teacher needs help

[sundaycampers]

Hi,
Thank you for taking the time to look at my post.

I am a relief teacher and believe it or not woodwork is not my speciality.

I am having trouble with an assignment given to students as they are complaining it is too hard. I would like to ask, if given the information provided, you can achieve the objectives, which are as follows.

A completed diagram for me to reference would be good.

The detailed plan is the attachment.

Info provided:

Wind Class. N2
Roof pitch 22.5 deg.
Eave width 600mm, eaves tied back to wall frame
Metal sheet roof mass = 10kg/m2
Rafter space 600mm
F7 seasoned softwood roof members
Underpurlin size 2/70 x 45 Ceiling joist 90 x 45 @600 centres
Brick veneer wall 110mm brick, 50mmcavity and 90mm frame.

What’s required?

On the drawing provided, draw in
The underpurlin position including measurement from to inside of wall,

underpurlin span distance between walls and between hip rafters.

The position of struts, perpendicular and fan.

The position of strutting beams, counter strutting beams and strutting hanging beams as required

The position of all hanging beams

Indicate span and direction of ceiling joists

Hopefully we have some old style builders or carpenters out there

Any help greatly appreciated
Mike291808

[CMB]

Can you please ellaborate in regards to who you are teaching (eg age and schooling level)?

Craig

[_fly_]

Or are you a student trying to get his assignment done for him?
Surely the Boss at the school could put you in touch with another permanent teacher at another school, if your just a relief one.

[doug3030]

Or are you a student trying to get his assignment done for him?
Surely the Boss at the school could put you in touch with another permanent teacher at another school, if your just a relief one.


That's what I was thinking....

Cheers

Doug

[BobL]

If the OP is telling the truth what I find farcical about this is why unqualified teachers are put into these relief positions.
We might as well send the garbos in to relieve the surgeons, or the surgeons out to build a couple of bridges, or any spare engineers to fill in for a couple of chefs.
Typical educational authority mismanagement in my book.

[doug3030]

If the OP is telling the truth what I find farcical about this is why unqualified teachers are put into these relief positions.
We might as well send the garbos in to relieve the surgeons, or the surgeons out to build a couple of bridges, or any spare engineers to fill in for a couple of chefs.
Typical educational authority mismanagement in my book.

But what I noticed is that the OP isn't asking the question like a teacher trying to answer students' questions.

What he has asked for is for us to solve the problem, not to help him explain what to do to get to the answers, which is what his "students" if he has any, would be wanting to know, since they claim it is too hard for them.

Just showing them a completed drawing is not going to help them understand.

Thats why I think its the student asking for someone to do his homework for free.

DOug

EDIT: What a way to waste my 1000th forum post :((

(well actually probably 1100 if you count the ones the mods got :D )

[sundaycampers]

[QUOTE=doug3030;1712902]But what I noticed is that the OP isn't asking the question like a teacher trying to answer students' questions.

What he has asked for is for us to solve the problem, not to help him explain what to do to get to the answers, which is what his "students" if he has any, would be wanting to know, since they claim it is too hard for them.





I'll try this again. Yes I could have gone to another school for answers. I was hoping to educate myself a little in an area I have little to do with. ie: Hoping for a number of opinions and designs. The assignment is for senior high school elective.I hope I am past doing assignments for myself at 45. one reply in particularis a beut. I am asking thequestion as it is Asked of them, how elsedo I get the same outcome. If you can't or won't help I still appreciate your time. I do hope however that if a student who is looking for a career in woodwork does approach woodwork forum you would help them, regardless of motive. I thought that was what it was about.

[RETIRED]

This is a bona fide teacher asking your help. I have spoken to him on the phone.

The way that the Education Dept works (DAMHIK) is that they put Temp teachers in any position to keep the system going, e.g. my B.I.L was an arts teacher that had to teach English when the original got sick.

He was recommended to come here for help and you lot hang it on him.

So, cut the bloke some slack and if you can't be nice, don't answer.:((

[CMB]

Can you please ellaborate in regards to who you are teaching (eg age and schooling level)?

Craig

sundaycampers, reason I queried schooling level is that the assignment suggests the students should already have some familiarity with and access to the relevant standards required in order to answer the questions. In other words, it could be considered reasonably advanced, especially for senior high school .

Craig.

