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FenceFurniture
20th February 2014, 09:27 AM
It's probably about time to get an update on Stepdown transformers.

It seems highly likely that I will need to buy a router motor-only to fit to a router lift (I know some lifts will take normal routers, but not the one I'm thinking of - motors only). There are no motors-only of decent power available in Australia, which means either a 110-120V jobbie from the USA (which are the routers that all the lifts are made for) or perhaps something from Europe (certainly solves the electrickery problem, but the lift makers can't guarantee that they will fit the lifts properly).

And so it goes on. It seems that the best solution will be a 110v motor, for which I would then need a Stepdown Transformer, covering adequate power. The biggest motor on the USA market is 3¼HP, so say 2500 watts. This transformer (http://performanceshop.com.au/3000W-240V-to-120V-Stepdown-Voltage-Converter-8Zed_3164.html) should cover it, according to the website. For a smaller motor I may be able to drop down to the ST 2000, BUT it's probably a good idea to have ample power coverage - just in case another 110v tool lands in my shop.

The European option could be something like this from Germany (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sorotec.de%2Fshop%2Fproduct_info.php%2Finfo%2Fp2440_fraes-spindel-suhner-1800watt-230v-2500-23500-rpm-.html%2FXTCsid%2Fc517b3690de05c23b15d3d43a29c246a). I sent that link to the router lift manufacturer and he said it may be difficult to fit, but then he may have been taking the easy way out because of not being familiar with it. The only thing I can see that may be of concern is the overall length, but the body diameter of 104mm (? from memory) looks like a good fit to me.

This is the router lift (http://www.jessemdirect.com/Mast_R_Lift_Excel_II_p/02202.htm) that I'm looking at. No plunge router will fit (confirmed).

So, my question to the elec-heads is: am I on the right track with a transformer like that? What should I be looking out for? Is there a better solution?

I must say that a European built motor is appealing because of the quality - the USA ones are probably all Mexican or Chinese (certainly Porter Cable is now Mexican, and the quality is apparently down from some that I have read). Euro would also obviate the need for a transformer, so the cost increase for good quality is also negated.

Big Shed
20th February 2014, 10:02 AM
Perhaps they say it might be difficult to fit because the body of the European one is not round like most of the US routers. Also diameter of the body might be a concern as the shafts under the router lift are reasonably close together?

Have you considered something like this, as used in a lot of CNC router setups?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/FOUR-BEARINGS-2-2KW-AIR-COOLED-SPINDLE-MOTOR-ER20-INVERTER-DRIVE-/261203446783?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cd0f04bff

Bushmiller
20th February 2014, 10:33 AM
Brett

When I saw your thread I immediately thought of the CNC gear such as this:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/WATER-COOLED-SPINDLE-MOTOR-2-2KW-INVERTER-VFD-2-2KW-VARIABLE-FREQUENCY-DRIVE-su-/321128796066?pt=AU_B_I_Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item4ac4c48fa2&_uhb=1

Then I scrolled down and saw Fred's post. So that is two of us that have thought along the same lines. A quick glance showed motors from 1.5KW to 4KW, but the latter was over $700: Around $350 for 2.2KW. Google "VFD router" and it should bring up a selection. You would just have to check the body diameter to make sure they are compatible.

An added advantage is that with the VFD (VSD is the same thing) you will have a vast, infinitely variable speed range.

Regards
Paul

Bushmiller
20th February 2014, 10:52 AM
Brett

The possible advantage of the step down transformer is that you could conceiveably run other 110v devices using that transformer. The disadvantage is that the motors will run slower. 60Hz is 3600rpm while our power is generated at 50Hz and 3000rpm. The site indicated a 10% speed reduction, but I make that a 16% reduction.

One other point is that in a table mounted router I think variable speed is essential. One of the big advantages of the table mount is the facility to use larger diameter router bits safely. Once the bit diameter exceeds 25mm you need to be able to reduce the speed. A large panel raising bit may need to be run at close to half the maximum rated speed for example.

Regards
Paul

chambezio
20th February 2014, 10:53 AM
Mmmmm Brett......New Router Table.......you know what is next.......bigger shed.....you know what that means.....

Big Shed
20th February 2014, 10:55 AM
An added advantage is that with the VFD (VSD is the same thing) you will have a vast, infinitely variable speed range.



Another advantage is that they use the ER20 collets so they can cater for both Imperial and Metric size cutters, which could be a problem with the US and European routers, usually they cater for one or the other.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ER20-Precision-SPRING-COLLET-set-13-pcs-CNC-MILLING-LATHE-TOOL-WORKHOLDING-/151055869563?pt=BI_Tool_Work_Holding&hash=item232ba1a67b

1-13mm in 1mm steps

I think I would favour the air-colled spindle over the water-cooled, just another added complexity and I have never been an advocate of mixing water with electrickery.

A Duke
20th February 2014, 11:05 AM
Hi,
You can run less powerful items on a bigger transformer but you can not run more than the transformer rating, so buy one bigger than you need. Just to have a bit in hand.
Regards

FenceFurniture
20th February 2014, 11:23 AM
oops - didn't realise I had autoreload off.

Thanks Fred and Paul for your responses.

Fred I think he was just copping out from lack of knowledge, so maybe I can get the German vendor to send me a clearer diagram. To me, it looks like the body is a 104mm circle, with the corners added on, and I would have thought that could be mounted in the lift.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=304735&d=1392855024

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=304737&d=1392855032


Your link shows that the inverter is Huanyang (which I seem to see mentioned a fair bit in the forums). Are they a trustworthy brand? The motor is (so far) unbranded.

"and I have never been an advocate of mixing water with electrickery."
Yup, especially Chinese Electrickery. White man's magic sometimes.

Paul, yes I'm on top of the variable speed - already have that with the Triton that is set up in the current rather-too-small table.

Regarding collets, the Europeans seem to be on top of this far more than the yanks. E.g. Festool supply ¼ & ½" and 8 & 12mm collets for all their routers.

BobL
20th February 2014, 11:40 AM
. . . To me, it looks like the body is a 104mm circle, with the corners added on, and I would have thought that could be mounted in the lift.
The radius of curvature of the sides is much greater than 104mm.
The minimum circle that body will fit through is 115 mm
I'm not sure if you intend to hold the body. My understanding is they should be held by the solid metal behind the collet.



Your link shows that the inverter is Huanyang (which I seem to see mentioned a fair bit in the forums). Are they a trustworthy brand? The motor is (so far) unbranded.
Lots of people using these on the forum. So far I have only heard of one failing.

Skew ChiDAMN!!
20th February 2014, 11:47 AM
The biggest motor on the USA market is 3¼HP, so say 2500 watts. This transformer (http://performanceshop.com.au/3000W-240V-to-120V-Stepdown-Voltage-Converter-8Zed_3164.html) should cover it, according to the website. For a smaller motor I may be able to drop down to the ST 2000, BUT it's probably a good idea to have ample power coverage - just in case another 110v tool lands in my shop..

If I were you, I'd still go larger. After all you'll be driving a motor (regardless of size) so you should also allow for start-up current draw. I also couldn't see whether the 3000W rating is for continuous draw or merely peak.

The 4000W model is only a few bucks more... and it's always nice to have that safety margin when it comes to 'leccy ratings. :wink:

(Have I mentioned to you before that I've been playing with the idea of adding a 120V~ circuit to my shed since coming back to Oz? :D)

FenceFurniture
20th February 2014, 11:52 AM
The radius of curvature of the sides is much greater than 104mm.
The minimum circle that body will fit through is 115 mmBob, the holding mechanism is this:

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=304740&d=1392857320

The four brass-coloured parts. However, you may well be right about it being held by the 43mm collet, especially if the body is a plastic case.

Yes, understood about the radius, and needing a 115mm circle.

Bushmiller
20th February 2014, 11:57 AM
Another advantage is that they use the ER20 collets so they can cater for both Imperial and Metric size cutters, which could be a problem with the US and European routers, usually they cater for one or the other.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ER20-Precision-SPRING-COLLET-set-13-pcs-CNC-MILLING-LATHE-TOOL-WORKHOLDING-/151055869563?pt=BI_Tool_Work_Holding&hash=item232ba1a67b

1-13mm in 1mm steps

I think I would favour the air-colled spindle over the water-cooled, just another added complexity and I have never been an advocate of mixing water with electrickery.

Fred

I agree. I just picked the first listing that came up as an example.

Just out of interest we use water to cool our generator at work. In fact the conductors in the stator are hollow and we run the water through them. It is Demineralised water however, and it would be catastrophic if the purity became contaminated.

