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.RC.
6th September 2014, 10:38 AM
Found this small surface grinder in the CQ region.... Not a common thing to come up for sale

http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/tannum-sands/miscellaneous-goods/repco-power-surface-grinder/1055024641

An FP4 on Grays and accessory in different lot

http://www.graysonline.com/lot/0004-7005746/metalworking-and-fabrication/deckel-fp4m-universal-milling-machine
http://www.graysonline.com/lot/0015-7005746/metalworking-and-fabrication/qty-of-4-x-machinery-lathe-accessories

overpriced cyl grinder

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/181516649789

auction

http://www.lockwoodcompany.com.au/S2749.htm (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/181516649789)

variant22
6th September 2014, 01:19 PM
And there goes any chance of me getting one of those items.

markgray
6th September 2014, 04:31 PM
The Deckel FP4M looks nice with the rotary and plain table. It would be in my top shelf as far as manual toolroom mills go. No tooling to see so I wonder what is happening to that.
I am assuming the blue paint is a recent addition.
Had to put a low bid in just to make sure it does not go too cheap. Not that I think that is likely.
Is the high spped head from that machine ? If anyone goes to look at it would love to hear what you think (even if that is after the auction finishes if you plan to bid yourself).

I very nearly brought an FP3 with extensive tooling earlier in the year that Ray and Josh put me onto. Price was $7000 which was reasonable but you have to be quick as between agreeing to come and look at it when the owner got back from China and getting there it was withdrawn presumably sold.

Mark

WCD
6th September 2014, 09:25 PM
...Is the high spped head from that machine ? ....Mark

(Drool.) I think that's a boring head, not the high speed head for general milling.
If so it should fit several of the FP series machines.


Bill
.324420

variant22
6th September 2014, 10:20 PM
Thanks guys - you have most likely ensured that someone off forum gets this. That said there are 3 on Ebay Germany at the moment. Just a shame that the unwashed masses can access this section, rather than "members only".

Hunch
6th September 2014, 11:49 PM
If the precision boring head is of the same era, should only be a FP1 and FP4M fitment then. Seeing there's no riser evident, a betting man would say it's to suit the 4. :wink:

While the constant "help" of people pointing out upcoming items isn't entirely appreciated by this little black duck, fair old stretch to expect a bargain at Grays!

.RC.
7th September 2014, 08:18 AM
ahh OK... So if someone got it for $500 and posted in the tool gloat thread they got a Deckel FP4 for $500 people would complain about that... if someone points out a Deckel is for sale and it goes for true value, then people complain about that..

Well you can please some people some of the time, but you cannot please everybody all of the time...

No one seems to be too worried about the cylindrical grinder I posted.... fancy that..

variant22
7th September 2014, 08:21 AM
If the precision boring head is of the same era, should only be a FP1 and FP4M fitment then. Seeing there's no riser evident, a betting man would say it's to suit the 4. :wink:
The FP1 and FP2 have different pressure angles for the gears that drive the head. Given the colour of the item I am not convinced it is for the FP4. I think more likely an FP2. Anyone's guess however.

variant22
7th September 2014, 08:26 AM
Well you can please some people some of the time, but you cannot please everybody all of the time...
Let me know what you're looking for RC so that I can be sure to post it up here. Just so you don't miss it of course! It flows both ways.

.RC.
7th September 2014, 08:34 AM
Does not worry me... Everyone knows I am after a smallish planer...

In fact one was posted here years ago that I did not know was for sale and I was grateful for the heads up, even though I was outbid on it..

texx
7th September 2014, 08:36 AM
Let me know what you're looking for RC so that I can be sure to post it up here. Just so you don't miss it of course! It flows both ways.

now i am wondering why you read this section of the forum , if not to see if there is something for sale or auction that you have missed elsewhere .:rolleyes:

johno

variant22
7th September 2014, 09:01 AM
now i am wondering why you read this section of the forum , if not to see if there is something for sale or auction that you have missed elsewhere .:rolleyes:

johno
Johno, didn't I see you complaining a couple of days ago about not posting here because the flaming stressed you too much? Then you come on into an active conflict zone to offer your 2 cents? There is something in that for you to think about.

markgray
7th September 2014, 10:34 AM
Being a relatively new member of the forum what is the general consensus about talking about auction items prior to the auction closing.
The title of this thread seems to suggest that is what this thread is for.

