VFD Circuit Diagram Question [Archive]

Oldneweng

16th May 2014, 09:31 AM

This is Joe's VFD Circuit Diagram. (I think) I have deleted the jog sections as I do not need them for the lathe.

313790

It appears to me that the EStop and the Stop do exactly the same thing. I was under the impression that they could handle different functions.

I wonder if the Stop switch should be moved to the D3 line. Any comments?

One comment I want to make is that D3 is actually the reset (RST) terminal in my case. This confused me as all other terminals are listed as they exist on the VFD. Maybe my VFD is different to others. I was going to ask about this, but reading the manual regarding the PD046 command cleared it up. It did take some time to get there tho.

Dean

Ueee

16th May 2014, 10:19 AM

Hi Dean,
If you use a latching e-stop it stops the VFD from being able to start at all. If you keep reading Joe's thread i describe how i set up my VFD, which is different again.

Ew

Stustoys

16th May 2014, 10:30 AM

Hi Dean

The function of terminals D1-D6 are set by parameters PD044-PD049.
If PD046=04 then its stop.
If PD046=13 then its reset.
So basically forget the letter codes*, any terminal can be set to control any function.

The parameter PD0XX=13(e/stop) isnt used because its a NO circuit.. which doesnt make a lot of sense to me.

Stuart

*Well ok you have to use the letter code it work out which terminal is which..... but in my manual the last two are in the wrong order anyway.

Oldneweng

16th May 2014, 11:31 AM

I worked out that as momentary switches are used, my suggestion with the stop switch is no good.

Hi Dean,
If you use a latching e-stop it stops the VFD from being able to start at all. If you keep reading Joe's thread i describe how i set up my VFD, which is different again.

Ew

I know about the latching EStop, which is what I have. I could not find Joe's thread this morning, as I could not get to my normal computer due to SWMBO being still asleep. I was using my PC in the study which I am getting updated to work again after not being used for nearly a year. For some reason when I did a search for the thread I kept getting zero results. I cannot believe that for "vfd" or "vsd", so there is a problem somewhere.

I now have access to my other computer so I can look it up later. I had to scan a printed copy of the circuit diagram to post it.

Hi Dean

The function of terminals D1-D6 are set by parameters PD044-PD049.
If PD046=04 then its stop.
If PD046=13 then its reset.
So basically forget the letter codes*, any terminal can be set to control any function.

The parameter PD0XX=13(e/stop) isnt used because its a NO circuit.. which doesnt make a lot of sense to me.

Stuart

*Well ok you have to use the letter code it work out which terminal is which..... but in my manual the last two are in the wrong order anyway.

I know that too Ray. I was only concerned with which terminal on the VFD to connect the stop wire to. Doesn't really matter but I am trying to follow the KISS principal for now so I don't trip myself up and get into even more problems.

Re the EStop, I have a number of safety cutout switches on the lathe, some of which I will ignore and some I will use. The brake pedal is one example. These all need to be connected in series of course. I want to know where to connect them.

I recall a discussion where it was mentioned that the stop button worked via the VFD and the ramp down setting, but the EStop just shuts off the VFD which causes a slower speed reduction. ie No braking/ramp down.

I cannot disconnect the mains power via a control switch with my setup as I am using a 55A manual switch for power isolation.

The lathe is now wired up except for the EStop, the coolant pump which I don't have yet and the indicator lights which I also don't have yet. I will give it a run later today if all goes well. I have some other stuff to do first.

Dean

Ueee

16th May 2014, 11:41 AM

Re the EStop, I have a number of safety cutout switches on the lathe, some of which I will ignore and some I will use. The brake pedal is one example. These all need to be connected in series of course. I want to know where to connect them.

Same thread of Joe's Dean. On my phone so sorry i can't add a link. Best way to find it is to go to Joe's profile page and there is link on the left for "find latest started threads" or something.

Ew

Stustoys

16th May 2014, 12:31 PM

I must have needed coffee Dean

http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=183843

You're going to have your brake pedal operate a latching e/stop?

Stuart

Ueee

16th May 2014, 12:53 PM

You will need the foot brak to tell the vfd to do a coasting stop not ramp down. Otherwise the brake will be fighting the ramp down. Honestly I don't think you'll need the ramp down anyway. Once you get the taste for the foot brake it is all you will use.

Ew

cba_melbourne

16th May 2014, 12:53 PM

Dean,

you have to make a choice, how you want YOUR emergency stop to work. Every application is different.

I like to have my lathe e stop to halt the spindle "as fast as possible, NOW!". And that implies to use dynamic braking and keep the VFD powered up. But my two lathes are far smaller than yours, and do not have a brake pedal. My two lathes are fitted with mechanically settable stop switches that detect the apron approaching the headstock. In some cases I like to set these as emergency stops to avoid a collision for example when threading to a shoulder. It goes without question, that such apron stop has to work very fast to be any useful, it must use dynamic braking.

But there can be very good reasons, for an emergency stop to cut the power to the VFD. Every application is different. Maybe the following discussion gives you some food for thought:
http://www.plctalk.net/qanda/showthread.php?t=749
and
http://www.control.com/thread/998585364

Remember, every application is different. Do your own safety assessment, for your particular situation. Then choose how you want your estop to work. Your time spent thinking about it now, is well invested. The day you will have to press the estop, you will remember exactly what it does and in which sequence, you will remember what to expect and what not.

Oldneweng

16th May 2014, 01:41 PM

Thanks for the link Stuart. I am still on my PC because it is already up and I am just ducking in and out while I do other stuff.

The only latching stop is the one on the control panel as shown in my New Lathe thread. The others are as the lathe came, and only momentary switches. I still need to work out which to keep.

You will need the foot brak to tell the vfd to do a coasting stop not ramp down. Otherwise the brake will be fighting the ramp down. Honestly I don't think you'll need the ramp down anyway. Once you get the taste for the foot brake it is all you will use.

Ew

I am sure you are right about that, but what about the interlock switches? Coasting stop as well?

cba. Some good ideas. I will have a look at those links when I get time. Discussions like this help me to make decisions about what will suit me.:2tsup:

I will try connecting all required stop switches in one series circuit.

