BAD WOODS - Timber health hazards [Archive]

wheelinround

23rd July 2014, 06:23 PM

I'll add Oleander (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002884.htm) I have known of this since a kid greatly surprised at the number of schools and even pre-schools have them around.

A short while ago I was given some of the above cut up for pen blanks and stuck in a plastic bag I was warned it MAY BE Oleander.
This week I was sorting through my box of blanks and noticed that the blanks now had a sulphur powder looking substance to them.

It has now all been disposed of

http://oleander.org/images/Headers/toxicitybkgrnd.gif July 23, 2014

INFORMATION ON OLEANDER TOXICITY

Most importantly - If you, or anyone/thing else, believes they have been in contact with any poisonous materials, contact your local Poison Control Center.
The American Association of Poison Control Centers has a great website - www.aapcc.org (http://www.aapcc.org) - with information about all types of poisoning.
For the Galveston Area, the Southeast Texas Poison Control Center's (STPCC) website is www.utmb.edu/setpc (http://www.utmb.edu/setpc).
To contact STPCC:

Mailing address: UTMB, 3.112 Trauma Building, Galveston, Tx 77555-1175
Emergency Numbers: (800)764-7661 (TX ONLY) and (409)765-1420
Animal Poison Control Center - www.napcc.aspca.org (http://www.napcc.aspca.org) (888)426-4435
Oleanders contain a toxin called Cardenolide Glycosides. The toxin is mostly contained in the sap which is clear to slightly milky colored, and sticky. When ingested in certain quatities, this toxin can cause harm - and possibly death. The extremely bitter and nauseating taste of the sap (much like a rotten lemon) causes a mechanical reflex in the stomach which rejects and expels the vile substance. Although not impossible, a person or animal would have to have a strong stomach or no sense of taste for a dose of the toxin to be fatal.

What can I do to avoid the a possible poisoning when working with Oleanders? Wash hands (and arms) thoroughly when finished working with the plant.

Do not chew on any part of the plant. And do NOT use it as a skewer for food (or as a toothpick!).

Are the fumes from burning Oleanders hazardous? Yes! The fumes from a burning Oleander is still very hazardous. Steer clear of the fumes and NEVER use the branches as firewood!

What do I do if I accidently ingest some of the sap? Call the poison control center nearest you.
What do I do if I see my pet chewing on the plant?Call your veterinarian immediately!
What do I do if I see my pet chewing on the plant? Call your veterinarian immediately!

What are some other poisonouse plants? Azaleas - Roman soldiers were poisoned from honey of azalea pontica.
Rhododendrons - The poisonous compound is Actylandromdal found in the nectar, and produces depression of blood pressure, shock, and finally death

johnnyrsa

24th July 2014, 04:48 PM

Tambootie is another one to ad to the list:

The sap from a standing Tambootie tree is highly irritating to the skin. The wood and sawdust has also been reported to cause eye and skin irritation. In extreme cases, there have been reports of blindness resulting from occupational exposure to Tambootie’s sawdust. The smoke generated from burning the wood is also toxic, and has been known to contaminate meats cooked over such firewood, resulting in diarrhea.

And Panga-Panga(African Wenge):

Although severe reactions are quite uncommon, breathing Wenge (http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-identification/hardwoods/wenge/)wood dust (closely related to Panga Panga) has been reported to cause central nervous system effects, irritation of the skin and eyes, and is a sensitizer (http://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/wood-allergies-and-toxicity/#sensitizer). Also, Wenge splinters tend to take longer to heal and are more likely to go septic (get infected) than splinters from other woods.

Cliff Rogers

24th July 2014, 11:16 PM

wheelinround

25th July 2014, 09:36 AM

Ever tried putting it in your mouth?
You won't accidentally ingest it that is for sure.

Not as such but accidentally as a kid between ages of 6 & 9 when I used to do gardening for neighbours and trimming the crap back you'd get sap on your hands yep smell is enough to let you know when its green. We had Sue's mum garden which had 3 or 4 plants which we took them out when our kids were born. Then when we moved to Tamworth we removed two in the front yard.

When its dry until recently I have never known what it was like or if it was still a problem. When I was given the blanks a while back I had thought the smell familiar still very wet. After a few weeks it dawned on me what the smell was and the large blanks were disposed of then still wet. Its only while clearing out my 55ltr tub of pen blank off cuts I discovered the plastic bag with the remaining bits. :oo:

I do not recall who gave it to me I hope they are ok.

Rod Gilbert

29th July 2014, 07:58 PM

Hi all,
Many of the timbers on Neil's list I have used with little or no effect on me but that means nothing as with any foreign compound on the physical being some are effected badly others by a small degree then again others not at all. A friend of mine had a very serious reaction to Hoop pine a timber that we had both used on many occasions with no ill effects then on one turning job he had a very serious reaction indeed his eyes just about closed because of the swelling in his face and a nasty rash on both forearm's and hands never seen such a reaction before or since but it happened,so beware of all timber product's and use the best protection you can all the time.
Regards Rod.

