Hand turning vs Copy Lathe / CNC

[Hermit]

A topic that has bugged me for a long time, not only with turning, but more relevant than most areas of woodworking - much of what we turn from solid blocks can be easily replicated, manifold, on a copy-lathe / CNC setup, for a tiny fraction of the cost of hand-turning. Of course, that's why traditional turning is dying.

From a $ standpoint, is it even worth the effort of turning traditional bowls etc with a view to making any money, even towards costs?

(Decent) timber cost alone, let alone turning time etc, seems to completely rule out any thoughts of breaking even, let alone making anything beyond cost.

(That's partly why I've been turning my hand towards segmented stuff that can't easily be replicated by a machine. The thought that I can work my a#s$ off for hours to produce a form that a machine can do in 5 minutes almost sickens me.)

I know it's a painful topic, but I'd be really interested to hear your thoughts on the subject.

[tea lady]

There is an economy of scale involved. Its not worth the set up unless you are doing heaps of them I reckon. And it needs standard blanks to start with. So that's where hand made still has it. There is some wood and certain shapes that a copy lathe can't do. And because they use scrapers the finish off them is not that great. Its still the finish that sets hand made apart.

[Hermit]

There is an economy of scale involved. Its not worth the set up unless you are doing heaps of them I reckon. And it needs standard blanks to start with. So that's where hand made still has it. There is some wood and certain shapes that a copy lathe can't do. And because they use scrapers the finish off them is not that great. Its still the finish that sets hand made apart.

Thank you Anna Marie, I'm glad to hear it put in those terms, from someone who knows what they're talking about.

I thought, from hearsay, that a copy lathe or CNC setup could do pretty well as good a job as a hand-turner, if not better. I'm pleased that that isn't true.

Personally, I enjoy it too much to really care if I sell things or not. Quite the opposite - when I sell things it's like a kid leaving home.

So we're not officially extinct just yet, and I can continue leaning 'traditional' hand-turning. :2tsup:

P.s. If I can eventually do half as well as you at turning, I'll be happy.

[chuck1]

Steve there is still things automation can't do! Thank the powers that be! We had a federation staircase and turned a sample the customer liked and the boss sent it off to the auto turning lathe place. But I ended up turning them as the machines were not up to the tasks due to the detail I put in it!
the design is imprinted in my head for next time!
As tea lady said the finish hand turned items have are far better than the auto/cnc.
I have even heard of cnc balusters being retouched by hand due to the bad finish off the machine.
Also places with auto lathes won't pull a machine down for short runs as its not worth it to them which is good for us hand turners!

[Hermit]

Steve there is still things automation can't do! Thank the powers that be! We had a federation staircase and turned a sample the customer liked and the boss sent it off to the auto turning lathe place. But I ended up turning them as the machines were not up to the tasks due to the detail I put in it!
the design is imprinted in my head for next time!
As tea lady said the finish hand turned items have are far better than the auto/cnc.
I have even heard of cnc balusters being retouched by hand due to the bad finish off the machine.
Also places with auto lathes won't pull a machine down for short runs as its not worth it to them which is good for us hand turners!

Thanks Charlie. Your's is one of the opinions I was looking forward to, as a production turner. It seems that my worries were ill-founded.

I still like the fiddly segmented stuff and similar, though, but I guess that's just me. I like really 'getting my teeth' into a project.

All the same, it gives me more incentive to turn 'normal' bowls etc. (Not good enough for spindle turning like your's yet.)


This is a hot topic, so I'd welcome others' thoughts on the subject. When I see the prices of mass-produced stuff, it makes it hard to set a price on mine. (I'd much rather simply make stuff, without worrying about prices or sales. Looks like my shelves will fill up quickly :oo:.)

[jefferson]

Steve, you'd have to ask production turners directly on this one. I've seen a good one do 2 sets of redgum table legs in quick time, probably quicker than the programming required to set a CNC machine up. I'd also like to know how you do grinders as good as say Brendan Stemp's with scrapers.