SWMBO got a tiger snake in the carport last night. She was warned, yet again by our golden border collie. Very unusual to have them out at this time of year around here. It was a warm day and we do have a lot of mice around.

Dean

cba_melbourne

16th May 2014, 02:18 PM

SWMBO got a tiger snake in the carport last night. She was warned, yet again by our golden border collie. Very unusual to have them out at this time of year around here. It was a warm day and we do have a lot of mice around.

Dean

The dog is good at warning. But we are more worried at saving the dog from getting bitten. The cats are much faster, they can play with the snake. Trouble is they then want to bring the snake inside to show how good they are.... We keep cats around the stables to control mice. Because the more mice you have, the more snakes will come to you, since snakes eat mice.

Oldneweng

16th May 2014, 06:52 PM

The dog is good at warning. But we are more worried at saving the dog from getting bitten. The cats are much faster, they can play with the snake. Trouble is they then want to bring the snake inside to show how good they are.... We keep cats around the stables to control mice. Because the more mice you have, the more snakes will come to you, since snakes eat mice.

This dog is good. This is why we are so happy with her behavior in this instance as she is a bit of a rag in most ways. She had a difficult upbringing and we are her third lot of owners. She wont be leaving here, even tho she only came here for 3 weeks break from her barking, for our son and daughter in law. She has learnt a lot.

When it comes to snakes she does not approach them, but stands back and watches while she gives her special "This is Serious" bark. We had a dog who hated snakes with a passion. We both saw her half in a huge Canna Lily plant jumping and shaking. She finally backed out with a large tiger snake held by its middle. We nearly fainted. We now try to discourage the dogs from going near them.

Back on topic.

Ueee wrote

Hi joe,
I'm just looking at it now. With my estop latched I get the panel flashing from A.ES to F00.00.
I can find my huanyang book again, but my estop is NO and when latched connects DCM to SPM. Not sure which pd's are set to what to make it work. Like I say I can't find my book, but if you want to know any particular ones just ask.

Ew

Joe replied

That would be PD048 set to 13..... interesting that it is a NO, since the 04 option is for a NC switch.... MMMMM
I really wonder if you can set different values for deceleration for an E-Stop? Can't find anything about it yet.
Anyone else?

On my VFD, SPM is set with Pd049. EStop is 13.

Ueee, I would appreciate a diagram of some sort so I am sure how it is done.

Thanks for the assistance Guys.

For the latest update on my lathe, refer to the New Lathe Thread.

Oldneweng

16th May 2014, 08:01 PM

cba. I have read the threads from your links. Certainly some helpful information there. One issue is that at this point in time, all stops, EStop or otherwise on my lathe are activated by an electronic circuit. There is no physical disconnect. This would require a contactor based mains power supply switch. I can do this but it would require a power source for the latching circuit. The contactors in the lathe require 110v. There is a transformer that has a 380v rated input and 110v output. If I used a 240v input this would equate to about 70v output. I would have to see if this would be sufficient to operate the contactor.

I am musing over having a system that applies automatic braking via the brake pedal mechanism. Hit the EStop, it releases and applies maximum effective braking. If I am wrapped up in the work, I don't want to have keep applying pressure to the brake pedal. This brake pedal is full length of the gap between headstock and tailstock base. The lathe was sold for little more than scrap value because the feed screw did not have a cover. I think the EStop issue is far more important, but I am not complaining.

There are interlock switches on the gear cover, the electrical box and the brake pedal. I cannot see any reason to change these.

I should point out that my experience with Safety lockouts, EStops etc is fairly comprehensive in relation to operation. At work every attempt is made to fully comply with regulations and any suggestions that indicate a further risk. We have stops everywhere. From everything I have read they seem to be fully compliant and then some. My mains power isolation switch for the lathe is lockable. For safety reasons, at times that might be desirable, but I doubt it at this stage.

Dean

Ueee

16th May 2014, 08:32 PM

Oldneweng

16th May 2014, 08:48 PM

Dean I found using a foot brake became second nature very quickly. Granted I do use the machine nearly every day, but I think you will find the same, the ability to stop the lathe without looking for the switch or moving either hand is great. So great I go looking for a foot brake on the mill......

I'll post some more details on the e stop when I am not on my phone.

Ew

Thanks Ueee. The Nuttall had a clutch lever and a big round stop button down near the floor level. Beacause the on/off switches were low down so I had to bend slightly to reach, I got used to flicking the stop switch with my left foot. I have no doubts I will get used to the brake. I do need to put it back together tho. I have not done so since I had the motor out. I need to adjust the motor position slightly to line it up. I will replace the brake bits after that.

Dean

cba_melbourne

16th May 2014, 09:01 PM

jhovel

16th May 2014, 10:00 PM

A couple of comments. Firstly, Dean, the circuit you ended up with in post #1 is exacltly what's in the Huanyang user manual on page 37. That's the startting point to understand what's going on. The stop button doen't issue a stop command, it 'resets' or cancels the Forward or Reverse commands (if I understand it correctly). Adding the jog buttons was my challenge. It seems too easy in retrospect but had me floundering for a while.
I still haven't found (if there is) a difference between 'Stop' and 'E-Stop'. ...
Secondly, I'm in the middle of (tonight in fact - the parts arrived in the mail today) adding the missing brake circuit components to one of my Hunyang 3kW VFDs. I really want to know what's possible with the right external braking resistor and settings. I'll report when I have something to report - success or failure.
However, I have run a 0.3kW motor on the bench with a 3.0kW VFD and set the decel time to 0.1 sec. It stopped DEAD from full flight! In fact it nearly threw itself of the bench so violently that I discovered that the colour of Adrenaline is actually brown.... :o

So at least it SHOULD be possible to have a functional electric e-stop rather than a mechanical brake. I really want that because my lathe has no brake and it would be difficult to fit. I also want to implement 'final' limit switches that actually stop the lathe if all goes to $h1t - not switch it off and let it coast to a stop....

We'll see.

cba_melbourne

17th May 2014, 12:06 AM

..................Secondly, I'm in the middle of (tonight in fact - the parts arrived in the mail today) adding the missing brake circuit components to one of my Hunyang 3kW VFDs. I really want to know what's possible with the right external braking resistor and settings. I'll report when I have something to report - success or failure..............

