Saw Making Folded Backs

[DSEL74]

Here is a link to a blog where the fella makes his own folded backs for those interested in alternative ways. In my opinion a tough job to keep the slot straight.

Kees: oktober 2013 (http://seekelot.blogspot.nl/2013_10_01_archive.html)

[Simplicity]

Nice find there Dale
What I like the most is he is just doing it
Not just gasbaging and discussing minor points
Just doing

[TobyC]

Kees doesn't post here?!! I thought he posted everywhere! :C

[IanW]

Here is a link to a blog where the fella makes his own folded backs for those interested in alternative ways. In my opinion a tough job to keep the slot straight.

You're not wrong there, Dale. I cast about for ways to fold some backs many years ago. I tried folding a piece of 1/8th plate, and found the alloy I had would not go past about 75 degrees of bend without breaking. As I didn't have the means to keep annealing a full spine's worth during the bend, I gave the idea away, & my saw making lapsed for many years, until a friend offered to slit some bar for me with his thumping great milling machine. Posting the result of that effort on the Forum led to Mr. G., who encouraged me to think about slotting my own with some pretty simple gear, and that was the beginning of my saw affliction.....

As I've said several times, slotted backs appeal to me as the most practical way to go for amateur builders or even small-scale production. It's far easier to get a straight spine with a straight slot in bar stock with quite a basic setup, than you can achieve by folding, unless you have a decent panbrake, & even if you have that, you still need soft alloy that will take the bend(which is simply not available round my neck of the woods). The bloke in the article you linked to is having a heck of a time keeping the blades straight while getting his spines on - partly because they are too tight, & partly, I suspect because hammering the metal flat has caused all sorts of uneven pressure along the fold. I aim for a firm press fit that taps on fairly easily. So far I haven't hand one rattle or fall off, & they are a lot easier to get on the blade without distorting it!

Cheers,

[Corneel]

Toby made me aware of this thread. So I'd say, Hello :)! I am the bloke who made the saws.

In the grand scheme of things, I also think slotting a spine is easier. But I've never done it, so I am not sure. Because I want to make my copies of old English saws as authentic as possible, I really wished to make a folded spine.

BTW, I use brass with 63% copper (M 63). It's advertised as being half hard. I had no problem with breakage at all.

[TobyC]

Welcome my friend, glad to see you here! Friendly knowledgeable people on this forum. 296243

[IanW]

Hi Corneel, come join the fray! We welcome all approaches to saw making here. If making copies of old saws is your thing, then of course, folding backs would be de rigeur. For someone making a couple of saws, I think slotting bar stock is easier, but of course, non-traditional.

I only wish I could buy soft alloys easily here, not so much for making saws, but for other jobs like making planes. The only alloy readily available to me is 57-59% Cu, with some lead and smidgin of Aluminium, the rest Zn. It's not good for folding or peining. This is what they tell us on one website:
"Alloy 380 Section Brass is a copper-zinc-lead alloy with a small addition of aluminium, having a duplex phase structure with a fine dispersion of lead particles. It has good machinability but limited cold forming properties and is generally supplied as extruded." .... My italics, but they ain't wrong there!

Cheers,

[DSEL74]

Toby made me aware of this thread. So I'd say, Hello :)! I am the bloke who made the saws.

In the grand scheme of things, I also think slotting a spine is easier. But I've never done it, so I am not sure. Because I want to make my copies of old English saws as authentic as possible, I really wished to make a folded spine.

BTW, I use brass with 63% copper (M 63). It's advertised as being half hard. I had no problem with breakage at all.


Thanks for coming to the forum. Feel free to share your further work here.

[planemaker]

Welcome also to the forum Kees. Please feel free to post photo's of your latest backsaw. I am sure it will add some valuable inspiration to our forum members who are just starting down the road of saw making..

Stewie;

[Corneel]

I've got a question for you guys. When folding and hammering my brass backs I use a temporary 0.3 mm thick steel plate instead of the target 0.5 mm plate. Thus the back is squeezed a little tighter. But I'm starting to think this is overkill, and I can just as well use the 0.5 mm plate while hammering. How are your thoughts about this?

[IanW]

I've got a question for you guys. When folding and hammering my brass backs I use a temporary 0.3 mm thick steel plate instead of the target 0.5 mm plate. Thus the back is squeezed a little tighter. But I'm starting to think this is overkill, and I can just as well use the 0.5 mm plate while hammering. How are your thoughts about this?

Corneel - on most old saws I've pulled apart, the backs were firm, but certainly not tight to the point they needed heavy bashing to get on & off. So when fitting backs, I aim for a similar fit, that requires tapping to get it on the saw, but certainly not heavy hitting. With the slit backs like I use, it's pretty easy to get the fit just so by squeezing the back in a vise. You can close it up very evenly this way & regulate the tightness of fit quite closely. I don't see why that wouldn't work with folded backs, if you folded onto slightly oversize plate, you could then sneak up on the desired fit by squeezing it up a fraction more....

Cheers,

[Corneel]

Yep, that's a good idea. Mine are now a bit too tight probably.

I tried another thing. Pressing my name stamp into the spine. No idea how they did that in the old days, but it warps the back considerably and makes for an extensive rebending and finetuning session again. I think it is smarter to use a laser engraving service if I want my name on the back.

