Sources of drill bits, counterbores and slitters for saw handles

[Morbius]

Hi All!

I am enjoying the numerous sources for finding split nuts these days, and figured that knowing the best places to buy tools for making handles for saws might also be handy.

I've seen that a number of people use slitters fitted to their router table for fitting their blades into their saw handles and was wondering if anyone had some decent sources for buying these?

I've had a go at drilling saw plate and that was a long slow job using standard drill bits, and tends to deform the metal around the edges. Where do people get the you-beaut bits for drilling saw plate?

I've got a trial handle that I'd love to have a go at fitting, but I am a little hesitant about using a spade bit to put in the screws and medallion. Where do people pick up decent counterbores to do that?

Thanks,

Craig

[FenceFurniture]

Hi All!

I am enjoying the numerous sources for finding split nuts these days, and figured that knowing the best places to buy tools for making handles for saws might also be handy.

I've seen that a number of people use slitters fitted to their router table for fitting their blades into their saw handles and was wondering if anyone had some decent sources for buying these?

I've had a go at drilling saw plate and that was a long slow job using standard drill bits, and tends to deform the metal around the edges. Where do people get the you-beaut bits for drilling saw plate?

I've got a trial handle that I'd love to have a go at fitting, but I am a little hesitant about using a spade bit to put in the screws and medallion. Where do people pick up decent counterbores to do that?

Thanks,

CraigHi Craig

Stewie (planemaker) knows a source of solid carbide bits for the saw plate. I think IanW can help with the slitters (for a drill press).

As for drilling the handle - I wouldn't use a spade bit. You can get smaller forstners from Lee valley (http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=63566&cat=1,180,42240,63566) (second table down has the 7/16" etc). Those forstners aren't as good as Colt in my experience, but unfortunately Colt don't make one smaller than 1/2".

I also have a 7/16" Tungsten Carbide Brad Point from Riss (Colt) - in fact I have two slightly different types. They are are currently with IanW to see what he thinks of their performance for saw nut holes (I've not used them yet). Frankly I doubt they'll be any better or worse than a forstner (given that the hole is only 3-4mm deep, it's not a big ask of a drill bit), but it would at least be another source of a bit that will do the job.

HTH
Brett

[Pac man]

You can buy a slitting saw from mcjings or Os like McMaster Carr.

before deciding on a counterbore you need to decide on split nut sizes and supplier. I would buy the counterbore setup from Stewie for TFWW nuts. If you are going to get supplies from Issac Smith he very kindly went out of his way to supply me with those that fit his splits nuts.

[Simplicity]

Have a look at blackburn tools website
Under saw parts
No affiliation with them
But a great site

[Morbius]

Guys,

Thanks for this.

What I have so far is:

Slitting Saws:
Mcjings (https://mcjing.com.au/searchresult.aspx?keyword=slitting)
McMaster Carr (http://www.mcmaster.com/#slitting-saws/=thz4rb)

Counter Bores
Colt Zero Mark Counter Sinks (Carba-Tec (http://www.carbatec.com.au/colt-zero-mark-countersinks_c21270)) (Not recommended)
Veritas Counter Sink Sets (LV (http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=32309&cat=1,180,42240))

Forstner Bits
Colt (from Carba-Tec (http://www.carbatec.com.au/colt-maxicut-forstner-bits_c20881))
HSS Forstner & Saw Tooth Bits (LV (http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=63566&cat=1,180,42240))
Maxi-Cut Forstner Bits (LV (http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=62137&cat=1,180,42240))

Spade Bit
3/16 Solid Carbide Spade Bit (Blackburn Tools (http://www.blackburntools.com/new-tools/new-saws-and-related/carbide-spade-drill/index.html))

Happy to keep adding suppliers that people recommend. Apparently the Colt Zero Mark ones don't make the grade due to accuracy.

Craig

[FenceFurniture]

Craig, I have had a few Colt ZeroMark countersinks and I wouldn't give you tuppence for them. I actually gave them away (as new) because I didn't feel that I could ask any money for them.

