table saw or circular saw? [Archive]

chylld

18th June 2005, 09:28 PM

Hi Guys,

been searching and browsing around this forum for the past hour or so, lots of interesting information i've found :)

i'm doing a project at the moment that requires me to rip and crosscut to about 340mm. i tried cutting straight edges using some aluminium railing with my jigsaw but unsurprisingly the results were pathetic. i need to cut straight edges, and a lot of them, so i'm looking for a better option.

my budget is a rather dismal AUD300-400. i know i'm well out of the range of the good (tsc-10hb like) saws but there was one gmc table saw that caught my eye at bunnings - the LS250TS 10" 2KW unit for $294.

i checked it out today, i don't give a buggery about the laser thingy, but apart from a $250 ryobi model it was the only one that satisfied my ripping width requirements. i'm happy with the fence but i'm not sure about how square the blade was to the table (with the blade set to 0 degrees). also the height adjustment on the store demo unit was broken.

so there's a question mark about getting a cheap table saw. would i be better off getting some aluminium guide clamps and a good circular saw? the stuff i'll be cutting will be at most 18mm pine and 12mm mdf.

any help appreciated - i'm not fixed on getting a table saw or anything yet :)

soundman

18th June 2005, 10:19 PM

Hve a look at carbatec, hare & forbes & timbecon before you make a decision.
There are some entry level machines there that arent wonderfull but they are better than a poke in the eye with a blunt stick.
cheers

ozwinner

18th June 2005, 10:39 PM

Ive cut many a peice of timber with a circular saw and a straight edge, with good results too.

Al :)

Grunt

18th June 2005, 10:40 PM

If you are doing a lot of MDF sheets, a small table saw won't cut it (pun intended). The table won't be big enough to hold an 8'x4' sheet and the fence won't move across far enough unless you want really small strips of MDF.

You'd probably be better off with a reasonable circular saw and a good guide. You could get a cheap mitre saw to do the cross cutting.

Dion N

18th June 2005, 11:03 PM

Get a quality circular and a straight edge to use as a guide. If you are just buying the tool for this project, you won't regret getting a quality circ saw. I'm sure it will come in handy for other projects around the house. A good brand will give you some resale value if you decide you dont' need it anymore.

If you are looking to get seriously into woodwork, save up for a decent tablesaw. The best advice and most common advice you will get on the forum is to buy the best quality you can afford first time. (other wise you will end up a constant urge to "upgrade" :D )

Gumby

19th June 2005, 12:10 AM

Given the budget, what about a second hand Triton Mk 3. You'll find one on ebay and be able to sell it again down the track. total cost after that , maybe zero.

chylld

19th June 2005, 01:09 AM

thanks for the replies guys, you've all been very helpful!

i had a look around the websites of carbatec, northwood, hare/forbes and timbecon, i don't like the look of the cheaper table saws, especially the gmc unit i was considering earlier now that i've seen the good ones. i'm definitely taking the advice that i should save up and buy the best one i can afford, especially since the table saw will become a key part of my workshop.

oddly enough, on none of the above websites could i find any circular saws. a bit of a disappointment, but at least i know bunnings has a lot of em :)

i had a look around ebay, there are some nice deals there but i think i want my own tool - i don't want anyone else touching it :) also the ease of resolving warranty with bunnys doesn't compare with an ebay seller.

so a 'quality' unit from bunnings i think it will be... what's crossing my mind now is: is this simply a stop-gap measure until i can afford a really good table saw? i don't think so, however, since even in my current project i'll need to crosscut pieces to about 800mm long - getting a tablesaw to cope with that is a bit of an ask. i think with a good circular saw and guide it'll be as trivial as any other similar cut.

now for the age-old question of which one i should get. 235mm seems to be too big and heavy. the toughest i'd get it to cut through is 12mm mdf. don't need portability, so cordless is out of the equation. dean rates the ryobi 1.5kw 7.5" unit quite highly, with that being $159 let's call that the roof for now. anything worthy for less than that?

Pat

19th June 2005, 01:38 AM

Go to a real tool (toy) shop and have a look at the various manufactures - Makita, Metabo, Bosch, Dewalt, Hitachi etc in the 7 1/4" (185mm) range. Look to see what base (thick Al) they have and if you feel comfortable lifting and wielding it(weight 5-6 Kg) . Ask for assistance . . .

