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planemaker
1st December 2013, 02:33 PM
Hi all. I got some time in the workshop yesterday & this morning to do a bit more work done on the new backsaw build. Was able to complete all the required shaping to the handle, including flat sanding of the saw bolts flush, and 3 coats of amber shellac. I will leave the shellac to harden overnight then give the handle a light sand with 1200 grit. So far I have been quite impressed with the qualities shown in the handle wood used, Burdekin Plum.

Here's the before shots.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/jarrah%20backsaw/Burdekin%20Plum%20handle/DSC_0063_zpsa9948930.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/jarrah%20backsaw/Burdekin%20Plum%20handle/DSC_0063_zpsa9948930.jpg.html)

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/jarrah%20backsaw/Burdekin%20Plum%20handle/DSC_0064_zps26383dd9.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/jarrah%20backsaw/Burdekin%20Plum%20handle/DSC_0064_zps26383dd9.jpg.html)

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/jarrah%20backsaw/Burdekin%20Plum%20handle/DSC_0066_zps621d7056.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/jarrah%20backsaw/Burdekin%20Plum%20handle/DSC_0066_zps621d7056.jpg.html)

Stewie;

scrounger
1st December 2013, 04:47 PM
very nice, will look great all fitted up to the blade

Simplicity
1st December 2013, 05:07 PM
Hi Stewie
That looks fantastic love the timber
Do you know we're I could some in Melbourne
Not sure with the orientation on the saw plate tho
Or am I missing something
Matt

KlausK
1st December 2013, 06:31 PM
Hi Stewie,

when you showed me a pic of this wood a few days ago, I knew that it would become a greast saw handle. It looks very dense, hard and heavy. Generally I like heavy handle woods since they improve the balance of most of the saws.

The craftsmanship is top notch as usual so it isn't a surprise that this handle looks absolutely beautiful. You did it good to make sure that the blade slot is deep enough that the rear screw will do it's job right.

BTW, did you experience any allergic problems with the plum? Plum is one of the woods that still hurts me a lot.

Cheers
Klaus

DSEL74
1st December 2013, 07:10 PM
Hi Stewie
That looks fantastic love the timber
Do you know we're I could some in Melbourne
Not sure with the orientation on the saw plate tho
Or am I missing something
Matt


I don't think that is the actual saw plate Matt, It is just a jig so he can hold it and get the finish on the handle (shellac) and not all over the real blade and spine.

RayG
1st December 2013, 07:27 PM
Nice one Stewie,

I like the crisp clean lines, and especially the nice stable triangular spacing for the screws, should be a very nice feeling saw to use. What are you planning on doing for the blade?

What is that tool in the background that looks like a circular float? Can't recall seeing one before?

Regards
Ray

DSEL74
1st December 2013, 08:01 PM
Nice one Stewie,

I like the crisp clean lines, and especially the nice stable triangular spacing for the screws, should be a very nice feeling saw to use. What are you planning on doing for the blade?

What is that tool in the background that looks like a circular float? Can't recall seeing one before?

Regards
Ray


I think it is a round Iwasaki file.

RayG
1st December 2013, 08:22 PM
I think it is a round Iwasaki file.

Hi Dale,

Ahh.. got it.. Dieter Schmid - Fine Tools (http://www.fine-tools.com/cgi-bin/shop/fronten/shop_main.cgi?func=scartshow&wkid=63907106598380&input=1&nocache=1385889590) thanks for the pointer.

Looks interesting, as do some of the other Iwasaki files. :)

So, over to Stewie, how do you like it?

Regards
Ray

Simplicity
1st December 2013, 08:24 PM
Hi Stewie
Could you please explain the mark out lines in your fist shot.If that's ok please
I notice they cross the handle completely ?
Matt

planemaker
1st December 2013, 09:07 PM
Hi Stewie,

when you showed me a pic of this wood a few days ago, I knew that it would become a greast saw handle. It looks very dense, hard and heavy. Generally I like heavy handle woods since they improve the balance of most of the saws.