We all turn for different reasons. Sure, it's nice to be paid but the therapy is worth so much more.

[powderpost]

There was a professional wood turning tradesman in Cairns that turned balusters in a copy machine. He was one one of the old trade turners. Even though the balusters were copy turned they needed to have some detail done by hand, because the cutter could not leave a clean intersection between the bead and a fillet. Even then he would turn three balusters in the time it took me to load one blank.

I saw Glen Lucas, from Ireland, demonstrate how he turns salad bowls commercially. He turned the back of a bowl from a solid block about 350mm diameter and about 150mm thick, with four cuts with a bowl gouge. He makes a living by manually mass producing functional salad bowls, even in these days of copy and cnc machines.

Jim

[hughie]

Well the stuff I do could be done to some extent on a CNC Router set up with 4 axis. But the set up and the software is going to be expensive ie around 3k CNC Software For Artistic Applications - ArtCAM (http://www.artcam.com/) then you have to buy the CNC Router etc
But the hand made pieces sell because they are hand made, one off unique pieces.The finish is very important with this sort of work you need to aim at a museum finish as the standard. I doubt the CNC set up would do this without some high quality cutters and extensive machining time well over 12 hours I would think.

[Hermit]

Jeff, Jim and Hughie, thanks for reinforcing what the others have said.

I assumed that a copy lathe or CNC setup could produce as nice a finish as hand-turning, but clearly not.

Logic, I guess, when you think about it - a copy lathe can't tell when it's having trouble with end-grain tearout, for example, whereas a 'real' turner can see it and switch to shear scraping etc. for a cleaner finish.

All of these replies were music to my ears. Thanks all.

[Mobyturns]

There was a professional wood turning tradesman in Cairns that turned balusters in a copy machine. He was one one of the old trade turners. Even though the balusters were copy turned they needed to have some detail done by hand, because the cutter could not leave a clean intersection between the bead and a fillet. Even then he would turn three balusters in the time it took me to load one blank.

I saw Glen Lucas, from Ireland, demonstrate how he turns salad bowls commercially. He turned the back of a bowl from a solid block about 350mm diameter and about 150mm thick, with four cuts with a bowl gouge. He makes a living by manually mass producing functional salad bowls, even in these days of copy and cnc machines.

Jim

I've seen Glenn demo at two venues & can vouch for PowderPost's comments. Glenn Lucas is a very efficient & highly competent turner (& demonstrator). Mike Mahoney is another commercial production bowl turner making a very good living. Tony Hansen here in Australia is another & is a very efficient & competent production turner. I could watch all three of them turn, poetry in motion, economy of effort, just superb to watch them in full flight.

I think there is plenty of scope for production hand turners as there will always be niche markets. However finding, filling & satisfying that niche and marketing your product is the eternal problem for any wholesaler / retailer. Nowadays there is much increased competition from global competitors. Kelly Dunn in Hawaii produces translucent bowls in Norfolk Pine and specializes in local woods but will not touch Monkey Puzzle as imported bowls are available in the $ Stores in the same timber at a much lower quality & price point. No point even bothering with that wood as high end buyers perceive & associate the wood with "inferior" product.

Like all commodities / markets you have to match the price points purchasers are willing to accept, with a product that fulfills both their perceived needs and your survival. In one of the pen postings there was a comment about purchasing retail vs wholesale. Many hobbyist turners are not able to compete due to their low volume purchases at near retail price structures. I was asked to turn custom balusters on a semi permanent basis for a tradesman. However we could not purchase stock blanks at a competitive price. Our buy price was not much shy of the copy lathe mass produced "finished" item and my clients end customers were generally not prepared to pay that sort of premium over the competitors product, even though they could see & appreciate the difference in finish quality. Price rules.