[doug3030]

Hi Sundaycampers,

If your request is indeed genuine, please accept my apology for my reply. I still fail to see how one of us completing the assignment will help you to help the students, who really should be more interested in the method rather than the end result.

But if this is a senior high school elective, then these days they are probably just "teaching to the test" and not seeking real understanding so what you ask is probably feasible.

I dont build houses and cant give the required answers to the question.

As to:


I do hope however that if a student who is looking for a career in woodwork does approach woodwork forum you would help them, regardless of motive. I thought that was what it was about.

Yes, if someone had presented us with the problem you did and identified himself as a student seeking help to solve it, I have no doubt that one of the forum members with the necessary experience would have helped that student find the answers. I would be disappointed inf they just solved the problem instead of helping the student solve the problem himself, and that is what the forum is all about, as you say. Just as I often help other forum members when I can. :2tsup:

I hope someone with the right knowledge helps you.

Cheers

Doug :2tsup:

[Bedford]

Hopefully we have some old style builders or carpenters out there

Any help greatly appreciated


You might get more help posting in the Structural forum here, STRUCTURAL RENOVATION (http://www.renovateforum.com/f76/)

on Renovate Forums (http://www.renovateforum.com/forum.php)

[sundaycampers]

Hi Sundaycampers,

If your request is indeed genuine, please accept my apology for my reply. I still fail to see how one of us completing the assignment will help you to help the students, who really should be more interested in the method rather than the end result.

But if this is a senior high school elective, then these days they are probably just "teaching to the test" and not seeking real understanding so what you ask is probably feasible.

I dont build houses and cant give the required answers to the question.

As to:



Yes, if someone had presented us with the problem you did and identified himself as a student seeking help to solve it, I have no doubt that one of the forum members with the necessary experience would have helped that student find the answers. I would be disappointed inf they just solved the problem instead of helping the student solve the problem himself, and that is what the forum is all about, as you say. Just as I often help other forum members when I can. :2tsup:

I hope someone with the right knowledge helps you.

Cheers

Doug :2tsup: I don't think you realise the wealth of knowledge held within the combined forum group. As teachers we think we know it all and then we are stuffed into a position where we truly know nothing. I will not identify myself fully or the school system I work for. My students tell me this is too hard and correctly I wish to know how it works but was looking at it from a work backwards point of view. I will continue to ask questions in my 6 month tenure and am sure you will hate me by then. I have discovered Australian standards as suggested by another member. This should help

[Scott]

I don't think you realise the wealth of knowledge held within the combined forum group.

Yes, we do have a wealth of knowledge however most of them are curmudgeonly. Good luck with finding the answer, I wish I could help you.

[rwbuild]

Having spent 5 years teaching carpentry and joinery at a TAFE, I can assure you that this is 2nd & 3rd year apprentice level and to have such a question at high school does raise some questions.

The information given and the questions to be answered require quite a lot of preliminary topics to be covered as well as having access to BCA and Australian standards not to mention the stress grade of the timber being used.

The students are correct, it is too hard and to expect a relief teacher (who does not have the specific skills or knowledge of the subject) to step in and do it justice says a lot about the education system and its management/administration.

If you choose to persist, I strongly recommend that you approach the head teacher of building at your nearest TAFE and get their help. They can give you all the notes and info required as well as 1 on 1 coaching of the subject matter which is within the education system and is recognized and approved.

[BobL]

Now that it appears the OP question has been answered I assume we can discuss the general principles involved with this case?


. . .The way that the Education Dept works (DAMHIK) is that they put Temp teachers in any position to keep the system going, e.g. my B.I.L was an arts teacher that had to teach English when the original got sick.


While I have a lot of sympathy for the position OP, I am most surprised unqualified teachers are permitted to run manual arts classes, because we are not talking about arts or english. What happens if a student injures themselves? I'll bet the student's lawyers will be swarming like flies around a honey pot over it. In the 1970's I was a WA Education Dept Physics teacher and took a number of relief classes for the manual arts dept in the same school. Whenever I took manual arts relief classes, even I was interested in taking the classes because most of the time the students were only using hand tools, it was always private study time because I was told by the School Deputy I was not qualified to teach that subject. Maybe things have changed but if so I am surprised given how OHS concious and litigious things have become. Interestingly the reverse was not the case and a social studies teacher was allowed to teach science classes and during one class mixed the wrong chemicals together and we had to get the Police bomb squad out in their bomb disposal gear to clear the buildings and take away the impending disaster. Nothing happened about this and the teacher was allowed to continue teaching science - thankfully he did give up running all but the simplest of experiments and resorted to the highly inspiration instructional mode of chalk and talk.