Forum: EBAY, GUMTREE, AMAZON (and other sale sites) Metalwork ONLYA place to inform members and others about metalworking ads on eBay, Gumtree and other off forum sites for metalworking machinery and tools, etc

There seems to have been plenty of discussion about lots of items without any problems. But a highly prized machine on the most watched auction site that I assume everyone who is interested in these things looks at, seems to have caused a stir.
If you are going to have a thread like this you have to be prepared to take the good with the bad. There will be times when you find out about something that you would otherwise not have known and been very happy, and there may be times when you want something to stay quiet to increase your chances of buying it at a lower price. And I say this as someone who is bidding on the Deckel in question!

So moderator/senior members and others should we restrict listing and discussion till after items have finished or is it Ok to list and discuss while items are still 'live'. Lets not get too carried away with this but a general guideline would help us newer members to not upset the established order of things.


For my 2cents worth (and obviously Richard thinks the same as he was the original poster) I am happy to have items listed before they close and any discussion/help with identification/offers of inspection etc to be done prior to bidding closing. This is not meant to kick the hornets nest so remember we are all friends here!

Regards

Mark

variant22
7th September 2014, 01:15 PM
For the record I personally PM'd RC just a couple of weeks ago and told him I was looking for a Deckel. No PM giving me a heads up, just this public post.

As for "live" auctions newbies should be aware they are likely to step on someone's toes by posting here.

Theberylbloke
7th September 2014, 02:05 PM
For the record I personally PM'd RC just a couple of weeks ago and told him I was looking for a Deckel. No PM giving me a heads up, just this public post.

As for "live" auctions newbies should be aware they are likely to step on someone's toes by posting here.

With respect, you and I probably don't know what has been on RC's plate since you PM'd him. Sometimes life gets in the road of us being perfect. None the less I can understand why you are upset over this.

A bit over a year ago I posted about a Deckel FP3LB for sale on a grays auction. The motor on an FP3 is bit big (electrically) for me to run. Just to be sure, I tracked the vendor down and asked questions. Turned out to be a FP2LB, so mentally kicked my self for mentioning the auction on here. Bid hard and got it at what I believe was a fair price (at the top end of my budget, though, as not much goes cheap on Grays!) Machine needs some work to get back in proper operation, I can live with that. Morals to the story... Expect to pay fair value, if you get it for less, good luck to you....... This forum is a small section of all the people in this country who play with metal, posting an auction on here is probably neither here nor there in the end..... either your budget will be enough or it wont be.

With regards to the Deckel head. It looks identical to the precision boring head that came with my mill. It's my understanding it will fit the FP1, FP2 and LKG precision grinder. In the later configuration it would be known as an LKB. There is a separate raiser The lathes.co.uk site states that most of the attachments for the FP1 and FP2 are interchangeable. The bid on this lot is $239 at the moment which looks cheap to me for the head alone. 2 days to go.

Cheers

The Beryl Bloke

.RC.
7th September 2014, 02:39 PM
With respect, you and I probably don't know what has been on RC's plate since you PM'd him. Sometimes life gets in the road of us being perfect.


Pretty much, I get lots of PM's and read lots of forums...

Also in the last few weeks I have upgraded my licence to be able to drive road trains, I have had to help the widow of my recently deceased neighbour manage the 30 000 acre property she has been left with.. I have also been building a quick hitch for my loader, as well as running our own property and doing the usual casual job I have when I am required...

Trying to remember who is looking for what on the wood work forums was the least of my concerns..

And at the end of the day it is on Gray's Online, has been listed up there for a couple of weeks.. It would not matter if it was posted on here or not, it was going to go for decent money because it is a Deckel and located in a state not usually known for high grade machinery... Anyone here under the impression they were going to get it cheap is deluding themselves..

I have been outbid on large amounts of equipment in the past, and those items have sometimes been posted here... I just say well good luck to the buyer and move on with my life...

Vernonv
7th September 2014, 06:40 PM
I like seeing all the different machines and gear for sale, so I'm a regular reader of this sub-forum, yet I've never purchased anything I've ever seen listed here.

If you think that as long as an item for sale doesn't get mentioned here, you'll get it for a bargain, you are deluded.

I'm pretty sure the "great unwashed" are already looking on Gumtree, Grays, eBay, etc and this particular sub-forum probably wouldn't even rate a mention.

Move on.

KBs PensNmore
7th September 2014, 06:46 PM
Does not worry me... Everyone knows I am after a smallish planer...
Hi RC, The planer that you are after, is it of the type that was used for planing cylinder heads? I think there could be one for sale in town here!! It was offered to me for about $300 I think it was, can confirm that after I get your reply.
What's involved in upgrading the license to drive R/Ts please?
Regards
Kryn

.RC.
7th September 2014, 08:07 PM
Yes I guess planers could have been used for that back in the days before hardened valve inserts...


http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=metal+planer

When a machine is so far away as South Australia freight has to come into the price.... In most cases it would rule out buying something so far away... I think Bryan is after a planer as well and he would probably be within easy driving distance...