Smaller VFD use "dynamic braking". Dynamic braking uses a resistor to convert braking energy into heat. The motor acts as a generator when the frequency output from the VFD is lower than the corresponding motor rpm. The motor is braking whenever the frequency generated by the VFD reduces quicker than the motor (and its attached inertia like gears, spindle, chuck and workpiece in a lathe) can coast to a lower speed. Without a braking circuit, the VFD would have to "trip" (= switch itself off) to avoid the bus voltage rising too high.

Most VFD's come standard with an inbuilt "brake chopper" circuit and an inbuilt small brake resistor. The brake chopper transistor connects the brake resistor across the DC bus of the VFD. The chopper limits and modulates the braking current from the motor, and at the same time prevents current from the VFD input to reach the resistor. The maximum braking current is limited by the current rating of the brake chopper transistor and the brake resistor. The maximum braking energy is limited by the power rating of the braking resistor. Such VFD often have two terminals for an optional, much larger external brake resistor. The larger brake resistor does not allow for a larger braking current (or braking action) because it uses the same chopper transistor, but rather for a longer braking duration or and shorter intervals between brakings (as extreme example think of the huge inertia in a conveyor belt for a rock crusher). One needs to tell the VFD that an external braking resistor has been attached, so the brain can tell the chopper circuit that a longer braking time and/or shorter braking repetition interval is now possible.

Some other VFD do not come standard with any inbuilt brake chopper circuit and brake resistor. To provide any dynamic braking, they need first to be fitted with an optional external brake chopper/resistor unit. Unlike a simple braking resistors with two wires, such units must connect to the VFD with a special multicore cable. And unlike a simple braking resistor, that can be mixed to any brand/model VFD as long as resistance and power rating match, such external brake chopper is always proprietary to the VFD brand and model used and hence more expensive. On the up side, it may be possible to choose a larger size of the chopper circuit to increase braking capacity.

Finally there is DC injection braking. This is usually provided in addition to Dynamic or regenerative braking. It is only applied shortly before the motor comes to standstill. It essentially prevents the motor to rotate freely once stopped. It is not suitable to decellerate the motor, because the braking energy is dissipated within the motor, and the motor would quickly overheat.

Larger VFD sometime use "regenerative braking" instead of "dynamic braking", whereby the energy from the motor is returned to the AC mains line through a separate inverter, dedicated to only this task.

Oldneweng

17th May 2014, 12:14 AM

Dean, this is your personal lathe and workshop is it? You have no employees using it, no plans to put on employess in future? You have full access control to your workshop, no kids to play around it? Then I would think you can do as you like. As long as you keep the electricals safe from starting a house fire. You can choose for yourself what degree of safety interlocking you want to put up with.

In this situation, I personally would consider to remove interlock switches on gear covers and electrical box. And certainly that most annoying of all safety switches on the splash guard - there are lots of routine tasks that are not compatible with it.
I would feel perfectly safe regarding the brake pedal as my only emergency stop (with a safety switch on the pedal of course, to prevemt the motor fighting with the brake). For me, no need for additional e-stops. I am old enough to look after myself. What I would never do without, is a plug that I can pull out of the wall socket, to positively and unmistakeably visibly from far away cut all power to the machine. Before and whilst doing any work on the electricals, I want to see that plug on the floor.

This whole argument changes completely, as soon as you share your workshop with someone else.

If I ever made the decision to employ another person to operate my machinery I would have to make major changes first. It is a hobby lathe. I place a great importance on our privacy. I do not want people having access to my home and workshop for that reason. We live a long way from the nearest neighbors. We cherish that privacy. The splash guard came off very soon after I got the lathe. Maybe I will put it back on some day, but it won't have an interlock on it. Like you, I believe I am old enough to look after myself.

I do understand what you are saying. Even if a friend was to use my lathe I would not expect them to access anything without my knowledge. Your comments regarding the plug that can be removed from a wall socket is an interesting one. At the moment it is all connected temporarily via a standard GPO. When working on it, I made sure I removed the plug from the socket. The second time I said to myself that I have switched off the main switch on the lathe, but I still removed the socket from the GPO. That is a good point. I guess I should look for a 32A plug and socket.

Dean

jhovel

17th May 2014, 02:30 AM

Thanks CBA for the detailed explanation. It will help members understand what to ask for or look for.
It provided good background to explain what I'm doing.

So to follow on, the issue gets a little more clouded with our ubiquitous Huanyang VFDs.
The manuals describe in much detail how the dynamic braking is implemented and how it works and what size braking resistor is used for the different models and which terminal to connect them to.
Just as others have found out, I connected a suitable braking resistor to the terminals and nothing changed, nor did the braking resister get even warm.... So again like others before me, I opened my VFDs up to find that in one the braking resistor terminal wasn't connected to anything and in all three that the chopper IGBT nor its optocoupler nor the diode to send the braking power to the chopper was even installed. The circuit board however has all the connections and silk screens for the parts.
Since they are all cheap parts, I ordered them and they duly arrived. I've now installed them in one of the VFDs. I haven't reassembled it to test anything yet, but will over the weekend.
In the meantime, I've also contacted two of the Huanyang manufacturers in China (Hyuria and Fullwell) and had a Hong Kong distributor (I knew from the CNCzone forum) contact a third.
Hyuria got back to me and said that these components were only ever installed if the customer asked for them as the were 'optional' (be nice if the manual said so, right?). I then asked if the coding of the processor for dynamic braking was in all delivery options - and have predictably not heard back since. Fullwell didn't even acknowledge my message. The third manufacturer reported back to the Hong Kong guy that 'it was not possible for end users to fit the parts as it was a very complex operation and required complicated testing equipment and procedures and that I should order a new one with the optional braking circuit - I guess also predictable....

