my new toy. Colchester Chipmaster [Archive]

thorens

24th July 2014, 01:11 PM

HEY THATS A BEAUTY . Mine looks like a worn out wreck in comparison . We can compare notes . Is the variable speede device in yours OK

Mike

PS be very careful when moving it , these lathes tip over at the drop of a hat , as I found out the hard way .

Hi Mike.
Thanks. no i haven't fire it up yet . the guy i brought it from don't have 3 phase either but he said it was working when his brother give it to him.
i thinking of connect the motor to 220v 3 phase the use VDF ,
how did you run your ?
Peter

morrisman

24th July 2014, 03:30 PM

Hi Peter

There is a MEW magazine article by a chap who VFD his chipmaster .

Also the yahoo Colchester group has some info in their files section . Mike

PDW

24th July 2014, 04:28 PM

Hi Mike. Thanks. no i haven't fire it up yet . the guy i brought it from don't have 3 phase either but he said it was working when his brother give it to him. i thinking of connect the motor to 220v 3 phase the use VDF , how did you run your ? Peter Congratulations, they're nice machines. There are only maybe 3 or 4 lathes in this work envelope I'd trade mine for (and RC has one of them). While I don't like the Kopp variators, if yours works properly, think 3 times before swapping it out. You are *not* going to get the equivalent speed range from a motor with VFD by just varying the motor frequency. Using a VFD to get 3 phase assuming the motor can be set to use 220V is a different matter of course. I'd suggest changing the oil in the variator anyway. Make sure it's the right sort and filled to the correct level. Seems a lot of problems with the variators are due to wrong type or amount of oil. PDW

thorens

24th July 2014, 05:10 PM

Congratulations, they're nice machines. There are only maybe 3 or 4 lathes in this work envelope I'd trade mine for (and RC has one of them). While I don't like the Kopp variators, if yours works properly, think 3 times before swapping it out. You are *not* going to get the equivalent speed range from a motor with VFD by just varying the motor frequency. Using a VFD to get 3 phase assuming the motor can be set to use 220V is a different matter of course. I'd suggest changing the oil in the variator anyway. Make sure it's the right sort and filled to the correct level. Seems a lot of problems with the variators are due to wrong type or amount of oil. PDW

Thanks.
going VFD is purely for 3 phase as I don't have to phase installed so that is the only way i can get this running in the cheap .
i will go over it , clean up and oil all area where it needed before run it .
regards
peter

markgray

24th July 2014, 07:00 PM

Well done. These seem to be excellent lathes. I was only looking at one 30 mins ago. It is sitting on the back of my truck along with a Nuttall lathe, Pal mill and Arbroga drill. Unfortunately it is not mine. I picked the machines up for a friend who inherited them from his uncle. Luckily though he didn't want the Arbroga ER 825 drill and the Power surface grinder ( which I am still to pick up) so you can guess were they are staying!
Will probably have to help set up the Chipmaster when I delivery it so hopefully will get a chance to have a play then.

Mark

simonl

24th July 2014, 07:13 PM

Very nice indeed!

My inlaws have a Colchester bantam in their shed. They are beautiful machines. It never gets used!:((

Simon

morrisman

24th July 2014, 08:46 PM

A interesting review for you Peter.......... and the manual

The wandering axeman: Colchester Chipmaster Review

http://www.scribd.com/doc/132286866/Chipmaster-Manual-1-of-6 (http://wanderingaxeman.blogspot.com.au/2013/09/colchester-chipmaster-review.html)

thorens

24th July 2014, 10:04 PM

A interesting review for you Peter.......... and the manual

The wandering axeman: Colchester Chipmaster Review

(http://wanderingaxeman.blogspot.com.au/2013/09/colchester-chipmaster-review.html)Chipmaster Manual 1 of 6 (http://www.scribd.com/doc/132286866/Chipmaster-Manual-1-of-6)

thanks Mike.
i have seen his site yesterday while look up for some information's.
regards
Peter

thorens

24th July 2014, 11:28 PM

Congratulations, they're nice machines. There are only maybe 3 or 4 lathes in this work envelope I'd trade mine for (and RC has one of them). While I don't like the Kopp variators, if yours works properly, think 3 times before swapping it out. You are *not* going to get the equivalent speed range from a motor with VFD by just varying the motor frequency. Using a VFD to get 3 phase assuming the motor can be set to use 220V is a different matter of course. I'd suggest changing the oil in the variator anyway. Make sure it's the right sort and filled to the correct level. Seems a lot of problems with the variators are due to wrong type or amount of oil. PDW

this might be it for this lathe ?
SAJ 4KW VSD VFD Inverter 415V Variable Speed Drive | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/SAJ-4KW-VSD-VFD-inverter-415V-variable-speed-drive-/180734918672?pt=AU_B_I_Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item2a14a40010)