DaveTTC

29th July 2014, 08:39 PM

Love the link Neil ... had to go to web view as it does not show on tapatalk.

You mentioned about going to mobile view in the browser but that option does not seem to be there for an iPad

Dave the turning cowboy

turning wood into art

Mobyturns

29th July 2014, 11:08 PM

malb

30th July 2014, 01:46 AM

Hi all,
A friend of mine had a very serious reaction to Hoop pine a timber that we had both used on many occasions with no ill effects then on one turning job he had a very serious reaction indeed his eyes just about closed because of the swelling in his face and a nasty rash on both forearm's and hands never seen such a reaction before or since but it happened,so beware of all timber product's and use the best protection you can all the time.
Regards Rod.

Sometimes it depends on individual's particular sensitivities or allergies, sometimes it can be a cumulative effort of regular exposure, sometimes it is a plant with a good self defence mechanism that effects everything that attacks it.

Father was a builder in Gippsland for many years. His preferred joiner for windows etc was completely allergic to Western Red Cedar and would not allow it in his workshop. He exhibited virtually every symptom listed for Red Cedar in UBeaut's chart. Neither his sons or his staff had issues with it, including people who had worked with it for many years elsewhere. He had worked with it a fair bit in his earlier years but developed complete intolerance to it due to accumulated exposure, similar to what some people experience with epoxies etc.

BT11

7th August 2014, 07:34 PM

Mackay Cedar tops my list.

RecycledTimber

26th August 2014, 03:34 PM

Hey Neil and all,

I am new on this forum and this is my first post. The post seems to be very informative. I would thank all of you for sharing such a good piece of information.

Grahamt

4th September 2014, 05:09 PM

Since no one else seems to want to kick off this forum I thought I'd jump in with an oldie but a really goodie.

Below is link to some timber health hazards that I have had on my U-Beaut site since 1997 it is by no means comprehensive and if anyone feels they have something to contribute please feel free to do so in this thread and I will add the info when I get the time.

Timber Health Hazards (http://www.ubeaut.com.au/badwood.htm)

Cheers - Neil :U

Thanks for that post I was wondering where to find this info.

Thanks again

robgran

24th September 2014, 07:26 PM

The list shows only dermatitis as a possible problem with Spotted Gum. I would like to add a caution for nasal/sinus irritation, and possibly persistent coughing. After spending 65 + hours making a piece of furniture from this timber, mainly wearing a respirator, I had these symptoms for weeks.:o I would certainly take more precautions in future.

fletty

8th October 2014, 11:12 PM

Just to put in my 2 bobs worth....
I have chronic severe asthma which is usually under control and has little effect on much of my life but rosewood brings on an almost instantaneous attack and, unfortunately, I am now also having a reaction to Australian red cedar. The reaction is mostly rash on exposed skin (neck and wrists) and puffy eyes. Both of these reactions are specifically to fine dust from both of these timbers. General handling and shavings seem to have no adverse effect at all?
fletty

clear out

13th October 2014, 12:19 AM

I wonder if teak will swell anything else in that neck of the woods:B ?

Funny comment but when we restored the Ena in the 80s one of the blokes got 'Teak dick'
He didn't find it amusing at all.
Western Red Cedar also took the nose off a TAFE teacher in the ACT.
Blackbean stopped all woodworking for a mate who did some work in it for the Parliament House in 88. Very severer chest problems.
Another mate who'd turned the stuff all his life became allergic to Blackwood and couldn't walk into his shed else his tongue would swell up and he couldn't breathe.
I had myself given a full allergy test after serving an apprenticeship and working as a patternmaker before undertaking a furniture design/making course in the 80s.
MDF would have to be the current bogy if the urea degassing doesn't get you the fine dust must affect your lungs just as the paper dust killed the old Linotype printers.
Oleander killed migrants way back when they used it to skewer their snags for the BBQ.
I bought a Racal back in the 80s having a beard and so far so good.
H.

Bendigo Bob

24th November 2014, 06:23 PM

Yes, just watched a series on YouTube by Steve Hay (Woodworking Master class). he mentioned he is now allergic to Red Cedar, Sad when that happens. I sometimes wonder what it is that gives me a terrible itch and I'm only just getting back into it ??

centron-sg1

25th November 2014, 10:36 AM

Great thread and thanks heaps for the UBeaut list. Saved me a trip to the Doc....

I note Australian Miva Mahogany has listed symptoms including Congestion of lungs, eye inflammation, irritation of mucous membranes, headache, nose bleed, loss of appetite.

I will add severe stomach pains and diarrhoea to the list as I experienced on Sunday night/Monday morning after a weekend making a small jewelry box from this stuff.
I thought I had a really bad virus (manflu according to my wife) until my nose started bleeding.... This stuff is just plain dangerous and I would hazard that if substantial amounts of dust were inhaled by a small child, things could get serious.... I'm plan to upgrade my dust protection this week...

Any dust mask suggestions for the hobbyist ?

BobL

25th November 2014, 11:06 AM

Any dust mask suggestions for the hobbyist ?