What is involved in upgrading your licence depends on what state you are in..

I had a HR licence and well lets say may have been doing some rare driving of a semi on dirt roads without a HC licence.. Things have changed over the past decade or so that if a person was to do such a thing these days there may be less leniency then in years gone past... Plus if I was ever to do such a thing and get caught what I could lose would not be worth the risk.. I also have missed out on some casual work because I did not have a HC licence...

In Qld and I think the rest of Australia at least you can go from HR to MC in one step.... It used to be pretty easy... All you had to do was drive for fifty hours and get someone to sign a letter and you were good to go... These days you can still do that but only from HC to MC.... To go from HR to MC these days you have to go through a registered training and assessing school..

To go from HR to HC you have to go through the local transport department and do a practical test, so I thought it easier to take a punt and pay the large sum of money and try to do the course and assessment via the registered training school and hope like hell I would pass.. It also would open doors for other employment should something unexpected happen...

It turned out to be far easier then I was expecting although it was not a walk in the park either as I did have to demonstrate I did have the required skills... It was one of the harder tickets I have had to get... Drive a B-double through and around the middle of town... Round-abouts, traffic lights, stop signs (least I fully stopped at the stop sign this time, not like when I went for my car licence many years ago), plenty of intersections and turning, reverse, etc.... But it was not excessively difficult provided you keep your head switched on with regards to positioning and be aware of your surroundings and plan your moves... The hardest bit was driving a truck I had just jumped into and I had not driven an 18 speed for years and the indicator lever was on the wrong side and would not click off itself... Got a certificate from the business... Go to transport dept and upgraded licence.. Then went and had an icecream to celebrate...

KBs PensNmore
7th September 2014, 10:30 PM
Is it of that type that you are looking for? Getting it to QLD may not be a problem, as I have a friend that goes there about once a month with a High roof Transit empty, as he brings back tropical plants.
Kryn

Pete F
8th September 2014, 02:06 PM
Richard thanks for the heads up on the Deckel, as it turned out I was going to mention here but you beat me to it.

I've personally quietly bought quite a bit of gear from reading this forum, stuff I hadn't seen. Likewise things come up here that may attract other bidders and I'm already interested. Big deal, it's swings and roundabouts. Needless to say the bottom feeders who think they're going to pick up a pristine FP4 for beer money won't be impressed, but they're invariably the same people who always try to nickel and dime sellers, then wonder why they always miss out on bargains. The FP4 isn't a cheap machine, there may be one or two people who read this who are genuine buyers, and this thread won't one iota of difference. If you're prepared to pay market value the chances are you'll be the new owner, if not keep dreaming and telling the stories of how you "almost bought an xyz but was [insert excuse here]".

In the meantime thanks for those who help out other members by giving a heads up on things that are selling around the place.

edit: OT but I was supposed to do my HR last annual leave, but didn't get time. I think the upgrade in NSW from that is 12 months, but can't recall the details. The way work is going we may be forming our own trucking company :rolleyes: At least specialise in machinery relocation, that should ensure we go broke in record time!

cba_melbourne
8th September 2014, 03:20 PM
There is always to sides to it. As a seller, I would be happy my auction being mentioned here. More exposure means more potential buyers and potentially a better price. As a buyer, I would rather not see the item I am already bidding on being given more attention. The title of this thread does not say it is only for buyers or sellers. It is for everybody to share. I am both a seller and a buyer of tools and machine parts. I guess most of us would be.

Personally, I do like bargains. But it has to be fair and honest bargains. For example, it is morally wrong to cheat the widow of a deceased metalworker into selling way below market value. Rot in hell who does. The more exposure an item has, the more likely that it will get a fair price. Even if the seller has no idea what the item is worth.

variant22
8th September 2014, 04:34 PM
I want to see some of these holier than thou posters start posting up auctions they are bidding on. Of course they would never dream of it. I am more than happy to ensure they pay a fair and reasonable price. The suggestion that one would be ripping someone off (not referencing you Chris - but that is the undertone of some of the posts) - Qantas in this case is ridiculous. The added advertising will do nothing more than drive up the price.

I thought the point of the forum was to work together as a community. I asked a member to give me a heads up, and that did not happen.

