Making a Saw

[Christos]

To start with I have never made a saw from the very beginning and I have limited knowledge on sharpening. I have attended two sessions with The Traditional Tool Group saw sharpening and the second time around it does become a little better in remembering what to do. But saw sharpening is not what this thread is about.

Just before I get to my questions I think some background is necessary. In the Announcement sub-forum there is a saw maker that purchased too much of a certain thickness of saw blade. Take a look here for those that have not seen the post, http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=183511

So after looking at this thread I am thinking that I can make myself two tenon saws. One used for rip cuts and the other for cross cuts. Based on this information here are my questions.

What would be the best thickness for tenon saws?
How many saw nuts would normally be used in tenon saws?
Can the saw nuts be source locally?

[Christos]

Couple more question?

What would be the best length for a tenon saw?
How would someone go about cutting the plate?

[burraboy]

Some good questions there Christos. I can't answer many of them, I think much of it depends on personal preference and intended usage. Two or three nuts seem to be the most popular. I don't know if they are available locally but they seem to be expensive! Chicago nuts may prove to be an alternative to saw nuts, much cheaper, but have smaller heads (10mm as far as I can see). Perhaps they can be used with washers underneath. It would be interesting to see other more experienced makers thoughts.
I went to a TTTG saw session a couple of weeks ago. A bit chaotic! I did pick up some technique but I'm glad I did a lot of homework beforehand.

[michael_m]

Thanks for asking the question Christos, I was thinking exactly the same thing!

[IanW]

.... here are my questions.

1. What would be the best thickness for tenon saws?
2. How many saw nuts would normally be used in tenon saws?
3. Can the saw nuts be source locally?

Christos, these are all 'depends on...' questions, but here's my stab at answering. There will be other opinions, I'm sure, so you make the final decisions..

1. If I were making tenon saws, I would choose the thickness of the plate partly on the basis of how many tpi I planned to give it, & just how big I planned to make it. For 'average' tenon saws of around 300mm long by about 80mm wide, I think the 25 thou plate would be excellent, It will take up to about 12 tpi comfortably, which is the maximum number I'd give a saw of that size. Small teeth in thick plate are not a good fit, they distort too much with pliers-type sets, for starters. If I were going to make a whopper, say 450mm long & up, I would probably use the 30 thou plate, but I would not be trying to tooth it any finer than 10 tpi.

2. For a back saw up to around 350mm, I would use two handle bolts; from 350 and up, three. That's partly for looks & partly for structural reasons.

3. Not usually, I made a batch for the saw-making w'shop, but it's tedious & unprofitable work making them one by one on a simple lathe!



Couple more question?
4. What would be the best length for a tenon saw?
5. How would someone go about cutting the plate?

4. Again, it depends. People's preferences in back saw sizes vary widely. Think about what you are most likely to cut with it, & how big & beefy you are. For general cabinet-work & the odd slightly large job, like bench legs, a 300mm saw is a good compromise between bulk & giving you a saw with a good stroke length, ease of control, & it's easy for you to see around it to follow what you are doing. I find a 300mm saw with 10 tpi ideal for that sort of work, but your mileage may vary [edit: I should have mentioned that when you say 'tenon' I tend to think of a rip saw, where 10 tpi suits me, but a crosscut saw in that size I would prefer to be around 12 tpi]. If you regularly cut mitres in 75mm or wider stock, for e.g. you would almost certainly prefer a longer saw.

5. Mark the line where you want to cut with a fine marker-pen or scratch it with a sharpened drill bit (I use the end of an old triangular file ground to a sharp point as a metal scribe). If you are using blued plate, a scribe-line shows up very nicely. Clamp the saw plate between two straight pieces of steel, which act as a heat-sink, & also a guide to cut it with a 1mm metal cutoff wheel in an angle grinder. For rounded sections, or to trim the bit that fits into the handler, you can quickly gnaw away most of the waste on a grinder, then clean up with a file. Thin plate heats up very little if you use a properly-dressed wheel. It takes firm pressure to prevent chattering, but don't go hog-wild or you might blue it severely. A little blueing near the non-functional edges is neither here nor there, and will sand off with fine emery paper, but be careful with any cut you wish to use for the the tooth-line. You shouldn't need to touch that part of your blank, anyway.