There are 6 known problems with them, and any one of those six is a deal breaker.

Just for starters, several of them had a 60° countersink. Yep 60°, instead of 82° or 90°. Quality control of a Chinese standard - that's because they come out of China (unlike the flagship Colt products which now come out of France and are excellent).

[Pac man]

Please add Blackburn tools to your supplier list.

[Heavansabove]

Stewie (Planemaker) has put together some kits that are very good - counterbore, carbide bit for saw plate (from Blackburn), depth stop, saw screws (from TFWW), and an alignment plate for use with counterbore. Drop him a PM to see if he has any left - very reasonable cost. there is a thread somewhere that I cannot find at present.

Cheers
Peter

ps if you get saw screws with the square section to stop twisting, chiseling out the square is a pain. Suggest picking up a 1/4" machine mortise chisel to do an accurate cut of the square mortise (still have to dig out the wood, but works well). I picked up a new one on eBay, though I notice the seller has increased the price... You might already have a mortise machine.

[Ron Bontz]

Just an FYI.
First: If you are going to be making more than a few saws you may try using straight flute carbide bits. They hold up better than the spade bits. I have used spiral, straight and spade and much prefer the straight flutes.
Second: Take a look at ENCO as well as Traver's tools for slitting slotting saws. I recommend cobalt. Carbide is a bit over kill for a few saws and very brittle.
Three: TGIAG, ( Dominic ) as well as I sell saw bolts with the square under head and split nuts. I also have what some call shoulder nuts. These are superior in my opinion than those washer types. I have tried three different styles. Needless to say I started making the square under head over a year ago and never looked back. Then Dom followed with the exact same. Good move on his part. Dom's prices on them were pretty reasonable as well.
Note: I assume you have a CNC shop some where there. Hence you could have them made locally and save much on shipping. Etc.
Four: Counter bores are nice, and I use piloted counter bores myself. However you really don't need them, per say. Unless you just want to spend a few dollars/ lbs. Take a look at my site under "Ramblings".

Lastly, I am still waiting patiently to view all those saws / kits I shipped some time back. :):) Best wishes.

[Morbius]

Thanks to Ron,

We have some more suppliers:

Slitting Saws:
Mcjings (https://mcjing.com.au/searchresult.aspx?keyword=slitting)
McMaster Carr (http://www.mcmaster.com/#slitting-saws/=thz4rb)
ENCO (http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INDRVSH)
Cobalt (as per Ron's suggestion (http://www.travers.com/Search/SearchKeyword?SearchCriteria=UserSearch=slitting))

Counter Bores
Colt Zero Mark Counter Sinks (Carba-Tec (http://www.carbatec.com.au/colt-zero-mark-countersinks_c21270)) (Not recommended)
Veritas Counter Sink Sets (LV (http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=32309&cat=1,180,42240))

Forstner Bits
Colt (from Carba-Tec (http://www.carbatec.com.au/colt-maxicut-forstner-bits_c20881))
HSS Forstner & Saw Tooth Bits (LV (http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=63566&cat=1,180,42240))
Maxi-Cut Forstner Bits (LV (http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=62137&cat=1,180,42240))

Spade Bit
3/16 Solid Carbide Spade Bit (Blackburn Tools (http://www.blackburntools.com/new-tools/new-saws-and-related/carbide-spade-drill/index.html))

Happy to keep adding suppliers that people recommend. Apparently the Colt Zero Mark ones don't make the grade due to accuracy.

Craig[/QUOTE]

[Morbius]

I found this on the Gramercy site:

Gramercy Hand Cut Saw Maker's Rasp (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/dept/TRR/item/GT-SHRASP.XX)

329489

Reviews seem to all be fairly positive and I've been eyeing one of these off for a while. :)

Craig

[Simplicity]

I've also been looking at them my self.
There very high on I must have one of those list.
They look excellent for making saw and plane handles.

