by=display_order&rothen_rothenbergerproduct-page=1&rothen_rothenbergerproduct-view=66&rothen_rothenbergerproduct-viewing=1)
Sounds too good to be true to me, brazing to 28mm with LPG? That is a big ask.....but if it does it i want one!
Ew

[Oldneweng]

Hi Dean,
I take it you mean this one? Rothenberger Australia PTY LTD - Product Catalogue (http://www.rothenberger.com.au/cgi-bin/object/catalogue.pl?mode=get_product_by_product_category&brand=&product_category_id=32&rothen_rothenbergerproduct-order_by=display_order&rothen_rothenbergerproduct-page=1&rothen_rothenbergerproduct-view=66&rothen_rothenbergerproduct-viewing=1)
Sounds too good to be true to me, brazing to 28mm with LPG? That is a big ask.....but if it does it i want one!
Ew

That is the one. There is no real information about it as far as I can see but I made enquiries by email to my nearest Reese store and have received a PDF file which gives a little bit of info. About what I have given I think. The price is what they quoted although I have just remembered that it may include some discount due to telling them where I work.

The temperature is a big ask too if you ask me, which you didn't.

PDW said he has a Sievert Promatic which I believe is about double the price of the one I listed. The site I was looking at has all 3 brands but is in UK so I was just using it for comparison. The Sievert Promatic torch handle is dearer than the Pro 86 and does not include the nozzle or hose, just the hand piece.

I am thinking of giving the Rothenberger a try but I will have to wait for the money as I have just spent up big again, on my welder. I will save the cost within just over a year tho.

Dean

[tinkera]

Hi Dean, a couple of weeks ago I was up at the Paskeville field days particularly looking for LPG torches. The Bullfinch agent was there & offered me the kit for $300.00 (Fifty off) I haven't bought one but you might be able to barter. I also emailed a company in Ireland who sell Bullfinch I think about $140 Australian, leaves a lot of room for postage, unfortunately 2 Emails and NO reply. (still coming Sunday?)
tinkera

[bollie7]

I contacted Bullfinch int eh UK last week asking if they sell direct and if they post O/S.
After a couple of dyas they replied tha they have an agent here in Aus (they supplied details) and that I should contact them.
I emailed the agent on Monday this week and got a reply telling me that the torch they had attached to 4.5 KG cylinders not disposable and asking if that was the one I was looking for. Also supplied a phot of the Bulfinch torch on a cyclinder but with an adjustable reg.
I replied "looks like it but the ones I've seen have a non adjustable reg". That was on Monday and so far I haven't had another reply. Pretty typical of a lot of Aussie companies unfortunately.

I'll probably look at buying for a dealer in the UK and getting it posted out here. I have seen another place here in Aus that has them for $350.
You can get them in the UK for as little as 93.47 UK pounds which at todays rates = $156 AUD. Even if it cost $100 to post it here (which I doubt it would) you would still be saving $100.
here the dealer I just found. I haven't enquired about it from them yet.
PROPANE TORCH KITS & ACCESSORIES (http://www.bes.co.uk/products/072.asp) its a fair way down the page under the heading "Brazing"

bollie7

[eskimo]

I have the Rothenberger

Rothenberger Australia PTY LTD - Product Catalogue (http://www.rothenberger.com.au/cgi-bin/object/catalogue.pl?mode=get_product_by_product_category&brand=Rothenberger&product_category_id=32&rothen_rothenbergerproduct-order_by=display_order&rothen_rothenbergerproduct-page=1&rothen_rothenbergerproduct-view=215&rothen_rothenbergerproduct-viewing=1)

I have brazed copper up to 1-1/8 using brown tip (15%)

but if cold and in the wind one needs to shield to get to temp.


and.....darn..i missed all the fun....lots of closed threads

[Ueee]

Light bulb.......
As these units are for plumbing they mean brazing pipe up to 28mm, not solid.:doh:
Not such a big ask then. And they are not talking hard brazing, ie manganese bronze rods.

Ew

[eskimo]

Light bulb.......
As these units are for plumbing they mean brazing pipe up to 28mm, not solid.:doh:
Not such a big ask then. And they are not talking hard brazing, ie manganese bronze rods.

Ew

yep...one needs to fully evaluate what they are really saying
ok for copper pipe, but not for solid

[bob ward]

I don't know if this has been discussed previously but you can for next to nothing make an LPG torch from gal pipe and plumbing fittings. They work well for furnaces and forges, I often use mine to heat steel to red heat when case hardening with cherry red.

