Type A and Type B assets - Grays online

[simonl]

Hi all,

Been looking at a few surface grinders recently, particularly Grays online. One thing that puzzles me are their asset categories. They have type A and type B assets.

As follows:



The area is defined as a work site and in accordance with the requirements of the VIC OH&S Act 2004, site removal activities must be conducted on a safe manner. In order to manage and minimise site risks. The assets have been categorized into type A or B Assets

Type "A" assets are low risk & are to be removed by the purchaser with Grays staff supervision and are to be collected on Thursday 2nd & Friday 3rd October 2014 between 9.00am and 4.00pm.
Type "B" assets are high risk and the site activities must be in accordance with the attached contractor procedures and are to be collected on Thursday 2nd & Friday 3rd October 2014 between 9.00am and 4.00pm.
Type "B" assets are high risk and the site activities must be in accordance with Graysonline contractor procedures and are to be collected by appointment with a qualified contractor. JSAs and contractor requirements forms are to be submitted before work is started on site.

Now, given that I have been watching SG on Grays for a few months now, I have noticed that until now, they have all been type A assets, even the monstrous grinders that I have no interest in. I then come acoss a nice J&S 540P and it's listed as a type B asset. What the? It's not exactly the biggest SG out there!

Anyway, here's the add. I know there is a specific thread for auctions but this is not intended as an auction notification but more an attempt to get more info from anyone who has been the winning bidder on a type B asset and whether it's a complicated and expensive a task as it seems.

http://www.graysonline.com/lot/0004-3007637/power-tools/surface-grinder-make-jones-shipman?spr=true


What also puzzles me is when they say this in the information:

Note: Carb-I-Tool can skate to front of building - purchaser will need to provide a crane truck to transport.

How can they "skate" it to the front of the building if it's such a high risk item to move? I was kinda oping they can just "skate" it to the front of the building and I'll lift it onto my trailer with a hand operated engine crane. Looks like that would be a no no!

Simon

[argeng]

G'day Simon,
I made enquiries to Grays regarding this a while back, I think the type B blurb is fairly open. You can send them a JSA/ WMS that you make up yourself, i.e. Item to be removed using appropriate means, all staff involved will have appropriate safety gear. If the ad mentions Carbitool will skate to front I recon you are ok, I am going there tomorrow, I can see if I can get a contact from the site.
Bruce

[Stustoys]

Hi Simon,

You're lucky my shed is full ;)

Just how much do you think that thing weighs?

PM sent(well shortly lol)

Stuart

[.RC.]

They are not very heavy, 700kg maybe....

One thing you have to bevery wary of with them is the hydraulic tank is in the base and is not a closed unit.... I had to move mine about 300km to get it home... The back of the car was full of oil by the time I got home..

[RayG]

Pick up and moving of heavy precision machinery needs planning and preparation... You will need a forklift or crane truck to load and unload, 700 kg is not really engine crane territory...

You might have to fill in a JSA, but they are pretty straight forward as a rule.. Just don't cut corners and make sure you have all the bases covered. See if you can get a manual on-line that will tell you the lifting points, make sure you have plenty of load binders, dunnage and straps. If you sling it, you might need a spreader.. Phil can probably give you chapter and verse on correct ways to sling precision machines.

One other thing with surface grinders, is to check how the table is mounted especially check if it's on ball bearings, as sudden shocks can brinell the ways. Block it up and make sure it can't move in transit if that's the case.
Nearly all Grays auctions are a hive of activity on collection day, and there is often a forklift driver who will do you a favour if you ask nicely.


Ray

PS http://seeforge.com/5-steps-when-conducting-a-jsajha/

[simonl]

Thanks guys. I figured it was so that it anyone was injured that Grays have something in writing to cover them.

Hi Bruce, I was hoping you are correct. I can fill out that OH&S stuff and tell them what they want to hear. Only thing is I don't have any insurance other than on my motor vehicle.
Stuart, I know you are a fan of J&S grinders! I'm surprised you weren't already all over it! I thought you would always have room for a J&S! :U

RC, I figured between 700 and 800Kg from my basic research I have done. I had also read that the hydraulic oil can spill everywhere if not careful. Lifting is supposed to be done using the two eyelets at the top in conjunction with the two on each side just below the table. They all show up on the pics except there seems to be one missing on the LHS top.

