newbie question re AL-960 vs AL-960B lathes and documents

[befuddled]

Hello there from a returning casual lathe user.

I have just purchased an AL-960 HAFCO lathe. (Its manufacture stamp is 1986.) Note it is NOT the AL-960B.

I’m not sure what the difference is between AL-960 and AL-960B but I can only imagine AL-960 was the original (imperial?) version as AL-960B seems to always be referred to in metric speak. :?

Question 1, could anyone assist with a user manual or parts list for the AL-960 (not B) could you please contact me or point me to a site as Hare and Forbes could not help?

Question 2, I see an endless amount of comments regarding pick up points and bed misalignment however I don’t see any mention of how Befuddled could establish what the misalignment might be or how to set something up to check/measure the inaccuracy of this old girl. Replies such as 'use an RDO' could be deemed unhelpful.:?
So, any helpers there to either sites or documentation describing ‘how to’?

Cheers, Peter:)

[Stustoys]

Hi Peter,

Welcome
We have a rule... pictures or it didnt happen. :D Otherwise were left guessing what you have.
The AL-960B has both met and imp graduations but an imp leadscrew. No idea what yours will have but the leadscrew is the only thing that really matters. You should be able to tell which you have by looking at the threading chart..or you can always measure it.

I think must would agree Grizzly has the best manuals, though someone here will likely be able to get you a copy of the Hare and Forbes manual(for what its worth)

I think this is pretty much the same lathe.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/Gunsmith-s-Bench-Top-Lathe-with-Stand/G4003G

Do you have a machine level?

Stuart

p.s. First person to mention RDM gets their fingers jammed in a door :wink:

[befuddled]

Thanks Stuart,
pics attached of same model AL-960 lathe sold recently at Emu Planes/Cranebrook,NSW.

Mine is from Wollongong, NSW. The one in the pics is slightly less used than mine.
Not sure what a machine level is so figure I dont have one.
I do have a number of spirit levels of varying lengths and styles. (magnetic and non magnetic)

Cheers, Peter

310384310385

[Garry 3]

The original al960 had a no 2 morse taper tailstock. Sometime in the 90's they made it no3, that is the difference if I remember correctly the explanation from a H+F dude I was talking to years ago.

Garry

[Stustoys]

I do have a number of spirit levels of varying lengths and styles. (magnetic and non magnetic)
Do any of the levels have a spec on them? something 0.1mm/m or better would be good.

Buying machines is a great way to spend more money ;)

Stuart

[befuddled]

Na, these are just crappy bubble levels with no accuracy readings.

I have looked at the Grizzly style devices and will probably go that way but I suspect that will give me 'bed parallel with ground' or something rather than how I check for misalignment along the bed. (and rectify it if it has a banana in it)

Cheers, Peter

[Stustoys]

but I suspect that will give me 'bed parallel with ground'
Nothing wrong with starting with "Bed parallel to the ground", then you can move on from there.

OR

You could assume all pretty close and your turning skills are pretty good. Bolt it down and use the two collar method(pretty much RDM) to tweak it. This will make it cut parallel.... but if all isnt pretty close or your turning skills arent so hot. you'll be twisting the bed to do it.

Stuart

off to jam my fingers in a door :o

[Ueee]

Rdm? Rdm? Arrrrrgh! Stu I hope you jamb those fingers real hard:q

Peter, rdm is roleys dads method. Do some searching and you should find some rather colorful discussions.

Ew

[Stustoys]

Rdm? Rdm? Arrrrrgh! Stu I hope you jamb those fingers real hard:q

Yes I cant believe I was the one that brought it up :~
I do hate it as first port of call.
But not all of us want to spend $150 on a level.........

Stuart

[Bryan]

Welcome Befuddled. That looks like a nice lathe. I would not get too uptight about precise setup just yet, unless you are having problems. I would just use wedges or shims underneath to make it stable and start turning. If you find that it's turning tapered instead of straight, then it's time to do some reading.

In brief, you want to make sure the bed is not twisted. The correct tool for this is a precision level. It will allow you to compare the 'attitude' of the unworn sections at each end of the bed. True level doesn't matter. If you still have taper after twist is eliminated you need to look at other possibilities, like bed wear or headstock misalignment.

