New chuck

[nearnexus]

I've been looking for a three jaw scroll chuck for the Schaublin 102 recently, and it was an interesting excercise going through comments on the web regarding brands, price, and quality.

To cut a long story short, I've just bought an 80 mm Fuerda chuck so I'm keen to see how good it is.

Quite a few comments from the USA suggest these are better than Bison these days, so it remains to be seen if it's that good.

They're Polish chucks now made in China - like many other brands.

According to the guy at General Tools where I got it, they've sold a lot to precision machinists in all sizes, and the feedback has been 100% good.

Anyone else in the group tried this brand?

General Tools were good on the deal and knocked the $130 price back to $117 when I asked, so a plug in it for them on this.

Rob

[Ueee]

Hi Rob,
I have a 130mm front mount Fuerda for my rotary table, it is a nice chuck.

I also have a 5" chuck from ozmestore, it is crap in comparison. When moving the jaws any decent distance there are obvious tight and loose spots. I have cleaned it out but this has not seemed to help.

As far as the Rivett goes i will be trying to find some genuine chucks, these have a small L type mount. I am yet to see one for sale though. I have found some genuine 4C collets but it will take a long time to build a complete set.....

Ew

[nearnexus]

Hi Ewan,

I noticed in my travels on the web in the last day or so that there was a Rivett cross slide/ compound going on Ebay in the USA if you're interested.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RIVETT-Compound-Cross-Slide-for-Lathe-3595-/331129638578

He may ship if pushed.

Rob

[RayG]

Hi Rob,

I've got a Fuerda chuck on the rotary table, seems fine. I think you'll be happy with it.

Ray

[.RC.]

I thought Gator was the premium Fuerda brand?

[PDW]

Hi Rob,
I have a 130mm front mount Fuerda for my rotary table, it is a nice chuck.

I also have a 5" chuck from ozmestore, it is crap in comparison. When moving the jaws any decent distance there are obvious tight and loose spots. I have cleaned it out but this has not seemed to help.

As far as the Rivett goes i will be trying to find some genuine chucks, these have a small L type mount. I am yet to see one for sale though. I have found some genuine 4C collets but it will take a long time to build a complete set.....

Ew

I've got an L-00 Pratt-Bernerd EC collet chuck I don't strictly need given I don't have a lathe with that spindle nose (and have no intention of ever buying one). What size is your Rivett?

The plan has always been to 'modify' it to fit one of my other lathes but given it hasn't happened in nearly 10 years, probably never will (and it's a pity to butcher a tool if it's avoidable). I've a D1-3 version mounted on the Chipmaster, use it all the time.

PDW

[nearnexus]

I thought Gator was the premium Fuerda brand?

That's my understanding.

Rob

[Ueee]

I've got an L-00 Pratt-Bernerd EC collet chuck I don't strictly need given I don't have a lathe with that spindle nose (and have no intention of ever buying one). What size is your Rivett?

The plan has always been to 'modify' it to fit one of my other lathes but given it hasn't happened in nearly 10 years, probably never will (and it's a pity to butcher a tool if it's avoidable). I've a D1-3 version mounted on the Chipmaster, use it all the time.

PDW
Way too small for the BP collet chuck....It is only 7"x15", a bit smaller than a Schaublin 102. The original chucks were something like 3" 3j and 4" 4j. It has a 4C spindle nose so the plan is to buy all the 4C rivett collets i can find.....

Ew

[Bryan]

I bought a 6" Fuerda a couple of years ago and I'm happy with it. It's a 4 jaw so not a direct comparison perhaps, but the quality seems quite decent. I haven't used it enough to say anything about durability, but I would buy another Fuerda. It also came from General Tools.

[Toggy]

I have 3 of them; a 6" semi steel upmarket one for the lathe, unused as yet bet seems good; an 8" front mount 3 jaw on a rotary table I have no complaints with and then there is the 8" 4 jaw on the lathe. What a pile of crap, loose and mismatched jaws which have tight spots and is generally roughly made.