So we will see!
Fitting the parts is no more complicated than any soldering of components by the way. I can't think what testing might be involved since they don't seem to be testing anything - not even for QA - in any case :roll:

In the process, I also discovered that only one out of three of my Huanyang VFDs has a thermoswitch fitted - yet all have the connectors for it....
The manual indicates that overheating of the VFD will trigger an alarm - nice - that means the other two out of three won't! Interesting... I've just ordered five thermo switches (that's how many come in a packet for AU$ 6.71) to fit to the other two. I'll pass the remaining three on to other forum members who want them.
The connector pad(s) for them is labelled CN3 and is right next to the earth terminal on the lower main power PCB.
It is visible with the terminal cover off - if anyone wants to check if their VFD has that switch installed.

Oldneweng

17th May 2014, 07:57 AM

Thanks for that information CBA and Joe. Very useful. I will check my vsd for the thermo switch.

Dean

Stustoys

17th May 2014, 11:33 AM

Time for another thread Joe? I know there will be a lot of questions. I know I have a bunch.

Stuart

RayG

17th May 2014, 11:41 AM

Fitting the parts is no more complicated than any soldering of components by the way. I can't think what testing might be involved since they don't seem to be testing anything - not even for QA - in any case :roll:

In the process, I also discovered that only one out of three of my Huanyang VFDs has a thermoswitch fitted - yet all have the connectors for it....
The manual indicates that overheating of the VFD will trigger an alarm - nice - that means the other two out of three won't! Interesting... I've just ordered five thermo switches (that's how many come in a packet for AU$ 6.71) to fit to the other two. I'll pass the remaining three on to other forum members who want them.
The connector pad(s) for them is labelled CN3 and is right next to the earth terminal on the lower main power PCB.
It is visible with the terminal cover off - if anyone wants to check if their VFD has that switch installed.

Nice bit of detective work there Joe! :2tsup: it will be interesting to see how much effect the braking resistor has.

Ray

Oldneweng

17th May 2014, 12:49 PM

Joe.

What does this thermoswitch look like?

Is this the location you are referring to?

313891

I can't see a CN3 label.

Dean

cba_melbourne

17th May 2014, 01:43 PM

Joe.

What does this thermoswitch look like?

Is this the location you are referring to?

313891

I can't see a CN3 label.

Dean

Dean, I have no idea about these Chinese Huangyang. But I have not yet come across thermoswithes in VFD's, at least not in a very long time (they were common on heatsinks 20 years ago).

Modern VFD's do normally use one or more temperature sensors. This allows the processor to decide on automatic derating of the VFD as a function of ambient temperature and IGBT module temperature. If too warm, the VFD will as a first measure turn on the inbuilt fan (if this is not set by software to always run when the start button is pressed). If still too warm, the VFD will as second measure reduce in steps the PWM chopper frequency. This will increase audible noise, but keep output power intact. The lower the chopper frequency, the higher the chopper efficiency, the less the switching losses causing heat buildup. If still too warm, the VFD will as a third measure reduce the output power to the motor, if necessary down to zero (but typically some 10 to 15% reduction in output power for each 10C increase in ambient temperature).

EDIT: I just had a good look at your picture. These DC-bus capacitors at the back are only rated for 85C (85 degrees C)? That is not best practice. Normally VFD's would use at least 105C or better 125C capacitors for the DC bus. The DC bus capacitors are the most frequent failure reason for VFD's, that is why only the very best quality capacitors are used for this.

jhovel

17th May 2014, 08:12 PM

I finally finished my retro-fit of the braking circuitry in one of my Huanyang VFDs. It works!
I described it a little more and took a little video to show the results in the Hunanyang thread:
http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=96380&p=1775209#post1775209

jhovel

17th May 2014, 09:15 PM

With regard to the thermo switch I discovered in my test VFD, here is a photo of the power PCB of my second one (the test one is now back in the shed and difficult to photograph in its enclosure - sorry).
The switch is mounted below this PCB under a screw holding the capacitor PCB to the heatsink. It is a TO220 case with a heat sink tab.
See http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/351029054518
313933 313932

To CBA: I'm sure there are MUCH better ways of implementing VFDs than Huanyang's! They just happen to be the common CHEAP alternative. Many of us use them knowing full well that they are certainly not cutting edge or a lifetime investment....

I actually have a Telemecanique 1.5kW one that is at least 25 years old and still works fine. It cost about $5000 when new!!!
I also have a couple of small Siemens Micromaster VFDs and a Eurotherm 650. They are likely to be going when I'm not. These are only 0.3kW and cost around $650 each new now.....
So its horses for courses....

As it happens, a couple of days ago I also got another Chinese one in the mail - even cheaper :o its a 0.75kW Heng Tai HT1000B like this one:
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/HongTai-HT1000B-Frequency-Inverter-220V-0-75KW-750W-0-4KW-Heavy-Load-type-750W-400W-370W/1585922918.html
But I only paid $50 posted! It is apparently used in huge numbers in China, but there is no English language manual for it at all. I got hold of some of the pages of the Chinese manual and spent an enjoyable hour or so at the local University, getting a random group of Chinese students translating them for me :U. That was much harder than expected, because they had never heard words like 'Jog frequency' or 'DC braking current' in their own laguage either! We got there, but I'm still missing a lot of parameter information.
I'll keep on with my detetective work.... :doh:

Anyway, today I connected it (not that much to loose if it all went to $h1t) and it worked straight off. I can't set up the display yet, no the maximum frequency nor many other parameters, but it does work.
I only had a 1.5kW 4-pole motor handy to test it with today. This VFD model has no fan but didn't get warm at all. Of course that might be different with a 0.75kW motor on full load. One day I may get to find out. I want to use it for my cylindrical grinder which probably will never run at full load anyway.
Here is a short video of it in operation:
http://youtu.be/AHfy-VbTpOQ

RayG

17th May 2014, 10:19 PM

Good stuff, Joe.. I reckon this deserves it's own thread. Huanyang VFD Mods and Improvements.

In the video of the HT drive, what you are thinking is bearing noise, might just be electrical spikes getting into the microphone pre-amp..