Regards
Paul

FenceFurniture
20th February 2014, 11:57 AM
If I were you, I'd still go larger. After all you'll be driving a motor (regardless of size) so you should also allow for start-up current draw. I also couldn't see whether the 3000W rating is for continuous draw or merely peak.

The 4000W model is only a few bucks more... and it's always nice to have that safety margin when it comes to 'leccy ratings. :wink:Good point, and agreed.


(Have I mentioned to you before that I've been playing with the idea of adding a 120V~ circuit to my shed since coming back to Oz? :D)Is that for tools that you and/or the Gal have from Canada?

Bushmiller
20th February 2014, 12:02 PM
Brett

I haven't looked deeply into this Master lift, but a couple of comments from a cursory glance are that it only appears to have two inserts to reduce the hole diameter for the bit and that handwheel looks like it would be an issue in a restricted workplace such as yours. In fact I am mindful of how concerned you were of protruding objects when you recessed knob for the HNT tail vice in your bench.

Knowing how well you research these things I assume you have looked at the Incra and Woodpecker offerings. They both have a wide range of insert reducers and height adjustment is from the top.

Regards
Paul

Skew ChiDAMN!!
20th February 2014, 12:10 PM
Is that for tools that you and/or the Gal have from Canada?

Yes and no. It's for the tools I want to get from Canadia if/when I install a 120V~ circuit. :D

I'm also keeping in mind that sometime in the future I'll be migrating the shed over there. Every time I've looked into it, it's more effective (& much cheaper) to buy 120V~ tools and run them here with a step-down than it is to take my current kit over there and try to run them on a 240 step-up.

FenceFurniture
20th February 2014, 12:13 PM
Thanks for looking out for me Paul ! :;

I think there are four hole reducers, and certainly you can buy blanks to make zero clearance.

Yes, the handle will stick out, but it makes adjusting the height very quick and accurate. I've never been a fan of needing a tool for the height adjustor, but then maybe I'm just wary of the clunkiness of the Triton in that regard (and a few other regards).

With the non-Excel version of it (i.e. without the handwheel and all built into the table top) there is a mod from Incra to allow for the Cleansweep (http://www.incrementaltools.com/category_s/335.htm) system of rings. Now this Cleansweep is a desirable bit of kit, that apparently works very well, but is not compatible with the Excel.

So, if I was going non-Excel, I could then get the Incra lift which is made by JessEm specifically to work with Incra tables. It is the same thing. Incrqa also make a mod for fitting the cleansweep to a JessEm table.

The whole thing is a real conundrum, actually, and I'll be posting in the routing forum to see what people think of this and that in there. Which table Incra or Jessem? Incra is offset and has the LS system, JessEm is a phenolic table with a very nice looking coping sled idea that runs along a chromed support bar.

ANyway, that side is for the routing forum.

Bushmiller
20th February 2014, 12:25 PM
Brett

May I ask a silly question? If you already have a Triton router, why do you need a table such as you are describing? Why not look at a plate which can be used with the Triton?

Triton is about the only machine that can be used on a table and still allows above the table bit changing. About three years ago I was in the same position. I wanted to buy a Woodpeckers plate (without the lift as the Triton doesn't need it), but PWS were in dispute with them at the time and had temporarily gone to Incra. I ended up buying this:

304744

The top three inserts came with the plate and the others were an additional kit I purchased at the same time. I have still not built the cabinet to house this because I am desperately short of space until the new shed becomes a reality. Consequently I cannot speak for how it work either. As you can see the inserts are all still in their plastic bags.

The facility to use a winder to raise and lower the machine is better admittedly, but you pays your penny and makes your choice. I can't remember the cost, but it was around the $250 mark and that was bought in Oz, albeir three or four years ago. I think you are looking at three times that price for your set up.

I have needed to use the above so many times and even right now I have a large job making mouldings for which it would be perfect. :((

Regards
Paul

BobL
20th February 2014, 12:32 PM
If I were you, I'd still go larger. After all you'll be driving a motor (regardless of size) so you should also allow for start-up current draw. I also couldn't see whether the 3000W rating is for continuous draw or merely peak.

See below. It sounds like its 2000W continuous and more than 3000W peak so it should be also able to handle the start up currents.
Remember what it's free running the 2000W router won't be pulling anywhere near 2000W
It's not like you run a router under load for more than a couple of minutes.




Product Code: ST-3000
Type: Autotransformer
Input Voltage: 240V AC
Input Frequency: 50Hz
Input Fuse: 15A
Output Voltage: 120V AC
Output Frequency: 50Hz
Continuous Output: 2000 Watts
Maximum Output over 1 Hour Period: 3000 Watts
Dimensions: 25 x 18 x 15.5 cms (LxWxH)
Weight: 11.7 Kgs
Input Cable Length: 54 cms
Colour: Black

FenceFurniture
20th February 2014, 03:02 PM
See below. It sounds like its 2000W continuous and more than 3000W peak so it should be also able to handle the start up currents.
Remember what it's free running the 2000W router won't be pulling anywhere near 2000W
It's not like you run a router under load for more than a couple of minutes.




Product Code: ST-3000
Type: Autotransformer
Input Voltage: 240V AC
Input Frequency: 50Hz
Input Fuse: 15A
Output Voltage: 120V AC
Output Frequency: 50Hz
Continuous Output: 2000 Watts
Maximum Output over 1 Hour Period: 3000 Watts
Dimensions: 25 x 18 x 15.5 cms (LxWxH)
Weight: 11.7 Kgs
Input Cable Length: 54 cms
Colour: Black

Heh heh. Mate if I was running a router for an hour, and it was pulling 2000w (or even close to it), I'd be a nervous bloody wreck at the end of it!

I do see Skew's point though - if ya gunna do it, do it properly for another $45, and have lot's of headroom. The bigger unit is about 4kgs heavier, and the dimensions are a bit bigger, but not too bad.

Paul, I am considering my answer. :D

BobL
20th February 2014, 03:44 PM
Heh heh. Mate if I was running a router for an hour, and it was pulling 2000w (or even close to it), I'd be a nervous bloody wreck at the end of it!

I do see Skew's point though - if ya gunna do it, do it properly for another $45, and have lot's of headroom. The bigger unit is about 4kgs heavier, and the dimensions are a bit bigger, but not too bad.


Don't forget that "Headroom" is ultimately limited by what mains circuits you can plug into.
The bigger unit will utilise its capability on a 15A+ circuit but not a 10A circuit.
If the bigger unit is used on a 10A circuit, the 10A circuit breaker will trip before the internal breaker on the bigger unit.

malb
20th February 2014, 03:53 PM
In the original link to the transformer, at the bottom below the data section, they have a Q&A type section, including running motors off the transformer. They reccommend uprating by a factor of 4-6 times for motor starting. This would be fairly common for induction motors etc.

Does the router motor you are considering have soft start? One of the great features of soft start is that the start currents are limited becase the supply voltage to the motor is ramped up over a couple of seconds. With a soft start motor, you could probably use that transformer for motors up to its 2000W rating safely, if you want more grunt at the motor you are probably looking to the next largest transformer. Remember also that in a router situation, you may be making a multitude of starts in a fairly short period, and the thermal effects of starting a hard starting motor will be cumulative.

They claim a 3000W peak rating for 1hr, but I would be suspicious of that for regular use. Regardlesss of load, the transformer core should be able to reach a stable temperature for the load applied within five minutes of use at that load. If a 3000W load takes it to a safe stable temperature within 5 minutes, it should be able to maintain that temperature and be safe on a continuous basis. A 1 hr rating seems very long for a peak load rating.

The transformer is identified as an autotransformer, which means that it has a single winding with 240V applied accross it, and it is tapped at the midpoint to take off 120v for the load. Any wiring errors in the unit itself, or the supply wiring, extension cords, outlets etc supplying the unit can mean that a load connected can be supplied from 240V with the return line floating at 120V, (motor sees the difference of 120V). In theory, the motor insulation should be able to withstand this voltage, but getting a supplier to document it as safe would be difficult, as it is generally assumed that one side of the connections would be at 0V.

I would also be having the supplier confirm the current rating of the outlets on the unit. It has two outlets, which should be wired in parallel for an autotransformer, but it quite likely that individual outlets will be rated for somewhat less than the full capacity of the transformer, and overloaded when asked to supply the rated output via a single outlet.