The craftsmanship is top notch as usual so it isn't a surprise that this handle looks absolutely beautiful. You did it good to make sure that the blade slot is deep enough that the rear screw will do it's job right.

BTW, did you experience any allergic problems with the plum? Plum is one of the woods that still hurts me a lot.

Cheers
Klaus

Thanks Klaus. I had a very good mentor indeed. No issues to mention with the plum wood dust. That's not to say sensitivity would not arise if I were to continually use plum wood over a long period of time. I should really be more careful when working with some types of wood. :doh:

Stewie;

planemaker
1st December 2013, 09:10 PM
I don't think that is the actual saw plate Matt, It is just a jig so he can hold it and get the finish on the handle (shellac) and not all over the real blade and spine.

Your right Dale. Its also used so the saw bolts can be nipped up tight prior to flat sanding them flush to the handle.

Stewie;

DSEL74
1st December 2013, 09:23 PM
Hi Stewie
That looks fantastic love the timber
Do you know we're I could some in Melbourne
Not sure with the orientation on the saw plate tho
Or am I missing something
Matt


I'm going to take a guess here, One is where the saw plate slot finishes, The other is aligned with the top flat on the tote and the third is where stewie files the groove to shape the bottom lambs tongue. So they would be his setup lines to layout his geometry.




Ray, Klaus also uses the Iwasaki files in a medium grade foe his initial shaping process.


Hope I'm getting this all correct which means I am absorbing the info and learning!!!

Simplicity
1st December 2013, 09:36 PM
I think your right there Dale
They do all corespondent with the finished handle
But we could be wrong But I doubt it

Sawdust Maker
1st December 2013, 09:40 PM
nice handle

looking forward to see the saw

planemaker
1st December 2013, 09:49 PM
Nice one Stewie,

I like the crisp clean lines, and especially the nice stable triangular spacing for the screws, should be a very nice feeling saw to use. What are you planning on doing for the blade?

What is that tool in the background that looks like a circular float? Can't recall seeing one before?

Regards
Ray

Hi Ray. Its an 8mm Iwasaki File. I find its great for doing those fairly tight inside curves. Leaves a very clean finish. I also use the Iwasaki side & edge floats for cleaning out the hardback mortise. Unlike the normal planemaker floats, the cutting teeth on these are quite high in tpi. They are real nice to use. With the saw blade it will end up being at 11 to 12 inches in length, 14 tpi.

Stewie;

planemaker
1st December 2013, 09:55 PM
I'm going to take a guess here, One is where the saw plate slot finishes, The other is aligned with the top flat on the tote and the third is where stewie files the groove to shape the bottom lambs tongue. So they would be his setup lines to layout his geometry.




Ray, Klaus also uses the Iwasaki files in a medium grade foe his initial shaping process.


Hope I'm getting this all correct which means I am absorbing the info and learning!!!

Your heading towards perfect score on guessing Dale. Kudos. Now if you wanted to determine the hang angle of the handle to the saw plate, Isaac illustrates the procedure very well on his website.

Concerning hang angles and saw handles | Blackburn Tools (http://www.blackburntools.com/blog/concerning-hang-angles-and-saw-handles/)

Stewie;

planemaker
1st December 2013, 09:57 PM
nice handle

looking forward to see the saw

Thanks Nick.

DSEL74
1st December 2013, 10:31 PM
Your heading towards perfect score on guessing Dale. Kudos. Now if you wanted to determine the hang angle of the handle to the saw plate, Isaac illustrates the procedure very well on his website.

Concerning hang angles and saw handles | Blackburn Tools (http://www.blackburntools.com/blog/concerning-hang-angles-and-saw-handles/)

Stewie;


Bit hard to estimate but I'm going to go with 23 Deg Hang angle. Using the inside curve of the handle as the base line axis

planemaker
1st December 2013, 10:41 PM
Bit hard to estimate but I'm going to go with 23 Deg Hang angle. Using the inside curve of the handle as the base line axis

:no:

DSEL74
1st December 2013, 11:06 PM
:no:


I said it wasn't easy to estimate…….Trying to be a bit more scientific about it, some place around 33-38Deg? The hump in the rear of the handle makes it hard as it is different to the inside curve. If you drew the line down the midle of the tote you want me to work to I might have a better chance.
295599



Wait a minute…….did you just give me homework???:~

DSEL74
2nd December 2013, 12:12 PM
C'mon Stewie, you left me hanging!!