I have absolutely nothing against RC. He contributes a ton to this forum. I am sure he has helped me with advice in the past and I understand that he probably gets a fair few PM's. No one is perfect and I hold no grudge against RC. My only point of the post was a gentile :whatonearth:.

Pete F, nickle and dime? That would be the day!

Pete F
8th September 2014, 06:21 PM
Nobody is asking or expecting anyone to post auctions they're bidding on, this is a forum where everyone is given an opportunity to help out others by giving them a heads up on stuff they may not have seen. By the same token, sometimes somebody have seen something of interest they may want to bid on, only to see it mentioned here. Big deal, that's life and you win some and you lose some. I have personally found out about quite a number of things through this forum and bought them at what I consider very good prices. No whinging, no bitching, and no cheap shots at others. Instead I'm very grateful for those who have taken the time to share the information on opportunities they may not want to take themselves, but others may be interested in.

While this is a public forum, it's a relatively small audience, and anyone who thinks they missed out in a cheap Deckel as a result of it being posted on this forum is frankly kidding themselves!

Pete F
8th September 2014, 06:46 PM
Instead of the massive dummy-spit, with accompanying toys being turfed from the pram, for those who seem to think the world revolves around them, perhaps the solution when this type of thing happens is to post that they may be interested in some of things in the auction, and if other members are similarly interested PM them so they can arrange between themselves not to bid against each other. :rolleyes:

variant22
8th September 2014, 06:58 PM
Edit: Terminating my involvement in this thread. Really going nowhere and lacking any point. Good luck to those bidding on the Deckel.

.RC.
9th September 2014, 05:04 PM
Well I do not think any of us expected $16 000..

Vernonv
9th September 2014, 06:23 PM
Must be because of all the publicity here ... :rolleyes:

.RC.
9th September 2014, 07:06 PM
I do not think it is an out of this world price for the machine, I would not pay it simply because the machine is way too small for my use... But someone with the need for it's capability and well heeled would not find it expensive... Provided it is in very good condition... When people are paying $500 000 for houses, and $40 000+ for a basic sedan car, $15 000 for a machine that will most likely last your lifetime is not much...

$16 000 might sound a lot.... But for instance a fully decked out Tormach PCNC is around $30 000... A brand new genuine Bridgeport is in the US around the $15 000....

A new King Rich turret mill here is probably $20 000..

Hunch
9th September 2014, 08:41 PM
The FP1 and FP2 have different pressure angles for the gears that drive the head. Given the colour of the item I am not convinced it is for the FP4. I think more likely an FP2. Anyone's guess however.

Machine has been painted, probably when the swarf tray under the table was modified - usual modus operandi I've observed when these things are done at big organisations, unless the head was on the machine at the time, they'd miss out on the renovation. Anyhow seems like a lot of dosh for the Qantas cachet.

Colchester CNC lathes were sold to the flying rat up north according to a tech I spoke to recently, maybe they'll come up next.

Pete F
10th September 2014, 12:46 AM
Must be because of all the publicity here ... :rolleyes:

Indeed! Some will no doubt go to their grave sincerely believing that it would have gone for 250 bucks if only if nobody on a Woodworking forum had been informed of it :D

I thought the machine would go for $10-12K plus rip etc, so not all that much more than I was expecting. As far as the paint job I wouldn't really know about that. What I can say quite confidently however is that the machine came from an era where no short cuts would have been taken. I'm reasonably familiar with Qantas Engineering, and the fact that's the pedigree would in itself command a good premium, and rightly so too.

Good luck to the new owner.

markgray
10th September 2014, 08:31 AM
I wonder how much of the price is the Deckel (or Qantas) premium.
Of course it is an excellent machine and appears in good condition but no tooling or other accessories and no universal table (although the rotary table looks good). Would be big dollars to tool up.
The total weight of the machine also seems low at 1450kg from what I have read (say compared to my SHW at 2500kg). Freight to Canberra won't be a trifle either.
There seems to be a building gap between the increasingly sort after Deckel and the rest of pack which can be just/nearly as good.

Hunch
10th September 2014, 10:09 AM
Weight is correct - with either the fixed or circular table mounted, old FP4 minus the M is much beefier. FP1 is about half the weight in comparison.

Premium for Q, who knows, although contact mentioned previously didn't have a lot of good to say about LAMEs turned machinists at Sydney at least, can't imagine it being used for a huge workload at any rate.

Price of the thing bare was ~ 80k back in the late 80s, boring head 10k, pivotable circular table, no listing, but I'd expect 20/25k, and you get an additional 12mm of Z! So what, 15% of original cost, maybe not too bad a deal after all.