I would not recommend any masks alone for dealing with wood dust allergies.

Once an allergy is triggered even moderate skin contact may cause a reaction so the dust must be extracted from the area where and while it is being made. This means using a dust extractor that is located or vents outside the shed. Few people realise that it's less the visible saw dust and more the fine invisible dust that causes the problems. Using a mask does not removed the dust from the air which means the shed air become saturated with fine dust. Working/moving around in such an environment means that your body sucks the fine dust into the gaps between clothing and your body where it sticks and builds up in moist areas thereby increasing exposure to allergens which may be absorbed by the skin.

Once one wood dust allergy is triggered the likelihood of reactions to other species also increases, so for anyone with one allergy a decent dust extraction is a wise investment if they wish to keep woodworking.

Once your DC is setup, then using a mask as well is good insurance.
Using a mask alone is like using a bandaid on a broken leg.

centron-sg1

25th November 2014, 11:11 AM

I would not recommend any masks alone for dealing with wood dust allergies.

Once an allergy is triggered even moderate skin contact may cause a reaction so the dust must be extracted from the area where and while it is being made. This means using a dust extractor that is located or vents outside the shed. Few people realise that it's less the visible saw dust and more the fine invisible dust that causes the problems. Using a mask does not removed the dust from the air which means the shed air become saturated with fine dust. Working/moving around in such an environment means that your body sucks the fine dust into the gaps between clothing and your body where it sticks and builds up in moist areas thereby increasing exposure to allergens which may be absorbed by the skin.

Once one wood dust allergy is triggered the likelihood of reactions to other species also increases, so for anyone with one allergy a decent dust extraction is a wise investment if they wish to keep woodworking.

Once your DC is setup, then using a mask as well is good insurance.
Using a mask alone is like using a bandaid on a broken leg.

I have a DC with a 1micron filter but I guess I was still inhaling the stuff... Will look into a ceiling mounted air/dust system and a good mask... Thanks for the advice....

BobL

25th November 2014, 11:50 AM

I have a DC with a 1micron filter but I guess I was still inhaling the stuff... Will look into a ceiling mounted air/dust system and a good mask... Thanks for the advice....

Good to hear you have a DC.

In case you are unaware;
If your DC uses 100mm ducting then no matter how powerful the DC is, this size ducting is too small to allow sufficient air flow to grab the dust at source.
The minimum diameter ducting that should be used is 150 mm and this requires at least a 3HP unit to use over some distance of ducting.

The 1 micron filter rating means very little without the efficiency rating at that micron size. Most so called "1 micron" rated filters are 70% efficient at 1 micron. This means 30% of the fine dust at 1 micron passes straight through the filter and out into the shed. for sizes smaller than 1 micron the percentage passing through will be much greater.

The main problem with all DCs and VCs is not usually the filter but that they all leak, some quite badly, and this cannot always be detected without expensive test gear and testing on a regular basis and who wants to be doing this instead of woodworking? If you can't locate the DC outside then an alternative is putting the DC inside an enclosure and venting that outside the shed.

Room air filters are a bit like masks, something to use after the DC system is fully optimised. Most wood working machines like sanders and routers will fill a shed with fine dust far faster than it can be removed by a room air filter. It's much better to grab the dust at source before it spreads that trying to round the dust up after it has reached every nook and cranny in the shed. It's more efficient $ wise to build an effective DC system than trying to patch things with a room air filter.

Room air filters are very useful to use in areas in which finishing is applied since they remove not just wood but all other dust as well.

centron-sg1

25th November 2014, 12:30 PM

I'm gonna need a bigger garage/shed... :U.

I have one of these:
http://i1333.photobucket.com/albums/w630/centron-sg1/IMG_0771_zpsd19a9c81.jpg

and it works pretty well for the price and space it takes up.

And have stashed it in the far left corner by removing a cupboard like so and have recently upgraded my saw for better dust collection/safety.
http://i1333.photobucket.com/albums/w630/centron-sg1/IMG_0391_zps0af65779.jpg

I have also upgraded the dust ports on my bobbin and disk sanders, however, I'm not sure I have the space for a fully ducted 3hp system in my one car garage... Still need to put a car in to it each night. sigh..... But I will invest in a decent dust mask as a start and also get the cyclone system up and running....

Sanding is the killer... my power sander had a tiny little hose attachment and hand sanding (which I do a lot of) is still an issue. I might see if I can drill some holes in the work bench, seal them in by building a lower cavity with a DC attachment to serve as down draft dust extraction table and bench dog holes at the same time....

Thankfully, I don't have any more of the Miva Mahogany and I have never had a reaction to any other woods in my (albeit limited) woodworking lifetime..... but my recent experience has highlighted a real issue in my small shop....

Thanks for the advice and guidance....

Good to hear you have a DC.

In case you are unaware;
If your DC uses 100mm ducting then no matter how powerful the DC is, this size ducting is too small to allow sufficient air flow to grab the dust at source.
The minimum diameter ducting that should be used is 150 mm and this requires at least a 3HP unit to use over some distance of ducting.