BobL
20th February 2014, 04:17 PM
. . . .Does the router motor you are considering have soft start? One of the great features of soft start is that the start currents are limited becase the supply voltage to the motor is ramped up over a couple of seconds. With a soft start motor, you could probably use that transformer for motors up to its 2000W rating safely, if you want more grunt at the motor you are probably looking to the next largest transformer. Remember also that in a router situation, you may be making a multitude of starts in a fairly short period, and the thermal effects of starting a hard starting motor will be cumulative.

I recently tested out what sort of start up currents my Triton router (3HP with soft start) required.
On slow speed the max start up current visible on a DMM was 5.7 A, on highest speed it was 7.5 A
Free running current on highest speed is 2.5A - time to reach free running current on startup was about 3 seconds
Interestingly once warned up the subsequent start up currents were a little less.

Compare this with start up currents of 35A on a 2HP DC, and 57A on a 3HP DC - DCs are of course loaded up with air to move right from the start.
The 2HP DC was supplied with a 10A plug and runs happily for hours on a 10A circuit.

A Duke
20th February 2014, 04:36 PM
Just to put a spanner in the works, do the Australian Wiring regs allow an auto transformer? I can't remember and am too lazy to look it up. I know they prohibit the high resistance leads that are used in some places to run 110/120V radios and lead lights etc on 220/240V mains.
Regards

FenceFurniture
20th February 2014, 04:59 PM
Don't forget that "Headroom" is ultimately limited by what mains circuits you can plug into.
The bigger unit will utilise its capability on a 15A+ circuit but not a 10A circuit.
If the bigger unit is used on a 10A circuit, the 10A circuit breaker will trip before the internal breaker on the bigger unit.Yep, got me a couple of 20A courtesy of NCArcher.

Malb, I sent an email to the supplier this morning querying the manufacture (used to be part Aussie, now fully......have a guess), and he raised the same point about accumulated heat. Don't know about soft starts yet - maybe some have it. As for get confirmation of currents etc - mate it's made in China - they'll put anything you want on it, and for no extra cost to boot!

Paul, I'm still working on your answer.

Bushmiller
20th February 2014, 05:19 PM
Paul, I'm still working on your answer.

:whistling::whistling::D

Regards
Paul

Bushmiller
20th February 2014, 05:23 PM
Don't know about soft starts yet - maybe some have it.

Brett

My interpretation is that the soft start refers to the machine and in the case of the Triton router it does indeed have a soft start. BobL's earlier post identifies the huge difference this can make to a starting current. It is another advantage of a VFD, if you decide to travel that path, in that the unit can be programmed for a soft start to limit the in-rush current on startup.

Regards
Paul

BobL
20th February 2014, 05:44 PM
Yep, got me a couple of 20A courtesy of NCArcher.

:2tsup:

FenceFurniture
20th February 2014, 06:25 PM
Well, 'Shmiller posed such a difficult bloody question :C that the answer required a new thread. :;
http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=182173&p=1749549

FenceFurniture
20th February 2014, 08:17 PM
Hmmmm....:think: the plot thickens.....

This Suhner jobbie is made in Switzerland and that makes it attractive
http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=304737&d=1392855032


The dealer is on deck now, and so I've been having some dialogue. The casing is plastic, so it obviously can't get too hot. It only takes a maximum 12mm collet (bugger, I've got a enough ½" shanks to make that a pain), but there is a ¼" collet available.

He doesn't think it's a good idea to hold it by the casing, but I have an idea. Starting with a metal cylinder that has a solid base (think of a cylindrical bucket):

put a 43mm hole in the centre of the base, and some way of securing the collar in there
cut the cylinder length down to sit in those "brass" jaws of the router lift at the right height
put enough slots in the wall of the cylinder to allow for the cooling of the plastic case


The question is: what is the maximum cylinder that those jaws can hold? Will email JessEm, and get a response after midnight, but in the meantime, what do you think of this idea?

Chas
20th February 2014, 09:15 PM
It's probably about time to get an update on Stepdown transformers.

It seems highly likely that I will need to buy a router motor-only to fit to a router lift (I know some lifts will take normal routers, but not the one I'm thinking of - motors only). There are no motors-only of decent power available in Australia, which means either a 110-120V jobbie from the USA (which are the routers that all the lifts are made for) or perhaps something from Europe (certainly solves the electrickery problem, but the lift makers can't guarantee that they will fit the lifts properly).

And so it goes on. It seems that the best solution will be a 110v motor, for which I would then need a Stepdown Transformer, covering adequate power. The biggest motor on the USA market is 3¼HP, so say 2500 watts. This transformer (http://performanceshop.com.au/3000W-240V-to-120V-Stepdown-Voltage-Converter-8Zed_3164.html) should cover it, according to the website. For a smaller motor I may be able to drop down to the ST 2000, BUT it's probably a good idea to have ample power coverage - just in case another 110v tool lands in my shop.

So, my question to the elec-heads is: am I on the right track with a transformer like that? What should I be looking out for? Is there a better solution?

I must say that a European built motor is appealing because of the quality - the USA ones are probably all Mexican or Chinese (certainly Porter Cable is now Mexican, and the quality is apparently down from some that I have read). Euro would also obviate the need for a transformer, so the cost increase for good quality is also negated.


Be very carefull, the use of this type of transformer (autotransformer) is expressly prohibited by Australian SAA Wiring Rules AS3000. To quote: "4.28.4.2 Prohibited use. Autotransformers shall not be used for reducing or controlling the voltage to equipment which is likely to be handled in normal use." For safety reasons you will need an Isolation Step-down transformer, which will be very expensive.

Chas.

FenceFurniture
20th February 2014, 09:24 PM
Chas, to be clear, does that mean if the device isn't being handled (as it wouldn't, in a router lift) it would be okay? Otherwise, how could they sell such a device as the one I linked to in Australia?

BobL
20th February 2014, 10:48 PM
Chas, to be clear, does that mean if the device isn't being handled (as it wouldn't, in a router lift) it would be okay? Otherwise, how could they sell such a device as the one I linked to in Australia?

Oh they can pretty well sell anything - it's up to an individual whether they choose to use it.

Good pick up by Chas, I didn't realise it was an auto transformer.

We used a number of auto transformers at work up until a few years ago when we got the official "cease and desist" notice and they were all disposed of. I managed to grab one :) and because this one could go to UP to about 300V I ended up running my dishwasher on it for about a year. We never had a problem but I have heard of problems with them.

The dishwasher case was unusual as there was something wrong with the dishwasher control board and it would not work at less than 240V. As soon as local supply V went down to less than that it stopped working. Anyway I drove it with the auto transformer set at 245V but after awhile that stopped working and had to use 250V and it kept creeping upwards. When it got to 260V I had to stop as it was just too dangerous to keep pushing it.

"Likely to be handled during use"" is unlikely to just mean "to rout wood". It would include things such as changing cutters and it wouldn't be sufficient to say I'll turn it off at the power point to change the cutter. Even cranking it up and down or touching the router table may constitute handling. Not handling in regular use would be a fan with a remote control or a remotely switched pump.

FenceFurniture
20th February 2014, 10:58 PM
Oh they can pretty well sell anything - it's up to an individual whether they choose to use it.

Good pick up by Chas, I didn't realise it was an auto transformer.

We used a number of auto transformers at work up until a few years ago when we got the official "cease and desist" notice and they were all disposed of. I managed to grab one :) and because this one could go to UP to about 300V I ended up running my dishwasher on it for about a year. We never had a problem but I have heard of problems with them.

"Likely to be handled during use"" is unlikely to just mean "to rout wood". It would include things such as changing cutters and it wouldn't be sufficient to say I'll turn it off at the power point to change the cutter. Even cranking it up and down or touching the router table may constitute handling. Not handling in regular use would be a fan with a remote control or a remotely switched pump.Cheers Bob, and I was kinda hoping you would say exactly that - remote control. That is how I operate the current Triton, with one of those remote sockets. In essence, the only time the router is powered on is when it's spinning. My intention would be to operate the transformer the same way (he says, hoping there's no obstacle to this). In other words, if I'm not handling it when it's powered, then it should be ok. - I think :B

NCArcher
20th February 2014, 11:33 PM
Although you start it up via remote control, when you push a piece of wood over an aluminium router plate that is connected to a 120V 60 Hz rated motor that is in turn connected to an auto transformer you are handling the equipment that has the potential to become alive.
IMO, phafing about with transformers and 50/60 Hz problems isn't worth the hassle.
These (http://www.gregmach.com/Machinery/Accessories/Mast_R_Lift.html) look good and would be my choice. They appear to be similar to the Unilift, which I have, and I am very happy with it. I could bring it along on the 2nd if you want a look.

