Which Taps would you buy?

[ventureoverland]

Today I snapped my (cheap) M6 tap on my second of 6 holes... Not happy as on a Sunday arvo I couldn't find another quickly to get my job finished...

So I now need another M6 tap but thought I'd replace my other cheap ones with better quality ones whilst I'm at it.

So, what taps would you buy? Standard plug and taper or the spiral ones? Chinese or Australian/English/USA?

Also, should I look at second hand ones or new only?

I'm probably looking for M3 - M12.

Any suggestions, thoughts or recommendations please.

I don't want to spend a fortune as I don't use them all that often, but the cheap Chinese ones I have at the moment are rubbish.

Thx
Jon


Thx
Jon

[Techo1]

You get what you pay for with taps and dies Jon. The easiest to get quality taps would probably be Sutton or Goliath, these will be made from HSS with ground and relieved threads.

Lex.

[Ueee]

Hi John,
It depends on how much you want to spend, and what you call cheap......
My local shop sells sets of Guhring gun nose taps, M3-M12 plus correct drill sizes for about $120. I consider this to be good value but it may be more than you want to pay. I just bought a 10 piece set of Stock? brand (German) Gun and spiral M3-M8 for $49 off ebay. You just need to keep looking to find bargains on ebay.

I would only buy spiral or gun nose, spiral for blind holes and gun for through holes.

I like Dormers as they are what i can get locally and i have NEVER broken one, be it M3 or M16.

Here is an M6 on ebay out of the UK http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/DORMER-E507-TAP-M6-COARSE-X-1mm-SPIRAL-FLUTE-6mm-/320515145173?pt=UK_BOI_Metalworking_Milling_Welding_Metalworking_Supplies_ET&hash=item4aa030fdd5 the seller has heaps of other dormer taps so you may be able to get a few with combined postage.

Cheers,
Ew

[variant22]

My local shop sells sets of Guhring gun nose taps, M3-M12 plus correct drill sizes for about $120.
Wow! That is cheap for that sort of quality. If I had not spent my life savings buying each of Goliaths 3 tap sets in metric I would be getting the details..

I now generally buy HSS Dormer and Goliath taps as they are easiest to find on Ebay UK at a reasonable price (1/3 rrp).. I have broken too many tungsten/carbon steel taps to bother these days.

[ventureoverland]

Thanks Ew & Lex.

Can I ask what Gun Bose taps are? I've only ever ears of plug, taper & spiral before.



Thx
Jon

[jatt]

I have been getting good service from my Bahco tap and die set I picked up from the Big B (up to 12 mm metric) for about $60 That was at least a couple of years ago. They havent done hundreds of holes, but even so I have been using em on some old school MS with only one die thats lost a couple of teeth. As I kill em, will just replace respective units with better stuff.

For a relatively cheap set I'm pretty happy with em. I try and be gentle with em, knowing they arent exactly top of the range stuff.

Coupled with some good Sutton finishing taps for blind holes in the 4 sizes I use the most..

Already have a set of 0.1 mm increment drill bits (cheapy Chinese, from memory less that $100) for the final hole sizing prior to tapping. So no need to purchase correct size for every tap.

Sutton, P&N & Dormer seem to be the easiest for me to get my mitts on. Happily use any of em when looking for a better quality tap.

[snapatap]

I would buy good brand name ones eg. Sutton, Dormer, Goliath. The only cheap Chinese ones I've ever used were Frost ones, they were terrible couldn't even tap a hole with them. I only buy quality ones now, they are sharper which means less force to cut a the thread = less breakage. watch out buying 2nd hand, i recently bought a 1 1/2 unc tap on ebay, looked good in the photo. when i got it there was 2 chipped threads on the other side, so be weary if the aren't photos of the whole tap.

[variant22]

The only cheap Chinese ones I've ever used were Frost ones, they were terrible couldn't even tap a hole with them.
Tell me about it. I needed a M12 x 1.75 die as my lathe will not do 1.75. All I had was a set of Frost that I purchased a long time ago. Long and the short of it is I ordered a Goliath M12 x 1.75 today. The Frost was not even attempting to cut the thread. The sad thing is that Frost is owned by Sutton. I guess it has its place.

[Pete F]

Some of the "Australian" brands aren't what they used to be, I don't buy them anymore.

I use HTD taps for hand tapping, and spiral flute taps for machine tapping. I'm not sure what the price of HTD taps is as I buy them overseas, but think they may be good value even though Japanese made. I've found them to be excellent quality anyway.

I'll differ in my opinion from Ewan and suggest you buy your taps as standard set of 3 hand taps. Don't get me wrong, the spirals etc are very good, and as I suggested above, I use them too, but often a taper tap can be used unguided without any concerns about running straight. Often taps will break when they run slightly off, hence it's a good idea to guide them, but I will often run a taper tap without any form of guide without any issues; the taper will guide the tap quite well. The only downside is you need to run the tap almost all the way through which a slightly longer process, but faster than changing taps or even setting up a tap follower.

There's two things I always feel it's not worth scrimping on; measuring tools and taps/dies. It's just not worth the angst having either one unreliable will invariably bring.