Ray

jhovel

17th May 2014, 10:21 PM

Well, one of my many requests to various agents in China for a Heng Tai manual has paid off tonight!
I just received an e-mail from someone in China I have never heard of - so word has got around (or the State IS actually monitoring international e-mail there....).
Anyway, it is VERY helpful. It also came in MS Word format!!!!! So now I can edit it to make it readable (and get the few Chinese characters still there - and then of course make it available to whoever in the English speaking world might want it :U
I'm not sure yet if it is the complete manual or what's missing, because its only 16 pages lonmg, but it is described in the manual as a 'Simple VFD'... :roll:
As I was looking around the 'net, I also happend to notice that it is available without a case, just with a cable connected control panel - and even without that! And then a lot cheaper still....
Looks to me like a good option for building it right into a smaller machine tool! Maybe that's what it is actually for?

Stustoys

17th May 2014, 10:55 PM

Thanks Joe Going to need a list of your parameter settings.

Those even cheaper VSD's should be very handy for my jig grinder, for $50 its not worth the effort of making two motors run from one VSD.

Stuart

jhovel

18th May 2014, 12:49 AM

With regard to one of the much earlier posts here:
I just posted here http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=96380&p=1775262#post1775262
about a relatively cheap option of a remote Huanyang panel with mounting box and 5m of cable....

jhovel

18th May 2014, 12:59 AM

Stuart et al.
I bought my $50 one from a TaoBao seller directly. Very tricky business. I wouldn't recommend it to less than VERY patient people - unless you can read and write Chinese (Han).
However, if you search on Alibabexpress.com and you have an account there, you turn up many interesting things, e.g.:
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Simple-and-Easy-Frequency-Hongtai-HT1000F-220V-750W-550W-400W-200W-0-75KW-0-4KW/1590257750.html same as what I got,
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/VFD-frequency-inverter-Second-hand-Ht800C-frequency-converter-220V-0-55kw-0-4kw-550W-400W-free/1652037921.html or even
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Taian-original-second-hand-frequency-inverter-N2-2P5-H-220V-0-4KW/1605956419.html

Just because what you are looking for isn't there today doesn't mean it won't be tomorrow..... :doh:

RayG

18th May 2014, 01:56 AM

jhovel

18th May 2014, 02:23 AM

Thanks Ray. Yes, I tend to be pretty cautious - with my credit card detail in particular. I haven't paid by card on Alibaba or TaoBao ever.

Oldneweng

18th May 2014, 11:41 AM

cba_melbourne

18th May 2014, 11:54 AM

This morning I played with having a separate E Stop command. I got it to work. A number of hints have been made such as a NO switch.

Here is my circuit. I think it covers everything. I now have a Stop switch with ramp down and an E Stop switch with coasting stop. As Ueee mentioned, I need a coasting stop for the brake pedal. I had a look this morning and found the change gear door cutout switch was connected NO. I have not looked further yet.

313950

Dean

E-stops should always be NC, to ensure that a broken cable (or a loose connector or a bad crimp etc) result in the e-stop being activated. This forces the user to investigate and fix the fault before using the machine.

With an NO e-stop, you could be working for years with a non operational e-stop and NOT knowing it. The day you need the e-stop because the chuck is winding-in your tie, it is too late to find out it is broken.

Stustoys

18th May 2014, 12:24 PM

With an NO e-stop, you could be working for years with a non operational e-stop and NOT knowing it. The day you need the e-stop because the chuck is winding-in your tie, it is too late to find out it is broken.
This is the reason I dont use the E/stop circuits. Its also why my "normal off"(foot pedal brake) is the E/stop(as such) as thats the one I'll going to go for when it hits the fan.

Joe....I havent given it a lot of thought but re your braking stop/ coasting stop issues. How about swapping the e/stop and normal stop. E/stop(NO) normal operation with coasting stop. Normal stop (NC) for emg stop with braking? As I said I've given 0 thought to how you'd go wiring this up as I dont know how to "reset" the VSD after E/stop. Though I'd still be using the normal stop(which is the e/stop in this case) for normal operations for the above reason.

As for brakes. The rotor for my lathe brake is just bolted to the motor pulley, you dont need much of a brake really(depending on the size of the machine of course).

Stuart

Oldneweng

18th May 2014, 04:02 PM

E-stops should always be NC, to ensure that a broken cable (or a loose connector or a bad crimp etc) result in the e-stop being activated. This forces the user to investigate and fix the fault before using the machine.

With an NO e-stop, you could be working for years with a non operational e-stop and NOT knowing it. The day you need the e-stop because the chuck is winding-in your tie, it is too late to find out it is broken.

Agreed, but it has been discussed already in Joe's thread. That is the way SPL is set up on these VFD's. I have the momentary brake pedal cutout switch connected to E/Stop and has been mentioned, this is probably the one that will be used for nearly all stops which will provide constant testing. There is still the problem with the tie wrapping itself around the chuck when the wiring has just failed, but I don't even possess a tie so I don't see much risk there.:D

Stuart

This is the reason I dont use the E/stop circuits. Its also why my "normal off"(foot pedal brake) is the E/stop(as such) as thats the one I'll going to go for when it hits the fan.

How does this "NO" work any different to my "NO" E Stop switch?

Joe....I havent given it a lot of thought but re your braking stop/ coasting stop issues. How about swapping the e/stop and normal stop. E/stop(NO) normal operation with coasting stop. Normal stop (NC) for emg stop with braking? As I said I've given 0 thought to how you'd go wiring this up as I dont know how to "reset" the VSD after E/stop. Though I'd still be using the normal stop(which is the e/stop in this case) for normal operations for the above reason.

That is an idea worth trying. There is no need to reset the VFD after E/Stop. It resets itself as soon as the switch status returns to normal and the VFD frequency drops to zero. I have just tested this. Releasing the momentary E/Stop switch immediately does not cause the motor to start again.

As for brakes. The rotor for my lathe brake is just bolted to the motor pulley, you dont need much of a brake really(depending on the size of the machine of course).

My lathe is the same. Even at 100Hz it requires surprisingly little effort to stop the chuck.

Dean

Stustoys

18th May 2014, 04:28 PM

How does this "NO" work any different to my "NO" E Stop switch

I think my poorly worded post has confused you. I'll try again.
I dont use any NO circuits.
The foot brake is the way I turn the lathe off "almost" all the time, even though I could use either E/stop button or the lever.