I don't have to connect the motor to 220v . just stick this on and that is it , am i correct ?
Peter

Stustoys

24th July 2014, 11:51 PM

I don't have to connect the motor to 220v . just stick this on and that is it , am i correct ?

Input voltage: three phase 342-528V 50/60Hz

thorens

25th July 2014, 12:05 AM

Input voltage: three phase 342-528V 50/60Hz

Hi Stuart .
sorry I send the wrong link. he have the 240v~415v on his other auction. it just that at the moment he only have the 1.5kw unit. but i'm sure if i ask him for the 4kw one he should have it as well.
check his other auction
cheers
Peter

Stustoys

25th July 2014, 01:23 AM

Michael G

25th July 2014, 07:42 AM

I'm sure if i ask him for the 4kw one he should have it as well.

Yes, but how are you going to get 4kW out of the VFD if you can only put 2.2kW (10A plug) or 3.3 kW (15A plug) into it - and that is not taking into account losses within the VFD. If the Variator works you are better off putting the biggest single phase motor you can drive. While you can use a 4kW VFD you can't get more out of them than you put in and last time I looked (many years ago) the conversion efficiency was something like 80%, so if you are feeding 3.3kW in, you are likely to only see a bit over 2 1/2kW out.

Michael

PDW

25th July 2014, 10:34 AM

Yes, but how are you going to get 4kW out of the VFD if you can only put 2.2kW (10A plug) or 3.3 kW (15A plug) into it - and that is not taking into account losses within the VFD. If the Variator works you are better off putting the biggest single phase motor you can drive. While you can use a 4kW VFD you can't get more out of them than you put in and last time I looked (many years ago) the conversion efficiency was something like 80%, so if you are feeding 3.3kW in, you are likely to only see a bit over 2 1/2kW out. Michael That 4kW unit would work fine. If you can feed it. As the Chipmaster has a 3HP motor it only needs 2.2kW anyway, so no real dramas there. I'd hook it to a 15A supply and see how it goes. Only time I see problems is very deep cuts on big work pieces that require all the HP the motor can produce, and how often does that happen? Also these lathes have a clutch so it's less strain on things getting a spindle with workpiece moving from a dead stop. I hate using lathes without clutches now both of my main ones have a clutch. Not sure what your wiring access is like but running a 20A circuit is another possibility. Easy to have done and only needs 4mm wire, same as used for a stove. I'd get true 415V 3 phase but this looks like a very viable alternative, as long as that inverte is any good. PDW

Oldneweng

25th July 2014, 11:09 AM

1 5KW VSD VFD Inverter Single Phase 240V TO 3 Phase 415V Variable Speed Drive | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1-5KW-VSD-VFD-inverter-single-phase-240V-3-phase-415V-variable-speed-drive-/171395256673?pt=AU_B_I_Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item27e7f41161)

Well thats more like it.

Way cheaper than Drives Direct by the look of it(though it was a quick look). I had heard of Chinese 240 to 415V VSDs... from Joe maybe? but I'd not seen one for sale before now.

Stuart

By sheer coincidence I happened to look for 415v output VFD's last night and put that one in my watch list. I am thinking if I can get one big enough it would be better for my lathe. The existing one will work well on the shaper, driving the huge 3hp delta connected motor I took off the Nuttall lathe. The shaper had a 1hp motor originally, according to Harty.

Dean

thorens

25th July 2014, 11:44 AM

By sheer coincidence I happened to look for 415v output VFD's last night and put that one in my watch list. I am thinking if I can get one big enough it would be better for my lathe. The existing one will work well on the shaper, driving the huge 3hp delta connected motor I took off the Nuttall lathe. The shaper had a 1hp motor originally, according to Harty.