Isaac S
4th December 2013, 11:08 PM
C'mon Stewie, you left me hanging!!


I would guess that he is referencing the way I measure the hang angle, which is by drawing a line through the back of the handle, which is where the palm of your hand applies the force to the saw.

296060


So far as I know, there is no universally accepted definition of hang angle, so I more or less made up a lot of this as I went along. It made sense to me when I wrote it; we'll see if it works for others.

planemaker
5th December 2013, 12:16 AM
I would guess that he is referencing the way I measure the hang angle, which is by drawing a line through the back of the handle, which is where the palm of your hand applies the force to the saw.

296060


So far as I know, there is no universally accepted definition of hang angle, so I more or less made up a lot of this as I went along. It made sense to me when I wrote it; we'll see if it works for others.


Hi Isaac. Your understanding on how the hang angle is measured is no different to mine. The only difference being I reference the line through the center of the grip, and not from the back. There would still be little variation between the 2 resulting measurements. IMO

Stewie;

hiroller
5th December 2013, 04:31 AM
I thought it was a trick question!
Won't the hang angle also be impacted by the cant of the blade?
Dale has estimated it from the spine line as that is all he has in the photo of the handle.
A couple of degrees of cant will add a couple more to the hang angle - and it hasn't been built yet!

Isaac S
5th December 2013, 06:04 AM
Won't the hang angle also be impacted by the cant of the blade?
Dale has estimated it from the spine line as that is all he has in the photo of the handle.
A couple of degrees of cant will add a couple more to the hang angle - and it hasn't been built yet!

The hang angle that really matters is the one between the handle and the toothline, since that is where the cutting happens.


296066


In the picture above, I call the angle between the handle and the teeth the primary hang angle, and the angle between the handle and the spine the secondary hang angle. These are the same when the saw has no cant.

Take that uncanted saw, and fix the blade in relation to the handle. To add cant, you can either remove material from the bottom or top of the blade. The former method changes the primary hang angle (the drawing below shows this); the latter changes the secondary hang angle.


296067



In the end, the effects are usually pretty small (but it looks good, and discussion of it is suitable filler material for a blog entry (http://www.blackburntools.com/blog/i-just-cant-stop-myself-yet-more-discussion-of-hang/)).

Ron Bontz
5th December 2013, 06:45 AM
Yep, yep, yep. Just my humble opinion. But I concur with Issac. I measure all my hang angles the same way. Always from the tooth line. The spine is of no consequence, other than visual effect, and varies according to cant. Even then it is only a few degrees.

planemaker
5th December 2013, 10:19 AM
Yep, yep, yep. Just my humble opinion. But I concur with Issac. I measure all my hang angles the same way. Always from the tooth line. The spine is of no consequence, other than visual effect, and varies according to cant. Even then it is only a few degrees.

By jimminy cricket. Its great to see your comments on this forum Ron. Now we have the full contingent of modern saw making knowledge contributing to this forum.

Stewie;:2tsup::2tsup:

DSEL74
5th December 2013, 10:22 AM
Yep, yep, yep. Just my humble opinion. But I concur with Issac. I measure all my hang angles the same way. Always from the tooth line. The spine is of no consequence, other than visual effect, and varies according to cant. Even then it is only a few degrees.


Ron, Can we share your Pink Ivory saws here with the forum???

planemaker
5th December 2013, 10:30 AM
Ron, Can we share your Pink Ivory saws here with the forum???

Looking at the timing of Rons Pink Ivory post, and your request, Ron was 3 hours ahead of you Dale. :?

Stewie;

RayG
5th December 2013, 10:52 AM
So far as I know, there is no universally accepted definition of hang angle, so I more or less made up a lot of this as I went along. It made sense to me when I wrote it; we'll see if it works for others.