One downside of these torches from a brazing point of view, especially when trying to do delicate work, is that they produce a broad non-focussed flame. I haven't played with trying to focus the flame but it might be that a home made torch could be fitted with a tip to focus the flame. Its a fairly cheap experiment anyway.

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff28/sirrobertthegood/IMG_4194.jpg (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/sirrobertthegood/media/IMG_4194.jpg.html)

[shedhappens]

g/day Bob, one question, what is the thingamogocker just to the left of the ball valve ?

[cba_melbourne]

PDW said he has a Sievert Promatic which I believe is about double the price of the one I listed. The site I was looking at has all 3 brands but is in UK so I was just using it for comparison. The Sievert Promatic torch handle is dearer than the Pro 86 and does not include the nozzle or hose, just the hand piece.

I am thinking of giving the Rothenberger a try but I will have to wait for the money as I have just spent up big again, on my welder. I will save the cost within just over a year tho.

Dean


Dean, I have the Sievert Promatic too. It is a beautyful handpiece indeed, with piezo lighter at the press of a lever. The nozzles swap in a breeze by a simple 90 degree bajonet action, no fiddling with threaded nuts, no tools needed. The Promatic is all superbly well built, more like a surgical tool than a torch. The downsides are, that both the handpiece and the many available nozzles are very expensive if bought new in AU. I bought my handle with one nozzle and hose and regulator used for around $100 from eBay AU. And an additional new nozzle I found from eBay UK for about $80. Else I could not afford/justify such a top of the range LPG kit for hobby use. The gas cylinder is the same as my barbie uses. If you are not in a hurry, I would very much recommend to keep looking at eBay until a bargain pops up. In the meantime, you could go by with a cartridge Butane. I got by for 20 years with a simple cheap French Camping Gaz blowtorch, before I stumbled across the promatic kit. You did not say what you want the new torch for, that may affect recommendations.

Chris

[bob ward]

g/day Bob, one question, what is the thingamogocker just to the left of the ball valve ?

There is a 1/2" to 1" gal socket, .6mm mig tip as the LPG orifice, and air intake with adjuster. I have an adjustable LPG regulator on the gas bottle which I normally set at 10 psi. The whole thing is basically just a large bunsen burner.

[Oldneweng]

Hi Dean, a couple of weeks ago I was up at the Paskeville field days particularly looking for LPG torches. The Bullfinch agent was there & offered me the kit for $300.00 (Fifty off) I haven't bought one but you might be able to barter. I also emailed a company in Ireland who sell Bullfinch I think about $140 Australian, leaves a lot of room for postage, unfortunately 2 Emails and NO reply. (still coming Sunday?)
tinkera

At this stage I am still on for Sunday. Had a problem with the GPS tho. Got the route sorted but when I tried to connect the GPS I couldn't get it to connect properly. After about 6 emails it was decided that it needs repair. It is about 11 months old. I can still use it by manually planning a route or I can use the older one which appears to have the route copied to it. I tried that one after I had no success with the new one. I could also wing it as I don't think it will be to hard anyway.

For Bollie too.

I know the problem with not having emails returned. Been waiting weeks to hear from a solar company who sent me an email first. I don't know exactly when I sent it as it was their web based email setup and it did not send me a copy. I detest these things. I think it is so they can deny stuff cos you don't have a copy. I generally make a copy myself as text but did not this time.

Sent email to BOC re details of consumables for my new welder and a razz about the pathetic manual. Also on web composer but kept a copy. No reply yet.
Sent email as reminder the solar company.
Sent an email to local Reese store.

These 3 all on the same day.

Next day I had 3 replies from manager at Reese. One was to say he had requested the info I asked for and one to send me this info after he received it from Rothenberger. That is service. I have used this store a lot in the past and I will continue to do so. Their prices are good too.

Dean

[Oldneweng]

I have the Rothenberger

Rothenberger Australia PTY LTD - Product Catalogue (http://www.rothenberger.com.au/cgi-bin/object/catalogue.pl?mode=get_product_by_product_category&brand=Rothenberger&product_category_id=32&rothen_rothenbergerproduct-order_by=display_order&rothen_rothenbergerproduct-page=1&rothen_rothenbergerproduct-view=215&rothen_rothenbergerproduct-viewing=1)

I have brazed copper up to 1-1/8 using brown tip (15%)

but if cold and in the wind one needs to shield to get to temp.


and.....darn..i missed all the fun....lots of closed threads

Is the one you have the "Rothenberger - Contractors Propane Torch - $206"?

