A half-back saw

[IanW]

Finished this one off today. 319674

The vital statistics are: 14 inch blade, 10 tpi (rip), 0.025" plate, Tulip Oak handle. The design is based on the Disston half-back.

I had planned to work on it as my demonstration piece during the workshop on Sunday, but ended up not touching it all day. The saw plate is thinner than the couple of half-backs I've made previously, for which I used 0.030" plate. I was a bit anxious about the 'free' blade being a bit too whippy, so I hammered it to put some tension in the blade. It seemed to work a little bit, but I'm still pretty tentative with my saw tensioning, & afraid of marking the plate,so I probably dont hit it quite hard enough. In any case, the saw cut nicely & tracked straight, & doesn't feel like it wants to bend up under pressure.

As a matter of interest, the Tulip Oak is from a chunk I picked up at the wood show in May. It's a dense wood and not bad to work with, though it's easy to split out the edges if you are too enthusiastic with the rasp. It finishes nicely, but the colour & grain pattern make it very hard to see small defects in the surface. I thought I had it perfect until I applied the finish, and discovered the row of small indentations you can see across the middle . I will have to dismantle it & re-sand that side. :~

Cheers,

[planemaker]

Nice work Ian. The unique shaping of the handle and brass back is something I have not witnessed with your saw making work in the past. Kudos for working outside your normal comfort zone.

regards; Stewie. :2tsup:

[IanW]

Thanks, Stewie. The handle shape is one I developed from the original, over about 3 'generations', but I'm only beginning to play with brass decoration. My attempts are pretty timid at this stage, but I'll certainly play around a bit more & attempt more elaborate decoration in future. Since my saws are for (I hope) heavy use, I have been reluctant to get too wild. So there'll likely only be a few show ponies issuing from this stable, I'm afraid... :U

Cheers,

[FenceFurniture]

Very nice Ian. Is that the Dillenia that you and Paul went halvies in?

As a suggestion - what about another notch at the front top of the brass, just for a bit of visual balance?

[IanW]

.... Is that the Dillenia that you and Paul went halvies in?..

Hmm, p'raps you should borrow the Optivisor now, Brett, this Mr. Magoo disease is catching! Line 2 in the original post:

.......14 inch blade, 10 tpi (rip), 0.025" plate, Tulip Oak handle (italics added to maximise embarrassment)....... :D :D

I did buy it at the show, though, along with the Dillenia. Haven't used any of the Dillenia yet, but one of the participants at the w'shop used it for his handle. He didn't get to the stage of applying any polish, but it works pretty well, and gives a nice surface off the plane, & I think it should be quite good, but I'll hold on the endorsements til I've actually made a handle from it, myself.

I'm in two minds about the Tulip oak, though. It works ok, and is dense, strong stuff that should last, but man is it a bear of a wood to finish! I pulled the handle off this morning, and scraped & sanded the cheeks & middle of the handle where the marks were. Thought I had it perfect, this time, and even gave it another good sanding after it looked like the marks had gone, just to be certain sure. Then I put the shellac on, and out popped a bunch of divots I'd missed - they are almost impossible to see on the sanded wood, because of the grain pattern, but show up immediately when you wet them with finish. :~

Second try finally got it right. Happy now: 319750

Cheers,

[FenceFurniture]

Heh heh, I did actually see the Tulip Wood, but I couldn't remember if that was yet another common name for Snakewood/Dillenia. From memory it doesn't look all that dissimilar either (apart from colour which can be influenced by light source under photography).

Anyway, it's a fine job you've done there.

[Simplicity]

Excellent work yet again Ian
And good to see some decorative brass work coming out of the woods so to speak.
Did I start all this a while back or should I just try not to get a big head lol.
With the medallion being slightly proud do you find it in the way so to speak.

[JDarvall]

Do you take orders Ian ? I know someone who maybe interested.

[IanW]

Heh heh, I did actually see the Tulip Wood, but I couldn't remember if that was yet another common name for Snakewood/Dillenia. From memory it doesn't look all that dissimilar either (apart from colour which can be influenced by light source under photography).

Anyway, it's a fine job you've done there.

