Panel raising query

[section1]

I have followed Derek Cohens instruction as per his website and I just cannot get the corners to meet. I first start raising the panel on the end grain side & then the opposite then I finish off the edges and it's when I do the edges the corners do no meet. I have also tried planing a rabbet on the underside and then the top raise the panel and still the mitre's don't meet.

I'm all out of ideas.:?

[fineboxes]

Its a balancing act, creep up on it slowly.
Easy if you are using a finely tuned hand plane.
Or you can cheat anf use a form sanding block with 100 grit.
Then go thought the grades to eliminate the sanding scores.


Cheers

Steve

[section1]

I'm using a veritas skewed rabbet plane I made a fence for it can't remember what angle I said it to Derek writes it doesn't matter what angle it's set to. As creeping up on it the fence is set it's just a matter of planing in a straight and even line but that's the thing even though I get to my depth it's friggin too deep not matching the ends, but if I do meet the end the rebate in the wall isn't deep enough and neither have I met my depth mark as well to fit into the groove. If I wasn't trying to create that rebate on top I could simply do it with a no.4 like Paul sellers. But I am trying to get nice crisp lines and for everything else to match up.

[Zsteve]

It is a balancing act. Unfortunately you can't just rely on buying a plane and setting a depth stop and letting rip - unless you have lots of practice and have develloped the skill.

Sounds like you are inadvertantly canting the plane over - Do you hold the the front mushroom handle? To get better control of angle you need to have the front hand straddling the front rod/fence (sort of like holding the side front edge of a plane when edge jointing) and hold the fence 'flat'on the edge. If the plane was mine I'd take that knob off and get it out of the way.

Generally you need to watch the planned surface and adjust what you are doing to get the result you want. Start at the end furthest away and work back til you have a ful pass down the ege - but you must watch and stop before you got too far. Then if you have to, get you shoulder plane and take fine shavings to match it up where it needs it.

[section1]

Yes I have done all that it's not my first rodeo but panel raising is, I have tried with the shoulder plane but unfortunately across the grain it tears as expected it would be the same result if I use a moulding plane across the grain. As for the handle I would never normally use it but in this instance I've discovered I have more control over the plane even though I am not getting the results I'm after I'm starting to wonder if along the edge I should bring the fence slightly in.

Has anybody made a panel raising effect with this plane and if so were you successful. To give you a better idea of the results I'm getting, across the grain it's as if the angle is lowest to the edges. That is why when I continue to plane the edges I end up going too far and making it too thin, but nearest to the top the angle is steeper. This is what's puzzling to me it's the same fence, same angle yet different results.

[ian]

I'm using a veritas skewed rabbet plane I made a fence for it can't remember what angle I said it to Derek writes it doesn't matter what angle it's set to. As creeping up on it the fence is set it's just a matter of planing in a straight and even line but that's the thing even though I get to my depth it's friggin too deep not matching the ends, but if I do meet the end the rebate in the wall isn't deep enough and neither have I met my depth mark as well to fit into the groove. If I wasn't trying to create that rebate on top I could simply do it with a no.4 like Paul sellers. But I am trying to get nice crisp lines and for everything else to match up.OK

my suggestion is that after planing both ends across the end grain you remove the depth stop from the plane.
having set the depth of the rebate field on the end grain, the long grain rebates fields only need to match the end grain rebate fields at the corners.
Plane the long grain sides, when the mitre runs from corner to corner, you are done.

also, try establishing the rebate field on all 4 sides, BEFORE attaching the angled fence


in response to your last post -- I've used the skewed Veritas and the straight Stanley #78 (I think that's the right number for Stanley's fillister plane)
The Veritas is neater across the grain, but the Stanley does an OK job -- and planing the field is not much different whichever plane (of the 2) you use

[section1]

But I'm not using a depth stop at all and nor am I setting a rebate on the panel I'm trying to raise. Only on the underside have I set a rebate in order not to take too much material off the panel raising side but that didn't work either. Besides the depth stop setup with the angled fence cannot reach the bottom that is why I've moved it out of the way.

[ian]

can I reply in more detail tomorrow evening?

[section1]

Ian I always value your input and yes I'm off to bed as well

[IanW]

I'll leave it to the other Ian to help sort this out, but I'm struggling a bit to figure out exactly what the problem is. Apart from using the fence to keep the edges of the field straight, this is essentially an eyeball job. In working to keep the corners clean, I always end up with one that is a teeny bit thinner, but once installed in the frame, no-one is ever going to know, as long as the corners are straight & within a degree or two of 45.