Shame you missed the fun.:D

Dean

[Oldneweng]

Dean, I have the Sievert Promatic too. It is a beautyful handpiece indeed, with piezo lighter at the press of a lever. The nozzles swap in a breeze by a simple 90 degree bajonet action, no fiddling with threaded nuts, no tools needed. The Promatic is all superbly well built, more like a surgical tool than a torch. The downsides are, that both the handpiece and the many available nozzles are very expensive if bought new in AU. I bought my handle with one nozzle and hose and regulator used for around $100 from eBay AU. And an additional new nozzle I found from eBay UK for about $80. Else I could not afford/justify such a top of the range LPG kit for hobby use. The gas cylinder is the same as my barbie uses. If you are not in a hurry, I would very much recommend to keep looking at eBay until a bargain pops up. In the meantime, you could go by with a cartridge Butane. I got by for 20 years with a simple cheap French Camping Gaz blowtorch, before I stumbled across the promatic kit. You did not say what you want the new torch for, that may affect recommendations.

Chris

What do I want the torch for? that is a good question. First I want it for domestic plumbing during renovations. I want to finish building a solar hot water collector. This needs ordinary plumbing silver soldering plus soft soldering copper pipes into pressed grooves in a copper sheet. I also want it for any silver soldering jobs that may come up in making stuff in the lathe/mill and maybe for hardening steel such as silver steel etc. I would like to try hardening chain saw bar steel as well. I do need to return my oxy bottle.

This is the site I was looking at Sievert Promatic Gas Blow Torch Handles and Burners (http://www.gasproducts.co.uk/acatalog/Sievert_Promatic_Torch_Handles_and_Burners.html).

About 115 pound for torch handle and medium cyclone burner. No hose/regulator with that but that is not a big issue. Still more money tho. As I already use oxy/propane I have a gas bottle besides the BBQ one. Which burners/nozzles do you use?

Dean

[Oldneweng]

I don't know if this has been discussed previously but you can for next to nothing make an LPG torch from gal pipe and plumbing fittings. They work well for furnaces and forges, I often use mine to heat steel to red heat when case hardening with cherry red.

One downside of these torches from a brazing point of view, especially when trying to do delicate work, is that they produce a broad non-focussed flame. I haven't played with trying to focus the flame but it might be that a home made torch could be fitted with a tip to focus the flame. Its a fairly cheap experiment anyway.

snip



Worth a thought Bob. I have plans to make one for a foundry anyway. As you say, need to work out the focussing of the flame.

Dean

[PDW]

PDW said he has a Sievert Promatic which I believe is about double the price of the one I listed.

I don't recall saying that, because I don't have one of those. I have oxy-acetylene gear for brazing and oxy-propane for cutting. Both the Comet 3 type torch setup with propane nozzles. The oxy-propane works fine for cutting, not sure what temperature it gets to for brazing because I've never tried. Haven't actually done any brazing in years though it's on the cards in the near future.

The biggest hassle is the cost of bottle rental. I'd rather use oxy-acetylene for everything as it has the hottest temperature (ok oxy-hydrogen is hotter) but I don't like paying $18/month per bottle for an E cylinder.

PDW

[Oldneweng]

I don't recall saying that, because I don't have one of those. I have oxy-acetylene gear for brazing and oxy-propane for cutting. Both the Comet 3 type torch setup with propane nozzles. The oxy-propane works fine for cutting, not sure what temperature it gets to for brazing because I've never tried. Haven't actually done any brazing in years though it's on the cards in the near future.

The biggest hassle is the cost of bottle rental. I'd rather use oxy-acetylene for everything as it has the hottest temperature (ok oxy-hydrogen is hotter) but I don't like paying $18/month per bottle for an E cylinder.

PDW

Well you know what that means don't you? I stuffed up again.:D Oh well someone said it. I think that is the size oxy I have. ps It is a cylinder not a bottle. (spoken quietly)

Dean

[Oldneweng]

Well you know what that means don't you? I stuffed up again.:D Oh well someone said it. I think that is the size oxy I have. ps It is a cylinder not a bottle. (spoken quietly)

Dean

That was Chris (cba) who has a Promatic.

Dean

[RayG]

I hadn't thought along the lines of using the furnace burner for brazing, but I can't see why it wouldn't work. I got a bullfinch and it works a treat for brazing small parts, for bigger parts a custom burner might be just the trick.

A few years back I went mad and made a series of normally aspirated propane burners, they were all modified version of the reil style burners, there are plenty of plans on the internet and they are easy to build and tune up. If running in free air you definitely need a flare, so maybe you could design the flare to do some focusing as well.