At least we are even, for now. :;

Actually, the Dillenia doesn't seem to have any common commercial name, though no doubt the Solomon islanders have a name for it. It's cousin in Nrth. Qld. gets called "Red Beech". It's similar to the Solomons wood in texture & grain pattern, but far less dense (or at least the small piece I have in my possession is), and the S.I. Dillenia is a very deep brown colour as opposed to reddish.

If you had the Dillenia & T.O. side by side in your hands, you'd see they are very different, not just in colour, but the grain patterns are quite unalike. However, I do agree that it's hard to draw too many conclusions from photos. Especially mine....

Cheers,

[IanW]

..As a suggestion - what about another notch at the front top of the brass, just for a bit of visual balance?

I was so pleased with myself catching you out, I forgot to answer the question. Doers that put me behind again? :U

Yairs, I think it could do with a bit more of something, & I was going to bring the top of the front over in a similar pattern to the back, but lost my nerve. Easy to add something later, but hard to remove something if it looked ott. I may yet summon up the courage to go back & do more, but I'll think about it for a little while.

Cheers,

[IanW]

Do you take orders Ian ? I know someone who maybe interested.

I have done, Jake, but I have a very long waiting time. That was due to difficulty getting the right saw plate, so I should be caught up in few months, I hope...

Cheers,

[IanW]

....And good to see some decorative brass work coming out of the woods so to speak.
Did I start all this a while back or should I just try not to get a big head lol....

Well you were certainly the first to post on the topic, so maaybe you should get a bigger hat size... :U


....With the medallion being slightly proud do you find it in the way so to speak...

The medallion is on the left side, which is where they are usually placed, so no fingers go near it, unless you are a southpaw, or use a very odd grip. The 3% of the population who are left-handed will just have to order theirs with the medallion on the other side.... :;

Cheers,

[JDarvall]

Well, I'd like a nice tenon saw. Love the look of those handles.

I'm in no rush for one, but maybe sometime down the track, should you feel inclined.

Paying job of course, or else no go…. or maybe some kind of swap. What I could possibly swap with you I'm not sure of….. timber ? got silky oak, jacaranda, river oak, rosesheok, red string bark, sallywattle….or cash. anyway.

cheers

[FenceFurniture]

Yairs, I think it could do with a bit more of something, & I was going to bring the top of the front over in a similar pattern to the back, but lost my nerve. Easy to add something later, but hard to remove something if it looked ott. I may yet summon up the courage to go back & do more, but I'll think about it for a little while.

Cheers,Yep, just a single matching notch at the front will do it.

[Sawdust Maker]

Dammit

I thought I'd said it looks pretty speccy when I saw the post yesterday :~

mustn't have hit the post button:doh:


Anyway
pretty speccy! :2tsup:

and to comment on Fency's fancy work question on the brass work
I'd suggest a little bit of scroll engraving down near the end

[derekcohen]

Nice looking saw, Ian ... as always :2tsup: I like that little upward sweep forward of the horn.

Interesting length plate - 14" - for a half back .... is there a specific reason for this? Mine is 24", designed for crosscutting at the bench. 14" would be a tenon length, but then would a fully supported back not be better?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[IanW]

Interesting length plate - 14" - for a half back .... is there a specific reason for this? Mine is 24", designed for crosscutting at the bench. 14" would be a tenon length, but then would a fully supported back not be better?

Thanks Derek.

According to the entry in the Disstonian institute, Henry's version ranged in size from 14" to 20", so yours must have gotten into the anabolic steroids at some point! :U

The size of my saw has a story behind it. I saw a pic of the first halfback, & I just liked the funky look & wanted to make something similar for fun - I wasn't thinking of practicality, or ultimate use, it was just a nice project to play around with. At the time, the only suitable bits of plate I had were the Bunnings scraper blades (~0.030"). These were 14 inches long, so that set the maximum length of the saw, though I would have liked to make it just a wee bit longer, at the time. Henry was a good salesman, but must have failed his grade 4 arithmetic class, because the backs on his saws look more like 1/3rd of the blade length than 1/2, to me. :; In fact, I put a 150mm spine on mine, which is exactly 1/3rd, so maybe we ought to be referring to them as 'third-backs'. :?

By sheer serendipity, 14" turns out to be just the right size for this saw, for me. I really like the heft & action of it, & I found I was using it far more than I ever expected. Having 2/3rds of the blade free of the encumbrance of a spine can be a boon, in some situations. I found I was even using it to rip small pieces, so made a dedicated 14" ripsaw without any spine, and it also performs nicely. I wonder how I ever got along without them!