[planemaker]

I've got a question for you guys. When folding and hammering my brass backs I use a temporary 0.3 mm thick steel plate instead of the target 0.5 mm plate. Thus the back is squeezed a little tighter. But I'm starting to think this is overkill, and I can just as well use the 0.5 mm plate while hammering. How are your thoughts about this?

Hi Corneel. From watching your short video on your website, I agree with you that the 0.5mm target size would be a better option to use. It should not require that much exertion to fit the folded back onto the saw plate.

[lightwood]

Yep, that's a good idea. Mine are now a bit too tight probably.

I tried another thing. Pressing my name stamp into the spine. No idea how they did that in the old days, but it warps the back considerably and makes for an extensive rebending and finetuning session again. I think it is smarter to use a laser engraving service if I want my name on the back.
Corneel,
they probably stamped it with a screw fly press, and did it before the folding over.
...at least that's how I have done it.
I don't have a picture of the press with a saw back, but I do have a picture of the press when I put my mark in a plane lever cap. On that one I used hard brass, and did it red hot, on soft brass, it doesn't need the heat.
Regards,
Peter
http://www.petermcbride.com/press_tools/images/press.JPG

http://www.petermcbride.com/planemaking/images/smooth_19.jpg

http://www.petermcbride.com/temp/images/saw_back2.jpg

http://www.petermcbride.com/temp/images/saw_back3.jpg

http://www.petermcbride.com/temp/images/saw_back1.jpg

[planemaker]

Corneel,
they probably stamped it with a screw fly press, and did it before the folding over.
...at least that's how I have done it.

Very sound advise Peter.

[DSEL74]

http://www.petermcbride.com/temp/images/saw_back2.jpg

http://www.petermcbride.com/temp/images/saw_back3.jpg



Hi Peter,

How did you get from the wide arch to the closed version? It looks like the ends are crimped more than the rest. Corneel used a hammer, others have suggested a machine vice, what was your method as it looks to have worked really well.

[lightwood]

Hi Peter,

How did you get from the wide arch to the closed version? It looks like the ends are crimped more than the rest. Corneel used a hammer, others have suggested a machine vice, what was your method as it looks to have worked really well.
Dale,
I used a hammer, a hard mallet and a soft rawhide mallet, a couple 1/2 inch steel plates, and the vice, and I did run it through my jeweller's rolling mills, but that was not a help, I had to hammer it back to shape after that.
There isn't a crimp at the ends.
It is just where I stopped sanding and left the brass oxidation. When bending, the ends tend to cup and deform a little. I can leave it in the waste, or just sand a bit more and polish down to an even colour all along the brass.

Peter

[planemaker]

Dale,
I used a hammer, a hard mallet and a soft rawhide mallet, a couple 1/2 inch steel plates, and the vice, and I did run it through my jeweller's rolling mills, but that was not a help, I had to hammer it back to shape after that.
There isn't a crimp at the ends.
It is just where I stopped sanding and left the brass oxidation. When bending, the ends tend to cup and deform a little. I can leave it in the waste, or just sand a bit more and polish down to an even colour all along the brass.

Peter

Hi Peter. Having been and done that with folding your own spine, (kudos for doing so) could you see yourself repeating the same process again given the need for a saw spine, or would you preference to using a slit spine next time.

Stewie;

[DSEL74]

Cheers peter thanks for explaining your process.

[Corneel]

Peter thanks for your explanation. In my case, I have so many dents that I need to sand quite deep. So I am afraid I would erase the namestamp again during the smoothing process. Engraving looks like a better solution in my case. I use the vice

A few years back I made a saw using a 30 ton press to flaten the spine. That was very helpfull, but I don't have access to that press anymore. I tried to flatten the spine with a big vice, but I only managed to bend the tommy bar, before I got anywhere near flat

The hammering process looks rough, but it isn't too bad. The dents are no problem to remove with a bit of patience, a file and a 60 grit belt on the sander. I wouldn't hesitate to do it again. Hopefully my hammering technique improved enough to reduce the problems. It is remarkable how easy it is to get the spine near totally straight. Any remaining problems at the toothline can be remidied by twisting the spine. Of course, a dovetail saw is easier then an 18" tenon saw.

[FenceFurniture]

Corneel, as a suggestion you could turn the hammering marks into a feature. I can see it in my mind's eye, and it looks good. Perhaps reality is uglier :D (as is too often the case)

Seriously though, there has been quite some discussion about decorating the brass backs in this thread (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f278/melbourne-backsaw-making-workshop-174387), from posts #491 onwards (in particular #494).

[Corneel]

Here's my namestamp pressed into one of my sawbacks. Doesn't look too impressive, does it? It quite looks like it allready has 200 years of daily wear and tear. And I made for a lot of extra work to get the saw straight again. The stamp sais C:H

296743

[lightwood]

Peter thanks for your explanation. In my case, I have so many dents that I need to sand quite deep. So I am afraid I would erase the namestamp again during the smoothing process. Engraving looks like a better solution in my case. I use the vice

A few years back I made a saw using a 30 ton press to flaten the spine. That was very helpfull, but I don't have access to that press anymore. I tried to flatten the spine with a big vice, but I only managed to bend the tommy bar, before I got anywhere near flat