Ken

[franco]

I have two of them, a 160mm 4 jaw and a 100mm 3 jaw. The 4 jaw is not bad, but two jaws are a bit looser in the guides than I would have expected in a new chuck.

The 3 jaw works OK, but the scroll feels rougher than I expected. From memory they did not quote a maximum runout for the 100mm chuck, but they did for the larger sizes. Runout on mine is outside the figure for the next size up, but still acceptable for a 3 jaw chuck. The most irritating thing about it was that the mounting plan supplied for the chuck bore no relation to the chuck supplied - the diameter of the PCD for the mounting fasteners was incorrect, as was the fastener size. Yes, I should have checked the actual chuck before making the backplate to plan, but then I would not have three nice spare holes on the wrong PCD and wrong size in the backplate for decoration.

Frank.

[nearnexus]

I have two of them, a 160mm 4 jaw and a 100mm 3 jaw. The 4 jaw is not bad, but two jaws are a bit looser in the guides than I would have expected in a new chuck.

The 3 jaw works OK, but the scroll feels rougher than I expected..

Frank.

Well Frank, you are not alone there with your quality Fuerda chuck.

The 80 mm chuck felt the same - rough.

But then it got worse. Much worse.

I faced the mounting plate with the TPG and mounted the chuck and took readings.

With a 10 mm test shaft it ran out at 0.05 mm approx 20 mm from the chuck.

So I trued the jaws by hand and got it down to 0.01 mm

Moved to dial it in at 20 mm and got a whopping 0.1 mm runout - what the...................???

During this process the scroll felt rough and notchy.

Pressed on with the 20 mm set up and, whoops, did I just feel the teeth slip? Tried again. Yep, scroll gears are jumping teeth.

Took the back off and there's so much slop in the gears and driven plate that the damn pinion gears are sticking and now jumping teeth. All in half a day.

How crappy is that?

So it's back to the supplier tomorrow for a refund.

I don't want a replacement as I have no faith in the product.

Pure crap.

Rob

[scottyd]

A couple of years ago I had the joy of fitting five 125mm fuerda chucks to a collection of hercus 260's. The quality was variable in terms of accuracy. I tested them all with a 20mm bright rod at 50mm from the chuck face. The best (from memory) was 0.02mm and the worst was 0.14mm total runout. The others were all around 0.06mm or so. I wasnt real wrapped in them, I made great efforts to make sure the backplates ran bang on. With the really bad one, I thought I must have buggered it up, took another fine skim on the backplate and mounted the chuk in situ, didnt change a thing.

I just bought a Bison-Bial 160mm chuck for my own 260. Ive never seen more than 0.02 out of it across a range of diameters, often itll go close to bang on. Its about 6 months old now and its very very nice indeed, very rigid and repeatable. Mind you, it did cost me $550 bucks, which was more than i paid for the lathe...but it was my birthday present, so screw the haters. Ive been a lot more keen to use the lathe now that I can face and part off with confidence.

[PDW]

I just bought a Bison-Bial 160mm chuck for my own 260. Ive never seen more than 0.02 out of it across a range of diameters, often itll go close to bang on. Its about 6 months old now and its very very nice indeed, very rigid and repeatable. Mind you, it did cost me $550 bucks, which was more than i paid for the lathe...but it was my birthday present, so screw the haters. Ive been a lot more keen to use the lathe now that I can face and part off with confidence.

I just use a good quality 4 jaw. 3 jaw chucks are for repetition work where the workpiece is pretty much going to be machined in a single setup so slight runout doesn't matter. Bellmouthing definitely does though.

If I want runout less than 0.01mm and the work diameter is less than 40mm I use a collet. Over that, a 4 jaw. The 3 jaw chucks I just use for rough work. I even have one P-B chuck with a set of 'soft' jaws welded to the original jaws - just skim it or bore to diameter as required.