Dean

Hi Dean.
coincidence indeed :)
may be we should ask the seller for group buy discount :U
i await for his answer about the 2.2kw unit . hope he have them available .

cheers
Peter

morrisman

25th July 2014, 12:05 PM

thorens

25th July 2014, 12:09 PM

I believe these lathes came standard with a 3hp 3 ph motor , a lot of grunt for such a small lathe .

Maybe a 2hp single phase replacement motor would suffice for amateur use . But may be a pain fitting it inside the base as new mounts would be required ?

yeah . i was thinking of replace the motor with a single phase one which is easy to find but fitting it in there is a real pain for sure , hence the VFD option.
Cheers
Peter

Oldneweng

25th July 2014, 12:59 PM

Hi Dean.
coincidence indeed :)
may be we should ask the seller for group buy discount :U
i await for his answer about the 2.2kw unit . hope he have them available .
chrs
Peter

I already have a 4kw unit driving the lathe. I am looking for a bigger one. My search was more a matter of "watch this space". I am interested in how you go with the 2.2kw unit.

I guess that the 220v output VFD's are aimed at the US market. It would be obvious that 440v output would be far more desirable in oz. The ol' economy of scale problem. What percentage of world population has access to 440v 3ph?

Dean

PDW

25th July 2014, 03:15 PM

yeah . i was thinking of replace the motor with a single phase one which is easy to find but fitting it in there is a real pain for sure , hence the VFD option. Cheers Peter I would *not* do this unless I had absolutely no other alternative. The machine was designed and is rigid enough to use all those HP, why would you want to handicap the machine capabilities if you could avoid it? If you do go this route, at least have the foresight to a possible future owner to hang onto the original motor etc. It cost the ex owner of a toolroom mill I bought $1000 for not doing that. He thought the machine was worth more money because it now had a 240V 3 phase motor driven by a single phase input VFD. My opinion was to the contrary and I paid less than he'd originally paid never mind his conversion costs. If he'd at least kept the original (2 speed 415V) motor I would have paid at least his original purchase price. PDW

thorens

25th July 2014, 06:36 PM

I would *not* do this unless I had absolutely no other alternative. The machine was designed and is rigid enough to use all those HP, why would you want to handicap the machine capabilities if you could avoid it? If you do go this route, at least have the foresight to a possible future owner to hang onto the original motor etc. It cost the ex owner of a toolroom mill I bought $1000 for not doing that. He thought the machine was worth more money because it now had a 240V 3 phase motor driven by a single phase input VFD. My opinion was to the contrary and I paid less than he'd originally paid never mind his conversion costs. If he'd at least kept the original (2 speed 415V) motor I would have paid at least his original purchase price. PDW

yes that is what I thought too . if the VFD 240v~415v 3 phase do 80% of what the real 415v 3 phase does then I'm more than happy .
cheers
Peter

Stustoys

26th July 2014, 12:57 AM

I am thinking if I can get one big enough it would be better for my lathe.
But your problem is, if you get a 240v - 415V VSD, you cant supply the input current needed, which if I recall correctly is why I suggested 240V vsd in the first place.(unless things have changed or my memory is incorrect..... better than average chance lol))

Stuart

.RC.

26th July 2014, 07:19 AM

Interesting reading here for chipmaster owners Chipmaster Variator assembly images (http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/chipmaster-variator-assembly-images-287621/)

Oldneweng

26th July 2014, 10:30 AM

But your problem is, if you get a 240v - 415V VSD, you cant supply the input current needed,

These are a whole new field to learn. I am just getting my head around what I have.:D How much current do I need? I am in the long drawn out process of installing a 32A, 240v circuit to the shed. My current VFD tops out at 8A on the input for some reason. There is a big gap waiting to be filled there.

which if I recall correctly is why I suggested 240V vsd in the first place.(unless things have changed or my memory is incorrect..... better than average chance lol))

Stuart

I don't know about that one. :rolleyes: When was "the first time"?:D It is my understanding that I bought this lathe with the intention of using a 240v VFD.

Can someone answer a question for me regarding the current carrying capability of 3ph v. 1ph cable. Given the same cross section, how much more current can 3ph carry.