The hammering process looks rough, but it isn't too bad. The dents are no problem to remove with a bit of patience, a file and a 60 grit belt on the sander. I wouldn't hesitate to do it again. Hopefully my hammering technique improved enough to reduce the problems. It is remarkable how easy it is to get the spine near totally straight. Any remaining problems at the toothline can be remidied by twisting the spine. Of course, a dovetail saw is easier then an 18" tenon saw.
I agree the hammering is not too bad, and getting it straight is one of the easier parts...a selection of the silversmith's hammers is also a bit of an advantage.:;
As for destroying the punch mark, it will be protected of you were to use a heavy, hard plastic hammer when you are near the punch mark. It will also move the brass without leaving deep dents.
I also use a very hard round face timber mallet. Some local timbers we can get are ideal for that kind of thing.
I use a heavy cast iron hammer with copper on one side and a hard plastic on the other. I don't use the copper side for this job, I only use the plastic side.
One of these (http://www.thorhammer.com/Hammers/Copper/)

There is a lot of enthusiasm around this forum from those who have been recently inspired with the forging and filing of metal.
Often, with those who are new to this kind of thing, there is a reluctance to let the metal get right out of shape on the way to where it needs to be, all straight and square. So they try and get the shape without really letting the metal have it. Understanding how the metal can be manipulated, then having the experience to get it back into shape without too many grunge marks will come in time. It is an advantage to actually stand and watch someone do it, but it sounds like you are getting there.

Do you like to leave the brass a little springy, or would you do an annealing after it is pushed all the way down? If it is softened, even partially, it will planish more easily, but I think it won't be as springy as the older backs are.
I prefer a bit of spring myself, and even give it work over with a planishing hammer to harden it up somewhat.

Do you have a planishing type hammer?

Regards,
Peter

[RayG]

Hi Peter,

What brass alloy would you recommend for folded backs?

I was buying some brass from George White, and noticed he has 3/4 x 3/4 x 1/16 brass angle, he also has 1/8" but I'd think bending that might be a bit ambitious... I'd consider the 1/16 first.

Like this...
http://www.georgewhite.com.au/images/brassangle.jpg

The alloy is C38000, and it crossed my mind that it's already half way to becoming a folded back... maybe anneal it first and then drive over it a few times with a truck... :)

Regards
Ray

PS .. That alloy is probably not suitable for bending... :(

Typical Uses for C38000 Architectural Bronze "Low Leaded" Brass:
ARCHITECTURE: Thresholds, Architectural Sections, Door Frames, Window Frames
BUILDERS HARDWARE: Hinges, Builders Hardware, Butts
OTHER: Extruded Shapes

[IanW]

....PS .. That alloy is probably not suitable for bending... :(

You are dead right, Ray. That's the most common alloy you get in Aus, it seems. Machines well enough (comes off the lathe tools in chips rather than continuous curlies), but it does not like to be bent too far, and hates being peined. :no:

I buy 1mm plate from the same place, not sure what alloy it is, & it takes 90 degree bends quite happily when I make 'shoes' for my marking gauges, so maybe 1/16th will take bending ok, with just one or two annealings. If you find a local source for soft plate suitable for peining, please let me know, I want to build a couple more dovetailed planes before I expire, & though I've learnt to live with the hard alloy, an easy-peining one would be much nicer to work with, I'm sure.....

Cheers,

[RayG]

If you find a local source for soft plate suitable for peining, please let me know,

Cheers,

Hi Ian,

I have some 1/4" Brass Alloy 260 ( CS26000 ) tucked away for that exact same reason...

George White have it, but the sheet size is 1800 x 900, and you don't want to know what a 1/4" sheet costs...

George White | Australia's leading stockist & distributor of non-ferrous metals - Product List (http://www.georgewhite.com.au/products/product_listing.asp?categorycode=BP-HG)

Principal Design Features
Brasses (Copper-Zinc Alloy), Cartridge Brass, 70%. C26000 has the highest ductility in the yellow brass series. Easily machined but is more often cold formed.

Regards
Ray

PS... Back on topic, for folded brass backs, this stuff would be ideal for folding, but I note that it comes in 1.5 tonne coils...
George White | Australia's leading stockist & distributor of non-ferrous metals - Product List (http://www.georgewhite.com.au/products/product_listing.asp?categorycode=BS-ICF)

[DSEL74]

Thumbsucker just had the left over of a plate of the proper brass from making planes in the market place for $100. It was quite thick so good for larger planes. If it had been a bit thinner & cheaper I would have grabbed it. If still available it might suit someone else's needs.

[IanW]

Yes, 1/4" is way too thick for what I have in mind, unfortunately, or I might have tried gazumping Doug.

I used 1/8" for the sides of my 9" coffin smoother and that seemed adequate - I would have liked 5/32" or 4mm, but there was nothing available in those thicknesses that I could find. I think Lightwood used 3/16" for the sides of a slightly larger plane, & he was (is) happy with that. I've forgotten what my plane weighs, but it is heavier than my post WW2 Norris A5, and quite heavy enough for me in a long session. I was using it this morning, in fact, on some rather recalcitrant wood, & noticed once again what a difference the high angle blade makes - on the one hand, it handles cranky grain so much better than anything else I have, but on the other, it is decidedly harder to push around! So when I get that round tuit, I'm going to make a small smoother with a slightly lower angle, just to see if I can hit the perfect compromise. I probably won't, of course. but I'll have a lot of fun trying.... :U

Cheers,

[lightwood]

Hi Peter,

What brass alloy would you recommend for folded backs?