BobL
20th February 2014, 11:51 PM
Cheers Bob, and I was kinda hoping you would say exactly that - remote control. That is how I operate the current Triton, with one of those remote sockets. In essence, the only time the router is powered on is when it's spinning. My intention would be to operate the transformer the same way (he says, hoping there's no obstacle to this). In other words, if I'm not handling it when it's powered, then it should be ok. - I think :B

I don't think you understood what I wrote.

""Likely to be handled during use"" is unlikely to just mean "to rout wood". It would include things such as changing cutters and it wouldn't be sufficient to say I'll turn it off at the power point to change the cutter. Even cranking it up and down or touching the router table may constitute handling. Not handling in regular use would be a fan with a remote control or a remotely switched pump."

This website has a good comparison between auto and isolating http://www.tortech.com.au/isocompare/?___store=default

Also this looks like what you should use http://www.tortech.com.au/category/stepdown-transformers/3500-watt-step-down-transformer
As Chas says "she no cheap".

Bushmiller
20th February 2014, 11:51 PM
Although you start it up via remote control, when you push a piece of wood over an aluminium router plate that is connected to a 120V 60 Hz rated motor that is in turn connected to an auto transformer you are handling the equipment that has the potential to become alive.
IMO, phafing about with transformers and 50/60 Hz problems isn't worth the hassle.
These (http://www.gregmach.com/Machinery/Accessories/Mast_R_Lift.html) look good and would be my choice. They appear to be similar to the Unilift, which I have, and I am very happy with it. I could bring it along on the 2nd if you want a look.

Tony

I have to agree with you on the 60/50Hz issue.

The router lift you have identified is the plunge version of the fixed base Brett is looking at, but I can see some stumbling blocks:

It doesn't fit the Triton (Unilift does)
It may be more than US$179 here in Oz, although I couldn't quickly see a price on the Gregory machinery site.

All those lifts are beautiful bits of gear. Excuse me, I have to go and wipe off some drool :wink: .

Regards
Paul

FenceFurniture
20th February 2014, 11:55 PM
Yes, I made mention of Gregory's in the other thread. Didn't get the chance to call today, to find out the price.......

Actually, I wouldn't mind having a look at it, if it's easy enough to bring along.

NCArcher
21st February 2014, 12:04 AM
It doesn't fit the Triton (Unilift does)
It may be more than US$179 here in Oz, although I couldn't quickly see a price on the Gregory machinery site.



I think it will DEFINITELY be more than $179. And Brett is looking at buying a new router anyway.
Plug and play. No messing about and full warranties as well. The 120V motors may not be covered by warranty if used with a transformer at a non rated frequency. Lower frequency draws more current for the same power output.

NCArcher
21st February 2014, 12:06 AM
Actually, I wouldn't mind having a look at it, if it's easy enough to bring along.

No problem. Whole thing just drops into the table. I just have to unplug the Wixey, although it's easy enough to bring that as well.:U

BobL
21st February 2014, 12:14 AM
Although you start it up via remote control, when you push a piece of wood over an aluminium router plate that is connected to a 120V 60 Hz rated motor that is in turn connected to an auto transformer you are handling the equipment that has the potential to become alive
Ah, . . . . . Yep! - thats what I meant to say in my post about handling


IMO, phafing about with transformers and 50/60 Hz problems isn't worth the hassle.
Yep again.

FenceFurniture
21st February 2014, 10:08 AM
I think it will DEFINITELY be more than $179.And you'd be right.

$465 inc Gst

NCArcher
21st February 2014, 10:27 AM
And you'd be right.

$465 inc Gst

$465 is not too bad. The Unilift was around $600 I think
EDIT: just checked - $655 but that included the Wixey which is $175

FenceFurniture
21st February 2014, 10:54 AM
Tony, what router are you running in your table?

NCArcher
21st February 2014, 03:20 PM
Tony, what router are you running in your table?
An old Makita 3600BR. Single speed but plenty of grunt. I'm waiting for it to die before I upgrade but it just keeps working.
That's the beauty of the Unilift type router lifts. I can mount any router in it.

FenceFurniture
21st February 2014, 05:43 PM
Ok then, the stepdown transformer idea has to go because it's just too expensive (well over a $grand just for the router motor if it's 110v).

I'm a bit of a persistent chuff, and I haven't yet finished with the idea of getting a European motor happening. I had a look at the Suhner site (the manufacturer of that red jobbie) and I have sent them an email with some questions and ideas for possible mods to it. The smaller 1050watt motor as a smaller diameter which would work (75mm from memory), but a) it's underpowered, although they are Swiss watts, not Chinese or Mexican watts, and more importantly b) the maximum collet size is 10mm, and that means the largest usable collet would be the Euro 8mm router bits.

Some of the questions that I asked them were:

can the red casing be taken off because the motor body is 90mm - just over the 88.9mm (3½") max of the JessEm lift, but there must be a bit of wriggle room so that the motor can be removed. However, I suspect the answer to the question will be an emphatic "Nein, dummkopf!" :smack: I'm also pretty sure that they would require it to be mounted by the 43mm collar anyway. That is difficult because it would make the motor sit too low in the Lift, and it wouldn't protrude above the table. Mind you, the USA system always has the motors held by the body, so it must work ok.....
Is it possible to make a mod so that it can take ER20 collets (I think not).
Have they got any other ideas? :C
Failing that, I'll ask them if they know of any other brands that could be investigated - not holding my breath


I did suggest to them that there may be quite a considerable market for a slightly smaller motor that can be used in such lifts - the entire European market, and our little speck, just for starters. That would also mean a fair bit of extra export business for the Lift makers. What are my chances do you think?:U

Bushmiller
21st February 2014, 09:03 PM
Brett

I'm frequently amazed at how you research and come up with solutions to problems and you have my sincere admiration in that regard. However, in this instance I am starting to wonder if you are trying to reinvent the wheel :).

With under table routers there are some fundamentals that have to be respected and in the case where you are starting from scratch you need very good reasons to flaunt them.

Firstly, the router needs to be of sufficient power. 3HP is pretty much a given or anything over 2100 watts. Actually 2250 watts is 3HP, but let's not get pedantic. For all those who jump up and down and say my 2HP machine is doing just fine, remember I am talking about starting from scratch. In fact my first "under the table" was a 2HP Ryobi, the second was a Hitachi M12V and now the large Triton.

Secondly we require variable speed so we can slow the machine when using larger diameter bits. Without this facility you are going to push the safety boundaries as eventually you will use a large diameter bit.

Thirdly it must have a 1/2" collet. Forget anything that hasn't got this. There is normally an adapter to enable the use of 1/4". I haven't seen 8mm router bits since the days of my ancient, deceased Ryobi from last century! Wherever possible always use a 1/2" shank even for a 1/8" straight bit.

Fourthly bit changing above the table is a real bonus. There are extensions available (x-treme or some such name I think) but this places extra, unwanted sideways pressure on the bits and should only be used if there is no alternative. Only the Triton offers this ordinarily. However the "lifts" make this possible for most routers

The router plates with their wind up mechanisms are superbly made. The plates have inserts to allow a wide range of diameter bits to be used safely and allow bit changing above the table. If you are concerned about sawdust clogging the winder hole don't be. I just know you will organise a close to perfect DE system and for the three grains you miss there is always a quick blast with the air compressor or a suck of the vac.

The Triton router, which you already have is ideal for positioning under a table. In fact, as I think you have also found, I am not too fussed about using it hand held as I find it top heavy so I only use under a table. If you don't use the Triton under a table and you don't like using it hand held, what will you use it for? As Tony mentioned, even if you replace it down the track, the uni lift, and probably the other offerings, accept different machines with very little adaptation neccessary.

The large Hitachi and large Makita with variable speed options would be good machines also.

Apologies if I sound dismissive of all your good work so far. It is just that we already have the wheel :rolleyes:.

Of course if you want to do large production runs you should be discarding this router thing all together and go with Pat's suggestion of a spindle moulder, which is a superior machine, but not so versatile and those cutters are expensive! You might spend $500 and end up with fifty cutters for a router (assuming a few sets here as well as individual bits) but the same thing for a spindle moulder will set you back thousands of $$$.

In summary I would go with one of the lifts to suit whatever router (240V plunge) you decide upon and spend the money you save on your precision fences and dust extraction.

I wish I could find the router cabinet a character called Dizzy built, but I think he got sick or died and the web link has disappeared.