[Hermit]

I've seen Glenn demo at two venues & can vouch for PowderPost's comments. Glenn Lucas is a very efficient & highly competent turner (& demonstrator). Mike Mahoney is another commercial production bowl turner making a very good living. Tony Hansen here in Australia is another & is a very efficient & competent production turner. I could watch all three of them turn, poetry in motion, economy of effort, just superb to watch them in full flight.

I think there is plenty of scope for production hand turners as there will always be niche markets. However finding, filling & satisfying that niche and marketing your product is the eternal problem for any wholesaler / retailer. Nowadays there is much increased competition from global competitors. Kelly Dunn in Hawaii produces translucent bowls in Norfolk Pine and specializes in local woods but will not touch Monkey Puzzle as imported bowls are available in the $ Stores in the same timber at a much lower quality & price point. No point even bothering with that wood as high end buyers perceive & associate the wood with "inferior" product.

Gives me something to aim for.

I don't plan to ever go into production turning, and will probably never be fast enough anyway, and also don't care too much about whether or not I sell anything, but hated the thought that a mere machine could do better than me.

Apart from my segmented pieces, everything I've done so far could be easily made by machines. I'll have to pull my finger out and learn how to make nice, well-finished one-off stuff that doesn't look just like the machined, mass-produced turnings.

I had to look up 'Monkey Puzzle', (Araucaria araucana/Chilean Pine), another timber I'd never heard of.

[Mobyturns]

Gives me something to aim for.

I had to look up 'Monkey Puzzle', (Araucaria araucana/Chilean Pine), another timber I'd never heard of.


Oops should have been Monkey pod .... Albizia saman or Raintree. Probably also a reason it is not well accepted by turners here even though it is a very good turning timber with a few allergy issues though.

[mick59wests]

Well the stuff I do could be done to some extent on a CNC Router set up with 4 axis. But the set up and the software is going to be expensive ie around 3k CNC Software For Artistic Applications - ArtCAM (http://www.artcam.com/) then you have to buy the CNC Router etc
But the hand made pieces sell because they are hand made, one off unique pieces.The finish is very important with this sort of work you need to aim at a museum finish as the standard. I doubt the CNC set up would do this without some high quality cutters and extensive machining time well over 12 hours I would think.

Hughie,
I was in the IT industry for 30 years but I reckon I will be long dead before a machine can do what you do. Replication is for 'stock standard stuff' so we just need to achieve more than that.
cheers
Mick

[Rod Gilbert]

Hi all,
I purchased my first lathe after using production run copy lathe business to produce the leg's and turned sections for the furniture I used to produce, I hadn't done any turning since I was an apprentice but thought if I couldn't do a better job of making matched set's of leg's than the copy business I would give it away, and I continued to do this in my shop until I was no longer able to work full time due to the body wearing out. As said in previous posts the finish and degree of detail is in no way comparable to hand turned work. I might be a little slower than a automated copy lathe but the end result is far superior and if you allow the time to deliver and pick-up from the copy shop I am much faster and have them when I need them not when he get's around to it. ( don't stop with the segmented stuff):2tsup:
Regards Rod.

[oreos40]

I would like to see something that with the right equipment couldn't be done as well as by hand. My dad ran a turning business for 60 plus years. I still have one of his original lathes it can be seen in the flowing video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PycgbO4tK0&feature=player_detailpage&list=UUtMgLoQKJ43jvd8nPfjACKA

The template is a piece of masonite that took about 10 minutes to make. the whole process from board to finished piece is less tan two and one half minutes. we can duplicate off an original turning directly and have turned things up to two feet in diameter and 16 feet long in one piece. we have done hollow vases three feet deep as well.

Hugie this isn't hollow but it could be this took less than three hours from block to completion. It is a one off demonstration of what a home built lathe is capable of.
http://i633.photobucket.com/albums/uu55/oreos40/egg009.jpg

[Hermit]

Hughie,
I was in the IT industry for 30 years but I reckon I will be long dead before a machine can do what you do. Replication is for 'stock standard stuff' so we just need to achieve more than that.
cheers
Mick

Yep, my conclusion too - make what the copiers can't.