I just found this on the internut

1 Phase Motor draws Current = 7Amp per HP.
3 Phase Motor (http://electrical-engineering-portal.com/5-steps-to-choose-best-motor-for-your-application) draws Current = 1.25Amp per HP

That appears to be a serious improvement in efficiency. Is this kosher, and can it be applied to VFD applications.

Dean

Edit. I have found that 3ph cable can carry just under 3 times the capacity of the equivalent in single phase cable, but what I want to understand is how the almost triple capacity can be carried with 3 conductors compared to 2 conductors for single phase.

Ueee

26th July 2014, 11:26 AM

Peter,
you are certainly obtaining a nice collection of machines there. :2tsup:

Dean,
Not only do you have more conductors, but as the voltage is higher you have less amps per HP/KW. Its the amps that cook the cable, not the watts.

Ew

.RC.

26th July 2014, 11:40 AM

Can someone answer a question for me regarding the current carrying capability of 3ph v. 1ph cable. Given the same cross section, how much more current can 3ph carry.

3 phase has three actives so each active carries it's share of the electricity...

So if a single phase motor draws 15 amps, that means one wire has to carry the entire 15 amps current flow.

If a similar sized three phase motor draw 15 amps, each wire is only carrying 5 amps..

Of course volts also comes into it... higher the volts the smaller the cable thickness required...

You look at the cable thickness of a car starter motor... 12V, might be a 3hp motor but need massive thick cables..

morrisman

26th July 2014, 12:28 PM

Interesting reading here for chipmaster owners Chipmaster Variator assembly images (http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/chipmaster-variator-assembly-images-287621/)

just printed that out , here at the library .....

nadroj

26th July 2014, 12:50 PM

Looks like a Dalek (Dr Who).
Love the swarf control.

Jordan

Oldneweng

26th July 2014, 07:52 PM

Thanks Ueee and .RC. Simple when it is put like that. I wish I had learnt about 3ph when I was a bit younger.

Dean

Stustoys

26th July 2014, 08:22 PM

morrisman

26th July 2014, 08:29 PM

hi

I was reading recently, my FLOYD text book of electronics, the standard work . They reckon 3 phase is cheaper, more economical than single phase for a given amount of power usage. This is because 3 phase systems use less copper wire than single phase systems . In a industrial environment they count every cent . Mike

samthedog

6th August 2014, 11:41 PM

A interesting review for you Peter.......... and the manual

The wandering axeman: Colchester Chipmaster Review

Chipmaster Manual 1 of 6 (http://www.scribd.com/doc/132286866/Chipmaster-Manual-1-of-6)

As it happens that is my blog :)

Good to see people getting use from the uploaded manual.

Did you get the machine up and running? Don't toss the variator if it's working. It works as a torque multiplier in low speeds which the VFD can't hold a candle to. If your getting noise, it can also be the motor bearings. Remove the internals of the under lathe cabinet and grease the motor if you are hearing a whine.

I would recommend getting a rotary phase converter before ditching any of the lathe's components.

Paul.

neksmerj

7th August 2014, 12:33 AM

Hi Stu, your post No.14 made me feel sick. To think you and I paid well over $500 for our Drives Direct VFD's and with so many hassles.

1 5KW VSD VFD Inverter Single Phase 240V TO 3 Phase 415V Variable Speed Drive | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1-5KW-VSD-VFD-inverter-single-phase-240V-3-phase-415V-variable-speed-drive-/171395256673?pt=AU_B_I_Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item27e7f41161)

I'm going to hang myself after I finish the bottle.

Ken

Stustoys

7th August 2014, 12:47 AM

Hi Ken,

Hey being on the bleeding edge costs :p. Don't feel to bad, just had a look at a quad HD phone, looks fantastic! likely worth about $700..how much will it be going for in 4 years?

I wonder if its a mod or they are coming out of China like that?

Stuart

BobL

7th August 2014, 01:17 AM

3 phase has three actives so each active carries it's share of the electricity...
So if a single phase motor draws 15 amps, that means one wire has to carry the entire 15 amps current flow.
If a similar sized three phase motor draw 15 amps, each wire is only carrying 5 amps..