A couple of examples

http://www.toolies.com.au/catalogue/ProductDetails.html?id=088381020237
http://www.toolies.com.au/catalogue/ProductDetails.html?id=9317340800322
http://www.justtools.com.au/category229_1.htm

A Al straight edge and a good quality saw will do you until you save up for the table saw. :)

Just for reference I own a Makita 5007NB, rips thru Ironbark . . . :)

Farm boy

19th June 2005, 02:18 AM

i bought a bosche 7 1/4 a few years ago now, its easy to handle and comfortable to use.

some blokes at work have the bigger 9 1/4 machines good for big wood but heavy to use all day
hope this helps
greg

chylld

19th June 2005, 02:31 AM

cheers farmboy :) bosch will be another brand i look out for.

Pat: (or anyone).. what are some good tool shops in sydney? i live in north west sydney (castle hill) so something up here would be best.

Duramen

19th June 2005, 02:39 AM

Check the totaltool (http://www.totaltools.com.au) and Glenfords (http://www.glenfords.com.au/catalogue/catalogueP1.htm) catlogues for circular saw within your budget.

I have a Hitachi C7SB2 (185mm) rated at 1710 watts with a nickel alloy base. It is a very good saw. :)

If you will rip a lot of mdf then try and find a circular saw with a sawdust extraction nozzle to which a vacuum can be connected.

NewLou

19th June 2005, 02:58 AM

Gidday Chylld:)

Save a little more if you can and go for a Quality 7 1/4" Circular Saw and an Ez Smartguide. I eventually went for an Hitachi C9 9 1/4" but shes A big mean brute of a thing and in hindsight I would have been better off sticking to a 7 1/4 size saw (Lighter easier to Handle)

Theres a bit of info on the Smartguide; which Brand of Circular SAw forum members like, and Dean has done a review on his Website.

This Will give you a good start:

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=12267
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=13045
http://www.onlinetoolreviews.com/reviews/ezsmart.htm

REgards Lou

chylld

19th June 2005, 12:38 PM

thanks for the info again - i'll definitely have a look at the hitachi units next time i go shopping. i think something around the 1000w mark will suffice for me, especially given my requirements.

i had a look around the total tools and glenfords websites, unfortunately their stores are a bit far away for my liking.

i spent another 10 minutes just then contemplating the gmc table saw but the circsaw/guide option seems much more appealling :) a bit more extra work yes, and i'll have to buy some sawhorses to support the work..

dean's reviews are excellent, however the ez guide system is way too expensive for what it is. it's a great product and i have no doubt that it works, but even for me it'd come after a table saw.

i just did some more thinking then, and i've realised that your sig Lou is the best way to go - do the best i can with what i have right now. at the moment i can get perfect edges by drawing out the pieces i need, rough-cutting them with a jigsaw and then finishing them off using my router with a flush bearing bit against my workbench edge. it's a 3-step process, which is why i was looking for a quicker option. table saw would be a 1-step process, with the circsaw/guide option being a 2-step process. the circular saw will also leave a rougher edge and might splinter the wood if i don't go and make a zero clearance insert.

so i guess right now i'm thinking:
is it worth spending $1k on a good tablesaw to reduce it to a 1-step process? yes.
can i afford it? no.
is it worth spending $2-300 on a circsaw/guide system that will produce similar or worse results???

i also just realised that if i use my router to actually cut out the pieces after i draw them out, it becomes a 2-step process. but then i'd have to go buy a guide rail and i'd be putting a lot of stress on the router bit.

sorry if it seems like i can't make up my mind, when your wallet is thin it becomes much harder to make good decisions :( thanks everyone for the help so far though, it's been great! :D

Gaza

19th June 2005, 01:12 PM

I am not a trition owner but given your budget and what you are trying to do, check out the "for sale" section on this web page as alot of the users have been moving up from the triton to 10inc table saws, Trition will give you both a c.saw and a table saw.

Buying tools on EBAY is not really a problem as often most of the sellers have store fronts as well, there is some great deals to be had, also check out the tradding post as there are cheap table saws in there most weeks,

NB; Beware cutting MDF with out vacum / dust control set up is very bad, you may wear a mask but the dust will hang around long time after you finsh cutting so when your kids go to find something they could get a lung full.