I was buying some brass from George White, and noticed he has 3/4 x 3/4 x 1/16 brass angle, he also has 1/8" but I'd think bending that might be a bit ambitious... I'd consider the 1/16 first.

Like this...
http://www.georgewhite.com.au/images/brassangle.jpg

The alloy is C38000, and it crossed my mind that it's already half way to becoming a folded back... maybe anneal it first and then drive over it a few times with a truck... :)

Regards
Ray

PS .. That alloy is probably not suitable for bending... :(

Typical Uses for C38000 Architectural Bronze "Low Leaded" Brass:
ARCHITECTURE: Thresholds, Architectural Sections, Door Frames, Window Frames
BUILDERS HARDWARE: Hinges, Builders Hardware, Butts
OTHER: Extruded Shapes


Ray,
The extruded brass alloys, the machining alloys with lead have very poor cold forging properties. They will fracture and crack as you bring a hammer into the same room.
On the other hand, cartridge brass, #260 is better than good, it is excellent. It can have it's cross-section reduced by about 75% before it needs annealing.

Regards,
Peter

[Corneel]

I'm lucky, probably. There is a metal supplier with a huge selection in the town where I work (Rotterdam). They are not particularly cheap, but better then unavailable. Spring steel I get from ebay in Germany, it's difficult to find that stuff in small quantities.

A picture of the hammers I use, and my new saw smithing anvil. The hammers are simple sledge hammers, but I eased the corners a bit on the bandsander. The "anvil" is a piece of scrap. In a harbour town, one mans offcut is another mans sawsmithing anvil. That Thor hammer looks like a very usefull tool, I'll check if I can find something similar with enough heft.

296830

[DSEL74]

I'm lucky, probably. There is a metal supplier with a huge selection in the town where I work (Rotterdam). They are not particularly cheap, but better then unavailable. Spring steel I get from ebay in Germany, it's difficult to find that stuff in small quantities.

A picture of the hammers I use, and my new saw smithing anvil. The hammers are simple sledge hammers, but I eased the corners a bit on the bandsander. The "anvil" is a piece of scrap. In a harbour town, one mans offcut is another mans sawsmithing anvil. That Thor hammer looks like a very usefull tool, I'll check if I can find something similar with enough heft.

296830


Can't see real well. But you might save your self some work if you polish the faces of the hammers. Metal workers hammers are all highly polished on the faces. This way you don't add in any unnecessary texture. I wonder what a pebbled spine would look like if you dimpled the whole surface evenly with a small ball pien.

[Corneel]

Yes, that's a good idea. But I make enough dents because of my clumsy hammering technique, to not to worry too much about some scratches.

[Simplicity]

This is all very interesting
Haven't posted for a awhile family health issues
But it is nice to just unwind here for a bit

[BobL]

I made a saw back from brass angle but I had to anneal it twice to get it to bend completely over.
I used my 400 mm long wood work vice to bend it which also kept it straight.
Then I pounded it with a small lumpy and did not have a problem keeping it straight.
Now that I have a mains gas powered forge I should give that a go - main problem with it is that it is too hot and low temp control is not that easy.

[pmcgee]

Maybe BobL can answer this ... given you want sorta small quantities ... what is the possibility of melting the brass you can get and changing the alloy %s ?

What needs adding? Copper?

Thanks,
Paul


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wmIEZ2Vrfg

[BobL]

Maybe BobL can answer this ... given you want sorta small quantities ... what is the possibility of melting the brass you can get and changing the alloy %s ?

Err . . . . in the time that it takes to melt and cast the new alloy you'd have annealed and made about a dozen backs from bar or plate.

[IanW]

Err . . . . in the time that it takes to melt and cast the new alloy you'd have annealed and made about a dozen backs from bar or plate.

Adding a bit of Cu (there's about 5% more in gun metal than the stuff we've been talking about) would present no problems. But how do you remove the lead & Aluminium, which are what give it its (for our present purposes) undesirable properties??? :U

Cheers,

[TobyC]

How about a copper spine?

[DSEL74]

How about a copper spine?

It is being offered in production. It wouldn't be as rigid as brass I suspect but probably still rigid enough.
As you can see below the different materials used for the spines come in different thicknesses. I would guess that is to compensate for the hardness and get a uniform rigidity.
http://www.theunpluggedwoodshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/20120915_Bad_Axe_Xmas_Guranteed.jpghttp://gentlemint.com/media/images/2012/02/11/518f8aa6.jpg.505x650_q85.jpg
Copper can look nice. I think it oxidises quicker than brass.

[planemaker]

How about a copper spine?

Copper is much more expensive than brass. With the spine material choice on Bad Axe Backsaws, Copper is near twice the cost of brass, and Bronze is twice the cost of Copper and 4 x the cost of brass.

Ultimate tensile strength - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_tensile_strength)

[TobyC]

Nice, especially after it turns brown.

Would that be a useful alternative for you fellas in Australia? Cheap, easy to find, and easy to work?

[pmcgee]

I had that thought about copper too, Toby.

But seeing the Bad-Axe choices reminds me how nice Bronze is.

I like that.

Paul.