To learn more, click on the search button near the top of the main page on this forum and type in 'lathe leveling'. You could also try similar search terms on other forums or on google.

[befuddled]

looks like I best research 'lathe leveling' and Roleys Dads Method

:U
Cheers, Peter

[Gavin Newman]

looks like I best research 'lathe leveling' and Roleys Dads Method

:U
Cheers, Peter

If you narrow down your "sunny australia" location to something more specific you may find someone nearby who can help with a level.

[befuddled]

ah sunny Australia is 'cause I read the http not the web page and naively thought with such high membership the group would (wood) be US not Oz. Oh well, stupid is as stupid does. :B

I actually reside in the pristine Upper West Side of Horsley NSW 2530 if anyone from the 'Gong reads this and has a suitable level.

Option 2 is I'm off to LA tomorrow and could probably pick up something while over there. (apart from my 150lb of motorcycle junk)

Cheers, Peter

[Stustoys]

RDM Isn't going to answer Question 2.

As you say, surely there will be some where in LA to pick up a level... or ebay even.

[Bryan]

RDM Isn't going to answer Question 2.

Do you mean this one?



Question 2, I see an endless amount of comments regarding pick up points and bed misalignment however I don’t see any mention of how Befuddled could establish what the misalignment might be or how to set something up to check/measure the inaccuracy of this old girl. Replies such as 'use an RDO' could be deemed unhelpful.:?


If so a simple test cut should suffice? Chuck a piece of bar, large enough to be self-supporting for, well the longer the better, but say 8 or 10 inches. Take a light cut along its length using a sharp tool and a fine feed. Measure the diameter with a micrometer at various points, eg every 25mm. Write down the results. Better yet, graph them. This can be the baseline for future reference. See also 'two collar method' (search term).

PS: Of course, this won't identify the source of any error, but it will tell you what the lathe is actually doing, which is worth knowing. It might be cutting perfectly straight, in which case you can leave it alone.

[rusty steel]

Hello Peter Befuddled,
If your lathe is the same as the one in the photo there does not appear to be very much clearance between the forward/reverse shaft and the swarf tray. My lathe had the same problem which made it difficult to remove the swarf.
After putting up with the problem for years I mounted the lathe headstock on a block of 50mm thick high density polyetheylene (I think that's what it is called). The tailstock end is supported on two pieces of 1/2" UNF threaded rod. This setup made it simple to align the bed. After it was set up I made a tapered wedge block from two pieces of Tallow wood which fits under the tailstock end in the space between the two alignment rods. The two tapered pieces of wood are drawn together by two rods so that the block fits firmly to prevent any vibration. The system seems to work well.
Good luck with your setting up
Russell

[Stustoys]

Do you mean this one?
Yes



If so a simple test cut should suffice? Chuck a piece of bar, large enough to be self-supporting for, well the longer the better, but say 8 or 10 inches. Take a light cut along its length using a sharp tool and a fine feed. Measure the diameter with a micrometer at various points, eg every 25mm. Write down the results. Better yet, graph them. This can be the baseline for future reference. See also 'two collar method' (search term).

And when its not parallel....(which it almost certainly wont be*)......... whats the problem?

Stuart

*I guess you could get lucky have have it cut parallel.. but that doesn't mean all is good

[Bryan]

Stu, I added a PS to say the same thing, but I think it's still worth knowing what it's doing.
After all the question was essentially, 'how inaccurate is my lathe?'

[befuddled]

Just going through options today, anyone able to comment on this little jigger I came across on the Grizzly site?