I've posted this picture before, with details of various burners here...http://www.woodworkforums.com/f267/casting-tools-part-2-burners-143176/#post1396253

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/Casting/21062009796.jpg

The flare is required to stop the flame from blowing itself out, the idea is to reduce the gas velocity to less than that of the flame velocity. When it's inside a furnace the flare is usually not needed..

Swap and Go gas bottles have got to be one the cheapest options around for easy heating

Regards
Ray

[PDW]

Swap and Go gas bottles have got to be one the cheapest options around for easy heating


Yeah, that's what I use. I think I've got 6 of the 9 kg size.

PDW

[cba_melbourne]

> First I want it for domestic plumbing during renovations.

Then you probably want to add one of the cyclone burners. The flame of a cyclone burner wraps itself around the pipe to be heated.

> Which burners/nozzles do you use?

My Promatic came only with the 7.5kW standard burner. Later I bought the 0.7kW pin-point burner for the finer jobs.

There are 20 different burners to suit the promatic handpiece: Sievert AB - Professional tools for soldering and other heating duties (http://www.sievert.se/default.asp?locId=1&langId=1&pageId=6&areaTypeId=1&areaId=1&subAreaId=13)

Chris

[Oldneweng]

I hadn't thought along the lines of using the furnace burner for brazing, but I can't see why it wouldn't work. I got a bullfinch and it works a treat for brazing small parts, for bigger parts a custom burner might be just the trick.

A few years back I went mad and made a series of normally aspirated propane burners, they were all modified version of the reil style burners, there are plenty of plans on the internet and they are easy to build and tune up. If running in free air you definitely need a flare, so maybe you could design the flare to do some focusing as well.

I've posted this picture before, with details of various burners here...http://www.woodworkforums.com/f267/casting-tools-part-2-burners-143176/#post1396253

snip

The flare is required to stop the flame from blowing itself out, the idea is to reduce the gas velocity to less than that of the flame velocity. When it's inside a furnace the flare is usually not needed..

Swap and Go gas bottles have got to be one the cheapest options around for easy heating

Regards
Ray

Nice writeup Ray. I will have to think about your ideas.

Re Swap and Go. They are only 8.5kg (Safety Reasons :D) They are about $30 around here. What are they in the BIG Cities? A local hardware does full 9kg fill for $22.

Dean

[Oldneweng]

> First I want it for domestic plumbing during renovations.

Then you probably want to add one of the cyclone burners. The flame of a cyclone burner wraps itself around the pipe to be heated.

> Which burners/nozzles do you use?

My Promatic came only with the 7.5kW standard burner. Later I bought the 0.7kW pin-point burner for the finer jobs.

There are 20 different burners to suit the promatic handpiece: Sievert AB - Professional tools for soldering and other heating duties (http://www.sievert.se/default.asp?locId=1&langId=1&pageId=6&areaTypeId=1&areaId=1&subAreaId=13)

Chris

The site I looked at only had seperate pieces, not kits. I was thinking about starting with the medium cyclone if I went with Sievert.

The Rothenberger is looking better at this point tho. Cheaper of the three by quite a bit and the quoted flame temp of 2200 deg C is interesting. This info came from a pdf file that was sourced from Rothenberger by our local Reece store. Anyone who would like a copy of this document which is 1.05M, just let me know. The price of $206 also was supplied by this store so I can buy it locally from a business that I have bought quite a lot of stuff from since they opened.

A discussion at the Get Together today elicited the information that a lot of plumbers use them and find them quite suitable.

Dean

[cba_melbourne]

The site I looked at only had seperate pieces, not kits. I was thinking about starting with the medium cyclone if I went with Sievert.

The Rothenberger is looking better at this point tho. Cheaper of the three by quite a bit and the quoted flame temp of 2200 deg C is interesting. This info came from a pdf file that was sourced from Rothenberger by our local Reece store. Anyone who would like a copy of this document which is 1.05M, just let me know. The price of $206 also was supplied by this store so I can buy it locally from a business that I have bought quite a lot of stuff from since they opened.

A discussion at the Get Together today elicited the information that a lot of plumbers use them and find them quite suitable.

Dean

Dean, I just downloaded the German Rothenberger catalogue, and what a surprise: Rothenberger is selling the Sievert Promatic torch. It looks absolutely identical, except that the handpiece is red color and bears the Rothenberger logo. They gave it the name "Recolt Handy Piezo System Promatic". Not sure if it is OEM Sievert, or made under license, or maybe the Sievert patent has simply expired? Look here on page 186: http://www.rothenberger.com/uploads/media/Loet-_und_Schweisstechnik.pdf

Regarding the flame temperature, that is not the whole story. What matters much more for soldering and brazing is the heat output. But 2200C sounds like a bold claim to me for a propane/air mixture torch. Are you maybe looking at a propane/oxygen torch? Have a look here for comparison: Flame temperatures (http://www.derose.net/steve/resources/engtables/flametemp.html)
Chris

[bollie7]

Re Swap and Go. They are only 8.5kg (Safety Reasons :D) They are about $30 around here. What are they in the BIG Cities? A local hardware does full 9kg fill for $22.