[hiroller]

I have a couple of the Gramercy rasps and have been very happy with them.
They are stainless so a benefit if rust is an issue!
I haven't compared them directly to Auriou or Liogier but being hand stitched they are much better than the common machine stitched rasps.

I use a standard "Universal" drill bit for saw plate. They look like a bit like a masonry bit but have carbide teeth. Use it without hammer - goes through saw plate like a hot knife through butter. Just need to support the plate behind the drill.
Much cheaper than solid carbide (and only the carbide bit cuts the hole :U ).
Here is the Bosch example: https://www.masters.com.au/product/900050037/bosch-multi-construction-drill-bit-5x85mm

The TGIAG saw nuts are excellent but you need a US address as they don't currently ship to Australia.

I have also purchased one of these but haven't had a chance to try it out yet:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/191041467898

[planemaker]

quote: The TGIAG saw nuts are excellent but you need a US address as they don't currently ship to Australia.


These are still available for Australian residents. . I just checked.

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/

The Logier Handle Makers Rasp with its increased curvature is much better suited to shaping backsaw handles than the Gramercy.

If your going to purchase any of the Logier Rasps, go for the harder Sapphire Finish. The softer Traditional Finish will experience wear when used on our typical hardwoods.

I also prefer the superior stitch pattern on the Logier Rasp's to that used on the Gramercy.

http://www.hand-stitched-rasp-riffler.com/saphir/rasps/handlemaker-rasp.html

For saw bolts with a 3/16 shaft I would highly recommend the 3/16 Solid Carbide Bits. After 6 months of use on saw plate, I am still using the same bit, and its never required a resharpen. If you do require a different imperial size send Isaac Smith an email. I am sure he will try his best to source it for you.

http://blackburntools.com/new-tools/new-saws-and-related/carbide-spade-drill/index.html

Stewie;

[hiroller]

Hi,

I think you are mixing up TGIAG saw nuts and TFWW saw nuts.
TGIAG currently only ship to North America according to their web site.
http://www.tgiag.com/sawnuts.html

[planemaker]

Your right. My apologies.

[Morbius]

I've been looking at one of the McJung saw slitters. Are these supposed to be used in a router table?

Craig

[Simplicity]

I would say no.
But then plane maker and my self have both used them in a router table..
But and its a huge BUT I can slow my router right down AND YOU NEED TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT
And you need to be extremely careful
If your not 110 percent confident DONT DO IT

[rob streeper]

The minimum speed of my VS router is about 4k RPM if I remember correctly. I've read that you guys use this technique but the thought of an unshrouded saw blade cutting around curved surfaces that close to my fingers is too scary even for me. Do they catch or bind much? Had any close calls?

[Morbius]

The idea of using an unguarded blade at those sorts of speeds worries me a tad. Plus I enjoy owning fingers.
If not on a router, what are they supposed to be used for?

I do have a triton router, and can adjust my speeds, but it still worries me.

Craig

[rob streeper]

The idea of using an unguarded blade at those sorts of speeds worries me a tad. Plus I enjoy owning fingers.
If not on a router, what are they supposed to be used for?

I do have a triton router, and can adjust my speeds, but it still worries me.

Craig


The slitting saws are designed for use on milling machines where the vise holds the work, the table moves the vise and the blade is mounted to the chuck - no fingers close to the blade.

I prefer to cut my blade slots by hand because I like my fingers too.

[Simplicity]

Craig .
To be honest ,I've used the slitting saw method in the router table. But it only cuts to a depth of about 20/30mm depending on the slitting saw.
For the few saws I've made ,I now find it easer, more relaxing almost as quick to use the method of laying a saw flat horizontal on the bench packed up to the height I need( I dial in the height using A4 paper as shim material) with the kerf the right thickness ,and just run the saw handle past it a dozen times or what ever it takes.
I can't remember which saw maker on you tube or saw doing it ,but it works well for me .

[Morbius]

Thanks for the suggestion.