The 1 micron filter rating means very little without the efficiency rating at that micron size. Most so called "1 micron" rated filters are 70% efficient at 1 micron. This means 30% of the fine dust at 1 micron passes straight through the filter and out into the shed. for sizes smaller than 1 micron the percentage passing through will be much greater.

The main problem with all DCs and VCs is not usually the filter but that they all leak, some quite badly, and this cannot always be detected without expensive test gear and testing on a regular basis and who wants to be doing this instead of woodworking? If you can't locate the DC outside then an alternative is putting the DC inside an enclosure and venting that outside the shed.

Room air filters are a bit like masks, something to use after the DC system is fully optimised. Most wood working machines like sanders and routers will fill a shed with fine dust far faster than it can be removed by a room air filter. It's much better to grab the dust at source before it spreads that trying to round the dust up after it has reached every nook and cranny in the shed. It's more efficient $ wise to build an effective DC system than trying to patch things with a room air filter.

Room air filters are very useful to use in areas in which finishing is applied since they remove not just wood but all other dust as well.

BobL

25th November 2014, 09:30 PM

Thanks for posting the pics and explaining the situation.

I have also upgraded the dust ports on my bobbin and disk sanders, however, I'm not sure I have the space for a fully ducted 3hp system in my one car garage... Still need to put a car in to it each night. sigh..... But I will invest in a decent dust mask as a start and also get the cyclone system up and running....
What sort of cyclone is it and what is it going to be connected to?

Sanding is the killer...
Yep its the Achilles heel of all woodworking setups.

my power sander had a tiny little hose attachment and hand sanding (which I do a lot of) is still an issue
What is the tiny hose attached to?

. I might see if I can drill some holes in the work bench, seal them in by building a lower cavity with a DC attachment to serve as down draft dust extraction table and bench dog holes at the same time.....

Even just running a naked DC duct in the vicinity of where you are sanding is better than nothing

dai sensei

25th November 2014, 10:18 PM

This sub-forum is for bad woods. Please keep dust control posts to the appropriate sub-forum

centron-sg1

25th November 2014, 11:26 PM

This sub-forum is for bad woods. Please keep dust control posts to the appropriate sub-forum

Fair enough....

I am curious if anyone has any experience in the matter as to why some woods (like miva mahogany) are bad while (for me anyway) most I have no problem with?
Is it in the chemical make up of the wood or something to do with the soil in the regions in which they grow in or a natural defense against being turned (no pun intended) into something other than firewood (like food for something).

Cliff Rogers

26th November 2014, 11:08 AM

Similar reason to why some people are allergic to seafood or citrus or eggs or flour or cats etc.

Just lucky I guess.

I do know that exposure to a particular substance usually triggers the allergic reaction so the next time the effected person comes in contact with it, they experience the reaction.

I also know that it is sometimes possible to 'desensitize' somebody by giving them minute doses of the allergen over a period of time but it doesn't work for everybody.

The main thing about this list is to know that it is possible to get a reaction to the timber on it anywhere from mild to wild so you should take precautions when you work with it.

BobL's message (worth listening to) is that you should avoid breathing all dust, full stop.

BobL

26th November 2014, 01:13 PM

This sub-forum is for bad woods. Please keep dust control posts to the appropriate sub-forum

I was wondering how long we'd get away with it. :D

It's interesting what Cliff was saying about sensitisation and desensitisation.

I don't use a lot of MDF (mainly for jigs etc) since I suffered a reaction to it back in 2002 while making the insides of a desk. What was surprising was that most of this was done whilst working outside. I was using a basic mask but not all the time. The problem with something like MDF is that the chemicals in MFD can pass straight through most masks.

The reaction itself started out with sinus irritation (runny nose) which grew to flu like symptoms (blocked and swollen sinuses, sore throat, aches and pains, but no fever) that lasted for about a week and after that I couldn't smell anything for about 6 weeks. The loss of the sense of smell severely affected the sense of taste with beer tasting especially bad. Fruit tasted like veges and VV all very confusing.

After that for many years I only needed a faint whiff of MDF dust to start feeling a reaction (sinus irritation) to it so I stayed away from using it.

Since installing a half decent DC system on 2011 I've found I can easily use it without a reaction.

Recently I decided to take a deliberate whiff and found it did not affect me.
I've no doubt that my system does not get rid of all the dust so my guess is I was being exposed at a low level and have become desensitised?

TermiMonster

26th November 2014, 07:15 PM

MDF is the only timber(?) I have ever had a bad reaction to....(fingers crossed)
I think there's a bit more than timber in mdf....
TM

rob streeper

27th November 2014, 01:07 AM

I used to have a strong reaction to Western red cedar and was developing sensitivity to cocobolo and Indian rosewood. I found that avoiding alcohol, particularly beer, the day before and for a day or two after exposure to dust from these types of wood greatly improved my symptoms. It's been three years since beginning this practice and now I have little to no reaction to them.