Trusting that I am still persona grata chez Brett (how's that for a few mixed metaphors :cool:) I will await multiple replies and/or further threads :wink:.

Regards
Paul

FenceFurniture
21st February 2014, 09:42 PM
Well, you're partially right and other things are partially covered....

The Suhner is variable speed 2500-23,500 and it's 1800 Swiss watts (as opposed to Chinese "how many should we print on it" watts).

European router bits are 8mm and 12mm, and there is a 12mm collet for the Suhner. However, I agree that lack of ½" would be a bit of a pain in restricting the bits available.

I would sell the Triton more than likely.



I did have a rather left-field thought - what's the story with getting motors rewound.....can a 110v be pulled apart and rewound to 240v?

Alas, you may well be proved right Paul, and I may have to go with the version that Gregory's are selling. It's JessEm's international version apparently, so maybe it's available in the UK for a sensible price.....bit of Google....apparently Rutlands have them....yep here they are (http://www.rutlands.co.uk/sp+rout-r-lift-prestige+2320) ...no savings to be had though.

but what I DID find was this little sucker
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bosch-GMF1600CE-Multifunction-Plunge-Fixed-Base-Router-GMF1600-CE-GMF-1600-240V-/161199206606

a little under powered but not too bad. I don't see me using monster bits.

More research coming up....

FenceFurniture
21st February 2014, 09:51 PM
ooOOOOoooo this might be even closer still (http://www.sydneytools.com.au/products/17853-bosch-gof1600ce-bosch-1650w-12-in-plunge-router) as long as the body is no more than 3½" then that should do the trick.

Bushmiller
21st February 2014, 11:24 PM
Well, you're partially right and other things are partially covered....

The Suhner is variable speed 2500-23,500 and it's 1800 Swiss watts (as opposed to Chinese "how many should we print on it" watts).

European router bits are 8mm and 12mm, and there is a 12mm collet for the Suhner. However, I agree that lack of ½" would be a bit of a pain in restricting the bits available.

I would sell the Triton more than likely.



I did have a rather left-field thought - what's the story with getting motors rewound.....can a 110v be pulled apart and rewound to 240v?

Alas, you may well be proved right Paul, and I may have to go with the version that Gregory's are selling. It's JessEm's international version apparently, so maybe it's available in the UK for a sensible price.....bit of Google....apparently Rutlands have them....yep here they are (http://www.rutlands.co.uk/sp+rout-r-lift-prestige+2320) ...no savings to be had though.

but what I DID find was this little sucker
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bosch-GMF1600CE-Multifunction-Plunge-Fixed-Base-Router-GMF1600-CE-GMF-1600-240V-/161199206606

a little under powered but not too bad. I don't see me using monster bits.

More research coming up....

Looks like a nice unit and a bigger version of the one that DeWalt make. (Combination fixed and plunge). The body is not uniformly round. I don't know how much difference that makes.

A$835 plus freight!!

Regards
Paul

Bushmiller
21st February 2014, 11:29 PM
ooOOOOoooo this might be even closer still (http://www.sydneytools.com.au/products/17853-bosch-gof1600ce-bosch-1650w-12-in-plunge-router) as long as the body is no more than 3½" then that should do the trick.

Looks like the same model, but without the fixed base assembly. Same question over body shape. What is the advantage over the larger Makita (2100W) or Hitachi (2000W) variable speed machines?

There is no substitute for grunt when it comes to routers. Yes, a piddly little rounding over bit can be driven by a laminate trimmer, but see even a powerful router bog down when you get stuck in with a TGV bit, a large straight bit or a moulding cutter.

Regards
Paul

RayG
22nd February 2014, 03:15 AM
Be very carefull, the use of this type of transformer (autotransformer) is expressly prohibited by Australian SAA Wiring Rules AS3000. To quote: "4.28.4.2 Prohibited use. Autotransformers shall not be used for reducing or controlling the voltage to equipment which is likely to be handled in normal use." For safety reasons you will need an Isolation Step-down transformer, which will be very expensive.

Chas.

Good point and Interesting interpretation... the key phrase in there is "likely to be handled in normal use" .... you are not likely to handle the live wires in an appliance like a router in normal use.

An autotransformer like a variac is different in that you are quite likely to use it to power low voltage devices which have exposed wiring and are "likely to be handled in normal use".

I can't see that running a 110V double insulated applicance from an autotransformer is any different to running a double insulated applicance from the mains.

The relevant clause in the SAA is 1.19.3 ( referenced from 4.28.4.4 )
Which clarifies the matter as follows...

The voltage within any applicance or equipment may be reduced by a device such as a resistor, inductor or autotransformer, and may be applied to external component parts of such an applicance or equipment provided that -

a) all parts of the applicance or equipment, and all external component parts supplied therefrom, are insulated between the live parts and exposed metal for the full rated voltage of the circuit to which the applicance or equipment is connected; and

b) each such component part is clearly and indelibly marked with the rated voltage of the applicance or equipment as a whole and with particulars of the relationship of that component to the main appliance or equipment.

That $175 autotransformer is fine, and used for powering 110v double insulated appliances is in compliance with SAA rules.

Ray

FenceFurniture
22nd February 2014, 07:32 AM
I did have a rather left-field thought - what's the story with getting motors rewound.....can a 110v be pulled apart and rewound to 240v?



That $175 autotransformer is fine, and used for powering 110v double insulated appliances is in compliance with SAA rules. Ray
So :fireworks: or:blowup: ??

Ray, thank you for an obviously extensive amount of reading and consideration. I wonder how confident I should be (given that Auto transformers are apparently not supposed to be used here)?




Looks like the same model, but without the fixed base assembly. Same question over body shape. What is the advantage over the larger Makita (2100W) or Hitachi (2000W) variable speed machines?

There is no substitute for grunt when it comes to routers.Agreed on the power aspect Paul, but have you seen somewhere that the Makita or Hitachi can be removed from the plunge base? If not, they won't work, and looking at the Makita.com.au site they don't have one that comes apart.

Btw, I had an email overnight from JessEm to say that the Bosch should fit. The non-uniform body shape shouldn't matter I don't think (and I presume that you mean the square sectionfor registration at the front of the body) because the Lift grabs the body at four points so that could be set between two of them.

I might have to drop into Sydney Tools to have a close look (and their price is good too).

Bushmiller
22nd February 2014, 11:47 AM
Agreed on the power aspect Paul, but have you seen somewhere that the Makita or Hitachi can be removed from the plunge base? If not, they won't work, and looking at the Makita.com.au site they don't have one that comes apart.



Brett

I know this is all a little confusing and I have to say that it may be me that is confused. However it is my understanding that JessEm make at least two different router lifts.

There is this which you originally identified in your very first post, but it is intended for the US market where fixed base routers predominate and will only accept fixed base router (with their fixed base removed).

304997

I believe that your initial attraction to this model was the very appealing pricing.

The model to which I am referring is the one mentioned by Tony, which is available in Oz through Gregory Machinery and this accepts plunge routers without the need to remove the plunge mechanism. They identify a number of routers that are compatible in that they have a pre-drilled base. I also so note that they can supply a blank base and in effect this means that any plunge router will fit. However I would put a call into them regarding this aspect if you decided to pursue it.

304998

Most routers can be removed from their base whether fixed or plunge, but the issue is more the shape and diameter of the body and whether that will adapt to the clamping mechanism of the router lift.

The people who make up their CNC routers in effect do what you have researched and contemplated except that theirs is an overhead setup and yours is table mounted.

It does seem to me that any savings you might make with the plate for the fixed base style would be negated by the fussing and expense of procuring a suitable router. On top of that there is the question of will it work.

Of course if you looked at this suggestion of Tony's you would also have to compare the Uni-lift and anything else. The Incra lift is the built by JessEm for Incra and I noted that it has five hole inserts.

304999

Still plenty of room for some research :).

Regards
Paul

RayG
22nd February 2014, 11:49 AM
I wonder how confident I should be (given that Auto transformers are apparently not supposed to be used here)?



No fireworks or explosions, autotransformers are perfectly safe for this application, there are no regulations against their use. ( except where you can contact live terminals in normal handling. )

And in our case where the applicance is double insulated, it's no different to plugging into a normal power outlet.

Ray

NCArcher
22nd February 2014, 12:38 PM
No fireworks or explosions, autotransformers are perfectly safe for this application, there are no regulations against their use, except where you can contact live terminals in normal handling.