[variant22]

Some of the "Australian" brands aren't what they used to be, I don't buy them anymore.

I noticed that now P&N drills are now made in China. That shocked me a lot given they are under Sutton. Sutton have Frost as their cheap brand, but now P&N?



I use HTD taps for hand tapping, and spiral flute taps for machine tapping. I'm not sure what the price of HTD taps is as I buy them overseas, but think they may be good value even though Japanese made. I've found them to be excellent quality anyway.

I will have to check out HTD taps. I have just purchased my first few YG taps. They are made in South Korea. I found them via people on PM saying they are a good replacement for Yamawa, which are excellent, but apparently now hard to get.



I'll differ in my opinion from Ewan and suggest you buy your taps as standard set of 3 hand taps. Don't get me wrong, the spirals etc are very good, and as I suggested above, I use them too, but often a taper tap can be used unguided without any concerns about running straight.
I also really like spirals. But ended up buying 3 tap sets from Goliath & Dormer. I had a spiral literally explode on me when it was slightly off center in my tapping head. It was Europa brand. Never again. No more Europa (I have broken a few of their "quality" taps), but also not using spirals as much as I used to. Only where I need to tap lots of holes on the mill or tap blind holes to get the extra depth.

[Ueee]

I'll differ in my opinion from Ewan and suggest you buy your taps as standard set of 3 hand taps. Don't get me wrong, the spirals etc are very good, and as I suggested above, I use them too, but often a taper tap can be used unguided without any concerns about running straight.

I agree that it is easier to line up a taper tap by hand. However i generally drill and then start the tap and the drill press so alignment is not a problem, and if you cannot do this a tap guide is a good idea.

All the straight taps i have broken though i have done so backing off the cut and having it jamb. Not a problem with spiral/gun taps as they should not be backed off.

The gun taps are stronger than the spiral taps and will take more before letting go. It is worth noting that the theoretical tapping size is not the drill size that should be used. You really should have some clearance, 75-80% thread depth is good. Commercial tapping is generally done at 65%.

A gun nose or spiral point "shoots" the chips out in front of it, hence why it is best for through holes.
318337


For some reason searching google images for Gun nose tap i got this beauty.....
318336

Cheers,
Ew

Edit, here is a specials page for the Guhring sets. Its not current though. http://www.guhring.com.au/monthly-special/September2013/

[Pete F]

I agree that it is easier to line up a taper tap by hand. However i generally drill and then start the tap and the drill press so alignment is not a problem, and if you cannot do this a tap guide is a good idea.

All the straight taps i have broken though i have done so backing off the cut and having it jamb. Not a problem with spiral/gun taps as they should not be backed off.

Drilling and then using a tap follower or other method of guiding the tap immediately is fine for one-offs, but a total PIA when multiple holes are being drilled and tapped and it would take forever. I often come across situations where a hole needs to be tapped that won't fit under a drill press. I have a few tap guides that can be used by hand, including a simple block with appropriate size clearance holes I made up, but there are times when even they can't be used for one reason or another.

I agree, backing off is another classic time taps will break.

The amount of acceptable thread engagement will depend on the application, the "recommended" drill size assumes full engagement. I'll often go oversize with my drill size if it's not a critical tapped hole, having said that have never had an issue since throwing all my cheap taps in a bid with a hearty "good riddance" to see them on their way. I guess maybe 50% of the time recommended hole size and the other half I'll go larger.

Each tap style has plusses and minuses, and there's no perfect solution where one size fits all. Well, short of buying one of each style of tap in every size I guess! What I use is my opinion for what it's worth.

[Ueee]

Drilling and then using a tap follower or other method of guiding the tap immediately is fine for one-offs, but a total PIA when multiple holes are being drilled and tapped and it would take forever.

I find with a keyless chuck you can swap pretty darn quick, center drill, tapping drill, back gear, tap and then finish by hand. Next.....
A taping chuck would make it so much easier but as i said above on most tapping chucks it says "recommended thread depth 65%"


Each tap style has plusses and minuses, and there's no perfect solution where one size fits all. Well, short of buying one of each style of tap in every size I guess!

Your not wrong there! If only funds where unlimited.....

Ew

[Ropetangler]

Thanks Ew & Lex.

Can I ask what Gun Bose taps are? I've only ever ears of plug, taper & spiral before.



Thx
Jon

Hi Jon, Here is a Goliath Product price list link which will show and tell you more about the different sorts of taps and dies available than you probably want to know. It variously comes up as a 2003, 2006 and also a 2014 price list, but it has lots of good info and the prices are not exactly mouthwatering, more like eye watering, but armed with the info within, you can chase bargains on eBay like the one Ewan got. If the situation is a bit urgent and you can't afford to wait, you might be able to just get the ones you need for now, and keep an eye out for a bargain for the others that you'd also like to get, and pick them up as you can. Good luck,
Rob.

http://www.goliath.com.au/pricelist%202003.htm

[Hornetb]

Some good info here. Like many, I am due to upgrade to better taps.

What I notice, particularly in the cheap sets is that the handles also are absolutely rubbish.

So does anyone have any recommendations on brands of good handles to drive your taps?