However, I must confess that I usually do the grunt work of panel-raising (for straight-sided panels) on the table saw. I establish the field first, then take off the angled cuts, & clean up with my old 78, and maybe a lick or two with the shoulder-plane if the edges of the field need attention. The clean-up is all done by eye, with no stops or fences required. The problem with doing the whole job using a rebate plane, or any other square-sided plane, is that the edges of the field end up undercut or overcut, and not cleanly vertical. This problem is addressed with dedicated panel-raising planes, which have the blades shaped to match the angle of the panel edge, & some day, I intend to make a pair (you need a matched pair so you can work contrary grain in the right direction), but it's pretty low on the priority list, as I don't raise fielded panels every day of the week! :;

Cheers,

[section1]

It would be nice to have dedicated planes for this type of work but even though I do have a table saw I must admit I refuse to use it for anything in fact it will go up for sale as I feel the use of such machinery impacts on the development of true hand skill. My goal is to be completely powerless in my workshop with the exception of a lathe as this is true hand work the fact that it's not foot powered does not diminish hand skill in anyway. Truly common sense has to prevail something many unplugged workshop don't seem to understand.

But not having the privledge of owning panel raising planes I must understand to complete this operation with the tools on hand and that being my veritas skewed rabbet plane. You hit the nail right on the head when you mentioned "The problem with doing the whole job using a rebate plane, or any other square-sided plane, is that the edges of the field end up undercut or overcut, and not cleanly vertical." that is the problem I'm facing so what is the solution to it besides owning a dedicated plane for the job.

[section1]

Let me shed some possible light here I just may have found the solution, it is in my belief but it's just a theory here looking at the angle it seems that it's a bit too steep and that's why I end up undercutting giving me a sloppy fit and the mitres won't meet up. So I will make a new fence with a low angle not sure what degree yet but I think this just may fix the problem. Fingers crossed I will keep you guys updated on my find.

[section1]

5.4° angle was the chosen I found to be most appealing and the results were it worked:U Having said that because of the low angle to reach the desired depth the lip (lack of a better word) it would create in the centre of the panel would be far too large. So to avoid that I had to rebate the top and bottom of the panel to fit snuggly into the groove and thanks to that it would seat 90° to the rail and stile, another words avoiding any slight twist the angle would otherwise create.

My next mission is to create another raised panel using the old angle without creating a lip on top as this new angle isn't steep enough I believe the only way to tackle this is as soon as a lip is being created to stop planing and move on to the other sides then finish off the top by planing it down.

I completely agree with you IanW a dedicated panel raising plane is a better option.

[section1]

This is my final note on the subject as I feel it has lost some interest, maybe I have offended someone and I do apologise if that is the case it was never my intention. Ignore my previous post it seems that Derek was right after all the angle doesn't matter as I have returned to my original angle and have successfully raised the panel with the mitres meeting nicely at 45° from corner to corner.

I have switched from 3/4" radiata to 1" Hoop and stopped only a half a mil (32nd) to create that lip again not sure what you would call it. I have noticed if I went any deeper the plane would start to skip I believe this is due to undulating grain. I have also noticed whilst edge planing I am taking uneven passes, two contributing factors coud be at play here: I'm not pressing hard enough on the toe at the beginning of the cut or the blade isn't truly parallel to the sole but I'm more inclined to think the first.

Visually with that half a mm lip it's more appealing to me anyway. With a little more practice I can apply this panel effect to my on going project. I sincerely hope however frustrating and mundane this post may be that it will be of benefit to someone trying to raise a panel. Woodworking is a learning curve with plenty of practice and no matter how long you have been doing it there is always something new to learn and improve on.

[ian]

This is my final note on the subject as I feel it has lost some interest, maybe I have offended someone and I do apologise if that is the case it was never my intention. in no way have you offended me -- but generally 9 to 7 is when I'm at work...

attached is a sketch of how I suggest you approach the panel raising task.
The suggested technique is adapted from that suggested by Mat Bickford in his excellent book on using Hollows and Rounds.

Personally I think a field makes a raised panel.

I'm suggesting that the task be approached using a series of rebates which both guide the panes used for the raising but also establish depth stops.
If the rebates are cut on all 4 sides of a board, they can be stopped when the side depths match the depths already established across both ends.
As you plane down the "lands" it should be easy to tell by eye where more material needs to be removed to reach the final profile. Just remember that the only full length shaving you take might be the last one

Let us know how you get on.

313333

[section1]

aha very good now I understand what you were getting at I will definitely try that tomorrow. I also just learned a new word "field" I was calling it a lip. I think that will work out perfectly I can't wait to give it a go.:U

A thought just came to mind I won't be able to use the skewed rabbet plane because the angled fence most prbably won't match the angle created and the low angle block plane will not plane right up to the edge of the field.

[IanW]

No offence taken here, either!

Yep, there are probably several ways to do this, but what Ian suggests is how I'd go about it if doing it all by hand. Establish the field by planing a straight rebate, then plane the bevel. I would use a bench plane for defining the bevel, because there is no danger of the blade catching on the edge of the field. That leaves a little bit of unwanted wood which I clean up (carefully!) with a shoulder plane, but sandpaper wrapped very tightly around a square block would do almost as well.

Skipping may be due to excessive set. A heavy set when roughing down gets the waste out of the way, then back off & take lighter shavings as you refine the finished product.

Sounds like your learning curve is levelling out.... :U

Cheers,

Edit - woops, didn't see your last post. Try the block plane - it will leave a small bit of wood beside the field, but it is not much, and you can deal with it after the bevel is defined as outlined above, either by careful freehand use of the rebate, or with the sandpaper & block method.