Cliff Rogers

27th November 2014, 10:16 AM

That is interesting, I have also noticed something similar with allergies.
I don't have a noticeable reaction to citrus but it makes my skin more sensitive to stuff I do have reactions to.

rob streeper

27th November 2014, 10:24 AM

That is interesting, I have also noticed something similar with allergies.
I don't have a noticeable reaction to citrus but it makes my skin more sensitive to stuff I do have reactions to.

It's called immunological priming and it works like vaccination. Most vaccines are composed of the antigen of interest plus an adjuvant that provokes the immune response. The antigen is the target but the immune system must be revved up if you will by the adjuvant to provoke a strong antigen directed immune response.
Alcohol and other things, for some just stress will do, set you up for having an allergic response to an antigen like wood dust that under normal circumstances you would not have a reaction to. The reactive glues such as CA and epoxies can induce a similar response both to the glue components and other allergens that you might be exposed to at around the same time.

artful bodger

27th November 2014, 08:42 PM

I don't use a lot of MDF (mainly for jigs etc) since I suffered a reaction to it back in 2002 while making the insides of a desk. What was surprising was that most of this was done whilst working outside. I was using a basic mask but not all the time. The problem with something like MDF is that the chemicals in MFD can pass straight through most masks.

The reaction itself started out with sinus irritation (runny nose) which grew to flu like symptoms (blocked and swollen sinuses, sore throat, aches and pains, but no fever) that lasted for about a week and after that I couldn't smell anything for about 6 weeks. The loss of the sense of smell severely affected the sense of taste with beer tasting especially bad. Fruit tasted like veges and VV all very confusing.

After that for many years I only needed a faint whiff of MDF dust to start feeling a reaction (sinus irritation) to it so I stayed away from using it.

Yep!, MDF is the "PITS" for me too. Only stuff I've ever used that makes me cough up blood. A foundry I once worked in used it for their patterns. No dust extraction, no rules, when the blood coughing started I quit.
Preposterously I still use the stuff from time to time, but with a good mask and extraction system. Would not use it in my Webber BBQ though.

Theberylbloke

13th December 2014, 05:25 PM

I note Australian Miva Mahogany has listed symptoms including Congestion of lungs, eye inflammation, irritation of mucous membranes, headache, nose bleed, loss of appetite.

As much as I like this timber, it is pretty nasty to work. I sanded a slab outdoors, with no DC and had a slight nose bleed as a result. I still have some slabs of it, although I won't work it until my DC is good enough.

I have been told that some timbers are worse to work than others because of the shape of the dust particles that come off it. I am doubtful if this is true, perhaps someone with more knowledge can answer this? I would have thought it was the chemicals that are part of the each particular species?

Cheers

The Beryl Bloke

BobL

13th December 2014, 09:13 PM

.
.
.
I have been told that some timbers are worse to work than others because of the shape of the dust particles that come off it. I am doubtful if this is true, perhaps someone with more knowledge can answer this? I would have thought it was the chemicals that are part of the each particular species?

In my reading on wood dust haven't run across particle shape as a factor. In the US Annual Report on Cancer, shape is not listed as a factor. The main factor seems to be be particle size which determines how far the particle penetrate into the respiratory system and the surface area which determines the amount of chemicals that can be leached from the dust. Shape will also affect surface ares but I have not seen anything on this. What seems to determine size (and probably shape) is the nature of the wood, and type of wood working activity. e.g. provided the machinery/tools are operating correctly, fine sanding of dry wood makes more smaller dust than chopping green wood.

wood spirit

1st February 2015, 08:02 PM

Have heard that Black-wood is one of the problem timbers-mostly about it's structure. If you gather some black-wood dust from sanding- you will notice that it clings to itself in an abnormal manor. Apparently if you look at the fibers microscopically they are barbed and readily hook into your lungs much like asbestos ( which is actually chemically inert as far as biology is concerned, but the effects-well not good.)

mark david

1st February 2015, 11:35 PM

When I started out in furniture making (late 1980's) Used mdf quite a lot, don't remember using masks much and had no dust extraction it used to give me sore throat for a couple of days.
Still use it occasionally but am much more careful.

I developed lymphoma cancer in the 1990's which was undiagnosed for almost a decade.Whether it was related to the mdf use I don't know but could have been.

Yep!, MDF is the "PITS" for me too. Only stuff I've ever used that makes me cough up blood. A foundry I once worked in used it for their patterns. No dust extraction, no rules, when the blood coughing started I quit.
Preposterously I still use the stuff from time to time, but with a good mask and extraction system. Would not use it in my Webber BBQ though.

Xanthorrhoeas

8th February 2015, 06:49 PM

rabbitoh

30th March 2015, 06:35 PM

i was told boonaree sawdust is extremely carcinogenic-does anyone have any info on that?