[TobyC]

Yeah, I saw that bronze one too, good stuff! 297105

[pmcgee]

First - this guy has several pages - one is a summary/article, and was the only one I had read before just now.
(he mentions taper grinding ... but no details!)
This link is to making his own medallions.
Handsaw maker: Medallions design and fittings. (http://handsaw-maker.blogspot.com.au/2011/05/making-medallion-and-brass-fittings.html)


But regarding folded backs ... I just noticed the Kenyon saw CS wrote about in 2008.
Is this a trick of the camera, or an artifact of how it was bent?
It seems one side is thinner.
I (http://blog.lostartpress.com/2008/11/28/i%E2%80%99ve-seen-the-history-of-saws/)

http://lostartpress.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/toe.jpg?w=640

[BobL]

I just realised these saw handles I made in 2008 also have folded brass angle backs.
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=70152&stc=1&d=1206752920

[Corneel]

But regarding folded backs ... I just noticed the Kenyon saw CS wrote about in 2008.
Is this a trick of the camera, or an artifact of how it was bent?
It seems one side is thinner.
I (http://blog.lostartpress.com/2008/11/28/i%E2%80%99ve-seen-the-history-of-saws/)

http://lostartpress.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/toe.jpg?w=640

Yes that is a trick of the camera. The front edge is chamfered. You only see the chamfer on the side visible in the picture, making this side look fatter.

[IanW]

:whs:

[pmcgee]

I'm no metal-worker (wood-worker either :) ) ... so probably easily impressed ... but I thought this was a good little video.

Nice clean work practice ... and potentially modifiable to the brass backs ... in the sense of a small hydraulic jack and a form?

Paul

Note to self ... don't forget the actual video.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mn1GsAJcpok

[rob streeper]

Hello to all. I am new to the forum. I have been working over the past couple of years to produce saw parts and have finally made some progress. As you can see the process was not entirely painless but the last two photos show the end result.
I'm thinking of making some backs in stainless steel, does anybody have experience with it?

[rob streeper]

Attached are some photo's of the first 8" stainless saw back.299127299128

[planemaker]

Welcome to the forum Rob. Very nice work with the folded backs. I would imagine there's a lot of hard work involved in the process. Kudos for doing the same with stainless.

Stewie;

[rob streeper]

Welcome to the forum Rob. Very nice work with the folded backs. I would imagine there's a lot of hard work involved in the process. Kudos for doing the same with stainless.

Stewie;

Thanks Stewie,
Yes, a lot of work, about 45 tons worth in fact. I finished a couple of 12" backs this afternoon before shutting down to do some maintenance on the hydraulics. Got myself sprayed with fluid as a bonus. Wife's in the photo studio now but I'll put up a photo later.
Cheers,
Rob

[RayG]

Welcome to the forum Rob.

Beautiful work! :2tsup:

I'm planning to slit some stainless soon to see what it's like for saw backs, what thickness of stainless did you fold? What grade 316?

Ray

[rob streeper]

Welcome to the forum Rob.

Beautiful work! :2tsup:

I'm planning to slit some stainless soon to see what it's like for saw backs, what thickness of stainless did you fold? What grade 316?

Ray

Hi Ray,
299162
I used 304, 0.083" thick. Here are some pictures of a 12" back made today.

Rob299159299160299161

[Simplicity]

Hi Rob
Nice work on the folded backs


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1) 2

[Corneel]

Very nice Rob! And in stainless no less, you're a brave men! I understand you use a 45 ton hydraulic press? I have made a few backs with a hydraulic press too in the past, which makes for a lot less sanding and straightening work then the hammering method.

You close them all the way at the blade end. Is it hard to insert the blade afterwards?
They look quite oval, which reminds me of my Spear and Jackson saws, in contrast to my older English backsaws which are a little flatter. The Spear and Jackson has the very end crimped close, but I like the look of the open end more.

[rob streeper]

Very nice Rob! And in stainless no less, you're a brave men! I understand you use a 45 ton hydraulic press? I have made a few backs with a hydraulic press too in the past, which makes for a lot less sanding and straightening work then the hammering method.

You close them all the way at the blade end. Is it hard to insert the blade afterwards?
They look quite oval, which reminds me of my Spear and Jackson saws, in contrast to my older English backsaws which are a little flatter. The Spear and Jackson has the very end crimped close, but I like the look of the open end more.

Hi Corneel,
Yes I press them. I clamp the plate between two blocks of soft wood in a heavy vice and drive the backs on from the end. Not hard at all if I stop at the point where the blade has a bit of an opening. I chamfer the edges of the blade steel to ease the process. A little lithium or MoS2 grease helps too. I tried hammering and a bar folder too - both were inferior in my opinion as there was a lot of post folding work to be done and I wanted to be able to make more than one back a day.
Thanks,
Rob

[rob streeper]

Does anyone here have experience in forming bronze? I am thinking of using 0.125" bearing bronze (392) to make some backs.

[DSEL74]

Hi Corneel,
Yes I press them. I clamp the plate between two blocks of soft wood in a heavy vice and drive the backs on from the end. Not hard at all if I stop at the point where the blade has a bit of an opening. I chamfer the edges of the blade steel to ease the process. A little lithium or MoS2 grease helps too.

Hi Rob, What gauge plate are you using for the blade? It sounds like your starting at one end and sliding the plate down the full length from that end (Side Entry). Or do you have the blade sitting on the brass aligned in position and start hammering in on one end and move along the full length pushing it down until you reach the other end? (Top Entry)

[Corneel]

It looks like I have to gain access to a press again. Oh well, hammering works too, just a bit more work.