Fast forward to the current saw. Bunnings scraper blades seem to be a thing of history, so when asked to make a couple more half-backs, I had to find suitable plate. I spent some time scratching around - I tried buying some blanks from Wenzloffs, but that was about the time they went AWOL, so that came to naught. Another Forumite decided we should import a few rolls of saw steel for the Melbourne workshop. Noone needed or wanted 0.030" plate, so we ended up compromising on some 0.025" for the larger saws. I thought this would be ideal for full-backed saws up to around 14", but was rather dubious about how it would go on a half-back, & certainly didn't want to push it past 14". In the event, I needn't have worried, the saw above performs very well, and feels very taught, either because of, or in spite of, my attempts at a bit of extra tensioning, and could take another 2" of length, easily, I reckon. To be honest, I wonder if the bit of spine on these saws isn't really more decorative than functional. It does add some stiffness toward the handle, which probably improves overall action - I should try one for a while without any spine, just to see. I'm about to make a 4" x 14" tenon saw from the same plate thickness, with the same tpi & also rip configuration, so it will be very interesting to compare the taughtness & actions of the two saws.

On the subject of saw size/length, we've discussed this before. In my view, the size saw you prefer a very personal thing, & judging by the sheer range of saws available in years past, has always been so. I tend to like to use the smallest saw that will fit the job, but other folks like to feel they have a real saw in their fist when tackling any size job, it seems. At the workshop I had last weekend, two people wanted to make 4" x16" tenon saws. I warned them I was unsure about using 25 thou plate for such a large saw, and even more unsure if a 3/4 x 1/4 spine would be stiff enough. However, I was wrong (again!) - they turned out fine. The spine holds the blade firm & straight despite the depth, and you probably wouldn't want the spine any heavier, or the saw would be just too unbalanced for comfort.

Apologies for the long-winded answer, but I thought you wouldn't mind a bit of explanation..... :U

Cheers,

[derekcohen]

Great explanation, Ian!

And you are half right (or should that be third right :) ), my arms are not that long and the plate of my Wenzloff half back is actually 18". The 24" I had in mind was a panel saw. To be frank (well, rather than henry), I think that the benefit from a half-back over a panel saw is not big, as you also note.

I have not been out looking for the Bunnings scrapers for a while. Gone? Sometimes the smaller branches do not carry the range of their large superstores. Still, they were only 14" and my preferred tenon saw length is 16".

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Simplicity]

Ian
If you ever pen a book on wood working or just ramblings about wood working saws ext
Please put me down for a copy
I always enjoy reading your posts
Don't always agree but do enjoy reading them none the least
Matt

[IanW]

Thanks Matt. My offspring & other half will tell you that I do rambling to excess. :U

And good heavens, man, I certainly hope nobody agrees with me too often, or I'll have to go elsewhere to get a decent debate! :;

Derek, I suspect the Bunnies scrapers are gone forever, I've checked out all the large & smaller stores within a cut lunch & a full water bottle's distance from me, and there's not a single scraper blade to be had in any of them. Interestingly, I've been told twice by different red-shirt-wearing chaps that they've never carried such things (in stores where I previously bought them!). :? Anyway, having just acquired the lion's share of a 50ft roll of 25 thou saw plate, I think I'm ok for saw plate for larger saws for a little while. So Bunnies: :q

I will have to make a study one day, of different people's preferences for saw lengths, to see if it has anything to do with anatomical features like relative length of arm bones. :U I suspect it is simply what we get used to, & nothing to do with body conformation. We all seem to have our own comfort ranges, and for me, 300mm or 12 inches, if you like, is just a very comfy length for medium-sized saws - enough teeth to get good long strokes without being too bulky. Today, I've been working on a 14 inch tenon saw for someone else, and got it to the stage where I could do a test run. I could live with a saw like that quite happily, if I had to, but comparing it immediately with my own (12") saw with same tooth pitch, it's just a bit more like driving a ute instead of a car.

Viva la difference...... :U

Cheers

[Simplicity]

Ian
I think you may not be the only one with a rambling problem.
It seems to be a social issue with people into wood work hand made tools.
Guys who think everyone is interested in debating the merits of a 8 inch dovetail saw compared to the 8 and 1/4 inch saw with no set.why don't they understand this important issue
it god I think I'm invected too.
Did I mention politics and my view there lol.