Dean
I went to the local servo (suburb of Newcastle) on Sat afternoon to get a cylinder and they wanted $35 exchange. Needless to say I didn't get one. I'll have to look around and find a servo that still fills your cylinder.
Masters at Maitland have swap and go for about $24 or $25

bollie7

[nearnexus]

I went to the local servo (suburb of Newcastle) on Sat afternoon to get a cylinder and they wanted $35 exchange. Needless to say I didn't get one. I'll have to look around and find a servo that still fills your cylinder.
Masters at Maitland have swap and go for about $24 or $25

bollie7

Bunnings do the Kwik Gas bottle swap for $22. I get mine there.

The bottle can be expired, no problem.

Rob

[Oldneweng]

Dean, I just downloaded the German Rothenberger catalogue, and what a surprise: Rothenberger is selling the Sievert Promatic torch. It looks absolutely identical, except that the handpiece is red color and bears the Rothenberger logo. They gave it the name "Recolt Handy Piezo System Promatic". Not sure if it is OEM Sievert, or made under license, or maybe the Sievert patent has simply expired? Look here on page 186: http://www.rothenberger.com/uploads/media/Loet-_und_Schweisstechnik.pdf

Regarding the flame temperature, that is not the whole story. What matters much more for soldering and brazing is the heat output. But 2200C sounds like a bold claim to me for a propane/air mixture torch. Are you maybe looking at a propane/oxygen torch? Have a look here for comparison: Flame temperatures (http://www.derose.net/steve/resources/engtables/flametemp.html)
Chris


Regarding the flame temperature, that is not the whole story. What matters much more for soldering and brazing is the heat output

I am aware of this but the heat output figures seem a bit thin on the ground.


But 2200C sounds like a bold claim to me

That would be why I said "the quoted flame temp of 2200 deg C is interesting".


for a propane/air mixture torch. Are you maybe looking at a propane/oxygen torch?

Hmm, er ar, actually the torch I am looking at seems to be very similar looking to the one referred to in your Rothenberger catalogue. In fact to my eye they both look identical except that neither of the pictures have enough resolution to get a clear view. It is likely that we are talking about the same torch. One of the pictures in my brochure has what appears to be "SUPER 100" on the handpiece in black on white background. The other picture (same side) has no colour and what may be "ROTHENBERGER" raised on it. The inset name spaces in the 2 pictures are also of different widths.

Dean

[Oldneweng]

Bunnings do the Kwik Gas bottle swap for $22. I get mine there.

The bottle can be expired, no problem.

Rob

$22 for 8.5 kg compared to $22 for 9kg. Hardly worth worrying about that difference. Thanks for reminding me about the expired bottle bit. I had forgotten. I have 3 bottles and 1 that has expired last year. It still looks perfect. It has been bumping around on the trailer, in the farm ute etc for many weeks lol. I put it on the trailer to take down to the metal scrap pile past the woolshed. I did not have the tailgate up. It fell off but was not noticed, due to lack of light I think. It landed next to the woolshed itself. It was noticed from afar by you know who. I used it to sit on while doing fencing next to woolshed. Back into ute then trailer. Still there.

I just this moment mentioned taking this bottle for swapping to SWMBO and she said you mean the one that has bounced around...... Anyway she also said she had seen that bottles must be within date on a Swap and Go sign at a servo. We have to go into town tonight so I will check. That will make 4 bottles. Getting them tested can be a problem around here. I also have another 1 somewhere but as it is about 40yrs old and looks it I might not bother. Off an old caravan.

Dean

[nearnexus]

Bunnings do not even look at the expiry date. All Kwik Gas distributors will take any expired gas bottle as a swap (provided it is in reasonable condition).

I believe most others are the same - expired is OK.

They retest them and generally it's only the tap/valve that needs to be replaced.

To get them re-tested yourself is a total rip off and not to be even considered.

Rob

[Oldneweng]

Bunnings do not even look at the expiry date. All Kwik Gas distributors will take any expired gas bottle as a swap (provided it is in reasonable condition).

I believe most others are the same - expired is OK.

They retest them and generally it's only the tap/valve that needs to be replaced.