[.RC.]

I'll often go oversize with my drill size if it's not a critical tapped hole,

When you become as skilled as I am with hand sharpening drills free hand on the grinder you do not need to use a larger drill as all my drills now drill oversize automatically...
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:D

[Stustoys]

What I notice, particularly in the cheap sets is that the handles also are absolutely rubbish.

So does anyone have any recommendations on brands of good handles to drive your taps?
Not just the cheap sets.

I only have one recommendation. For the love of "insert deity of your choice", dont buy anything by Goliath without having a good look at it first.

I have a fair load of Goliath handles.......... I'd give them to you... but I wouldnt give them away...


Stuart

[variant22]

Not just the cheap sets.

I only have one recommendation. For the love of "insert deity of your choice", dont buy anything by Goliath. Without having a good look at it first.

I have a fair load of Goliath handles.......... I'd give them to you... but I wouldnt give them away...


Stuart

Funny that you mention that. I was looking for a Goliath spring loaded tap handle, with a dimple in the top for a lathe center. No dice. The Goliath tap runners looked very ordinary indeed.

[Ueee]

I think greenfield are some of the best handles money can buy. Not that I have any but that is what I have read.

I regularly use a pair of old p&n's, fragram ratchet t bars and an old tiny little m&w for m3 and 4s.

Ew

[jmebgo]

Some good info here. Like many, I am due to upgrade to better taps.

What I notice, particularly in the cheap sets is that the handles also are absolutely rubbish.

So does anyone have any recommendations on brands of good handles to drive your taps?

Could be a good project to make your own as this fellow has done.

http://home.comcast.net/~tarum/Tap_Wrench.html

They are from plans by South Bend. Not sure what the policy here is regarding linking to another forum (PM) but there is more information out there regarding this particular project and how it was made.

Joe

[eskimo]

http://www.goliath.com.au/pricelist%202003.htm

yep..eye watering but they are full retail prices....you do need to shop around....you can get them for a lot less

[Ropetangler]

When you become as skilled as I am with hand sharpening drills free hand on the grinder you do not need to use a larger drill as all my drills now drill oversize automatically...
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:D

Possibly the only skill which I would excel over you RC.:q

[Hornetb]

Yeah I bought an el cheapo ratchet T handle from Nubco. Heap of poop, hence why I would be reluctant to buy any no name brand one in future. My guess is anything with a decent name on it would probably be ok (eg. Starret, etc).

The sad thing is I spent probably thirty minutes on my "el cheapo" cleaning up the nasty threads and creating a centre point in the butt end for the tail stock etc. Then I actually inserted a tap in it and realised that the collet that held the tap was bored so out of line that it was unbelievable and in no way salvageable. I should have taken it straight back but I was tempted to just throw it in the river to teach myself a lesson. But instead I keep it as a reminder to try to not buy cheap tools. :doh:

[Hornetb]

Could be a good project to make your own as this fellow has done.

http://home.comcast.net/~tarum/Tap_Wrench.html

They are from plans by South Bend. Not sure what the policy here is regarding linking to another forum (PM) but there is more information out there regarding this particular project and how it was made.

Joe

Very nice. I suspect its worth my while having a go at that and its a nice little project.

Thanks.

[Anorak Bob]

I think greenfield are some of the best handles money can buy. Not that I have any but that is what I have read.

I regularly use a pair of old p&n's, fragram ratchet t bars and an old tiny little m&w for m3 and 4s.

Ew

I do have some Greenfield handles and they are SUPERB. I posted this a while back, might be of interest again? http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=137810&p=1343273#post1343273

BT

[Stustoys]

I would only buy spiral or gun nose, spiral for blind holes and gun for through holes.
Turns out there are bottoming gun taps. I'm going to need more room.

Stuart

[variant22]

Turns out there are bottoming gun taps. I'm going to need more room.

Stuart
I have been trying hard all day to not email the Guhring guys. The price on some of their sets is unexpected in a good way (for once)! So many delightful treats. I managed to traverse all their previous monthly deals - tasty! All I can say is my finances are fortunate their Online Shop is not up and running yet..

[Michael G]

Die holders are not impossible to make. Tap holders are trickier, but the hardened steel jaws are only little so should be able to be hardened with a torch. A LH thread or two and you are laughing...

http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=149151&p=1455664#post1455664

Michael

[Jekyll and Hyde]

I think I may end up being the proud owner of some Guhring taps in the near future... I've been thinking I need some proper machine taps, and conveniently enough I drive through Oakleigh once a week... :D

Whilst poking through the monthly specials, I noticed they actually have an app for iPhone/iPad for determining milling/drilling/tapping/reaming speeds... It's called 'Optimising', can be found in the Apple store. Worth a look, and maybe quite useful for some out in the workshop...

[Ueee]

Whilst poking through the monthly specials, I noticed they actually have an app for iPhone/iPad for determining milling/drilling/tapping/reaming speeds... It's called 'Optimising', can be found in the Apple store. Worth a look, and maybe quite useful for some out in the workshop...

Doesn't look to be available outside the walled garden:(

Buy some, you won't be disappointed!

Ew