Stuart

jhovel

18th May 2014, 04:38 PM

This is a very informative discussion. Just for the record, resetting the VFD after any error is just a matter of pushing the Stop button on the touch panel. It stays active even when all other controls are external. Although there is a parameter to disable that too....

Cheers,
Joe

jhovel

18th May 2014, 04:43 PM

I will see whats involved in changing my mill panel to separate the 'normal' stop from the E-stop. Apart from an extra wire.... which I don't have....

Cheers,
Joe

jhovel

18th May 2014, 05:44 PM

Dean et al.
So this should work for me? Haven't tried it yet...

314028
Edit: I've got myself confused too!
Now corrected button assignmets and labled their use.
PDs remain and were correct.
Note there is no button associated with PD46/Rst/D3

Stustoys

18th May 2014, 06:28 PM

Hi Joe,
So the NC switch it your E/stop?

After you do a "normal stop"(closing Spl)*. Dont you then need to open Rst before you can restart? Would be painful to have to press the E/stop(DCM NC) button to reset the VSD before closing For or Rev to restart.

Stuart

*damn this is confusing when you are using E/stop and normal and normal as E/stop lol

Oldneweng

18th May 2014, 07:32 PM

I think my poorly worded post has confused you. I'll try again.
I dont use any NO circuits.
The foot brake is the way I turn the lathe off "almost" all the time, even though I could use either E/stop button or the lever.

Stuart

What I wanted to know is what this E/Stop switch does to cut the power. If you don't have E/Stop circuits that implies to me that you don't use the VFD E/Stop function. Maybe I have that wrong.

Dean

Stustoys

18th May 2014, 08:19 PM

What I wanted to know is what this E/Stop switch does to cut the power. If you don't have E/Stop circuits that implies to me that you don't use the VFD E/Stop function. Maybe I have that wrong.

Hi Dean,

Thats right. I dont use the NO E/stop function on the VSD. The e/stop button is just another stop button.

There maybe a little confusion. My lathe doesnt have a VSD(I was just talking about the brake and e/stop set-up). My Mill has VSD, as far as the VSD goes there is no difference between the mills stop button and E/stop button.

Stuart

Oldneweng

18th May 2014, 09:00 PM

Dean et al.
So this should work for me? Haven't tried it yet...
313986

This is how mine would look with the addition of the jog functions.

314013

Note the correction for Jog REV.

I appears to me that Pd046 should be set to 13 and Pd049 set to 04.

I am not up to date on the ramp up and down aspects yet, but as DCM is set to ramp down via another setting as I read it, it would need to be set so there was no ramp down at all so the brake is not fighting with the motor, as Ueee mentioned.

I have no idea whether a ramp down value can be applied to SPL. If not it means that both stops will have no ramp down, so you may as well use DCM for all stops and set ramp down to zero. I could easily be wrong. Just my understanding at this point.

Joe are you planning on using a latching switch on DCM?

Hi Joe,
So the NC switch it your E/stop?

After you do a "normal stop"(closing Spl)*. Dont you then need to open Rst before you can restart? Would be painful to have to press the E/stop(DCM NC) button to reset the VSD before closing For or Rev to restart.

Stuart

Joe's SPL stop switch is momentary. It would be released as soon as you take your finger off the button. The VFD will then automatically reset when it reaches zero Hz. Remember I deliberately tested this action this afternoon.

Dean

jhovel

18th May 2014, 09:05 PM

Stustoys

18th May 2014, 10:31 PM

Joe's SPL stop switch is momentary. It would be released as soon as you take your finger off the button. The VFD will then automatically reset when it reaches zero Hz. Remember I deliberately tested this action this afternoon.
Thanks Dean,
I haven't used any 3 wire setup.
This fixes Joes braking issues correct?

I think we are getting the odd crossed wire between what Joe wants and what you. :)

Stuart

Oldneweng

18th May 2014, 10:31 PM

Just to report that I have edited my previous post. The diagram labels have changed a little and have headings.
The circuit was fine as it was.
I sent the question about different decleration and DC braking settings for the 04 & 13 parameter assignments to a new contact at Hyuria, one of the main manufacturers in China. Let's see if that person can find out.... There are 4 different settings possible - No.1 is 'normal' behaviour related to RUN commands, No.4 is related to JOG commands. As far as I can make out, No.2 and 3 are accessible only via RS485... maybe not.

Gotcha.

The circuit was fine as it was.

Except for Pd047 and Pd047. :D

I have a working setup. I am not about to change it in a hurry. I will have a play one day, but I have spent a lot of time on this recently and I need to devote some time to other jobs. I would like to actually use this lathe. It runs so smooth and quiet. The first job will probably be rollers for machine skates. I have not had access to a working lathe for many months.

Stuart. I did not assume you used a VFD. Now I know. I still don't understand why you say you don't use E/Stop circuits, but you still have a "Normal Off" ("Normally Open"?) switch for the foot brake pedal / E/Stop. This is what cba is talking about. A "Normally On" ("Normally Closed") switch is a fail safe. As cba stated, any fault and the entire system won't work. The switch for a fail safe circuit is "Normally Closed". Nomenclature mix up?

Dean

Stustoys

18th May 2014, 11:06 PM

but you still have a "Normal Off" ("Normally Open"?) switch for the foot brake pedal / E/Stop.
lol ok I think we got there this time.
No not "normally open".
"normal off" i.e. the way I turn the lathe off normally........ I wasn't all the happy with the wording.... seems I was right to worry. Sorry about the confusion.
So on my lathe, I normally use the brake pedal(which is how I plan on turning it off in an emergency).. On my mill I normally use the E/stop button which turns off the powerfeed as well but does not use the NO circuit of the VSD.

Hope I've cleared up my mess.

Stuart

Oldneweng

18th May 2014, 11:22 PM

lol ok I think we got there this time.
No not "normally open".
"normal off" i.e. the way I turn the lathe off normally........ I wasn't all the happy with the wording.... seems I was right to worry. Sorry about the confusion.
So on my lathe, I normally use the brake pedal(which is how I plan on turning it off in an emergency).. On my mill I normally use the E/stop button which turns off the powerfeed as well but does not use the NO circuit of the VSD.