Good luck, it's all pretty straightforward, really. Just take your time & don't be afraid to ask questions of the panel...
Cheers,

[hiroller]

I think you'll find the answers over in this sub-forum:
http://www.woodworkforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=278

There is a full turorual here: http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=182853
There is a current WIP from Pac Man here: http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=182244

[homesy135]

I also wondered about this. I think it is very much a personal preference.

I went to the Lie Nielsen and Veritas websites and had a look at their saw plate thicknesses. I decided it was the 0.025" that would be most suitable for me. I find the thin plate too delicate.

As to the size of the saw, it is my understanding that the size of the intended joinery determines the saw size. If you intend to cut large tenons for dining room tables or farm gates then a large tenon saw called for, perhaps 16 or 18 inches long and 5 inches deep. Correspondingly, a smaller saw 12 to 14 inches long and 3.5 or 4 inches deep is all that is required for cabinet work (chests of drawers, boxes, etc).

I would look at the thicker plate for a larger tenon saw.

I've bought saw nuts and bolts from Blackburn Tools (http://blackburntools.com/new-tools/new-saws-and-related/saw-bolts/index.html) in the past for my saw rehab efforts. Very good product. Alternatively, modern saw nuts (not split) are regularly listed for sale on eBay. These are usually Disston brand and would do the job.

[planemaker]

All saw makers may very slightly in thought but as a general guide to matching depth of saw plate to gauge used: IMO

1 1/2 to 2 inch below the spine. (0.015 / 0.018)

2 1/4 to 3 inch below the spine. (0.020)

3 1/4 to 4 inch below the spine. (0.025)

4 1/4 to 5 inch below the spine. (0.032)


Stewie;

[Heavansabove]

Ian, naturally, has covered the points well. For a full Batterie de le Sciage the following is probably sufficient for back saws - This is the standard Disston range [except where mentioned] and as they came to me, the ppi may not be factory on the following saws (and you could specify what you wanted anyway). A general guide:

Disston No 4 and No 5
Large Tenons - 18" x 4" under back 0.030" thick 11 ppi. This size is handy for large work like benches (the only time I used it, and very handy it was too)

Largish Tenons 16" x 4" under back 0.030" thick, 12 ppi

Tenons 14" x 3.5" under back 0.030" thick, 12 ppi (Spear & Jackson)

Small Tenons 12" x 3" under back 0.026" thick 13-14 ppi. A post-WW2 version is 3.5" under back and 0.030" thick

Very small tenons (and dovetails) 10" x 2.5" under back 0.026" thick 15ppi. Modern 9-10" saws are made mostly from 0.020" thick plate

Dovetails 8" x 2" under back 0.018" thick 15 ppi

Not often found, but these are interesting...
Disston No. 70
Dovetail 6" - 8" - 10" - 12", 1.5" under back, 0.018" thick, 17 ppi

Another view...
Atkins (from Catalog)

All back saws have 3 screws (Disston have 3 screws 12" and above)
8" -12" are "0.032" thick, 14" - 26" 0.035", 28" and bigger 0.042"
16" and bigger 12 ppi, below 16" 14 ppi
Dovetail saws are the same spec as Disston

Modern saws
Wenzloff offer 9" and 11" saws as well as the standard sizes. You can track down the many makers today - LN Lee Valley, PAX, Adria, Gramercy, Bad Axe, Blackburn, Bontz etc for their take on specs.

Screws
A number of makers in USA, but unless you are particular, taking screws from flea market basket cases works well, especially when you are learning. There are threads on this topic. Now that I have almost fully retired , I might try and pull the threads together.

Rip and(?) Crosscut
For backsaws there is a good argument for only filing back saws rip, especially over 12 ppi (mitre box saws are always CC, and usually 11 ppi). So 2 or 3 sizes of rip back saws are a good start.

Cheers
Peter

[IanW]

All saw makers may very slightly in thought but as a general guide to matching depth of saw plate to gauge used: IMO

1 1/2 to 2 inch below the spine. (0.015 / 0.018)

2 1/4 to 3 inch below the spine. (0.020)

3 1/4 to 4 inch below the spine. (0.025)

4 1/4 to 5 inch below the spine. (0.032)

Yep, you've tabulated it nicely, I think, Stewie. That's pretty much along the lines of what I was thinking......

The main thing is to keep the width within the range where the spine will give it some support (as it's meant to do). This varies with the gauge of plate, of course, but also depends a bit on the sawyer. Well-practised folks will force the saw less, and could get away with a saw that was less stiff than a newbie might manage comfortably.