To get them re-tested yourself is a total rip off and not to be even considered.

Rob

Got one tested a few years ago. Total of around $65 including a refill. Problem was that the hardware store that is associated with the testing site charges $35 for a fill. This testing is no longer available. What I was trying to get at without running off at the fingers too much was that due to the difficulty with testing, maybe locals have used the Swap and Go as a service to get bottles tested. At $30 for a test and Swap and Go prices of $35 for 8.5kg it is simply a calculation to see if you will save the $30 over 10yrs with a full 9kg fill and the best price you can get which is $22 for me. About 2 fills over 10years and I am close. Then work out 1 Swap and go at $35 and then fill at $22.

I don't believe that testing is a ripoff as it also includes an inspection and the actual pressure testing of the vessel. Added to that for me is that it used to be a local doing the test rather than someone in a massive factory situation. There are a lot of factors to consider. Maybe we don't have access to local testing anymore because most people just had Swap and Go do it for them LOL.

[cba_melbourne]

I don't believe that testing is a ripoff as it also includes an inspection and the actual pressure testing of the vessel. Added to that for me is that it used to be a local doing the test rather than someone in a massive factory situation. There are a lot of factors to consider. Maybe we don't have access to local testing anymore because most people just had Swap and Go do it for them LOL.

I think the times of actual pressure testing may be over. Today its 10 seconds on an automated ultrasonic tester. The "inspection" is just a visual, plus a coat of paint if looking too rusty, or a new valve if damaged. If too old and rusty to be swapped, just buy a new cylinder when they are on sale. Did I see cylinders at Aldi a while ago?

[nearnexus]

I think the times of actual pressure testing may be over. Today its 10 seconds on an automated ultrasonic tester. The "inspection" is just a visual, plus a coat of paint if looking too rusty, or a new valve if damaged. If too old and rusty to be swapped, just buy a new cylinder when they are on sale. Did I see cylinders at Aldi a while ago?

A few years ago you would see any number of expired gas bottles put out on junk day. Hard to get rid of. Scrap merchants won't take them.

Now you don't see any.

Why? Probably because the expiry has no bearing on a swap over now.

It's probably a good thing in my estimation, as it helps get the unsafe stuff out of circulation.

Rob

[Oldneweng]

A few years ago you would see any number of expired gas bottles put out on junk day. Hard to get rid of. Scrap merchants won't take them.

Now you don't see any.

Why? Probably because the expiry has no bearing on a swap over now.

It's probably a good thing in my estimation, as it helps get the unsafe stuff out of circulation.

Rob

That is true. It used to be rare to see anyone check for a date.

I was also under the impression that a new valve was fitted at each inspection or has this gone by the wayside as well?

Our car gas cylinder was tested when fitted to our old wagon as we supplied it out of the previous vehicle. That was during the full on AutoGas install period. Only standard type cylinders were being made as the factories were flat out and couldn't keep up with demand. We already had a manifold type multi cylinder but it was about a year off 10 years so it was tested. When was the last time someone looked at the test date on these cylinders? This test was done locally, when this was still available.

At the time the cylinder was over half full. I could not get the gas out. No matter what I tried. The cylinder had safety valves that shut down as soon as the flow got above a certain point. The AutoGas fitter had to unscrew one of the units mounted to the cylinder (with screws) to allow the gas out. The reason I mention this situation is that the car that cylinder was fitted to is now unused and it is about 3/4 full. About 45 litres which would be about 22.5kg. Maybe I should just use this cylinder to run the gas torch untill it is empty. Not very portable tho. Put wheels on it?

I checked at the servo tonight and found nothing to say expired cylinders cannot be returned. SWMBO thinks she misread it. All good there. However!! The price to swap a cylinder here is $38.95. WOW! That is $4.58 per kilo compared to $2.44 at the hardware we go to and $1.50 at the AutoGas pump. This last is illegal by the way. I would never do that. Emptying an unusable AutoGas cylinder is different tho :rolleyes:.

Dean

[WelderMick]

Or as an alternative, build a jet engine based on a truck turbo charger and tweak it up to burn waste oil - that way you get to make lots of noise as well as funny smells. Check out this one... start at about half way through the video.

Jet engine home made DIY with after burner - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyZRQ1btI6A)

[Oldneweng]

Or as an alternative, build a jet engine based on a truck turbo charger and tweak it up to burn waste oil - that way you get to make lots of noise as well as funny smells. Check out this one... start at about half way through the video.