Anyway, it does not matter what the subject is, simply possessing the answers or solutions to a complicate set of questions and just relaying these to the students is as useful as tits on the usual - its equivalent to having the book with the answers in the back i.e. it does not show how the answer was arrived, at or all the fine nuances or valuable learning possibilities involved.
How will a teacher who is not qualified know how to handle the following
- Like any complicated problem, there are probably several different ways of tackling the problem and this may even lead to different valid answers.
- Presumably some marks are awarded for effort - how will these be allocated?
- In a related manner to the former student may well have the correct approach but just did the mathematics wrong in the final step - does that student then get zero?
These are just some of the reasons why we should have qualified teachers.

[doug3030]

Bob, what you are saying is exactly what I was thinking when I made my earlier posts on this thread.

I reiterate that we are a helpful lot on here but I do feel that responding to this is opening a huge can of worms.

The OP said that "woodwork is not my specialty". Well, while there is certainly some "wood" involved in the answer, it is really a big ask on whether this is woodwork or engineering.

If this is what is being taught in high school, I do wonder what was taught as a precursor. Was it being taught just to let the students know that there is a boundary not to cross until you have the knowledge?

As Rwbuild said, this is second or third year apprenticeship stuff. Surely it is unreasonable to ask someone without those qualifications even attempt to discuss this with students at any level below this? It seems that everyone, including the students and the relief teacher are at least a year shy of the experience to answer the question.

The OP should push this one back to his superiors before it wastes any more of his or his students' time

Cheers

Doug

[CMB]

What an unfortunate welcome and introduction sundaycampers has been offered here.

I commend the bloke for asking for help and persisting with his query following what I see as unwarranted accusations and character assassination. It's disappointing that his OP has now developed in to a hijacked thread aimed at the education system as a whole, with a hint of back peddling by some that launched the initial attack.

Perhaps those that wish to tackle broader topics within the education system should start a new thread as opposed to shooting down someone that has made a valid attempt to seek assistance. To those with first hand experience, your insights are appreciated, but perhaps not here if they are not immediately relevant. It's interesting how a slow down of meaty topics on the forum seem to result in these types of misdirected outbursts.

His OP may have been worded in an easily misinterpreted manner, but we all make the odd typo, or unintentionally phrase things in regrettable ways.

I hope that when my kids reach high school, teachers like sundaycampers are in abundance when a resourcing gap needs to be filled. I'd rather they learn how to learn rather than be taught to throw in the towel when the challenge appears too great.

Best of luck with your tenure sundaycampers, and hopefully your future experiences on the forum are a bit more pleasant.

Craig.

[Scott]

Very well written CMB (Craig). I often lament new arrivals who are met with derision and suspicion. Some people really need to pull their pants up in this regard.

[CAG]

Coming from a qualified IA teacher (currently teaching) and Bachelor of Engineering (Civil), this assignment is ridiculous. Which Board of Studies course is it from? Cert II Construction would not require it and neither would Industrial Technology Timber.

I would do as suggested by the other respondents above and tactfully have someone in authority at your school (Head Teacher, Principal) look at the assignment in the context of the students' coursework to date and the available theory / texts that have been prescribed / used. I think the students were right to question the difficulty / validity of the assignment.

You have been put in a position that is unfair on both you and your students. I hope that you can resolve this situation to the satisfaction of all. Perhaps it could be an opportunity to bring in a local builder and/or make it a non-assessable, group project?

Craig

[CAG]

If the OP is telling the truth what I find farcical about this is why unqualified teachers are put into these relief positions.
We might as well send the garbos in to relieve the surgeons, or the surgeons out to build a couple of bridges, or any spare engineers to fill in for a couple of chefs.
Typical educational authority mismanagement in my book.

Hey, I can cook!!!

[sundaycampers]

After a long and stressful Sunday this OP believes that he has managed to work a suitable answer. I have managed to read and understand the relevant standards enough to produce a suitable answer. While I appreciate your conversation we didn't get along to a suitable answer or even a suggestion of an answer. The forum has thrown up some interesting points regarding the state of teaching and in the end I am only here through rather tragic circumstance and the lack of trained teachers. I wish you all well and hope you will get involved in my future postings.