For some reason, no saw I own can quite get into the area of the handle I need to finish installing the plate. I've purchased one of the Trojan saws that were mentioned earlier in this thread, and made very little further progress. It's out of frustration that I am looking at the slitting saw at all.:~ Heck, yesterday I spent nearly two hours trying to make progress with a modified hacksaw blade and still not even close.

The handle I am working on is a copy of an S&J Sovereign 179. You would not believe how many times I've busted my knuckles on this one handle!

349501

I've delayed and dithered over this project for nearly 18 months as the slotting issue has me jiggered.

Craig

[IanW]

I only use slitting saws at quite slow speeds, in my drill press, and for cutting the slots in the brass spines. For this I have a jig that shrouds the blades, and although I hand-feed the brass, I can easily keep fingers well away from the nasty bit.

I tried slitting handles with the slitting saw, but soon gave it away. Slitting saws have no set and (the ones I have, anyway) have no relief so they bind as soon as they get into the wood a bit, which makes it pretty exciting to try & hold onto your handle and avoid getting slit pinkies. I very quickly decided it was far easier & safer to cut handle slots with a regular saw. I've got enough saws that I can always find one to cut the right size of slot, whatever thickness of plate I'm fitting. I score an extra-deep mark with a small marking gauge, and start the saw in that. I flip the handle a few times so that the slot gets cut from both sides. The main thing is to end up with a nice, straight slot, no wobbles or curves. If the slot gets a bit curved, when you tighten up the bolts at the end, you'll find a curve appears in the end of your blade. You can also get that if the spine & blade slots are a bit out of whack. A small curve there won't affect the function of your saw, as it's only at the very end that you never use anyway, but it doesn't look very professional. Or maybe it does, I've seen it on a few old factory-made saws!

For drilling sawplate, you really do need carbide - you'll kill an ordinary HSS drill in just one hole, unless you anneal the saw plate where you want to make the hole. You can do that by chucking a 3 or 4mm nail in your DP, spinning it at a good speed while holding it very firmly against the plate. That will produce a small focus of red-hot metal, which usually cools slowly enough to give you a softer area. But Sutton "Builders drills" ( with carbide tips & blue paint in their lands) will do a good job, they are obtainable in any hardware store & won't break the bank. Their main drawback is that the points on the 5 & 6mm sizes are a bit dull, and they will skate unless you make a pretty significant divot with a centre-punch. The smaller sizes (4mm or 3mm) will start better, so maybe use one of these to drill a pilot hole. I've discovered they work best without any cutting fluid, too - just steady firm pressure sends 'em though in no time.

Cheers,

[IanW]

.......For some reason, no saw I own can quite get into the area of the handle I need to finish installing the plate.....

Yep, I don't know any way to make a curved-bottomed hole with a straight saw! :U. I've made myself a couple of small, curved saws (that cut on the pull stroke) to do this job. It's a bit tedious, but they get me there. I think it would be harder to do with a stair-saw style of saw, that cuts on the push stroke. The saws I'm talking about are very easy to make - you only need about 20mm of teeth on the curved end, and the teeth can be rough as anything & still work, because only a couple are cutting at any point as you roll the saw on each stroke.

Cheers

[hiroller]

I've read that slitting saws can be improved for sticky materials (such as brass or wood) by filing a little off the side of each point so the tip ends up only half the thickness of the saw. This alternates each side. and allows a bit more clearance for cut material. Apparently they also track straighter.
I haven't tried this myself as it sounds rather tedious but might be simplified with a Dremel or equivalent.

[hiroller]

I've read that slitting saws can be improved for sticky materials (such as brass or wood) by filing a little off the side of each point so the tip ends up only half the thickness of the saw. This alternates each side and allows a bit more clearance for cut material. Apparently they also track straighter.
I haven't tried this myself as it sounds rather tedious but might be achieved with a Dremel or equivalent.

[Isaac S]

I use them in my router also. I used to do it in the drill press (see the picture below), but the faster speed of the router works better for me.