Euge

7th April 2015, 02:40 PM

I can't see that anyone has posted this so here goes: A useful reference book in regard to this subject is by Morris Lake "Australian trees and shrubs - common and scientific names and toxic properties" Second edition 2006 published by the International Wood Collectors Society. Can be difficult to obtain but is a useful reference book. I do not know how much it overlaps with UBeaut's list.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=339393&stc=1http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=339392&stc=1
Hi Xanthorrhoeas & interested members:

Together with other co-authors (Jon Arno, Roy Tandy and Jim Flynn) I produced this list of toxic woods originally for th benefit of IWCS members, who are mostly woodworkers. Similar compilations of species were made in various publications, World of Wood (journal) and a book (A Guide to Useful Woods of the World) and later for an Australian Wood Magazine (Australian Wood Review). Most recently it was reviewed for this recent IWCS Publication (shown above), edited and compiled by Morris Lake.

The list of problematic woods includes many Australian and imported species most commonly used by woodworkers worldwide. It provides useful advice about what to do when handling woods (not just just dust inhalation) and cautions working with old and fungal infected woods as well.

This publication may still be available through Morris and the IWCS.

Eugene D

Dengue

3rd November 2015, 02:33 PM

Neil, what about Western Red Cedar and the Plicatic Acid in the sawdust? Have a look here (http://nestboxbuilder.com/nestbox-article-cedar.html) and here (http://www.ratfanclub.org/pine&cdr.html)

(http://www.ratfanclub.org/pine&cdr.html)

BobL

3rd November 2015, 03:26 PM

While the book is useful it is important to realise that ALL wood dust between ~10 and 0.1 microns is considered carcinogenic. The size of the dust appears to be more significant than the species as the various authorities who arrived at this conclusion some years ago do not distinguish between any species in terms of toxicity they just discuss the size of the wood dust.

renateochse

16th February 2017, 07:48 AM

Xanthorrhoeas

16th February 2017, 11:09 AM

Hi Eugene,

Have (two years later! just seen this) please accept my apologies for the misattribution. I should have said it was edited by Morris Lake, not authored by him.

David

Xanthorrhoeas

16th February 2017, 11:34 AM

Hi Rob
... we took down a eucalyptus tree in New Zealand end of Sept 2106. There was a heap of saw dust lying around from the sawing which I distributed ... in quite windy conditions. Since then I have struggled with hives, itches skin rashes that are not just contact dermatitis but spring up anywhere they choose. Have had a dry cough for weeks now which before was more just a feeling like I had swallowed dust. Nothing seems to help - went on prednisone - off that now and onto a detox regime....any ideas??

Hi and sorry to hear about your condition. I am a retired botanist, not a medico (PhD not Bachelor of medicine and Bachelor of surgery). Do you know what species of eucalypt it was? One of the commonest exported eucalypts was Tasmanian Blue Gum. A quick look at the book (incorrectly) referenced by me above shows that numerous different eucalypt species are capable of causing the type of conditions you are suffering from and that E. globulus is recorded as causing dermatitis while other species are recorded as causing irritation of the nose and throat, eczema, asthma and sneezing etc.

I am not sure if that information helps you but it may help your medicos get in touch with someone who has some more specific medical advice how to alleviate your conditions.

One other possibility is that, if the tree was dead or the sawdust allowed to lie on the ground for any time it could have been invaded by fungus. Fungal spores are notoriously nasty when inhaled. That could mean it was not the timber itself that has caused your problems.

Personally I doubt the "detox" stuff ( I have never seen scientific proof for it) but I guess anything is worth a try when desperate. You need medical advice not a botanist's advice but my suggestion is that may be better to continue treating the symptoms medically until your body heals itself. Unfortunately, some people never overcome an allergic reaction to timber dust (if it is that and not fungal spores) but, if they absolutely avoid future contact their symptoms eventually improve.

Good luck and best wishes for a recovery. I and other forums members will be keen to hear if you improve.

David

fletty

16th February 2017, 11:37 AM

Hi Rob
I know this is an old post- we took down a eucalyptus tree in New Zealand end of Sept 2106. it was cut up in our yard and large logs removed. We pulched the remainder for the garden. There was a heap of saw dust lying around from the sawing which I distributed onto the flour beds in quite windy conditions. Since then I have struggled with hives, itches skin rashes that are not just contact dermatitis but spring up anywhere they choose. Have had a dry cough for weeks now which before was more just a feeling like I had swallowed dust. Nothing seems to help - went on prednisone - off that now and onto a detox regime....any ideas??

I have a similar reaction to this but only to selected species and particularly to NSW scented rosewood. FOR ME, exposure to scented rosewood fires up my underlying asthma and causes a rash anywhere my clothes may rub against me such as collars and sleeve entries. I also find that the clothes that I am wearing need to be washed or another attack will occur just from putting the same clothes back on! However, I don't have an adverse reaction to common eucalypts? Do you have a picture of the tree to help identify the species?
fletty

Mace and Olga

5th March 2017, 10:46 AM

dai sensei

5th March 2017, 11:26 AM

Hi all, I live up in the NT and have some iron wood. I have heard it has some toxic properties as its used as traditional medicine and the leaves are toxic to animals. It's extremely hard, heavy and durable and it would look fantastic as a chopping board.
Would anyone have advice if this could be used as a chopping board? I can't find any info on it?
Many thanks for your advice!