[Sawdust Maker]

Hmmm, interesting

My family goes into hiding when I get the soapbox out! :-

PS
Ian

We here value your ramblings
we may ignore them, but they are valued none the less :2tsup:

[JDarvall]

My offspring & other half will tell you that I do rambling to excess. :U


IMO, its not really a problem rambling on the internet. Not like face to face, when you feel obligated to listen and look interested to the rambling else you look rude.

And I think the ramblers generally are the most honest anyway. Not filtering their thoughts so much, to better their situation.

In anycase, I appreciate it, because I can compare with my experiences. Gives me ideas sometimes. Nothing more painful than trying to extract information from someone who gets off on some kind of empowering feeling of knowing best. So they gota keep it all a secret.

Being a rambler is FAR FAR better, than a quite 'know it all'…..who does the safe thing, and listens only….who doesn't contribute to maintain that air of…. ' I know it all already'……who when actually hears something they didn't know, pretends they new it all already. The type that seldom gets caught out because its safer to say nothing…… who only gets caught out after its become certain they've discovered a fool.

Stuff like this can give the word 'professional' a dirty name.

Then there's the type, who you don't even know, that react to their anonymous ears dropping of the internet, by 'cleverly' telling you in person, in a subjective way essentially that they can read. Or then meddle in some way without your knowledge. Seems to be a big part of their life.

I reason be yourself.

Its just an opinion. These are just things I've noticed from people in my experience. I'm am NOT an expert in human behaviour. 2cents worth.

[chook]

On the subject of saw size/length, we've discussed this before. In my view, the size saw you prefer a very personal thing, & judging by the sheer range of saws available in years past, has always been so. I tend to like to use the smallest saw that will fit the job, but other folks like to feel they have a real saw in their fist when tackling any size job, it seems. At the workshop I had last weekend, two people wanted to make 4" x16" tenon saws. I warned them I was unsure about using 25 thou plate for such a large saw, and even more unsure if a 3/4 x 1/4 spine would be stiff enough. However, I was wrong (again!) - they turned out fine. The spine holds the blade firm & straight despite the depth, and you probably wouldn't want the spine any heavier, or the saw would be just too unbalanced for comfort.

Apologies for the long-winded answer, but I thought you wouldn't mind a bit of explanation..... :U

Cheers,

I was one of the two who wanted the big tenon saw. No doubt it is a bit heavier than some May want but I love it. No sign of flex and cuts beautifully. The weight and the length suit me fine and it is a pleasure to use.

Secondly I am sure that the other two men would agree with me when I say that Ian is a skilled maker, a good teacher, patient and generous. It was 8.30 at night when I left and I have no idea when the workshop doors finally closed.


Thirdly Ian has something to answer for! Now I have had some small taste of saw making I find my self looking to get the tooling to make some more. The half back rip and cross cut will be first of the mark.

[Bushmiller]

I will have to make a study one day, of different people's preferences for saw lengths, to see if it has anything to do with anatomical features like relative length of arm bones. :U I suspect it is simply what we get used to, & nothing to do with body conformation. We all seem to have our own comfort ranges, and for me, 300mm or 12 inches, if you like, is just a very comfy length for medium-sized saws - enough teeth to get good long strokes without being too bulky. Today, I've been working on a 14 inch tenon saw for someone else, and got it to the stage where I could do a test run. I could live with a saw like that quite happily, if I had to, but comparing it immediately with my own (12") saw with same tooth pitch, it's just a bit more like driving a ute instead of a car.

Viva la difference...... :U

Cheers

Ian

I think you hit the nail on the head with " I suspect it is simply what we get used to..." I have a 16" Abbeydale (Made by Tyzack) saw that when I first got it I found incredibly heavy, but I quickly got used to it. The reason for the heaviness is the huge back on it, which is significantly larger than the much larger mitre saws I have. I have recently converted it to a rip configuration and with the extra heft it performs better as a rip than a crosscut: At least that is my perception.

Just on the subject of 14" saws, I happen to have both a half back and a full back and I am finding them a perfect size. I don't know how I managed before :wink::D .

Regards
Paul