That's not quite how I understand it.
If the 3 phase motor is pulling a total of 15A, each phase should be drawing 15/(Square root of 3) or ~8.7 A.
The 3 currents are not arithmetically but vector summed to get the total current.

thorens

7th August 2014, 01:17 AM

As it happens that is my blog :)

Good to see people getting use from the uploaded manual.

Did you get the machine up and running? Don't toss the variator if it's working. It works as a torque multiplier in low speeds which the VFD can't hold a candle to. If your getting noise, it can also be the motor bearings. Remove the internals of the under lathe cabinet and grease the motor if you are hearing a whine.

I would recommend getting a rotary phase converter before ditching any of the lathe's components.

Paul.

Hi Paul.
Thanks. I was going to get the 240v~415v VFD as it is much cheaper than the rotary converter .
so no i haven't got it running yet . need a good clean up as it is aging .
Peter

jhovel

7th August 2014, 09:25 AM

Going back to post 14 and following, I have to say the eBay item is a standard 380V 3-phase to 3-phase Huanyang VFD. I think someone should talk to the seller and get a lot more info before getting high hopes.....
There are lots of mis-advertised VFD coming from China and the seller may have just passed that bad information on. I've read quite a lot that say something like "suitable to run 380V 3-phase motors from 220V single phase", meaning "if rewired from star to delta configuration" which means little to uninformed sellers....

BobL

7th August 2014, 10:47 AM

Going back to post 14 and following, I have to say the eBay item is a standard 380V 3-phase to 3-phase Huanyang VFD. I think someone should talk to the seller and get a lot more info before getting high hopes.........

Yep I agree. I nearly got caught out like this last year and after an email exchange with the seller they eventually sent me the model number and it turned out the be a 3P/3P Huanyang VFD.

thorens

7th August 2014, 01:23 PM

morrisman

7th August 2014, 01:46 PM

As it happens that is my blog :)

Good to see people getting use from the uploaded manual.

Did you get the machine up and running? Don't toss the variator if it's working. It works as a torque multiplier in low speeds which the VFD can't hold a candle to. If your getting noise, it can also be the motor bearings. Remove the internals of the under lathe cabinet and grease the motor if you are hearing a whine.

I would recommend getting a rotary phase converter before ditching any of the lathe's components.

Paul.
THANKS FOR THE INFO . iM GREEN WITH ENVY LOOKING AT YOUR CHIPPY

Stustoys

7th August 2014, 05:25 PM

Hi Peter

I have email them last weeks a few time and haven't got any answer from them .

"This seller is currently away until 14 Aug, 2014"

Stuart

neksmerj

7th August 2014, 08:21 PM

Well Stu, we might be safe after all being the only two to have the special Direct Drives vfd.

Perhaps we weren't fleeced after all.

Ken

PDW

7th August 2014, 10:25 PM

As it happens that is my blog :) Good to see people getting use from the uploaded manual. Did you get the machine up and running? Don't toss the variator if it's working. It works as a torque multiplier in low speeds which the VFD can't hold a candle to. Interesting comment seeing as one of my complaints WRT the Kopp variator in my lathe is the lack of torque in low speed high range (400 rpm). A heavy cut or a big drill bit causes very noticeable loss of speed. I've pulled my variator apart and changed the oil to one I know is correct. There's no visible wear or noise from it but the lack of torque has always been there. PDW

samthedog

8th August 2014, 05:33 AM

Interesting comment seeing as one of my complaints WRT the Kopp variator in my lathe is the lack of torque in low speed high range (400 rpm). A heavy cut or a big drill bit causes very noticeable loss of speed. I've pulled my variator apart and changed the oil to one I know is correct. There's no visible wear or noise from it but the lack of torque has always been there. PDW

The variator does need occasional adjustment to ensure there is no slippage under high torque conditions. It sounds to me like you have to adjust the swash plates a bit to eliminate this.

I can push a 28mm drill bit into 1021 carbon steel with a 10mm pilot hole and it won't slip. I use carbide and have made some very aggresive cuts to the point it turned the toolpost but never has the variator slipped.

Morrisman; thanks. Before I moved to Norway I only owned a bench grinder and a circular saw. The rest I have managed to accumulate here. Living so close to Sweden has been a huge plus as Sweden is a machinists Mecca.

Paul.