[rob streeper]

Hi Rob, What gauge plate are you using for the blade? It sounds like your starting at one end and sliding the plate down the full length from that end (Side Entry). Or do you have the blade sitting on the brass aligned in position and start hammering in on one end and move along the full length pushing it down until you reach the other end? (Top Entry)

For the pictured saw the plate is 0.015". On it I used what you call the side entry technique. I work them down from the toe to the heel using lithium grease. Once the back is pretty much in place I tap it down from above to produce even tension in the plate. With thinner stock it usually takes more adjusting to get the tension right. Given my experience to date I could probably use a slightly thinner plate or a taper-ground thicker plate. Working on taper grinding now and the results so far are good. When I'm happy with the outcome I will post more information.

[rob streeper]

It looks like I have to gain access to a press again. Oh well, hammering works too, just a bit more work.

If you're patient and use a good soft face hammer, like Wiha makes, you can get good results. In this photo the top two backs are made by hammering, the rest are pressed. It took me the better part of a day to make 1 back by the hammering method. I made a dozen pressed backs in an afternoon.
299208

[Simplicity]

Well, well, looks like we have new saw making kid on the block .
And from the pics so far ,looks like he's a professional at his game .
I best lift my game ,and get on with it the bar has just been moved again.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1) 2

[planemaker]

Are these your folded backs being sold on ebay Rob.

Heavy Folded Brass Saw Back for Dovetail Saw Make A Your Own Saw | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Heavy-Folded-Brass-Saw-Back-for-Dovetail-Saw-Make-a-Your-Own-Saw-/121239402335?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c3a6e775f)

[DSEL74]

Are these your folded backs being sold on ebay Rob.

Heavy Folded Brass Saw Back for Dovetail Saw Make A Your Own Saw | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Heavy-Folded-Brass-Saw-Back-for-Dovetail-Saw-Make-a-Your-Own-Saw-/121239402335?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c3a6e775f)


Looks like his saws in the other items for sale and also S/S backs.

[rob streeper]

Are these your folded backs being sold on ebay Rob.

Heavy Folded Brass Saw Back for Dovetail Saw Make A Your Own Saw | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Heavy-Folded-Brass-Saw-Back-for-Dovetail-Saw-Make-a-Your-Own-Saw-/121239402335?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c3a6e775f)

Yes they are.
Sorry for the delay, I have been busy making a workbench.

[rob streeper]

Yes they are.

At this point I am stopped on making the backs. I killed my TC bandsaw blade by cutting stainless. I plan to post an article here covering my conversion of the single phase single speed wood working saw to three phase variable speed wood and metal working saw. Still waiting for parts.

[rob streeper]

At this point I am stopped on making the backs. I killed my TC bandsaw blade by cutting stainless. I plan to post an article here covering my conversion of the single phase single speed wood working saw to three phase variable speed wood and metal working saw. Still waiting for parts.

I started posting the bandsaw conversion under the appropriate thread here for those who are interested.

[rob streeper]

One afternoon recently I had occasion to use my Wenzloff & Sons 4 t.p.i rip saw for a small project. I have long been aware that Mike W. is known for making tapered saw plates among other things. The light just happened to be right while I was cleaning the saw and I saw it: I could see the machining marks of the tapering and I knew in an instant exactly how he had done it. I won't reveal the secret because I think it would be inappropriate to do so. Nonetheless, I had discovered his secret. I at once began thinking about how to reproduce, or if possible better the technique. By and by I eventually realized how I could make tapered saw plates and, in my opinion, make them better, faster and cheaper.

Today I put the proposal to the test. These are the results.

The steel is 0.025" 1095 cut to 12 and ~20 inches. The depth of both plates is right at 5.5". I applied my method first to the 12" plate. Here are the results.

At the proximal end (nearest the camera), right at 18-18.5 thousandths:

302488

In the middle:

302489

And finally at the distal (furthest from camera).

302491

So far, so good. Now I tried it with the ~20 inch plate.

Proximal:

Well, I can't get photo's to upload just now so I will add more later.

Cheers,
Rob

302492

At the middle:

[planemaker]

Flap disc grinding & polishing.

[rob streeper]

Flap disc grinding & polishing.

Good guess, but not in my case. When the upload facility is working better I will post more pic's and measurements.

[pmcgee]

Rob .. if you're having the same issue I've had for a week or more, you can still upload 1 photo at a time - which is a pain - using the Basic Uploader option.

It looks like you are 'grinding' uniformly along the length of the blade? Not like the classic handsaw with the semi-radial tapering from the tip?


I posted some videos on backsaw.net of japanese knife craftsmen with biggish wheels grinding away ...

Grinding a saw blade - Saw Discussion Forums (http://www.backsaw.net/index.php?option=com_jfusion&Itemid=58&jfile=showthread.php&p=2953#post2953)

(a broken link, at the moment, ... A Day at the Sheffield Cutlery Works - Saws - The Penny Magazine, 04/1844 (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:1IX8GGuJLrMJ:www.wkfinetools.com/huk/z-UKReading-hist/1844-04-SheffCutleryWorks-1/1844-dayInSheffCutleryWorks-1.asp+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au))

I wonder if you could "cook your own" grinding wheel to come up with something say 18"x4" ?
Or just shape a piece of limestone and see how it goes?
We have a poured limestone tile here that I was flattening course oilstones on 3 years ago when I was just started learning enough to be dangerous.