Hi all,
I purchased my first lathe after using production run copy lathe business to produce the leg's and turned sections for the furniture I used to produce, I hadn't done any turning since I was an apprentice but thought if I couldn't do a better job of making matched set's of leg's than the copy business I would give it away, and I continued to do this in my shop until I was no longer able to work full time due to the body wearing out. As said in previous posts the finish and degree of detail is in no way comparable to hand turned work. I might be a little slower than a automated copy lathe but the end result is far superior and if you allow the time to deliver and pick-up from the copy shop I am much faster and have them when I need them not when he get's around to it. ( don't stop with the segmented stuff):2tsup:
Regards Rod.

G'day Rod. Thanks for the input.
I'm really pleased with the replies to this. Seems I have nothing to worry about, unless I want to make the more boring stuff.

My current NGR fruit bowl is one of those boring ones, but after that it's back to a nice, meaty segmented piece. A vase, in two halves. Should be a good challenge.

[Hermit]

I would like to see something that with the right equipment couldn't be done as well as by hand. My dad ran a turning business for 60 plus years. I still have one of his original lathes it can be seen in the flowing video.

The template is a piece of masonite that took about 10 minutes to make. the whole process from board to finished piece is less tan two and one half minutes. we can duplicate off an original turning directly and have turned things up to two feet in diameter and 16 feet long in one piece. we have done hollow vases three feet deep as well.

Hughie this isn't hollow but it could be this took less than three hours from block to completion. It is a one off demonstration of what a home built lathe is capable of.


I'll mainly leave it to hughie and the other experts to reply, except to say that it doesn't look like much fun compared to hand-turning. The off-the tool finish doesn't look as good, either.

What about cranky grain and end-grain tearout? Surely it would be much worse using a copy-lathe?

[oreos40]

I'll mainly leave it to hughie and the other experts to reply, except to say that it doesn't look like much fun compared to hand-turning. The off-the tool finish doesn't look as good, either.

What about cranky grain and end-grain tearout? Surely it would be much worse using a copy-lathe?

I have had no trouble with wild grain. I have turned ebony, paduk, to pine and white oak. I sand these mostly because the burn lines bleed into the adjacent areas. I am not aware of anyone who turns out finish grade
'off the tool" I have other videos with other stuff I don't spend much time sanding. As for museum quality I made two sets of cross and crosier for Papal processionals here in the US. I would guess if it is good enough for the pope it would be good enough. Sometimes I consider them more of a shrine than a museum but I have several pieces in alter screens for large churches as we did many pieces for Constantinos Papadakis as well. look him up on the net

[tea lady]

Also places with auto lathes won't pull a machine down for short runs as its not worth it to them which is good for us hand turners!I think their idea of short run is pretty long still for a hand turner.

I think even for someone who is not ultimately going to "be a production turner" its still a good excersis to try and do some production things. Trying to reproduce reasonably identical things teaches you the economy of movement and the direct-gesture-to-form thing. And hones your eye so you can see details others can't. And if your body already knows what to do then faced with that segmented piece you have already invested 40 hours work on, or that one amazing blank you have been saving for a special occasion, you won't send it flying around the room in its many little segments again. You gotta do a hell of a lot of jogging and running every day to think you are going to win an Olympic medal.

Its also in the doing that you get your own style too.

[stuffy]

A computer and printer can make a good copy of the Mona Lisa too.

Its the hand controling the tool that gives life to a piece of art.

:)

[Hermit]

I think their idea of short run is pretty long still for a hand turner.