Pete F
10th September 2014, 12:34 PM
I agree guys (although not the part about the Qantas engineers). Obviously I have some reasonably good inside experience there, and the machines at Qantas are very well looked after. Whether they guys themselves make good machinists after leaving I can't say, and it's really beside the point anyway.

I just bought some things from another Grays' auction, and the contrast between the two is chalk and cheese. Most of the machines coming on to the market through auction sites like Grays are because the company has gone belly up. The pattern of the company leading up to it is typically very similar, with decreasing maintenance on machines that have been flogged to death until the doors are finally closed by employees who couldn't give a toss whether the machines are maintained or not. I've yet to see a Qantas machine that hasn't been in excellent condition, well maintained, by employees who's whole work ethic revolves around near enough NOT being good enough. You're definitely going to be paying a premium for that. Mark IIRC you're the proud owner of just one such fine example.

One thing I've learnt is, the price tag, even if it hurts at the time, is sooner or later forgotten, and sometimes it's worth gritting one's teeth and jumping at opportunities as they arise if you're able. Life is too short to frustrate yourself by surrounding yourself with crap and then constantly struggling to get said crap to work!

Ueee
10th September 2014, 10:36 PM
I totally agree Pete, the auction here at the ANU had well looked after machines too, and whilst the Blohm was not really that expensive it still hurt at the time! However i have spend the last 2 days solid grinding parts (with a 2" wide wheel too, oh how i like a wide wheel now-i can actually make her sound like she is loading up!). I'm so glad i spent the money now.

There are 2 FP4's "fully tooled" (not sure what that really means) coming up for sale locally. They re asking 20k each, i was told one was sold and the same guy would buy the other if no one else wanted it. The demand is certainly there, and that 17k is looking pretty good (depending on what fully tooled really means of course)

Ew

Hunch
11th September 2014, 08:06 AM
Think mine was mentioned as comprehensively tooled too, which amounted to a load of worn out hss end mills, so would be interesting to see what anu come up with!

There was a vast array of stuff available from carrying rods, a couple of different microscopes, the array of tables and heads, cabinets, vices, yada, yada. Probably would have cost more than 300 large back in the day. Fer 'nstance, never seen the 160,000 rpm grinding head for a 4, but if that alone was 20k today, let alone the machine, definitely would be a bargain.

.RC.
11th September 2014, 12:45 PM
However i have spend the last 2 days solid grinding parts (with a 2" wide wheel too, oh how i like a wide wheel now-i can actually make her sound like she is loading up!). I'm so glad i spent the money now.




Pictures or it didn't happen.. :)

Hunch
11th September 2014, 07:08 PM
Just thought of a bloke down in Melbourne who did have a 4M and a 4MK for sale a little while back too. Doubt he'd sell for tuppence if he's still got them, have an email if anyone's serious though.

RayG
15th September 2014, 03:27 PM
Interesting thread, I had spotted the Qantas FP4 on Grays, but didn't see this thread until someone mentioned it at the weekend scraping course. Since moving this forum from the main metalwork section, I hardly ever look at it anymore, and I know I'm not alone in that regard. The final price for the FP4 was higher than I thought, but I'd put that down to the classic auction situation of two bidders going at it hammer and tong, the third bidder was out of the picture at half the final price.

I think the Qantas factor played a part in the bidding, and of course being a FP4M doesn't hurt.. although, I'd have knocked a few thousand off for the blue colour.... :)

By the time the buyer get's it installed and running with a bit of tooling, it's going to be $20K or so, still not a bad price for a highly desirable machine.

Ray

.RC.
27th September 2014, 09:51 PM
www.ebay.com.au/itm/111469364895

I do not consider that overpriced if in good condition...

.RC.
28th September 2014, 10:37 AM
ROFLMAO at the description of this one

cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=251659249312


Would suit someone who is a professional welder not for beginners.

hmmmmm..


Compressor needs repairs. the electric motor starts but wont turn.


Electric motors do something else other then turn when they start?

Such a bargain at only $1000...

Pete F
29th September 2014, 11:04 PM
I seriously wonder what planet some of these sellers orbit around sometimes, as it sure as heck doesn't seem to be our dear planet earth!

You're in luck however RC, as he's dropped the price to $800. Quite the bargain I'd say, and I'm surprised there's still a big fat zero bidders.

.RC.
2nd October 2014, 05:50 PM
Someone here better get this.. Has the horizontal support as well.. better then a Dickel... :p

http://www.graysonline.com/lot/0009-3007664/manufacturing/milling-machine-koyo-van-norman-osaka-japan