Cheers,
Paul

[DSEL74]

I think Ray & Josh were experimenting with taper grinding on the surface grinder. I wonder what the results ended up being?

[pmcgee]

Nothing new under the sun ...

How To Make a Grinding Wheel - Tools and Tool Making - Bladesmith's Forum Board (http://www.bladesmithsforum.com/index.php?showtopic=15617)

old world grinding meets the modern west - Tools and Tool Making - Bladesmith's Forum Board (http://www.bladesmithsforum.com/index.php?showtopic=15046)

Making you own grinding wheel! (http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?75388-Making-you-own-grinding-wheel)!

Homemade grinding wheel in Bladesmithing/Knifemaking Archive 1 Forum (http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/topic/24167#.UuuJANKSzIl)

[RayG]

I think Ray & Josh were experimenting with taper grinding on the surface grinder. I wonder what the results ended up being?

Hi Dale, I daren't do any grinding other than bevel chisels...( well actually Josh is doing those ) :) but I might break cover and do a quick test one of these days..

Ray

[rob streeper]

Rob .. if you're having the same issue I've had for a week or more, you can still upload 1 photo at a time - which is a pain - using the Basic Uploader option.

It looks like you are 'grinding' uniformly along the length of the blade? Not like the classic handsaw with the semi-radial tapering from the tip?


I posted some videos on backsaw.net of japanese knife craftsmen with biggish wheels grinding away ...

Grinding a saw blade - Saw Discussion Forums (http://www.backsaw.net/index.php?option=com_jfusion&Itemid=58&jfile=showthread.php&p=2953#post2953)

(a broken link, at the moment, ... A Day at the Sheffield Cutlery Works - Saws - The Penny Magazine, 04/1844 (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:1IX8GGuJLrMJ:www.wkfinetools.com/huk/z-UKReading-hist/1844-04-SheffCutleryWorks-1/1844-dayInSheffCutleryWorks-1.asp+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au))

I wonder if you could "cook your own" grinding wheel to come up with something say 18"x4" ?
Or just shape a piece of limestone and see how it goes?
We have a poured limestone tile here that I was flattening course oilstones on 3 years ago when I was just started learning enough to be dangerous.

Cheers,
Paul

The picture upload is still not working. The little spinner turns indicating upload but then stops and no picture is available for pasting. I'll have to split the post into multiple parts I suppose.

I've read elsewhere that MW finds the taper grinding process tedious. From what I see on his blade I agree that his method would be difficult to do well. I suspect surface grinding can do it but that seems like swatting a fly with a sledge hammer. I need to dig out my thickness gauge today and measure the gradient down the blade but I am confident that I have a uniform product.

Cheers,
Rob

[rob streeper]

Long plate at the middle:302543302543

And at the distal end:

302544

Still having trouble with pictures, I'll try again later.

[pmcgee]

Hi Rob are you using this icon?

302551

To bring up this window?

302552

If not, "Select Files" is the easiest way to add multiple pictures that you can then space apart or drag around.
That hasn't been working for me for a while now ... I've been using the "Basic Uploader" and putting up one pic at a time.

The "Manage Attachments" at the bottom of the page is really only needed for deleting a picture from a post.

(You might know all this already.)
Cheers,
Paul

[rob streeper]

Hi Rob are you using this icon?

302551

To bring up this window?

302552

If not, "Select Files" is the easiest way to add multiple pictures that you can then space apart or drag around.
That hasn't been working for me for a while now ... I've been using the "Basic Uploader" and putting up one pic at a time.

The "Manage Attachments" at the bottom of the page is really only needed for deleting a picture from a post.

(You might know all this already.)
Cheers,
Paul

Hi Paul,

I get all of those pop-ups and they appear to work. The Basic Uploader is what my efforts are defaulting to. I don't get the multi-file uploader any more. I assume the moderators are working at it.

Cheers,
Rob

[rob streeper]

Okay, now for the middle measurement:

302715

And at the distal end:

302716

Now to add the back. I start my backs on in what is apparently a non-traditional way. I start the back from one corner of the plate and slide it lengthwise down the plate. The plate must be greased.

302717

Using a soft face hammer tap the back onto the plate.

302718

And work it down the plate at a shallow angle.

302719

Now bring the long axis of the back parallel to the top of the plate and keep driving it.

302720

I found it necessary to switch from my 24 ounce soft face hammer to this 10 lb masons mallet.

302721

It is a wooden handled round mallet styled like a carvers mallet. The core, top and bottom of the head are steel and the center is a stack of leather washers. Extremely effective but it reminded me that I need to add some gussets to the base of my work bench to prevent it ringing.

And finally the products. First the 12 inch back.

302722

And the 20 incher.

302723

And they are nice and straight.

302724


Factors that are important are:
1) Use a good vise. The jaws must be parallel and the grip on the plate must be good. If the jaws are not parallel or exert uneven clamping pressure on the plate the plate will warp or wrinkle giving rise to a bulge in the plate that is most evident at the tooth line.
2) Sand the plate to at least 280 grit to reduce friction.
3) Grease the top edge of the plate to reduce friction.
4) Use a securely mounted vise and workbench.
5) Us a heavy mallet as opposed to a light one. Less chance of bending.
6) Dress the leading edge of the saw plate to remove burrs.

Cheers,
Rob

[BobL]

Rob your method of getting the saw backs on is pretty well how I did mine.