I think even for someone who is not ultimately going to "be a production turner" its still a good excersis to try and do some production things. Trying to reproduce reasonably identical things teaches you the economy of movement and the direct-gesture-to-form thing. And hones your eye so you can see details others can't. And if your body already knows what to do then faced with that segmented piece you have already invested 40 hours work on, or that one amazing blank you have been saving for a special occasion, you won't send it flying around the room in its many little segments again. You gotta do a hell of a lot of jogging and running every day to think you are going to win an Olympic medal.

Its also in the doing that you get your own style too.

Good advice. I'm not too bad now at getting the shape that I want, but making two identical pieces is a different thing altogether. I need to get stuck into a bit of that. (Without a copy-lathe. :D)

Maybe some matching pairs of candlesticks in the near future.

And I'm well overdue for one of my segmented pieces to fly apart. I've been pretty lucky so far. :fingerscrossed:

[hughie]

I would like to see something that with the right equipment couldn't be done as well as by hand. My dad ran a turning business for 60 plus years. I still have one of his original lathes it can be seen in the flowing video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PycgbO4tK0&feature=player_detailpage&list=UUtMgLoQKJ43jvd8nPfjACKA

The template is a piece of masonite that took about 10 minutes to make. the whole process from board to finished piece is less tan two and one half minutes. we can duplicate off an original turning directly and have turned things up to two feet in diameter and 16 feet long in one piece. we have done hollow vases three feet deep as well.

Hugie this isn't hollow but it could be this took less than three hours from block to completion. It is a one off demonstration of what a home built lathe is capable of.
http://i633.photobucket.com/albums/uu55/oreos40/egg009.jpg

I dont doubt it especially with ArtCam software or similar and putting aside cost its tempting play with the idea.

[Evanism]

I would like to see something that with the right equipment couldn't be done as well as by hand. My dad ran a turning business for 60 plus years. I still have one of his original lathes it can be seen in the flowing video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PycgbO4tK0&feature=player_detailpage&list=UUtMgLoQKJ43jvd8nPfjACKA

The template is a piece of masonite that took about 10 minutes to make. the whole process from board to finished piece is less tan two and one half minutes. we can duplicate off an original turning directly and have turned things up to two feet in diameter and 16 feet long in one piece. we have done hollow vases three feet deep as well.


Wondering if you could make or buy such a device to attach to a big lathe?

I have a huge number of turnings to make and this would be a godsend.

[nz_carver]

Hand turned is the only way woodturning art copy lathes and cnc have and are killing it.
No respect for anyone that uses a copy lathe or cnc and calls it hand turned..

copy lathes have there limits on what size they can turn.

[oreos40]

Wondering if you could make or buy such a device to attach to a big lathe?

I have a huge number of turnings to make and this would be a godsend.

the process will work on any sized lathe. the peice in the picture was not done on a CNC. it was done with the indecees on the lathe and coupling it with a router and a template. the template just makes it exactly repeatable. what is the size of the turnings you hope to do and what lathe do you have?

[oreos40]

Hand turned is the only way woodturning art copy lathes and cnc have and are killing it.
No respect for anyone that uses a copy lathe or cnc and calls it hand turned..

copy lathes have there limits on what size they can turn.

NZ I have no problem useing hand tools but for me my joy comes from the mechanical part of the equipment and figuring out how to do with less effort. I dont downplay the skill it takes to turn with hand tools. I still have to deal with proper cutting technique and sharpening tools. Your attitude is quite disrespectful of other skills. Your comment is uncalled for but not unusual for many skilled people who want so badly to be elite. You are obviously commenting about things you are not experienced with. By the way our "big lathe" which was set up for duplicating as I mentioned before was capable of 2' diameter and 16' long. we could hollow to four feet and do three foot deep by 7' in diameter before we needed to put the base of the lathe on blocks. Limitations? How big is yours?

[oreos40]

I dont doubt it especially with ArtCam software or similar and putting aside cost its tempting play with the idea.

the lathe that I built to do this cost me less than 600 us it is not cnc controlled.
home made lathe for large unique wood turnings - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=UUtMgLoQKJ43jvd8nPfjACKA&v=3GBvyQd4sb8&feature=player_detailpage)

[Evanism]

My needs are varied.