Hope I've cleared up my mess.

Stuart

Ok. So you were talking about actions, not switch types. All clear now.:2tsup:

I have made so many changes in the last few days, I keep wondering if I have screwed up again. The lathe works perfectly. All is good. :2tsup: I can't wait to get some time to play with it. It is still sitting up on timbers about 200mm above the floor. Maybe I could stand on pallets or something like that. :rolleyes: This will be the first good lathe I have had to play with in over 20 years.:U

Dean

Aussie Bruce

18th May 2014, 11:35 PM

Hi guys

I hate to interrupt but have come to the conclusion i need to get on board with a 2.2 kw unit and as you blokes seem to have a handle on it can you please recommend a supplier ???

My De Valliere 140 needs to be up and running and i just cannot afford the 4k quoted to get the 3 phase on i will be starting my own thread latter on the conversion.

My braking can still be done by the original brake on the motor as its 24 volt etc and run off a transfomer

Thanks Gents Bruce

jhovel

19th May 2014, 01:15 AM

Look, the Chinese HY here:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/111007644616
is as good as any at this end of the market - but this one comes with a Quality assurance certificate for a medical steam sterilizer! SO it must be good.... :roflmao2:

The next level up would be a Delta VFD like this: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/221224559980
They are made in Taiwan and have a certain amount of quality control applied in design and manufacture.... at about double to cost.
This one is actually in Turkey, but you can get them anywhere.
or another Taiwanese brand one from Melbourne http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/281044149461 with a remote! (they also have one without a little cheaper....

Next up the food chain might be a Teco or a Eurotherm at about double that again. e.g. http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/110965795747 (you would be able to negotiate a better shipping rate).

Thn there are the Siemens, Telemecanique etc of the world of industrial control electronics - about double again.

My personal view is that in a hobby shop where you can afford a little down time - if the thing fails - you can buy 8 HYs before you hit the price of a Siemens....

Aussie Bruce

19th May 2014, 11:44 AM

thank you so much for the update Joe

Order is in for a China HY

Bruce

cba_melbourne

19th May 2014, 02:36 PM

.............My personal view is that in a hobby shop where you can afford a little down time - if the thing fails - you can buy 8 HYs before you hit the price of a Siemens....

Fair enough. I would be more worried about the hobby shop burning down than about the downtime :D.

For me, I rather go with a "New Old Stock" brand name VFD. Or a lightly used brand name VFD.

From time to time, I fall in the trap and buy Chinese because it is soo much cheaper. The last purchase was a brand new diesel generator. I did read that with some tender loving care they can last 1 or 2000 hours...... It lasted just 45 minutes, I was gently running it in at 20% load.... then the stator winding shorted out. Bad luck, it probably only happens to one in ten. Grrr.... the warranty is parts only, exchange at depot. Care for a pic?

314061314062314063

BobL

19th May 2014, 03:44 PM

Fair enough. I would be more worried about the hobby shop burning down than about the downtime :D.

My fire risk assessment of using chinese VFDs would be to put them at about the same level as all other chinese machinery and chinese power tools, especially as they are usually not used as unattended devices.

As far as I'm concerned there are far more significant fire risks in hobby sheds that folks should be worried about than the quality of machinery.

Some of you may have seen this poll
http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=182251

Note that I did not include "consider buying equipment from reputable source" as worthy of consideration as a significant fire preventative measure.

The stat that only 28% of respondents have a shed structure that is designed to suit the risk of a fire is something to worry about.

Aussie Bruce

19th May 2014, 07:32 PM

Ha I'm more worried about the oxy acetylene set / 5 motorcycle tanks of petrol and 10,000 and 1 tins of aerosol in my shed than an attended piece of computer gear on my lathe :U that will let out magic smoke if it goes pear shaped :D

Thanks all Bruce

Oldneweng

21st May 2014, 04:11 AM

I was talking to one of the sparkies at work yesterday. I was asking him about switch spacing for the VFD. I commented on the "Normally Open" switch requirement for the E/Stop. His reply was that it is normal practice with all PLC's to use that convention.

In regards to a similar matter, we have a problem with remote switches sometimes, when they are mounted in portable housings which have been dropped. The stop switch can pop off the back of the button section (probably other switches too) with the result that the pump will not switch off. I have had the situation where I had to turn off the power at the socket. A normally closed switch does not help in this situation.

Dean

cba_melbourne

21st May 2014, 10:05 AM

I was talking to one of the sparkies at work yesterday. I was asking him about switch spacing for the VFD. I commented on the "Normally Open" switch requirement for the E/Stop. His reply was that it is normal practice with all PLC's to use that convention. .................

Emergency and safety circuits should always be wired to the PLC using normally closed switches. This is to make sure that if a wire breaks or otherwise comes out of its contact, the circuit will be active (or fail safe). In a PLC it does not matter if you use a NO or a NC contact, the program does not care. You do not even think about NO or NC, you rather think of an input being "true if high" or "true if low". Besides, I believe it is regarded as bad practice to wire safety circuits directly into a PLC.

One should not use NO contacts for safety circuits, with one exception. There are situations, where even a safety circuit made with NC contacts in series is not regarded as sufficiently failsafe. This is when the possibility exists, that the wires of the safety circuit may be shortened together. In this case you would wire both NO and NC contacts and have the PLC compare both signals.

In your particular case at hand, where the VFD apparently only has a "true if high" emergency stop that cannot be reprogrammed, you could consider two things to invert the logic and still use NC safety contacts.
- use a relay in between the input and the NC contact
or
- wire the e-stop input with a pull-up resistor to the common + supply, as well as to the NC contact.

RayG

21st May 2014, 10:05 AM

Oldneweng

21st May 2014, 07:56 PM

Emergency and safety circuits should always be wired to the PLC using normally closed switches. This is to make sure that if a wire breaks or otherwise comes out of its contact, the circuit will be active (or fail safe). In a PLC it does not matter if you use a NO or a NC contact, the program does not care. You do not even think about NO or NC, you rather think of an input being "true if high" or "true if low". Besides, I believe it is regarded as bad practice to wire safety circuits directly into a PLC.