Yes, I'm a metal butcher.

Having said that I'm not knocking you for buying a good 3 jaw chuck. I just prefer to buy good 4 jaw ones myself as they can *always* be set to have the workpiece run concentric (or offset if required) and they hold a lot more rigidly than any 3 jaw chuck ever made which makes parting off & facing much less problematic. I just don't use a 3 jaw enough to warrant spending serious money on one.

PDW

[Anorak Bob]

Rob,

At one time Schaublin supplied Reishauer chucks along with those made by Pratt Burnerd, for their lathes. The dividing head on my mill came equipped with a 4 inch 3 jaw Burnerd chuck. The DH's spindle nose thread matches that of the 102.

Here's a cheap used Reishhauer - http://www.ebay.com/itm/Reishauer-Bani-Precision-4-3-Jaw-Metal-Lathe-Chuck-CNC-Schaublin-Bison-/321323685319

And here's a not so cheap :o tiny version for a 70 lathe. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Schaublin-70-Chuck-swiss-Reishauer-/111280633039?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19e8d7b4cf

Occasionally, Burnerd chucks appear on eBay in reasonable nick at reasonable prices. I bought an 80mm 3 jaw Griptru for about a hundred bucks 5 or so years ago though in all honesty I reckon a 4 jaw is easier to use .

Bob.

[nearnexus]

I've got an excellent 4 jaw Pratt Burnerd with the Schaublin, and also collets.

I wanted to use the scroll chuck for small not so critical stuff, and expected to get about 0.02 mm runout consistently from one - but not to be.

I took the chuck back to the store this morning and they were excellent about it, no problem.

They offered me a replacement, but I took a refund, as I had no confidence in the product.

I'm thinking now I may be better off fitting an ER collet head to the lathe instead of a small scroll chuck.

I use ER32 collets extensively in the head and tailstock of my CQ9325, and they are excellent - no sticking, 1 mm pull down tolerance, first class.

So I think I will look closely at the ER avenue.

The existing Schaublin collets I have only go to about 15 mm or so, and are imperial, but the biggest bug bear is that they only have very small pull down tolerance.

General Tools did offer me a 100 mm TOS for about $350 which was tempting, but that's about as much as the lathe cost.

Anyway at least the monkey is off my back and I can move on.

Cheers

Rob

[Stustoys]

I bought an 80mm 3 jaw Griptru for about a hundred bucks 5 or so years ago though in all honesty I reckon a 4 jaw is easier to use .

I thought the advantage of the Griptru was on multiple pieces....sure a little painful to set up but once done you have the speed of a self centering chuck with(close to) the accuracy of a independent chuck(at that diameter). A lot like(if you lathe is big enough) using a small 3 jaw mounted in a 4 jaw.

Stuart

[nearnexus]

While I had the test gear out I thought I may as well check the 5" Chinese no name brand scroll chuck that came with my CQ9325 lathe for runout.

0.02 mm at 20 mm diam and 0.04 mm at 10 mm diam not too shabby for a 10 year old lathe that's done a heap of work.

So if I can get that out of my old clunker, I should be able to get similar from a new chuck. Well you would think so :cool:

Rob

[PDW]

So I think I will look closely at the ER avenue.

The existing Schaublin collets I have only go to about 15 mm or so, and are imperial, but the biggest bug bear is that they only have very small pull down tolerance.


Since you've the small stuff covered I'd look at ER40 or whatever size goes up to the max spindle bore plus a bit.



General Tools did offer me a 100 mm TOS for about $350 which was tempting, but that's about as much as the lathe cost.


Bad comparison. It's not really relevant what you paid for the lathe, what is relevant is what you want to do with it. I once bought a lathe for $100, does that mean you think I should never buy a tool costing more than the machine cost me?

PDW

[nearnexus]

Since you've the small stuff covered I'd look at ER40 or whatever size goes up to the max spindle bore plus a bit.