Ray
That's a very loose interpretation of the regs Ray. The regulations don't mention live terminals, they just say likely to be handled in normal use. They also say are insulated between the live parts and exposed metal for the full rated voltage of the circuit to which the appliance or equipment is connected;
I don't know what the 110V motors are rated to but we are connecting them to a 240V circuit. An autotranny has no separation between primary and secondary and has the potential to apply full voltage to the output. Hence their restriction of use.
That's my interpretation anyway. I still think it's way too much messing around when there are other options available.

RayG
22nd February 2014, 01:12 PM
That's a very loose interpretation of the regs Ray. The regulations don't mention live terminals, they just say likely to be handled in normal use. They also say are insulated between the live parts and exposed metal for the full rated voltage of the circuit to which the appliance or equipment is connected;
I don't know what the 110V motors are rated to but we are connecting them to a 240V circuit. An autotranny has no separation between primary and secondary and has the potential to apply full voltage to the output. Hence their restriction of use.
That's my interpretation anyway. I still think it's way too much messing around when there are other options available.

No, that's not a loose interpretation.. it's what the SAA regs say. and you are quoting fragments from two different clauses that should be read in context.
I don't want to start an argument on this, as I think the discussion has already moved on, and there are better options on the table.

Ray

BobL
22nd February 2014, 01:30 PM
No fireworks or explosions, autotransformers are perfectly safe for this application, there are no regulations against their use, except where you can contact live terminals in normal handling.
Ray


I agree the risk is low (we did it for ~40 years in our labs at work on many pieces of 100 - 120V equipment with only one minor incident) but there is always some risk, so saying it is "perfectly safe" may be misleading.

The problem with a 240/120V autotransformer is that if they short internally the full 240V can appear on the output side, which in terms of current is equivalent to suddenly exposing a 240V device to 480V.
The question that then arises is, can the device and insulation handle the resulting higher currents.

If the 110V device when exposed to 240V draws a current more than the fuse on the input side of the transformer the transformer breaker will trip, so it becomes a limited problem. The danger comes when the current drawn (by the 110V device now at 240V) is less than the transformer tripping current permitting the transformer to continue to supply the current and the heat generated by the extra current can cause a meltdown/fire - this is what happened in our one incident at work. Luckily the damage was confined to the device itself but it could have been a lot worse.

At work we had to demonstrate lowest possible risk because as it was explained to us meeting legal requirements is often not deemed sufficient by courts as meeting full duty of care.

We had a lot of devices driven by Variacs, some with the added safety feature of a self tapping screw to limiting the V - they were definitely a no-no, and we got rid of these without question as there were always too many tools laying around and it was deemed too easy for someone to remove the screws.

We also had a number of devices driven by fixed 100-120V autotransformers which we we very keen to keep and some devices even had fuses on their inputs which would have made them safe if exposed to 240V but they would not accept anything less than isolating transformers or replacement with 240V equivalents. The problem was compounded when we had the electrical safety inspectors around to look at the labs and as most of the stuff connected to the auto transformers was quite old (but still serviceable) it was described in their report as "the equipment is well beyond it's use by date and should be replaced". That would have been OK if the administration were prepared to stump up the money for its replacement but instead our research group had to find the funds ~$20k. I was off but I agreed because we had so many other OHS battles to fight that giving in on this one the least of out problems.

Work places may be (slightly) different to DIY setups but I still think it is important that FF and others know what best practice and solutions are available.

RayG
22nd February 2014, 05:13 PM
Hi Bob,

Your experience pretty much parallels mine, we would routinely use variac to control things like laboratory heaters, but always with a 1:1 isolating transformer ahead of the variac. A particularily nasty scenario is when you use a variac to power a low voltage circuit, that has exposed terminals and connections which would be handled in normal use.. ( which ordinarily would be safe). Then neutral and active is reversed.

Such an arrangement is explicitly prohibited under SAA wiring rules. And this is the prohibition that is covered by clause 4.28.4.2 that was quoted by Chas in an earlier post.

For what we are doing here with the router is covered by SAA clause 1.19.3 Which I quoted in full already. And as I keep re-iterating the use of an autotransformer is inherently no more dangerous than using a 3 pin power point.

Bob's point about transformer failure potentially leading to the 120V router getting 240V is valid, and a good enough reason to get a router rated for 240V operation, but the risk is primarily the destruction of the router not the operator.

Summarizing...

1. The point Chas made about SAA prohibition against autotransformers is correct but not applicable in this case.
2. Using an autotransformer costs an extra $175..
3. Bob's point about potential transformer failure putting 240V into a 120V appliance is valid.. ( although the risk is low, the risk is more to the router, rather than a personal safety issue per se.)

I vote for a 240V rated router.

Finally... From safety perspective, I'd be more concerned about a razor sharp bit of carbide spinning at 20,000 rpm. :)

Ray

BobL
22nd February 2014, 06:01 PM
Finally... From safety perspective, I'd be more concerned about a razor sharp bit of carbide spinning at 20,000 rpm. :)


Yep there are many other risks that we seem to forget about when we get into woodworking.
Probably the most dangerous thing we forget about regarding our hobby is drive to the hardware store.
That gives me an idea for a poll.

malb
22nd February 2014, 08:50 PM
I can't see that running a 110V double insulated applicance from an autotransformer is any different to running a double insulated applicance from the mains.

The relevant clause in the SAA is 1.19.3 ( referenced from 4.28.4.4 )
Which clarifies the matter as follows...

The voltage within any applicance or equipment may be reduced by a device such as a resistor, inductor or autotransformer, and may be applied to external component parts of such an applicance or equipment provided that -

a) all parts of the applicance or equipment, and all external component parts supplied therefrom, are insulated between the live parts and exposed metal for the full rated voltage of the circuit to which the applicance or equipment is connected; and

b) each such component part is clearly and indelibly marked with the rated voltage of the applicance or equipment as a whole and with particulars of the relationship of that component to the main appliance or equipment.


Ray

This thread originated with a discussion about operating a 2000-2500W US sourced router motor mounted in a router lift and powered by an autotransformer.

Ray's response appears reasonable as far as it goes, but are these US router motors, originally intended for fixed base routers, actually double insulated? I looked at internet specs and downloaded user manuals for the Porter Cable units in the power range, and found them rather obtuse in regard to insulation. Neither the web specs or manual for any of the units I checked would specify that the unit was double insulated.

The manuals were ambiguous in stating that if the unit was fitted with a 3 pin plug it needed to be connected to an appropriate earthed socket, or if it was double insulated it would be fitted with a polarised plug (one terminal wider than the other) and if the plug would not fit into a socket, attempt to reverse it's orientation to connect and if that fails, contact an electrician and have a polarised socket installed. The manuals also include a warning not to make contact with earthed metal objects while operating the unit.

These statements appear to be part of of the standard Porter Cable pro forma manual layout, so while they raise hope that there might be a double insulated unit available, they do not do anything to confirm absolutely whether the units are double insulated or not.

Of course, there are other suppliers of fixed base router motors, I haven't checked them all, but a basic assumption that they would all be double insulated like plunge routers in Australia may be unsound.

RayG
22nd February 2014, 11:33 PM
Are Porter and Cable routers double insulated or not?

Interesting question, you'd think it would be easy to answer, but the manuals and documentation are not clear at all... the only thing I've been able to establish is that all the ones I've found pictures of have the double insulated symbol, regardless of what their documentation says.

305099

Ray

soundman
22nd February 2014, 11:49 PM
Weighing back in on the autotransformer issue.

The standards are very clear......you simpley can not use an auto transformer with an appliance...any appliance... a router is an appliance....no matter what you do to or with that appliance.

The exception paragraph in th standards is to allow the use of auto transformers within equipment, in general where the transformer and the item connected to it is enclosed within the housing of the equipment....not handled means not able to be touched in normal operation.

They do all sorts of things overseas...especially in the US that simply would not be entertained in Australia

I don't care how optomistic your reading of the standards are, the auto transformer is clearly illegal in this application.

As far as being safe....no they are not......people fail to understand that multiple failures occur.....most of the layers of electrical safety measures and the stereotypical examples account for multiple failures....as a working technician I can tell you a great many items that stop working have multiple failures....every time I do a test and tag session I find something that is not compliant or not safe.

Proper Australian legal isolating step down transformers are much larger, heavier and more expensive than autotransformers...making the whole exercise impratical in most cases.

Surely there is a 240V router available to do the job.
What are all the CNC routers using.