One should not use NO contacts for safety circuits, with one exception. There are situations, where even a safety circuit made with NC contacts in series is not regarded as sufficiently failsafe. This is when the possibility exists, that the wires of the safety circuit may be shortened together. In this case you would wire both NO and NC contacts and have the PLC compare both signals.

In your particular case at hand, where the VFD apparently only has a "true if high" emergency stop that cannot be reprogrammed, you could consider two things to invert the logic and still use NC safety contacts.
- use a relay in between the input and the NC contact
or
- wire the e-stop input with a pull-up resistor to the common + supply, as well as to the NC contact.

I am waiting to hear from Joe to see if swapping the Stop and E Stop connectors works ok.

No. normally e-stops and safety interlocks are wired in a loop so that any break in the loop will stop the machine. Maybe he misunderstood the question?

I don't think he misunderstood, and please don't shoot the messenger.:rolleyes:

My VFD and Joe's VFD both use

"Normally Open" switch requirement for the E/Stop.

So there must be some truth in this.

Maybe I should have said "it is normal practice for all PLC's to use that convention". It was 2:30am when I wrote this. He was talking about what the PLC does, not how it is connected. I guess what I am saying is that this convention is accepted as far as he is concerned. He is also required to follow the rules and regs, and accepted practice for the workplace. This may be different from Best Practice.

How the rest of the equipment is connected up is going to be a different kettle of fish I guess. The majority of VSD's are only connected to pumps, which do not represent a big safety issue in comparison to big rotating machines, all of which are protected with every safety device known. These machines also have reset switches which must be pressed for the machine to restart.

As far as the remote switches, sounds like they are using the wrong type of switch. If the switch pops off the stack it should open and stop the pump.

Maybe that is so. They are only stopping pumps. The power switch/socket is close by. I am by no means an expert in this matter. The E Stop switch I have came off the lathe. It was used with contactors. There are 2 pieces. The button which is attached to the housing with a threaded locking ring. The electrical switch which clips/screws onto the button piece. This is activated by a pointed plastic bit which just pushes on the switch pin. The stop switch I bought is the same except it is not latching. This is the only type of switch I have seen. You are saying that a Stop switch should lock into the button part?

Obviously the lathe is a machine that requires the best E Stops available. I am hoping Joe will report soon.

Dean

jhovel

22nd May 2014, 01:10 AM

He will - just not yet tonight.... :C

Possibly not tomorrow either... however, I have set and tried both parameter options on my HY VFD separately (not on the combine circuit yet) and both work.
I intend to use the HY E-stop (Parameter option 13) as my 'normal' operational stop - coasting to a stop using a NO switch, and the HY Stop (Parameter option 04) as my 'Emergency' big red latching button - and possibly additional knee/foot/safety limit switches all in series - using NC switches ramping down and DC braking as fast and as hard as possible without tripping any overvoltage or overcurrent alarms. That way, as discussed, the machine will come to a rapid halt if any wire gets broken, connection corrodes, switch fails or limits are reached - or I confirm that the colour of adrenaline is brown in a tool crash!
Rather than as HY seems to have designed their e-stop - finding out a cable is broken by the machine NOT stopping in an emergency :o

But then maybe the 'e-stop' label is a 'glitch' in the translation and in Chinese it said something like 'Electronic lunchbreak pause Setting'.....:;

cba_melbourne

22nd May 2014, 09:54 AM

Joe,

I have set up my lathes to use dynamic braking when the red mushroom is pressed. At the same time, I sometimes adapt the dynamic braking time depending on what chuck workpiece I currently use. With the small and light collet chuck, I can use braking times of down to 0.5 second and it will still reliably stop from 4000rpm maximum speed. But with a chuck and larger workpiece I may have to set this to about 3 or 4 seconds. If the braking time is set too short, the VFD "trips" and the spindle leisurely coasts to a halt.

Now the same happens when pressing the red mushroom. On the smaller lathe (1/2HP) I use a Siemens VFD and if the braking time is set too short, it will simply trip and coast to a halt. On the Hercus 260 I use a newer and more intelligent Yaskawa VFD. It can be set for an "optimum" braking time, where the VFD on the fly calculates the shortest possible decelleration without tripping, depending on the total inertia. That is a nice feature for an e-stop.

It is something to consider when deciding if the emergency stop shall cut the power to the VFD, or initiate a stop with dynamic braking. In my experience, if the VFD is chosen one or two sizes larger than the motor, the dynamic braking works much better on a machine with widely varying inertia like a lathe, where you can have different gear settings, different chuck weights and different workpiece weight all affecting inertia. This is not only theory, I currently run my smaller lathe with a smaller VFD than the motor (1/2HP VFD and 3/4HP motor). It is not an optimal choice because of the braking limitations, but I had to use whatever VFD bargain I had at hand at the time. Because it is a vector drive, it still performs better at low speed, than the 1HP non-vector VFD that I had before on this lathe. But if there is a choice, I would always recommend to choose the VFD larger than the motor.

Oldneweng

25th May 2014, 10:11 PM

When in Adelaide today, after a weekend family visit (missed our newest grandson's birthday plus my mom's birthday) I bought the parts I need (in multiples) from Jaycar.

I have a week off, so I will be able to do some work in the evenings, after some catch up farm work. I have designed a new housing for the VFD, made from particle board and 6mm plastic sheet designed to be used for electrical mounting purposes, which will be bigger, and have a filtration system using baffles on the back, and a foam filter element. An 80mm computer fan will provide air flow. The front panel (plastic) will be fixed, with all controls except for the main switch. This will be mounted on the original Lathe Control Panel. The back panels of the housing will be the access for the housing. The filtering baffles will be part of the rear opening back door. This will mean the wiring will not need to accommodate an opening door as with the current one. The air exhaust will be out the top, which will have a cap to prevent dust from settling on the fan. I will provide pictures as I build it.

This is the basic layout of the front panel.

314679

The VFD will be mounted on the back of this panel, inside the housing. I have not decided whether to have an E Stop on this panel, as I will have one on the brake pedal, which will be the main off switch with manual braking.

More to come.

Dean