For a small saw, it matters little whether you opt for 20 or 25 thou plate. Despite what you may read, a few thou difference in gauge will not have much effect on speed of cut, for the same tooth size, provided the saw is appropriately set & sharpened. If you check a bunch of old saws, you'll find a fair bit of variation within the same saw sizes. The main thing to be aware of, imo, is that small teeth won't work well on thicker gauge plate. Again, it's not a hard rule, but these would be my recommendations (others' mileage may vary):

15 thou plate, up to 30 tpi (if you can still see them!)
20 thou plate, up to 20 tpi
25 thou, up to 12-14tpi
30 thou, up to 10-11 tpi

There is also a maximum size too, of course, great big teeth would not be a clever idea on 15 thou plate, but I don't think anyone is likely to go too far at that end...

Cheers,

[Christos]

I really appreciate the information that is being supplied as well as the links. I do have a bit of a clearer picture on what I am after. The nuts are a bit of concern at the moment but might have to scout around for some.

[chambezio]

CHRISTOS
I agree with your thinking "What better time to take advantage of this opportunity". I was taught at Tech, an age ago, how to sharpen saws. We had an exercise where we were given a small piece of Mild Steel Sheet that we had to file "teeth into". It was an exercise to practice handling a file. It wasn't easy, and we were cutting 10 teeth to the Inch. With these saw plates being ordered, they can come with the teeth already punched! This is well and truly a "leg up" into the final sharpening of the saw. You still have to handle the file correctly to sharpen it, but you don't have to file the tooth from scratch.
I am ordering 2 dovetails and one Tenon Saw. Even though I have "store bought" saws I want to be able to say ....."Yep I made that"

The whole saw Making exercise will give you a greater appreciation of how to sharpen a saw, any saw, and maintain it while you use it. There is plenty of bods on the Forum to give you guidance should you need it.
Hats off to Pacman for sourcing and propelling this venture

[planemaker]

I really appreciate the information that is being supplied as well as the links. I do have a bit of a clearer picture on what I am after. The nuts are a bit of concern at the moment but might have to scout around for some.

Hi Christos. If your after a quality fit with your saw bolts you should consider getting the right gear to install them. IMO

Stewie;

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/Frankenhandle/DSC_0201_zpse2bc4613.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/Frankenhandle/DSC_0201_zpse2bc4613.jpg.html)

[Pac man]

Stewie and others have discussed their ideas on dimensioning saw plate in this thread http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=183821

Without my exposure to the saw making workshop and the efforts of Dale, IanW and RayG I would still be reading and dreaming about making saws.

hiroller that reminds me I have some handle blanks to get on with.

[hiroller]

You and me both!

[Sawdust Maker]

watching and learning

[planemaker]

Stewie and others have discussed their ideas on dimensioning saw plate in this thread http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=183821

Without my exposure to the saw making workshop and the efforts of Dale, IanW and RayG I would still be reading and dreaming about making saws.

hiroller that reminds me I have some handle blanks to get on with.

Hi Paul. Tried to send you a pm re saw bolt installation. Your message box is full. Near to clear to make some room ..


Stewie;

[Pac man]

Hi Paul. Tried to send you a pm re saw bolt installation. Your message box is full. Near to clear to make some room ..


Stewie;

Ok should be right now.

[Bushmiller]

Excellent thread. Thanks Christos for starting it.

Regards
Paul

[Pac man]

People who participated in an opportunity to buy saw making materials mentioned at the beginning of this thread are likely to receive a package very soon.
Looking to see some more threads on saw making whether questions or wip

[planemaker]

People who participated in an opportunity to buy saw making materials mentioned at the beginning of this thread are likely to receive a package very soon.
Looking to see some more threads on saw making whether questions or wip

I can see a big demand for taper files coming up. :oo:

Stewie;

[Christos]

I can see a big demand for taper files coming up. :oo:

Stewie;

In my case. It was the file before the saw.

[planemaker]

In my case. It was the file before the saw.

Just had a quick look on ebay. Old stock Nicholson files in new condition are selling for a small fortune. This is in the USA. Crazy. Supply must be really drying up real quick.

Good move when I purchased the stock I have a few years ago.

Stewie;

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/old%20stock%20saw%20taper%20files/DSC_0017_zps4b03c297.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/old%20stock%20saw%20taper%20files/DSC_0017_zps4b03c297.jpg.html)