Hi Isaac,

I agree with your definition of hang angle, there was a study done by Bob Brode, years ago where he measured hang angles and published the results on his website, the web site has long since vanished into the mists of time, and I can't find my copy of that survey he did.... I'll keep looking and maybe it will turn up.

In addition to the angle of the grip relative to the tooth line, there is another variable, and that is the height of the center of the grip from the tooth line. IanW likes his saws to have the grip center close to the tooth line, and this arrangement also interacts with the height of the work. With the work higher, the lower hang angles work best.

As a general rule of thumb, the hang angle gets lower as the length of the saw increases..

Anyone got a copy of that Bob Brode hang angle survey?

Regards
Ray

Isaac S
5th December 2013, 10:57 AM
These pictures?

296080 296081

DSEL74
5th December 2013, 11:01 AM
Looking at the timing of Rons Pink Ivory post, and your request, Ron was 3 hours ahead of you Dale. :?

Stewie;


I had seen it over on another forum & thought it would be nice for some of the guys to see Rons work. I saw the post here after I had mentioned it.

DSEL74
5th December 2013, 11:10 AM
Hi Isaac,

In addition to the angle of the grip relative to the tooth line, there is another variable, and that is the height of the center of the grip from the tooth line. IanW likes his saws to have the grip center close to the tooth line, and this arrangement also interacts with the height of the work. With the work higher, the lower hang angles work best.

As a general rule of thumb, the hang angle gets lower as the length of the saw increases..



Interesting to know how the hang angle and centre height interact. Is there a relationship as the centre height moves up or down the hang angle needs to change in unison to compensate?

RayG
5th December 2013, 11:13 AM
These pictures?

296080 296081

Thanks Isaac,

Yes, that's the one! nice find. :2tsup: I can stop looking now.. :)

He is measuring a different angle, but I think it's easily converted, probably, (90 - BBrode_hang_angle) and add subtract a correction for canted blades, the reason I think he is measuring the wrong angle, is that "higher" hang angles would be lower numbers with his method. I would have liked to know the lengths of the saws he measured.. maybe a good research topic to see how hang angle relates to blade length in 18th and 19th century saws.

Regards
Ray

PS Sorry for the thread hijack Stewie,...

pmcgee
5th December 2013, 02:49 PM
There is a whole thread starting here ... Handsaw Handle Angles - Open Handled *PIC* (http://www.woodcentral.com/woodworking/forum/archives_handtools.pl/bid/3108/md/read/id/130784/sbj/handsaw-handle-angles-open-handled/)

that I haven't doven into yet :)

And again apologising to Stewie ... one little aside to Isaac ...
your blog models force as acting along the line of the hang ... or perpendicular actually ... and I'm not sure I agree with that.
Obviously the resultant motion is basically back and forth only ... hmmm .... I don't want to disturb this thread.
I'd better go read them again and think about it some more.

Cheers,
Paul

pmcgee
5th December 2013, 03:08 PM
This is quite common on the net so ... has anyone mentioned ...
" it seems to me that the hang angle, should be such that your index finger points towards somewhere around middle of the tooth line, if you follow this general argument then it seems logical that shorter saws will have higher hang angles, and longer saws would have lower hang angles, (I'm measuring the hang angle as angle between the line of the grip to a line at right angles to the tooth line) So a high hang angle is typically a small dovetail saw, and a low hang angle is typical of a normal handsaw. "

Also ... for Ray ... not a lot left ...