Gumby

19th June 2005, 01:24 PM

NB; Beware cutting MDF with out vacum / dust control set up is very bad, you may wear a mask but the dust will hang around long time after you finsh cutting so when your kids go to find something they could get a lung full.

Good comment. The current issue of Aust Wood review has a good article on respirators and starts off by saying that wood dust is rated as one of the most carcenogenic substances around. MDF is worse.

chylld

19th June 2005, 01:54 PM

i'll check out the forsale section thanks.

re mdf dust: yeh after i routed all my edges clean the floor was literally covered with a fully opaque layer of mdf dust. i wasn't wearing a respirator or dust mask or anything, but i couldn't smell it so i didn't worry about it too much. cleaned it up the day after.

i guess i should buy a proper shop vac - i have a spray paint mask that should do fine for filtering out mdf dust, but it doesn't seal around my chin very well. guess i'll have to modify it. a shop vac would be the best since it'll greatly reduce the problem at the source, but it really puts a strain on my budget. if i get one i'll barely have enough money left over for materials, and seeing as how i'm almost a thousand dollars into this project (it's not just a simple woodworking jobbie) it's stupid to back out.

is there anything in particular i should look for in a shop vac? space is not an issue.

chylld

19th June 2005, 02:22 PM

ok i've done a quick search, $189 for a 1hp 2-bag unit that'll help prevent me from getting cancer while doing my favourite hobby sounds very reasonable. it doesn't come with hoses and stuff though.

my router's extractor port thingy is only about an inch in diameter - the port on the extractor is 4 inches. any idea where i can find an adaptor? the cross-sectional area is 16 times smaller at the router, is that ok? i'd imagine it'd be as loud as anything!

ian

19th June 2005, 08:28 PM

what are some good tool shops in sydney? i live in north west sydney (castle hill) so something up here would be best.

Try Gasweld in Victoria Avenue (they're at the Windsor Rd end)

Almost any decent 7¼ saw will do what you want to do, just check the arbour for wobble. Also budget on buying a better blade—typically a circular saw comes with a blade optimised for solid wood not ply or MDF—and either making or buying a straight edge to guide your cutting.

If you're serious about looking after your health then you possibly should be looking at the Festo saw / guide rail / dust extractor combos — but be prepared for the "sticker shock"
Failing the Festo route, get yourself a dust mask rated for mdf dust (this will almost certainly be different to one rated for spray painting) and be assiduous about cleaning up and giving airborne dust time to settle before removing the mask.

For cross-cutting get yourself a sliding compound mitre saw. Timbecon in WA (they happily ship to Sydney) are selling a copy of the Makita LS1013 for $499 and what looks to be a copy of the 8¼ Hitachi for $299.

Ian

Grunt

19th June 2005, 08:39 PM

my router's extractor port thingy is only about an inch in diameter - the port on the extractor is 4 inches. any idea where i can find an adaptor? the cross-sectional area is 16 times smaller at the router, is that ok? i'd imagine it'd be as loud as anything!

Welcome to the cost of wood working. The dust collector works on volume of air not on air speed. You will probably find that the DC will not work very effectively on smaller power tools with small dust extraction ports. You will need to get a vacuum cleaner (a cheapie) and biuld yourself a mini cyclone.

Do a search on mini-cyclone and if your really want to find out more about dust collection do a search on cyclone and also visit Bill Pentz' site (www.billpentz.com) and click on dust collection and cyclones.

Grunt

Gaza

19th June 2005, 09:51 PM

Festo saw / guide rail / dust extractor combos
This a very costly option, i would personel if i was starting out build a bucket cyclone which is a true Aus invention (members of the site thanks Studee and others) you can just use an old house hold vac and a few bits a pecies. in relation to the saw Hitachi make a 71/4 c.saw that is set up for a vacum take off ie its has a round hole which you can put vac onto, this will look after 90% of the dust.

In relation to dust mask you will need a P1 or P2 type (refer to MSDS of MDF) a good quality paper one will do but you can get a proper one for about $40.00 from the big B, buy filters serparte to mask.