I've a Cougar 350 variable speed I found second hand (it was utterly unused, still had the grease and plastic on it). I've used it plenty and I love it.

I'm capable of making things, but not fast. I make a template of the things I need to copy turn in 3mm MDF and mark a spindle with all the beads and coves (still something I'm trying to master - a skill to be learned and shown to me by a former member).

The objects are 15cm long coat stand mushrooms and bird stands. The bird stands are 3 piece affairs, with the top foot part being basic, the centre rod quite ornamental and the foot a large ornamental circle. The bird stands strike me as something that can be pseudo-automated.

The coat stand mushrooms are made 20 at a time and the bird stands 100 at a time. It takes me ages and at the end I'm well wishing for something else to do!

The video excited me as it was pretty close to the approach I use now. That video lathe looks like something conjured up from a metal lathe and a home made (but well done) machine. The dude in it pumped out 5 or 6 samples in 2 minutes. Envy!

Don't lament nz_carver, I'm not sure how others spruik for business, but I can't keep up. While I can't comment on how it was in "the past" Ive found there is a dedicated and growing consumer group wanting artisanal bespoke items in great quantity. As soon as people find out the things I can do, they are all over me like a bad rash.

It might be different here too (I'm not exceptional, or even "good") but I do market myself in a very particular manner that seems to get an unbelievable strike rate.

[oreos40]

[QUOTE=Evanism;1794205]My needs are varied.



The video excited me as it was pretty close to the approach I use now. That video lathe looks like something conjured up from a metal lathe and a home made (but well done) machine. The dude in it pumped out 5 or 6 samples in 2 minutes. Envy!

Evanism, that is my lathe. lol thats a little more credit than deserved they do take about a minute apiece to turn. it is a converted craftsman metal lathe. the cross feed screw is removed and replaced with a lever. the compound feed is retained for easy diameter changes when the tool is removed for sharpening. This particular lathe was manufactured with timken tapered roller bearings so it has withstood constant speeds of over 2000 rpm daily for over 60 years. I overhauled it last year for the first time in its life. I have other videos that may show the template and other parts better search oreos40 on youtube.

[Mobyturns]

Hand turned is the only way woodturning art copy lathes and cnc have and are killing it.
No respect for anyone that uses a copy lathe or cnc and calls it hand turned..

copy lathes have there limits on what size they can turn.

"Bakerlite" & "Casein" were the begining of the end for large scale traditional production wood turning shops. Plastics and architectural design influences certainly had a major impact. To say copy lathes & CNC are killing hand turning is only partially correct. All manufacturing trades in traditional western manufacturing areas are in decline due to the influence of globalization of corporations, new technologies and the desire to find efficiencies & to reduce labour inputs & other costs. Wood turning just started earlier.

If it were not for "woodturning art" & the likes of Childs, Raffan, Ellsworth, Darlow, Jordan and many many more in the 1970 & 80's we most probably would have a much different wood turning scene now, perhaps much smaller maybe even almost an underground movement. They revived modern woodturning.

CNC requires a much different set of skills and is a logical progression from hand turning to copy lathes to semi or full automation. If you seek out ornamental turners through the centuries they were certainly not hand turners but were very well respected. Now turners like Bill Ooms in the US are performing magic on home built custom "CNC" or electronic versions of OT lathes. Still requires knowledge of hand turning techniques, materials & their quirks plus the skill & knowledge to build and have their machines do their bidding.

I have a lot of respect for the various skill sets and the individuals who posses them & make wonderful objects whether they be anything from rustic hand turned through to highly structured OT items. All require skill, vision, & interpretation to convey their thoughts & ideas into a physical object.

Have a look for Dale Chase (dec), Bill Ooms, Gorst duPlessis, Claude Lethieq, or NZ'er Ken Newton - amazing living treasures.