I do some of my more delicate metal working such as holding brass while tapping etc, on my big (400 x 120 mm) leather faced vice. As well as protecting the metal it holds the work (even thin sheet metal) very firmly. Yes it does sometimes leave a mess that needs cleaning up.

This is a pic on my delicate persuader.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachments/f44/27278d1153828670-new-uses-old-leather-belts-used-corks-lcmallet.jpg

[rob streeper]

Rob your method of getting the saw backs on is pretty well how I did mine.

I do some of my more delicate metal working such as holding brass while tapping etc, on my big (400 x 120 mm) leather faced vice. As well as protecting the metal it holds the work (even thin sheet metal) very firmly. Yes it does sometimes leave a mess that needs cleaning up.

This is a pic on my delicate persuader.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachments/f44/27278d1153828670-new-uses-old-leather-belts-used-corks-lcmallet.jpg

Hi Bob,

I just installed that new 8" Wilton vise and I have found that I can clamp saw plates directly with the metal jaws and not mark the plate. I assume that it is because the Wilton jaws have very fine teeth and that the jaws clamp together very precisely despite this being their third line 748 model. I also have a Craftsman 6.5" vise and have had trouble with plates getting waves in them. I examined the vise closely and found that the jaws do not meet cleanly. I suspect I bent it removing a universal joint. I think I will replace it with another Wilton and pass it on to some needy soul.

Nice hammer, what did you weight it with?

Cheers,
Rob

[BobL]

I just installed that new 8" Wilton vise and I have found that I can clamp saw plates directly with the metal jaws and not mark the plate. I assume that it is because the Wilton jaws have very fine teeth and that the jaws clamp together very precisely despite this being their third line 748 model.

Apart from photos I've not see a Wilton but I have heard they are pretty good.

On my welding table I have an old (Australian) Dawn, 6" offset vice. I got for nothing - as it was jamming, no jaws and was quite rusty. During its restoration, instead of fitting toothed hardened steel replacement jaws I made up and fitted flat mild steel jaws which leaves anything made of steel unmarked but still holds the work real well.
However it will crush alluvium and brass so that is where I usually use the leather lined WW vice.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachments/f65/168352d1303904821-electrolysis-using-old-computer-power-supply-vicejaws.jpg

Unfortunately the mild steel suffered a bit from the welding process so they no longer look anywhere near as clean as in this photo.
For smaller mechanical work I have 2, 4" vices with teeth , and for saw filing I have a home made wooden thing.


[/QUOTE]Nice hammer, what did you weight it with? [/QUOTE]
Thanks - it's not weighted. The Western Australian Red Gum is dense enough and I mainly use it for light work.

[rob streeper]

I made some measurements of one of the two saw plates that I taper ground. I can do better on consistency but I think the results are pretty good. All measurements are in millimeters. Those measurements with inter-divisional measurement at the limit of the caliper I used are marked (+) or (-) where the reading was above or below the indicated numerical reading. All measurements were taken approximately 3 cm in along the edges as marked.

First the toe:

302983

At the heel:

302986

And down the tooth line:

302987
I don't have a micrometer with a sufficiently deep throat to measure in the center of the saw plate yet.

Cheers,
Rob

[rob streeper]

The salts for the quenching bath have not arrived so I spent the day making backs.

305138

These are medium weight brass (bottom and extreme left ) heavy brass (upper left-center) and stainless.

Cheers,
Rob

[rob streeper]

Here they are.


These are light brass (LBB), medium stainless (SSM), medium steel (MSB), medium brass (MBB) and heavy brass (HBB). They range from about 9 to 14 inches in length. Listing these on eBay under 'Alamo Toolworks'.

331322

Cheers,
Rob

[Simplicity]

Hi Rob
Could not find them on eBay?
Cheers Matt

[rob streeper]

Matt,

Here's the listing # 271670767210. For you guys postage will be a killer. If you can organize it a group buy would be a better way to proceed as I can get several into a flat rate package. If you want a lot of them send me a p.m. and I'll give you a much better price.

Cheers,
Rob

[Simplicity]

Thanks Rob

[Heavansabove]

Rob, you might want to have a look at http://tgiag.com/sawbacks.html.

Cheers
Peter

[rob streeper]

Rob, you might want to have a look at http://tgiag.com/sawbacks.html.

Cheers
Peter

Cool, they've posted a lot of saw handle drawings too.

[rob streeper]

Here's an instruction sheet I prepared for installing folded saw backs.
349276349265349266349267349268349269349270349278349271349272349273349274349275349277

[rob streeper]

I'm loading a box for shipment to Australia over the next two weeks. If anybody wants any folded saw backs send me a PM.

[DSEL74]

Rob,

''can you supply these without the ATW stamp, and what is the forum pricing?

[rob streeper]

Rob,

''can you supply these without the ATW stamp, and what is the forum pricing?

No stamp. I need to check current pricing of brass as it's dropped about 30% since I last bought stock and I need new. I have heavy (0.125") and medium (0.085") brass in any length up to 22". 304SS and mild steel for bluing 0.095" are additional options. I may have to make the longer lengths but should be doable in a couple weeks.

[rob streeper]

A new batch of backs, some going to Australia. On the left are medium weight brass, in the middle are heavy brass and on the right are some steel.

389974

[rob streeper]

Ground, rough profiled and trued. Upper left are steel, upper right are heavy brass and lower rank is medium brass.

391850