It would be fine for a chopping board. The outside of the tree is nasty and you need to be careful making the chopping board, many people have allergic reactions to it, but once dry and finished the heartwood is fine. It is the same species as Cooktown Ironwood

Xanthorrhoeas

5th March 2017, 03:05 PM

The usual timber references do not give any information about toxicity for this timber but John Brock in 1988 claimed that all parts of the tree are highly poisonous to mammals Ref.: Brock, J. (1988). Top End Native Plants. (John Brock: Darwin). Many species in this pea family are renowned for their toxic affect on people (e.g. Yellow Sirus, Red Sirus, Blackbean)

Most evidence of stock poisoning is from ingesting the leaves, so it may be ok as dai sensei says in post #48 above. However, human reactions to timber can be very different person-to-person so, knowing that the plant contains some very toxic chemicals and that they must be present in some concentration in the timber I would advise against using the timber for any food-contact items. You might get away with it, but how would you feel if someone was sensitive and had a reaction. Ingesting ironwood leaves can kill a buffalo ... the toxicity level is high.

David

John.G

6th March 2017, 01:45 PM

I hear a lot about people using Ironwood for this and that and shake my head. Its a nice timber. And it will kill you.
I've got war spears from the cape. Typical spear, with a splinter of ironwood on the end thats held there with beeswax and twine. If the spear gets ya, the splinter will detach and a splinters all it takes.
Mate of mine got an ironwood splinter in his foot walking around in an old dam (stood on top of a snapped off fencepost. Three days later we airlifted him out to Kathrine hospital, dammed near killed him.
Usual stories about cows eating leaves etc etc are all true, and the one about not cooking with it because it'll taint your steak is true too.
I had a pup chewed a doorstop I had. The operative word being had.

Google sodium fluroacetate - thats the active compound found in Ironwood. Might as well lick a 1080 bait as make a breadboard from ironwood ifn you ask me. Y'ever heard a baited dog howling? Dont sound like a nice way to go to me. Course thats just me, and people make stuff from it all the time.

Me, I got ironwood in furniture. I dont put my food on the furniture. And I'll allow that any form of surface coating means the timber isnt in food contact anyway. But still we got some ugly nurses in these hospitals. I dun wanna go there...

BobL

6th March 2017, 04:34 PM

Interestingly the OHS air exposure limit for PURE Sodium fluoroacetate is 0.05 mg/m^3 - but hang on that's only 20X more than plain old hardwood sawdust (1 mg/m^2) and 10 times more than MDF.

BTW The hardwood OHS limit is based on English oak!

So what does this say about the toxicity of sodium fluoroacetate or the toxicity of plain old hardwood sawdust.

I don't doubt the toxicity of the Sodium fluoroacetate but what is does indicate is we need to treating all sawdust way more seriously.

And what would be the toxicity level for Cooktown ironwood sawdust?

See that's the thing is no one has really done a proper investigation into Australian species toxicity.

Xanthorrhoeas

6th March 2017, 05:20 PM

Yes, BobL, I agree. For instance an internet search for toxicity for Cooktown Ironwood produced nothing for me, and the IWCS 2006 report has zilch too. My post above was based upon caution being better than disaster. JohnG obviously has some much better source of information, and thank goodness he does and has shared it, as it may help avoid a disaster.

As a scientist one of the thought processes when considering a question/unknown is always to go back to first principles. As woodworkers we enjoy working with wood, love wood. But, consider what wood is - first principles. It is the old, no longer living parts of the plant where the plant stores its chemical waste products. The tree depends upon this old tissue for support to keep its leaves where they can be in the sunlight, so there is a biological/genetic advantage to having the wood intact/uneaten/strong. In general terms (of course there are exceptions, mostly those plants bred by humans for consumption) plants are in a never ending war with the animals and fungi that eat/attack/rot them. It is a biochemical war where, over evolutionary time, the plants develop ever more sophisticated poisons to protect themselves. Some of those poisons are stored in the wood to protect it. So ... wood is intrinsically dangerous because it contains dangerous chemicals, and wood dust contains those chemicals as well as being a physical size that can damage our lungs and respiratory tissues.

As woodworkers we can love love wood, but we should understand it and treat it with the respect it deserves.

Pure science in Australia is just about dead. Short-sighted economic-rationalist governments and politicians do not understand that you need a lot of pure research to fuel the applied research that creates economic wealth and employment. Once CSIRO was a world leader in research now they have a highly paid chief exec, a big bureaucracy and very little research. They still cost a lot to run. Universities employ primarily on contract so the employees don't get paid in the holidays - not much chance of pure research from them if they are starving.

David

BobL

6th March 2017, 05:50 PM

Good post David.

Everything is toxic its just the dose that varies.

This has been posted before but even good old eucalyptus oil is toxic.
As little as 3.5g (~100 drops) administered orally has lead to fatalities in children yet it continues to be used in all manner of products including medicines.
Dry eucalyptus leaves contain as much as 10% oil and about half that is what is specifically known as "eucalyptus oil" so 70g of dry leaf contains enough for a lethal dose.