Jet engine home made DIY with after burner - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyZRQ1btI6A)

And perhaps you could help me out with a procedure to solder 1/2 inch copper pipes in my bathroom wall with such a torch!:D

Dean

[nearnexus]

I used the Bullfinch on a project today, which shows what it does best.

Light gauge hard bronzing.

I had to decoke the blower exhaust port, then found that the metal heat shield for the muffler had a fatigue crack almost right across it.

Hard bronzed that up, and then I got carried away and made up a cover for the blower intake. The original cover got busted decades ago.

It had a habit of sucking in my shirt tail and chewing it up.

Anyway, here's a snap of the job, each weld on the mesh to vertical support took about 30 seconds max.

292036292037

Be difficult to do that with arc.

Cheers

Rob

[Oldneweng]

I thought I would finally report on the Rothenberger Gas Torch I was considering.

The Oxy cylinder has been returned and the final account has been settled.

When I tried to purchase the Gas Torch there was some problems with Reese Plumbing finding that model. It turns out that it is no longer available in Oz. Back to the net. I had a difficult time in finding a supplier that ticked all the boxes. The main one being that they would deliver to Oz. Most were in England. I found a supplier that looked as tho they would come to the party. Trade Counter Direct. When I got to the checkout I got a message that they could not send this item to Oz due to its size. Damn. Must be a mistake. It is not very big. I sent an email and received a reply asking me to try again as the woman who was emailing me had corrected the issue. All fixed. The postage was pretty high but the total price was still way below what I would have paid here from Reese Plumbing.

I had a quick test of the torch when I received it, but today I tried it out a bit more. I was thinking of casting an aluminium piece to replace the plastic pivoting table on my electric chainsaw sharpener. I want a bit less flex. I got my steel crucible (pipe) and a chunk of ali and managed to melt it (the Ali). Not all of it together tho. I was only using the uninsulated crucible sitting on the shed floor. It would not melt brass tho. There was a ring of brass pipe with thread stuck to the bottom of the crucible from my one and only try at foundry work. Got to get back to it. I guess I should make another crucible for Ali.

317709

This is an ingot(?) of aluminium that I melted by pointing the torch into the crucible. It is poured into a large fruit tin (100mm diam?), about 12mm thick on the edge visible, about 8mm most of the width and a bit thinner on the bottom left. This was just a try out to see what the torch could do.


317710

The torch adjusted to max, but just idling (pilot light). The pressure was set to 250 kpa.

317711

The same setting but at full revs.

317712

The knob on the top adjusts the gas flow and so final flame size.

The smaller knob on the side adjusts the idle speed. This can be used wide open.

The trigger opens the smaller knob setting to full on. So the torch can be set to idle (pilot light) until you need the heat, then pulling the trigger will give full heat straight away.

The nozzle end is about 18mm diameter. It certainly appears to pack some punch.

Dean

[bollie7]

Dean
I've been thinking about a good torch like this for a while as well, but due to house renos etc its been put on the back burner (pun intended)
What was the final, all up, cost to get this torch to your door?
thanks
bollie7

[nearnexus]

Interesting torch Dean.

Final cost?

Also lets see it hard bronze brazing.

Cheers

Rob

[Oldneweng]

Dean
I've been thinking about a good torch like this for a while as well, but due to house renos etc its been put on the back burner (pun intended)
What was the final, all up, cost to get this torch to your door?
thanks
bollie7

From memory it was about £140. I did not check the oz value. About half was freight. Delivery was quick.

Dean

[Oldneweng]

Interesting torch Dean.

Final cost?

Also lets see it hard bronze brazing.

Cheers

Rob

See previous post lol.

Hard bronze brazing? Explain to an amateur please. I have normal brazing rods and I will try brazing tonight.

The nozzle supplied is a large one. Other sizes are available, but I gave up looking. I would send an email to source other nozzles.

Dean

[Oldneweng]

Dean
I've been thinking about a good torch like this for a while as well, but due to house renos etc its been put on the back burner (pun intended)
What was the final, all up, cost to get this torch to your door?
thanks
bollie7

Another point. I used house reno as justification for having the oxy cylinder in the first place, and replacing it with this torch. Plumbing! Our place is not connected to outside water so I do my own plumbing.

Dean

[nearnexus]

See previous post lol.

Hard bronze brazing? Explain to an amateur please. I have normal brazing rods and I will try brazing tonight.

The nozzle supplied is a large one. Other sizes are available, but I gave up looking. I would send an email to source other nozzles.

Dean

I meant GP bronze rods, not that low temp stuff for copper pipe.

Rob

[Oldneweng]

I meant GP bronze rods, not that low temp stuff for copper pipe.