Bad comparison. It's not really relevant what you paid for the lathe, what is relevant is what you want to do with it. I once bought a lathe for $100, does that mean you think I should never buy a tool costing more than the machine cost me?

PDW

Yes, ER40 is a good way to go.

And yes, I agree on your last point.

Something to think about.

Rob

[RayG]

Hi Rob,

What's the spindle bore size on the Schaublin 120? ER40 goes up to 1"

In any event, I think you should show some respect for the Schaublin brand by sticking with W20 collets, ( or is it W25? ) of course they are probably three times the price and unobtainable... :D

Ray

[scottyd]

I just use a good quality 4 jaw. 3 jaw chucks are for repetition work where the workpiece is pretty much going to be machined in a single setup so slight runout doesn't matter. Bellmouthing definitely does though.

If I want runout less than 0.01mm and the work diameter is less than 40mm I use a collet. Over that, a 4 jaw. The 3 jaw chucks I just use for rough work. I even have one P-B chuck with a set of 'soft' jaws welded to the original jaws - just skim it or bore to diameter as required.

Yes, I'm a metal butcher.

Having said that I'm not knocking you for buying a good 3 jaw chuck. I just prefer to buy good 4 jaw ones myself as they can *always* be set to have the workpiece run concentric (or offset if required) and they hold a lot more rigidly than any 3 jaw chuck ever made which makes parting off & facing much less problematic. I just don't use a 3 jaw enough to warrant spending serious money on one.

PDW

I absolutely agree with you. I didnt buy the bison because it would have so little runout, its just a nice side effect. Mind you, it gives you a bit of flexibility when things didnt go to plan. If I had collets, id probably use them, but for 90% of my work, the new chuck is plenty good enough. I do have a 4 jaw, but recently, the only time ive justified getting it on is when the bison doesnt have enough reach. I do have a pratt burnerd that came with the lathe, but whilst it runs true, the bell mouthing in it is so bad that all its good for is turning precision rounded triangles as the workpiece flops around. And dont even think about parting.

But back to the original point, I dont see why anyone would want to own such a fine machine and foist a below average chinese made chuck on it. Im also from the school of thought that I dont have lots of money and that the best way to waste it is to cheap out and buy the option that might not do the job to my satisfaction. After reading reviews of the bison, there was no mystery as to what I was getting. The fuerda could have gone either way in my experience.

[Ueee]

Hi Rob,

What's the spindle bore size on the Schaublin 120? ER40 goes up to 1"

In any event, I think you should show some respect for the Schaublin brand by sticking with W20 collets, ( or is it W25? ) of course they are probably three times the price and unobtainable... :D

Ray

As someone with a saved searches for Rivett collet, Schaublin Collet and Hardinge Collet on ebay i can tell you the W style collets are far more common then the 4C i am after, and not that expensive. Schaublin gear is only made from unobtainium, Rivett gear is made from weapons (or maybe surgical?) grade unobtainium....
Since i paid zip for the lathe i don't feel the need to scrimp on chucks and collets, if it costs me $1000 in gear then i still have a cheap lathe for what it is (will:rolleyes:) be.

Ew

[nearnexus]

Hi Rob,

What's the spindle bore size on the Schaublin 120? ER40 goes up to 1"

In any event, I think you should show some respect for the Schaublin brand by sticking with W20 collets, ( or is it W25? ) of course they are probably three times the price and unobtainable... :D

Ray

It's 22.5 mm by my measurement.

Ray I can't believe the prices Schaublin collets bring now.

I saw a dead centre collet for the headstock listed on fleabay at over $70 recently. I have one of those and probably 30 others, which is rather mind boggling when you add it all up.

They work OK but ER has better capabilities IMHO.

Rob

[eskimo]

According to the guy at General Tools where I got it, they've sold a lot to precision machinists in all sizes, and the feedback has been 100% good.



makes one wonder if its now 50%?

[nearnexus]

makes one wonder if its now 50%?

Ha Ha - good one.

Rob