Bob Brode -- A gallery of tools (http://web.archive.org/web/20010430002501/http://modigliani.brandx.net/user/bbrode/woodwork/tools_gallery/)

Bob Brode (http://web.archive.org/web/20020205133227/http://modigliani.brandx.net/user/bbrode/)

Cheers,
Paul

planemaker
5th December 2013, 03:25 PM
Hi all. I completed some more work on the Burdekin Plum backsaw today. As you will the blade has been shaped and fitted, as well as the fit of the brass back within the handle. Both the tenon as well as the mortise within the handle have been stepped similar to how Pedder & Klaus do on some of their backsaws. Just a not with the blade used. It one of a number that Ron Bontz sent to me as a gift a while ago. All pre-toothed. This blade is 0.025 plate, after shaping the heel has a 10" tooth length, and is 70mm in depth. Its been and toothed at 14 tpi, with a 25 degree rip tooth. I have also scribed 2 horizontal lines to each face of the brass back so it can be later shaped with 2 deep bevels. If this doesn't look quite right I still have the option of rounding these off. I still have to complete the final smoothing off with the shellac finish on the handle, but I leave this till the end of the saw build.

Stewie;

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/jarrah%20backsaw/Burdekin%20Plum%20handle/DSC_0067_zps3f5b8c72.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/jarrah%20backsaw/Burdekin%20Plum%20handle/DSC_0067_zps3f5b8c72.jpg.html)

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/jarrah%20backsaw/Burdekin%20Plum%20handle/DSC_0068_zps75f45344.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/jarrah%20backsaw/Burdekin%20Plum%20handle/DSC_0068_zps75f45344.jpg.html)

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/jarrah%20backsaw/Burdekin%20Plum%20handle/DSC_0070_zps9d6899c1.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/jarrah%20backsaw/Burdekin%20Plum%20handle/DSC_0070_zps9d6899c1.jpg.html)

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/jarrah%20backsaw/Burdekin%20Plum%20handle/DSC_0069_zps202ee876.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/jarrah%20backsaw/Burdekin%20Plum%20handle/DSC_0069_zps202ee876.jpg.html)

planemaker
5th December 2013, 03:49 PM
Hi Paul. At what point of the tooth line the index finger points to is a major debate by itself as some saw makers prefer a higher set handle in general, whereas others like myself prefer it lower set so that the wrist is more in a horizontal line to the tooth line. Probably best to raise a new post on that one as you may end up with a major influx of replies debating the pro's and cons. Isaac has some good information about this topic on his website that covers correct posture & working height in relation to best hang for a backsaw. There are so many variables including the general height of the user that make this topic rather difficult come up with 1 single answer to correct hang. The final answer may be it just come down to finding the right backsaw that suits you the individual. It gives me a headache just thinking about the whole debate. But certainly worth the effort to hear all the differing opinions.

Stewie;:doh:

planemaker
6th December 2013, 10:21 AM
Hi. I have moved this thread to the new dedicated Saws - Handmade, sub forum.

I would also like to personally thank Ian () and Neil for their support in making this forum listing available to further meet the needs of our forum membership.

Stewie;

After a few requests by members that make their own tools we have put in sub Forums under Homemade tools and jigs for the saw and chisel makers here:Saws- handmade (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f278/) and here: Chisels-handmade (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f279/)

The Mods and Admins will be moving threads across to these Forums but if you see a thread or post pertaining to these activities that we miss can you post a link here and it will be moved. Thank you.

DSEL74
6th December 2013, 11:19 AM
Hi. I have moved this thread to the new dedicated Saws - Handmade, sub forum.

I would also like to personally thank Ian () and Neil for their support in making this forum listing available to further meet the needs of our forum membership.

Stewie;

After a few requests by members that make their own tools we have put in sub Forums under Homemade tools and jigs for the saw and chisel makers here:Saws- handmade (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f278/) and here: Chisels-handmade (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f279/)

The Mods and Admins will be moving threads across to these Forums but if you see a thread or post pertaining to these activities that we miss can you post a link here and it will be moved. Thank you.


That's good stuff, hopefully it will become a small mecca of toolmaking! Hopefully in the future we also get some plane making happening!

pmcgee
6th December 2013, 02:07 PM
That's good stuff, hopefully it will become a small mecca of toolmaking! Hopefully in the future we also get some plane making happening!
In the future? :?

I think Derek & Ian & Matt & our italian cousin & many others have been at that one for a while! :)

(not to mention eg Ron Brese!)

Cheers,
Paul