Duramen

19th June 2005, 09:55 PM

Read the following article to get a better view for the use of a circular saw:A Circular Saw in the Furniture Shop? (http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/w00035.asp)

Do look at the 185mm circular saws by Metabo and AEG since there have the sawdust extraction nozzle. Also call around the various tool shops and try and get the price down.

Gumby

19th June 2005, 11:02 PM

For a really good shop vac, check out Godfreys (if they have them in Sydney) I got a great little bagless unit for $99. It's a Pulman AS-3 and was $1999 but with trade-in only $99. If you ask nicely, they don't want the trade-in anyway so you'll get it for $99. It's great attached to the cyclone the others have mentioned. Mine is made out of the Triton Dust bucket and a 20L paint drum which you can get free at any good paint store - they usually just crush them anyway.

As mentioned by Grunt, this is far better for power tools than a 1HP DC. Your comment that you couldn't smell anything isn't valid. It's the tiny micro particles in the air that you can't see or smell which do the damage.

Grunt

19th June 2005, 11:09 PM

Your comment that you couldn't smell anything isn't valid. It's the tiny micro particles in the air that you can't see or smell which do the damage.

Yes, the Forward on the Bill Pentz site says it all.

Foreword

This site shares information to help hobbyists protect ourselves and those close to us from common respiratory health problems caused by fine wood dust. Most hobbyists know fine wood dust is unhealthy, but don’t think it is a serious problem because they only do a little woodworking now and then. My respiratory doctor says even though hobbyists only spend a little time doing woodworking, they often become the ones with the worst medical problems because they often have the highest exposures and frequently work with the most toxic woods. My friend who does OSHA air quality testing says most hobbyists when doing fine dust making activities, including hand sanding, end up with the airborne dust levels in their work areas and often their attached homes going over 10,000 times the allowable limits in regulated commercial woodworking facilities. He found my shop tested at over 12,000 times allowable commercial dust levels while I was running my large dust collector with fine filter bags, expensive overhead air cleaner, and big shop vacuum. If I was a commercial firm he would have had to immediately close me down and fine me. Think about it. Four hours of a hobbyist doing weekend woodworking can create more dust exposure than over a year of working in a regulated commercial facility. Worse, many respiratory doctors and woodworking unions believe the government air quality standards need tightened because too many still end up with serious respiratory problems.

Each hobbyist must do the homework to understand then address these risks with their personal dust collection solutions. Please take the time to read over my Medical Risks (http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/DocsOrders.cfm) web page and follow the links to see what the medical and health experts say so you can verify the medical risks for yourself. This site also shares what I learned and what I did to better protect my family and me, plus many less expensive options to make this chore a little easier for you. Please spend the time to carefully read and understand this material!

ian

20th June 2005, 12:38 AM

I would personel if i was starting out build a bucket cyclone which is a true Aus invention (members of the site thanks Studee and others) you can just use an old house hold vac and a few bits a pecies. in relation to the saw Hitachi make a 71/4 c.saw that is set up for a vacum take off ie its has a round hole which you can put vac onto, this will look after 90% of the dust.
Gaza
It's the 10% you don't get catch in your cyclone and "old house vac" that is the problem. The cyclone will be great for the big particles but it's the really fine stuff you have to catch and sadly most domestic vacs can't do it.

Ian

chylld

20th June 2005, 01:43 AM

ian:
ahh victoria avenue - now that's close! :) i'll drop by next time i'm out.

had a look in bunnings today (i seem to be there everyday) and found a maktec/makita 7 1/4" unit for $139. found it much more comfortable to hold than the much-recommended gmc platinum 9 1/4" unit. if i was to get a circular saw, it'd be the maktec.

unfortunately i was so enthralled by the shelf of tools i forgot to check to see which ones had dust extraction ports. i think the maktec unit didn't. i also forgot to check for arbor wobble. *idiot*

i think my spray paint mask is actually qualified for use as a dust mask, i remember seeing ratings on the back of the packaging somewhere that it exceeded the requirements for normal dust filtering. i just found the back of the packaging, the table i remember from before isn't there but it does say it protects from chemical stuff as well as toxic and nuisance dusts. i'm pretty sure it's safe :)

sliding compound mitre saw is another toy i want to get but it won't fit in with my budget. for now my jigsaw+router method will have to suffice.