Do Porter Cable not make product for 240V markets any more.

cheers

FenceFurniture
23rd February 2014, 12:59 AM
Well I've just returned home after being out all day and evening. I'll go through the latest posts in more detail tomorrow, but in the mean time thanks to all the contributors.

If the Bosch GOF 1600 will fit then that is obviously the best choice, although a little more power would be good. It's an Aussie model, and locally available. A visual in person check will determine if it will work or not. I can also take some pics of it and send them to JessEm just to make sure.

However, in the mean time I think it's a good idea to thrash the issue out because it has implications for a great many people who may consider other 110v tools. For the same reason I believe it's a good idea to get the issue resolved, not just for my benefit, but for anyone else who may consider going down this router lift path.

Soundman - AFAIK Porter Cable used to put a 240v version of the motor into the Aussie (and I suppose British) market, but that stopped a few years (at least) ago.

Maybe it is time to resurrect my struck out question of whether or not a 110v motor can be legitimately rewound to 240v? If it can then I presume it would have to be inspected and tagged?

Ray, what I meant by the fireworks icon was "party time or a blown up idea" but looking at it now I see the ambiguity...:U

Paul, yes the lift being brought in by Gregory's does have a blank available, and so can be drilled for the Triton (or anything else that will fit). Without checking the facts (there's a fair bit going on upstairs atm :roll:) there are some other reasons why that particular router lift would be second choice, but I'll have to go back over it. Most certainly it will yield a result, but there's a couple of naggers that I'm a bit too weary to remember properly right now.

soundman
23rd February 2014, 09:29 AM
no doubt a motor in theory could be rewound, but the cost would be prohibitive.

The issue of inspecting and testing is a non issue because that would be the responsibility of the rewinder.

It occurs to me that the router lift companies have not moved with the times...20 years ago there where quite a few largish routers with round bodies that fitted into their basses....but with plunge routers beeing the norm, large routers with round bodies are pretty well non existant.

By the time you have fiddled arround and gone to all this expense, you could have built a router lift to suit your router of choice from first principles.


As far as the whole 110 volt power tools in Australia......its been done to death in the past and it just is not viable unless the tool in question is very expensive, specialised and no alternative is available in 240V

There are a lot of things we pay way over the odds for in this country due to the "australia tax", but power tools we do pretty well on compared to the US and UK.

cheers

FenceFurniture
23rd February 2014, 10:18 AM
no doubt a motor in theory could be rewound, but the cost would be prohibitive.Rightio, it was just a thought to put out there. Scrub that one out.




It occurs to me that the router lift companies have not moved with the times...20 years ago there where quite a few largish routers with round bodies that fitted into their basses....but with plunge routers beeing the norm, large routers with round bodies are pretty well non existant.I think it's more a case of the router manufacturers not moving with international times. They produced the motor-only versions specifically for lift/table users living in the USA. Strip of the frills and you have a more affordable product with less clutter under the table. A great idea. Being as insular as they are (are they double insular? :D) they haven't quite worked out that people outside the USA might like to use Lifts/Motors too. I suspect that there is quite a sizable market outside the 110v market.




There are a lot of things we pay way over the odds for in this country due to the "australia tax", but power tools we do pretty well on compared to the US and UK. cheersYes, depending on the brand we often do better, which is a bit of a Paradox. I got a quote on the Bosch from Germany and it's actually more expensive (even without freight). Makita and Bosch seem to be very well behaved in this respect (as are Lie Nielsen).

You'd have to think that there are more fixed base routers on the market, beside the Bosch, so I have some research to do there. If nothing else turns up that has more than 1600W, and I can verify that the Bosch will fit without any issues (after removing the base), then that is the way I will go. I'll go to Sydney Tools for an inspection the week after next.

Bushmiller
23rd February 2014, 10:20 AM
no doubt a motor in theory could be rewound, but the cost would be prohibitive.



Soundman

That's my take on it too. Possible, but totally impractical. Rewinding motors only becomes economically feasible when you are in the large motor category and that's a lot larger than any domestic setup.

Regards
Paul

RayG
23rd February 2014, 12:31 PM
Just to take the autotransformer option off the table. The latest version of AS 3000:2007 has the following clause

305133

Ray

soundman
23rd February 2014, 12:33 PM
I think it's more a case of the router manufacturers not moving with international times. They produced the motor-only versions specifically for lift/table users living in the USA. Strip of the frills and you have a more affordable product with less clutter under the table. A great idea. Being as insular as they are (are they double insular? :D) they haven't quite worked out that people outside the USA might like to use Lifts/Motors too. I suspect that there is quite a sizable market outside the 110v market.



The router lift market would in fact be very small.

There are a whole pile of woodworking things that are pretty well perculear to the US and not considered a good idea in most other parts of the world.

Most of the round base routers would be hang over product from the pre plunge router days.......this explains why there are pretty well NONE, in the high power 3Hp pluss range.

Back in the day of fixed base, 2Hp was considered a big router.
The Hitachi TR12 was a revolution when it came out, big powerfull and plunge....we all went :cl: when we saw the advertising for the M12V and :hpydans: when we got our hands on them and the crop of 3hp machines that followed.

I am sort of surprised that there is not a product arround suited to the low end CNC market.

In the upper CNC market they either use indction motors straight off the end of the shaft for relativly slow RPM tools or an induction motor with a jack shaft that carries the tool for higher speeds.

Which brings us back to the spindle moulder option.

I owned a spindle moulder for a few years and for doing rebates and pushing large diameter tools, it makes anything router bassed look very weak....this thing would pull a 10mm x 20mm rebate out of a lump of pine in one pass clean & sharp and be looking for more...even my 3.5 Hp porter cable would be taking 2 or 3 passes to do that.

Mine had the facility to mount a 1/2 inch router collet in the shaft, but the shaft speed was way too low for small diameter tools at arround 10 000 rpm.

The tooling for a spindle moulder my be expensive...but for pushing large diameter profiles and removing a lot of material in one pass...there is simply no competition.

Back on the matter of the cost of tooling......in the complex profiles, there is no argument about the ongoing cost of tooling..though replacing the cutters is cheaper than replacing the whole head..........but in the straight profiles like rebating heads, the initail purchase price might be a sting.....but replacing the edges is very cheap.....a standard 50mm straight blade comes with two edges and can be had for arround $2-3.....the square scribe blades have 4 corners and 4 edges and can be had for arround $1-2 a piece...if you buy in the right place box or bag at a time......and the carbide is good

OH and remember at least half the spindle moulders can tilt the shaft..so that single straight rebating head will do rebates, edge trimming, chamfering (at various angles) and groving

Oh and a spindle moulder with an induction motor is a hell of a lot quieter than a router.

Just some thaughts

cheers

FenceFurniture
23rd February 2014, 01:09 PM
Basically, I'm visiting sites of all the router manufacturers to see what they have:

Brands where are result can't be found:
Mafell (http://service.mafell.de/index.php?IdTreeGroup=12965&IdProduct=24865)produce a 3½HP model, but it won't fit.

Kress (http://www.kress-elektrik.com/Power-tools.71+M5aabe1784b7.0.html?&tx_commerce_pi1[catUid]=17&tx_commerce_pi1[mDepth]=1&tx_commerce_pi1[path]=2%2C68) produce Milling motors, but not of sufficient power, and they are also 43mm collar mounted (makes it's difficult to mount in a Router Lift)

Suhner (http://www.suhner-transmission-expert.com/site/index.cfm?id_art=14350&vsprache=EN) I have already covered - (fairly good power, but collar mounted)
http://www.suhner-transmission-expert.com/site/index.cfm?id_art=14350&vsprache=EN

Hilti (https://www.hilti.de/#/stage1/topnavigation-link-1_foldout/)don't appear to make Routers (Frasen, or Oberfrasen)

Fein don't appear to make routers any more, but there may be one for the USA market.

Hitachi make a similar unit to the Bosch GOF 1600, but I can't find a 240v version

Makita, Metabo, Milwaukee, Narex, AEG, have nothing suitable in 240v

Porter Cable left Australia before 2007



Brands that yield a potential result:
Bosch make a 2000w model, but it doesn't come apart like the GOF 1600 (http://www.bosch-professional.com/de/de/gof-1600-ce-23292-ocs-p/)

Felisatti (http://www.felisatti.es/?ap=productos&fam=21&id=226) have a similar option to the Bosch. This idea came from an exhaustive list of tools that Gerhard The Legend sent me a couple of years ago. About A$550




There is an Aussie company Multicam (http://www.multicam.com.au/wood_series.html) who make CNC router systems, so maybe they have some ideas on motors.