BTW the CSIRO book on Forrest trees of Australia lists ALL parts of the Cooktown Ironwood Tree as HIGHLY poisonous in the first paragraph of its 2 page entry.
I would be really interested to know the concentration of sodium fluoroacetate in the wood.

Xanthorrhoeas

6th March 2017, 06:52 PM

Thanks Bob, That is another reference book I didn't have. I must have been asleep when the CSIRO list came out in 2006! It is now winging its way to me from CSIRO.
David

BobL

6th March 2017, 07:39 PM

Thanks Bob, That is another reference book I didn't have. I must have been asleep when the CSIRO list came out in 2006! It is now winging its way to me from CSIRO.
David

It's an excellent book, even just to sit and read.

dai sensei

6th March 2017, 10:14 PM

Each up to their own, but personally I think the poisonous features of the actual timber has been exaggerated due to ignorance. Certainly the leaves, sap and bark are an issue, but the heartwood would have SFA poison and it has been used on boards for years because it lasts so long. The aboriginals have used various parts of the tree for medicine and indeed I believe someone is looking into it as a cure to cancer. It is also a favourite tree for native honey bees in the NT. As for spears, it wasn't the splinters you had t worry about, it was the hard sharp pointy bit.

The sawdust would be a problem, but so is the sawdust from all trees. Splinters are also a real problem but not necessarily due to any poison in the wood. My understanding is that it is due to them not dissolving or causing infection like normal splinters, so they can travel through the bloodstream, then getting caught.

I guess I see it similar to camphor laurel, considered a poisonous tree which it is, but you'd need to eat a tree of timber before you even get sick. In some countries they drink a small glass full of camphor oil every day, and also, it does make the best cutting boards because of the antibacterial properties.

Yeh I know, CL is different, I'm just saying lack of knowledge is always an issue. Yes a study would be good, but again look at CL, there have been many a study and there are still many people on both sides of the fence.

John.G

6th March 2017, 11:11 PM

There's a lot of poisonous plant compounds out there, and a lot of poisons What makes sodium floroacetate stand out is that it isn't like an insecticidal poison where exposure might be an irritant to everything else. Rather it is a mammalian poison, and a very effective one.

So let's look at this from another viewpoint. Chromium in trace amounts is required as part of a human diet. Copper in trace amounts is necessary also. Arsenic in trace amounts is actually a mammalian growth stimulant. Put them on timber as an insecticidal treatment in the form of CCA and it's a good bug deterrent that's quite human friendly.
And empiracly, you'd be safer using unsealed CCA treated timber for food prep then cooktown ironwood. There's no part of sodium floroacetate that's good for mammals.

100 grams of leaf will kill a cow or camel that weighs 3/4 a ton .
2 leaves will kill a sheep.
If a dog licks a tyre that's driven over a 1080 bait it's pretty much dead dog.
A splinter in a horse is enough to cause Ironwood poisoning. If not removed promptly: dead horse.

im not saying Cooktown Ironwood shouldn't be used. It's a good timber.

But I would suggest it be handled with great care with regard dust exposure, food contact, and splinters because its proven lethal to humans and there isn't any cure.

BobL

6th March 2017, 11:58 PM

OK I have some back of the envelop numbers we can look at.

Lethal dose for FCH2CO2Na is between 2 and 10 mg/kg of body weight. Lets use the lowest dose i.e. 2mg/kg

Lets deal with a 20 kg child, this means 40 mg of FCH2CO2Na is needed. This is just over one drop of the stuff so not much.

Finding the concentration of FCH2CO2Na in plants proved rather tricky but I eventually found some data here http://www.ecotox.org.au/aje/archives/vol3p57.pdf

Seeds seem to have the greatest concentrations of FCH2CO2Na, followed by fresh leaves.
There is no information for wood but it should be significantly less than both of these.
I cannot find the concentration of FCH2CO2Na in Cooktown ironwood but the greatest naturally occurring concentration ever measure in a plant is 8g/kg in a south African plants seeds.

For Australian plants the typical concentration is 2.6 g/kg in leaves.

So to get 40 mg of FCH2CO2Na you will need 0.04/2.6 kg = 15 g of leaves.

Wood should have lower concentrations than leaves but lets assume they are the same.

One toothpick = 0.14g so a child would have to eat 15/.14 = 107 toothpicks of wood to die.
A 100 kg person would have to eat 535 tooth picks.

So I can understand getting sick but unless they are allergic to it I cannot understand death in a human from eating the wood.

The 50% lethal dose for carnivores like dogs is 30x lower than for humans so 50% of 20kg dogs who ate 4 toothpicks of ironwood would die. A 5kg pup would only need to eat 1 tooth pick worth.

FCH2CO2Na also is present in tea leaves in relatively high concentrations but there's something about tea that holds the FCH2CO2Na in the leaf and does not extract much and you would have to drink 875 cups of tea to reach a lethal dose.

At 250 ml of water per cup you would die from consuming too much water before you reached the FCH2CO2Na limit and the caffeine dose would also be serious.