Grunt:
i just read that billpentz site and it really changed my way of thinking. i'm only 22 at the moment, it'd suck big time if i developed respiratory problems at my age. from now on i'll wear my respirator all the time, and make sure the window (which leads straight into the kitchen!) is closed when i'm woodworking, and for a good few hours after. the shop room itself is very well ventilated though, with 2 huge meshed windows for circulation.

building a cyclone sounds like an interesting idea, i think i'll just use my dyson vacuum cleaner though. it's got cyclone technology as well as a HEPA filter, i figure if i can make a tube that'll connect it to my router, i'll be set.

Gaza:
looking after 90% of the dust sounds good to me. last time i used the router i was watching my apron turn from black to brown, i could feel the mdf dust and stuff hitting my apron :)

as said before, will check the specifics of the masks next time i go to bunnings (my one is one of the ~$40 'proper' ones)

Duramen:
great article, wish i read that earlier. inspires me to go the circular saw route again! metabo and aeg, ok will look next time.

thanks everyone for the comments - it's really changed the way i've thought of woodworking. looks like i'll be wearing my mask quite religiously from now on!

jchappo

20th June 2005, 09:57 PM

Have you considered the Triton Powered Saw Table?

Usually overlooked by forum members who have Triton Workstations, the PST is based on the Compact Saw Table, but comes complete with a Triton 184mm circular saw for about $400.

Although the table will not fill your immediate needs, the saw probably will, and you have a good entry-level table for later.

It can be fitted with a mini sliding table, router adaptor, bevel ripping guide etc.

I have the Compact fitted with a GMC Platinum 235mm saw, and find the combination very versatile

John

chylld

20th June 2005, 10:02 PM

hi jchappo,

thanks for the suggestion, i did have a good look at the triton unit before but it seemed quite flimsy - might just have been the sample on display but it didn't appeal to me very much then and i'm afraid my impression hasn't changed :(

thanks to everyone's suggestions though i'm pretty confident that the $139 maktec 185mm circular saw with the straight-cutting jig and sacrificial table in the article Duramen linked will suit my needs very well. all up it'll be like under $200, especially considering the fact that the saw comes with a 40-tooth tct blade as standard :)

mic-d

20th June 2005, 11:17 PM

chylld

8th January 2009, 02:42 PM

Well this is quite an old thread to revive, but it's mine after all :) I've finally bought myself a circular saw, a GMC 1200W unit on eBay for $15. Just taken up speaker building as my new hobby (much more satisfying than building drawers!) and used my good ol' jigsaw+router method to cut all the panels straight and true on my first attempt.

http://temp.jw.id.au/needlewaiting.jpg

The downside is it took seemingly forever, so I'll be making a straight-cutting jig to use with this saw and spend about 10x less time on trivial straight cuts.

Now to go and buy a guide clamp... which will cost more than the saw! :o

mic-d

8th January 2009, 03:28 PM

G'day Chylld, that's a blast from the past, did you also grow your own trees for the speakers?:p:D:D Looking good they are, and glad you are still woodworking.

Cheers
Michael

chylld

8th January 2009, 03:35 PM

G'day Chylld, that's a blast from the past, did you also grow your own trees for the speakers?:p:D:D Looking good they are, and glad you are still woodworking.

Cheers
Michael

Good to know you're still around as well Michael! Yes I planted MDF trees in my backyard so I don't have to make the long 6 minute drive to the hardware/wood shop anymore.

These speakers are the needles (Phil has a thread here on his needles (http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=39062), back in 2006) and curiosity finally got the better of me - just had to build a couple :)

Currently trying to decide between a fully DIY straight-cutting jig, or if I should integrate a guide clamp. I'd prefer full DIY, but I can't figure out how to design one that will cope with cutting narrow strips? (the jig will run out of workpiece to clamp on)

mic-d

8th January 2009, 04:29 PM

Once I get down to a slim cut that a straight edge can't be clamped to, I use the ripping guide with the saw. Most of those guides are pokey little things so a good modification is to screw a good true piece of timber to the fence to make a longer fence. Setting it parallel to the saw blade and extending forward of the saw allows you to register the saw accurately and parallel with the cut from the beginning... if you get what I mean.

Cheers
Michael

chylld

8th January 2009, 04:34 PM