I made an arbor for them that leaves only about 1/4" of the blade exposed.

http://www.blackburntools.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/handle-part-iii-06.jpg


I haven't worked out a better way to do this yet, although I have some ideas. If you are only making one or two handles, I wouldn't bother with the slitting saws.

Because the teeth have no set, they are very finicky to use. They heat up VERY quickly from the friction of cutting, which causes them to warp. The warped blade leaves a kerf that can be twice as wide as it should be. I had hoped that the aluminum arbor I made would act as a heat sink and stabilizer for the blade, but it doesn't.

I use it in a router table. I don't have any guards. I feel comfortable using it that way, but can't speak for others. I haven't noticed much difference in performance between running it slow or fast. I take a couple of passes to get to full depth. Each pass takes just a second or two. You have to keep the handle moving fast so that it doesn't dwell in any one spot, or the aforementioned warping occurs. I have never had the blade catch or try to kick back on me. There really isn't that much force transmitted to the wood.


I've read that slitting saws can be improved for sticky materials (such as brass or wood) by filing a little off the side of each point so the tip ends up only half the thickness of the saw. This alternates each side and allows a bit more clearance for cut material. Apparently they also track straighter.
I haven't tried this myself as it sounds rather tedious but might be achieved with a Dremel or equivalent.

That is interesting, and probably worth trying. I'm guessing the blades are hard enough that a file won't work well. I wonder if removing every other tooth would accomplish the same thing?

[IanW]

....... I'm guessing the blades are hard enough that a file won't work well. I wonder if removing every other tooth would accomplish the same thing?....

My blades are HSS, and a file won't even mark them - they have to go out to a saw-sharpener when they need attention! Taking a bit off alternate tooth tips seems a bit counter-intuitive to me. Reducing the number of teeth seems a bit more logical, makes it more of a wood-type ripsaw.

I might have run mine too slowly, when I tried cutting wood. The speeds you guys are running them at probably makes more sense, now that I think about it. The shorter the time spent in the wood, the less time there is for heat to transfer to it. There's probably a Goldilocks speed that balances things best.

My other problem is some of the woods I use. She-oak in particular, is one of those woods that chars easily, like Cherry, but worse, it leaves a gummy, charred residue on any blade (or drill bit) that gets a bit over-warm, which doesn't help it to travel freely!

I think handsaws are a much simpler way to go for a few handles, too. For larger numbers, I would definitely be experimenting with mechanised means. The saw manufacturers must have had reliable methods - does anyone know what sorts of blades they used & how they were configured? They did some pretty deep cuts in those saw handles!

Cheers,

[rob streeper]

http://www.blackburntools.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/handle-part-iii-06.jpg



That thing looks hungry - for fingers. I'll stick with my cordless version for now - I can cut blade slots at a much higher rate than I can complete the other steps at this point.

349544

I must admit though that the danger factor is kinda appealing...

[rob streeper]

Thanks for the suggestion.

For some reason, no saw I own can quite get into the area of the handle I need to finish installing the plate. I've purchased one of the Trojan saws that were mentioned earlier in this thread, and made very little further progress. It's out of frustration that I am looking at the slitting saw at all.:~ Heck, yesterday I spent nearly two hours trying to make progress with a modified hacksaw blade and still not even close.

The handle I am working on is a copy of an S&J Sovereign 179. You would not believe how many times I've busted my knuckles on this one handle!

349501

I've delayed and dithered over this project for nearly 18 months as the slotting issue has me jiggered.

Craig

Hi Craig,

If you're interested I've prepared an illustrated step-by-step procedure reflecting my techniques of saw blade and back instillation. It's 44 pages so I chose not to post it here, it's on my Alamo Toolworks website blog.

Cheers,
Rob

[Morbius]

Hi Craig,

If you're interested I've prepared an illustrated step-by-step procedure reflecting my techniques of saw blade and back instillation. It's 44 pages so I chose not to post it here, it's on my Alamo Toolworks website blog.

Cheers,
Rob

Rob,

Thanks, and yes I am interested!

Craig