Rob

Ok. I have both and will try both, but the brazing will be the test.

Dean

[RayG]

Ok. I have both and will try both, but the brazing will be the test.

Dean

I'd be interested in seeing how that Rothenberger unit compares with the Bullfinch 404, both from a cost point of view and performance. The Bullfinch was £89.15 plus Shipping was £35.00 Total: £124.15

Did you find the UK bottle fittings different? The Australian POL thread is different to the UK 5/8 LH BSP

Ray

[nearnexus]

I'd be interested in seeing how that Rothenberger unit compares with the Bullfinch 404, both from a cost point of view and performance. The Bullfinch was £89.15 plus Shipping was £35.00 Total: £124.15

Did you find the UK bottle fittings different? The Australian POL thread is different to the UK 5/8 LH BSP

Ray

Hey Ray, how come your Bullfinch is a 404, and mine is a 4100 ?

What's the difference ?

Edit. Looks like just a sales pitch for the same unit. Same 4100 handle and 4104 burner tip etc, just sold as a 404 (kit?) I suppose.

I tried to check EH Cambridge to see what they call them now, but the page doesn't load.

Had mine so long I can't remember what it was sold as.

Rob

[RayG]

Hey Ray, how come your Bullfinch is a 404, and mine is a 4100 ?

What's the difference ?

Edit. Looks like just a sales pitch for the same unit. Same 4100 handle and 4104 burner tip etc, just sold as a 404 (kit?) I suppose.

I tried to check EH Cambridge to see what they call them now, but the page doesn't load.

Had mine so long I can't remember what it was sold as.

Rob

Hi Rob,

I remember looking at that, they are the same thing, the 404 is the kit number which contains the 4100 handle, 4104 tip etc..

http://www.gasproducts.co.uk/acatalog/Bullfinch_404_Autotorch_Brazing_Gas_Blow_Torch_Kit.html

The EH Cambridge page doesn't load for me either?

Ray

[nearnexus]

Be really interesting to see how Dean's unit goes with GP rod.

Rob

[Oldneweng]

I'd be interested in seeing how that Rothenberger unit compares with the Bullfinch 404, both from a cost point of view and performance. The Bullfinch was £89.15 plus Shipping was £35.00 Total: £124.15

Did you find the UK bottle fittings different? The Australian POL thread is different to the UK 5/8 LH BSP

Ray

It appears that my memory was a bit off:rolleyes:, after less than one day.

The torch kit was (Damn, my phone has the Pound symbol!) £67.54 (copied Ray's :D) Freight was £34.00 and the total was £101.53. (Say What :?? I saved £0.01)

This kit does not come with a regulator with it so a separate one is required. I am using the regulator that came with my Oxy/LPG kit which means I have full pressure adjustment and a gauge. The hose went straight on.

It did not do as well as I expected with the brazing rod. What I found is that it was hard to concentrate the heat in the right area. The end of the nozzle is 20mm internal diameter. The flame spreads out from this. This gives a large area of heating.

317783

The silver soldering on 3/4 copper was fine, as expected.

The 2 rods are about 6mm diameter. They brazed together ok, but this only used 1 edge of the flame. A smaller concentrated flame would be much easier.

I am wondering if it would be feasible to make a nozzle? I have seen tips listed for this torch, but I cannot find them.

Dean

I realised the last sentence did not read as intended.

I have seen illustrations of nozzles purported to be for this torch, but have been unable to find them since. I think that was when I first started looking at this torch.

[nearnexus]

It did not do as well as I expected with the brazing rod. What I found is that it was hard to concentrate the heat in the right area. The end of the nozzle is 20mm internal diameter. The flame spreads out from this. This gives a large area of heating.

Dean



Hi Dean,

This is half what I expected.

Lots of guns have lots of output, but it's not concentrated enough to be useful - for hard brazing.

That's why the Bullfinch is in a class of it's own.

I chatted with the EH Cambridge demonstrator at the field days about other guns, and they had tested many, but only the Bullfinch really did the job in their estimation.

In the video below where I demonstrate the unit, it does the brazing job in a little over 30 seconds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGwKuYP-RNo

Rob

[Oldneweng]

I think I may have cracked it.

http://www.rothenberger.com/en/products/-/324-airac-brazing-torch-/

Different name. Although the link says brazing torch, and the heading on the page does also, this is a link to a brazing nozzle listing.

Their website is not very user friendly and this seems to carry over to their stockists.

These nozzles are available in 12mm, 18mm and 28 mm diameter which presumably are the ones pictured, because there is also a fourth picture showing 5 different sizes. :?

Dean