T24791 iGaging Digital Laser Level, 0.05 Deg. Resolution. 0-48" Range

just thinking it might be easier to read.

cheers, Peter

[befuddled]

Hello Peter Befuddled,
If your lathe is the same as the one in the photo there does not appear to be very much clearance between the forward/reverse shaft and the swarf tray. My lathe had the same problem which made it difficult to remove the swarf.
After putting up with the problem for years I mounted the lathe headstock on a block of 50mm thick high density polyetheylene (I think that's what it is called). The tailstock end is supported on two pieces of 1/2" UNF threaded rod. This setup made it simple to align the bed. After it was set up I made a tapered wedge block from two pieces of Tallow wood which fits under the tailstock end in the space between the two alignment rods. The two tapered pieces of wood are drawn together by two rods so that the block fits firmly to prevent any vibration. The system seems to work well.
Good luck with your setting up
Russell


Thanks Russell, that suggestion would also allow me to repair a bend in the tray where the DPO swapped out the 240v motor and did a bodge workaround where the terminal box of the new motor fouled the catch tray.
I had thought of adding a sump there but your suggestion of packing up would solve that clearance problem as well.

Cheeers, Peter

[Stustoys]

anyone able to comment on this little jigger I came across on the Grizzly site?

T24791 iGaging Digital Laser Level, 0.05 Deg. Resolution. 0-48" Range

just thinking it might be easier to read.

My math says 0.05degree is around 0.01" per 10"... but I wouldn't trust it.. anyone want to check it?

If I'm right the level below would be off scale before the level above has moved 0.05deg.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/Master-Machinist-s-Level-8-x-0005-Per-10-/H2682

I know which one I'd use.

But it does depend exactly what you are trying to achieve. As I think Bryan and I are coming at it from different directions :)

Stuart

[Oldneweng]

My math says 0.05degree is around 0.01" per 10"... but I wouldn't trust it.. anyone want to check it?

If I'm right the level below would be off scale before the level above has moved 0.05deg.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/Master-Machinist-s-Level-8-x-0005-Per-10-/H2682

I know which one I'd use.

But it does depend exactly what you are trying to achieve. As I think Bryan and I are coming at it from different directions :)

Stuart

I have an iGaging digital laser level. It is 8inches long. I am not sure of the resolution, but I found it to be accurate to about 4 or 5 inches over 20 ft. I was not overly impressed. One day I am going to check it to see if it matches the specs. I was using it to lay horizontal stormwater pipe.

Dean

[Bryan]

T24791 iGaging Digital Laser Level, 0.05 Deg. Resolution. 0-48" Range

just thinking it might be easier to read.

cheers, Peter


My math says 0.05degree is around 0.01" per 10"... but I wouldn't trust it.. anyone want to check it?

.05 deg would be 3 minutes which is 180 seconds.
The coarsest 'machinist's level' is 85 arc seconds per division.
The one in Stu's link is 10 seconds.
The finest one I've seen is 4 seconds.

I think you need a coarse one to get you in the ballpark and a fine one to finish. How coarse and fine is up to you. I have an 85 and a 4, but a 10 would be fine enough I think.



But it does depend exactly what you are trying to achieve. As I think Bryan and I are coming at it from different directions :)


That's why these leveling/alignment threads are always so much fun.
Anyone want to take bets on how many posts till someone raises the curvature of the earth? :)

[Ueee]

Hi Peter,
A level like this is more than enough for what you want to do http://www.ctctools.biz/servlet/the-403/PRECISION-LEVELLING-OF-MACHINE/Detail . Use a carpenters level first to get you in the ballpark or you will be chasing your tail for ages.

You also have to consider the curvature of the earth as it will effect your results over the length of your lathe, and then of course there is the problems with gravity effecting your level if you have any objects of large mass in the room.......:q

Ew

[Oldneweng]

Whether or not to consider the curvature of the earth is dependant on the methods used. A surveyor will take it into consideration, whereas an engineer won't. An engineer would have already taken measures to counteract it when he laid the floor, based on the figures supplied by the surveyor.:rolleyes:

Dean

[Bryan]

Are we helping yet? :D

[befuddled]

Yep, I just need to get clear of Vegas so I can arrange my lathe and mill DRO from amazon via anytime tools, and the level and magnetic dial gauge from Grizzly. Goin gun shooting tomorrow so the gunsmith lathe manual could be handy.:D

Cheers, Peter

[eskimo]

Are we helping yet? :D

geez...glad I got mine done while you lot were not so worried about curvature of the earth, whether one has to be an engineer or surveyor and then that crap about degrees minutes seconds and arc's
ruddy hell guys.....lol