[section1]

I've tried this method shown of creating rabbets and then planing them angled but it seems far too much work than the original way I did it, also due to carelessnes I knicked the field.

When I was planing the rabbets across the grain the bottom and side walls were 90° to each other but along the edge they weren't. I took out the blade and reset it and faced the same problem again, I checked the fence and that's square so now I'm stumped with a new problem. The bottom of the rabbet angles down and the wall angles away from me.

[section1]

Well another crisis dilemna solved it is evidently clear my self setting jig does not work and to be honest I'm not sure just how well those set screws will work either. I don't use this plane often and I've sharpened it once set it used it on a project and haven't picked it up since. I'm wondering what could of been the contributing factors to set it out of alignment. Could it be when I was adjusting the depth of cut and inadvertantly moved it sideways. who knows but according to the manual once the set screws are set the blade will always return to the same position.

[IanW]

.... who knows but according to the manual once the set screws are set the blade will always return to the same position..

Hmm, I don't think you can rely on those side screws to give you a perfect setting after taking the blade out. They help, for sure, but they cannot prevent the blade from slewing (if they did, the lateral adjuster would be rendered useless!). When you re-insert the blade after sharpening, there is enough slop & backlash in the best of setups to allow a small deviation. You would be exceedingly lucky to return the blade to a perfect alignment. So moral is, always check your blade alignment after you've replaced it!

Cheers,

[section1]

As I suspected do you know how difficult it is to align the blade parallel to the sole actually that part is easy but to make it protrude to the side 1000th of an inch or less whilst trying to keep it parallel to the sole. Believe me when I tell you this was not an easy task, makes me want to go out an buy the jack rabbet plane but who can afford that at almost $400 since Carba Tec's price rise. Maybe Tony abbott followed Carba tec's example.

Anyway there has been many posts written about the skewed rabbet plane not making perfect 90° rabbets me including and the remedy was fix it with the shoulder plane, well let me tell you after setting this plane correctly for the first time I had rabbets that were perfect in every sense of the word. Still too much fart arsing around with this plane.

[ian]

Hi Section

looks like you have the process finally figured out.
Despite what the advertising says, I've found that "specialist" planes like the skew rabbet, shoulder planes, rabbet planes, hollows and rounds need a certain amount of "driving" to get them to produce the result you want.

what I suggested above, will work but as you discovered is a bit of work.
if you work mostly by eye, after marking the depth of the raise and planing the rebate for the field, you can create most of the raise using a bench plane, switching to the specialist plane for the last bit.
referring to what I've read, keeping the blade of a specialist plane sharp and the right shape was always a lot of work, especially so in the era before "smart" honing guides like the Veritas Mk2, so historically their use was limited to final shaping.

I set the side projection of a skew rabbet (or shoulder) plane blade by feel.

Derek's method of using a sloping fence will work, however, my personal preference would be to cut the rebate for the field and then complete the raise by eye judging how I need to tip the plane I'm using to get the angle I want. Last raise I did was on the underside of a circular table top -- working to pencil lines. It's not as precise as a raise cut wholely by machine, but fingers can't detect the inevitable slight differences as you move around the top.

[section1]

Yes your method does work but it is a lengthy process and mistakes can easily occur like when I knicked the field. Also trying to maintain the same angle all around using your method is a challenge.

[IanW]

Yes your method does work but it is a lengthy process and mistakes can easily occur like when I knicked the field. Also trying to maintain the same angle all around using your method is a challenge.

Section, all hand work is 'workmanship of risk', and it took me quite a while to learn to work quickly & confidently without too many disasters. But after a while, you find your own ways of minimising the risk and achieving the desired level of quality in a reasonable time frame. You may be striving for a level of perfection that isn't within the capabilities of the tools & methods you are using? To my mind, you should be able to safely raise a pretty decent panel after a bit of practice, using a combination of rebate & bench planes. The time it takes should diminish quite a bit as you become familiar with the steps & tools, but in my experience, it takes a while to become really slick at what may seem pretty simple tasks. Remember that blokes like Derek have been mucking about with hand tools for many years, and what he finds relatively simple and intuitive may not be so for someone with less hand-tool experience.....

Cheers,

[section1]

Yes IanW I completely agree with you so far I have finally achieved the results I was looking for but what you said I couldn't agree with you more.

[section1]

What A DH I am after 3 days fart arsing around trying different methods I ended up resorting to a no.4 and did it that way.:?

[ian]

What A DH I am after 3 days fart arsing around trying different methods I ended up resorting to a no.4 and did it that way.:?
... you can create most of the raise using a bench plane, switching to the specialist plane for the last bit. :whs: :D

[section1]

I'm not sure how I can use the specialty after doing it by eye reason being I already created an angle and the fence I originally made is a different angle so it would look kind of off. Besides I'm quite content for the moment the way it's turned out, I created on both sides raised panels so I can fit it into the grooves, I did try before making rabbets on the underside but it's trying to get it to fit snuggley without gaps was the most difficult part atleat this way I didn't have to worry about any gaps showing and it was much faster, apparently that's how they used to do it way back then.