Can anyone think of any other potential brands of routers?

Big Shed
23rd February 2014, 01:56 PM
I may have missed it, but what was wrong with the aircooled spindle and VFD so commonly used on CNC routers as suggested by Bushmiler and myself?
I seem to remember a comment along the lines of "Chinese electronics". Lots of forum members use these Chinese VFDs, but one can buy more expensive European ones. As I look around most people's houses there appears to be a lot of "Chinese electronics" around.

Or, an even dumber question, what is wrong with the Triton TRA001 you already own.

Numerous forum members, including myself, use one of those in our router tables with great success.

FenceFurniture
23rd February 2014, 03:03 PM
Yes, this one (http://www.ebay.com/itm/FOUR-BEARINGS-2-2KW-AIR-COOLED-SPINDLE-MOTOR-ER20-INVERTER-DRIVE-/261203446783?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cd0f04bff). There's probably nothing wrong with it Fred, and it looks like a good option (takes ER20 collets for one thing. I imagine that the jaws on the lift will go down to 80mm, but will need to verify of course.

There are a couple of things that I don't understand about (but that's just me):
It says 1 or 3 phase input, so I presume it can be connected to either source, rather than specifying one when purchasing
Output 3 Phase so I presume the spindle motor is 3 Phase.
I can't see a spindle lock on there (for changing collets/bits) but it must surely have one.

I think it may have slipped down the list when the discussion about auto/isolated transformers got going. O'course, I know very little to nothing about such matters (although I know a bit more now :) and probably remembered it as a transformer rather than an inverter.

From eHow (http://www.ehow.com/facts_6835383_difference-between-electrical-inverter-transformer.html), a transformer changes AC voltages, and an inverter changes DC to AC.

The only other thing is that it's an extra box to deal with (just as any transformer would be) but in this case I'd have to make a spot for it very close to the motor because all the controls are on the inverter (rpm speed in particular).

So, yes it could be a good option. Price looks reasonable - free shipping too. I imagine that it probably doesn't have soft start, but that's not the end of the world either.

BobL
23rd February 2014, 03:05 PM
I may have missed it, but what was wrong with the aircooled spindle and VFD so commonly used on CNC routers as suggested by Bushmiler and myself? .

I have thought about these spindles especially as I see ER20 collets are commonly used size. One thing I wonder about is how they would work upside down and belong air cooled which way they blow the air?
Anyone know about these?

Big Shed
23rd February 2014, 03:14 PM
The only other thing is that it's an extra box to deal with (just as any transformer would be) but in this case I'd have to make a spot for it very close to the motor because all the controls are on the inverter (rpm speed in particular).



The front panel where the pot for the speed control is can be mounted away from the box and connected via a cable.

BobL
23rd February 2014, 03:14 PM
It says 1 or 3 phase input, so I presume it can be connected to either source, rather than specifying one when purchasing
Correct

Output 3 Phase so I presume the spindle motor is 3 Phase.
Correct

I can't see a spindle lock on there (for changing collets/bits) but it must surely have one.
This maybe spindle dependent.

From eHow (http://www.ehow.com/facts_6835383_difference-between-electrical-inverter-transformer.html), a transformer changes AC voltages, and an inverter changes DC to AC.
The VFDs we are referring to are much more than an inverter.
They take 3 or single phase with a fixed frequency as an input and convert it to DC which is then converted to 3 phase output with an operator determined or variable frequency.

The only other thing is that it's an extra box to deal with (just as any transformer would be) but in this case I'd have to make a spot for it very close to the motor because all the controls are on the inverter (rpm speed in particular).
Provided it has sufficient ventilation the VFD can be tucked right out of the away and a wired remote switch/speed and other controls can be (many metres away) conveniently located for the operator.

So, yes it could be a good option. Price looks reasonable - free shipping too. I imagine that it probably doesn't have soft start, but that's not the end of the world either.
The whole idea of a VFD is that they can be programed to have a start over pretty well any length of time so they all have soft start.

Big Shed
23rd February 2014, 03:15 PM
I have thought about these spindles especially as I see ER20 collets are commonly used size. One thing I wonder about is how they would work upside down and belong air cooled which way they blow the air?
Anyone know about these?

Bob, they are also available as a water cooled unit.

BobL
23rd February 2014, 03:19 PM
Bob, they are also available as a water cooled unit.

Good point - that would make dust extraction via a sealed enclosure much simpler.
With an air cooled spindle the motor cooling air would be constantly contaminated by dust and I wonder how they would like that - not to mention the mincing of fine dust into even finer dust.

FenceFurniture
23rd February 2014, 03:25 PM
The front panel where the pot for the speed control is can be mounted away from the box and connected via a cable.Ah, I think I see - a couple of fingers into the semi-circle and pull it out. You'd think that they would want to show that feature with a pic....



I have thought about these spindles especially as I see ER20 collets are commonly used size. One thing I wonder about is how they would work upside down and belong air cooled which way they blow the air?
Anyone know about these?I would be mounting it in an enclosed, but vented cabinet, connected to a DE so plenty of ventilation to keep it cool.

BobL
23rd February 2014, 03:43 PM
I would be mounting it in an enclosed, but vented cabinet, connected to a DE so plenty of ventilation to keep it cool.

I doubt whether they will survive long term inside even a vented router cabinet because the motor cooling loop would generate a much higher local air pressure than a DC so they would always be sucking some of tdust inside themselves.
I'd definitely be getting some advice from the CNC people. Remember CNC operations have the spindle above the dust and they usually pull the dust out to the side. In a router situation some of the dust will be constantly falling onto the spindle and maybe even drawn into the motor cooling loop.

The controls on most VDFs are kinda small and fiddly so it is usually much easier to make an outboard set of controls that is convenient mounted for the operator.
Here is how I did my WW lathe.
The Fwd/STOP/Rev and speed controls are in the white box.
The VFD is mounted above so the display (usually frequency) can be easily seen and any programming be conveniently done. Even though the VFD is close to the headstock the dust extraction is so good on the typical small work I do that no detectable dust gets drawn through the VFD.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=305174&stc=1

Same with my DP.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=257633&stc=1

Bushmiller
23rd February 2014, 05:50 PM
Brett

I think the thread may have travel almost full circle. :D

Posts #2 and #3 cover most of the recent questions. The body of a 2.2KW motor appears to be 80mm diameter so the last remaining question is will it fit in the Jess Em?

I couldn't see where the maximum body size was stated, but you make reference to not fitting so I am assuming you have the dimension somewhere.

This is another link:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-2KW-WATER-COOLED-SPINDLE-MOTOR-ER20-INVERTER-VFD-C-/250748917429?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a61ccd6b5

I still have to look at the "Cleansweep" (tonight) so I don't know if these motors are compatible in that regard. Water cooling will take care of the dust aspect as noted by BobL. Oh, there remains the issue of bearings when mounted upside down, but I would be surprised, frankly, if that is an issue. Lateral forces are the big issue with a router.

Regards
Paul

Regards
Paul

Robson Valley
24th February 2014, 09:40 AM
Interesting.
Modern Canadian house wiring is 3-wire with a 240VAC house-feed. That implies that red and black are hot and white is neutral. Green is ground, as usual.
I see 240 across the red and black, 120 on each side of the white. The application is that the kitchen plugs can be in the same duplex outlet but on two different 15A circuits. I rigged a plug that gave me 240 in the kitchen for the coffee pot and electric frypan plus other household stuff that came back with me from OZ.

The motors look like a dead short when they start. The inrush current to get them rolling is about 2X the running amps, it's enough to dim a light in the same circuit. eg my fridge and my dining room light fixture!

If you had a 240VAC line at 15 amps, that's just nice to feed a 3.5kW stepdown, as most of our smaller power tools don't suck more than 12-15A @ 120VAC.

Elill
17th August 2014, 05:21 PM
Any updates on this? I am going through the same thing myself without any luck

FenceFurniture
17th August 2014, 05:59 PM
No

Elill
21st August 2014, 07:49 PM
I emailed incra about this the other day. Here is the response regarding mounting a 100mm spindle:

You are correct, the 100mm diameter is between the midsize routers and the 3hp models. Your best bet would be to get a lift that would accommodate either the Porter Cable 7518 (4.200") or the Milwaukee 5625 (4.140") and then coming up with a shim or spacer to take up the excess clearance. A 0.131" thick spacer would be appropriate for a router lift carriage that's set up to accommodate the Porter-Cable 7518. Either our PRL-V2 or the MastRLift - II would work just fine.