Wait and see what happens. I suspect it will go for more than I care to pay. Also, the pick up dates are not very convenient either. I'll be away from Tuesday to Friday this week on a family outing. I may make it home in time on Friday but I can't guarantee it. They seem pretty well inflexible with the pick up dates, which I found out when I bid on a Nagase SG in Sydney. Glad I didn't win that one! Maybe I could get them to skate it out onto the naturestrip and just leave it there for me to pick up A/H?

Simon

[simonl]

Pick up and moving of heavy precision machinery needs planning and preparation... You will need a forklift or crane truck to load and unload, 700 kg is not really engine crane territory...

You might have to fill in a JSA, but they are pretty straight forward as a rule.. Just don't cut corners and make sure you have all the bases covered. See if you can get a manual on-line that will tell you the lifting points, make sure you have plenty of load binders, dunnage and straps. If you sling it, you might need a spreader.. Phil can probably give you chapter and verse on correct ways to sling precision machines.

One other thing with surface grinders, is to check how the table is mounted especially check if it's on ball bearings, as sudden shocks can brinell the ways. Block it up and make sure it can't move in transit if that's the case.
Nearly all Grays auctions are a hive of activity on collection day, and there is often a forklift driver who will do you a favour if you ask nicely.


Ray

PS http://seeforge.com/5-steps-when-conducting-a-jsajha/

Thanks Ray. Yea 700 Kg is getting on the heavy side for an engine crane although I did mange to lift my Macson 18" shaper off the trailer with mine which I thought weighed more than 700Kg.

I would also plan on removing the table for the exact reason you mention. If I can't remove the table then perhaps some 10mm timber spacers to lift it off slightly.

Anyway, it all seems a bit too hard to organise ATM since I'll be away. I'll see, these things always seem to come up at the most inopportune times! :~

Simon

[Stustoys]

Stuart, I know you are a fan of J&S grinders! I'm surprised you weren't already all over it! I thought you would always have room for a J&S! :U

I would be..... but I really have run out of space, in fact I'd run out of space before I bought my last machine :p

Stuart

[.RC.]

I would also plan on removing the table for the exact reason you mention. If I can't remove the table then perhaps some 10mm timber spacers to lift it off slightly.



No need to do that, it runs on plain slides... You cannot just "lift" the table, you will bend the hydraulic ram rods..

I did read somewhere that on some models the saddle axis ran on balls, but that person may have been dreaming as mine is cast on cast slides all the way...

[Steamwhisperer]

Hi Simon,
ours was moved by professional machine tool movers and all they did was lower the head down on to a block of wood sitting on the magnetic chuck with just enough pressure to stop the table from moving.
It all seems ok.

Phil

[simonl]

Thanks Phil & RC.

RC, I was planning on disassembling the table with a tool kit but looks like that won't be needed either way. Phil, using the head to "clamp" the table sounds like a very practical idea. Probably use an abundance of rachet tie downs too.
I think I will most likely have to let this go anyway. It turns out that I'll be away till Saturday NOT Friday as first thought. :doh: I had put a bid on it but since been outbid (luckily) I also have a bid on an Elliot 8-18 SG in Sydney, it prefer a J&S but anyway. The Elliot has pick up dates that run into the next week so gives me a little more time to organise. That auction finishes 40 mms before the J&S auction so I may make some enquiries about how "flexible" the pickup dates are.

Simon

[.RC.]

I wouldnot be too cut up about missing out on a J&S grinder...

They are good grinders within their envelope, but there are far better designs out there.. They are way over rated IMO.. I put them in the same category as Colchester lathes... Very popular more because they were built to a price rather then a standard....

Still I like mine and it does what I ask of it... But it is not a Blohm..

[simonl]

I wouldnot be too cut up about missing out on a J&S grinder...

They are good grinders within their envelope, but there are far better designs out there.. They are way over rated IMO.. I put them in the same category as Colchester lathes... Very popular more because they were built to a price rather then a standard....

Still I like mine and it does what I ask of it... But it is not a Blohm..

Ha! I've never owned one so I can only be guided by what I have read. Oh, also Stuart once told me that J&S are the ONLY manufacturers of SG, the rest just try! How could I argue with that!:U

As for a Blohm, well I would scoff at seeing a learner in a Maserati so me owning a Blohm would have to be of a similar TOOL factor!

One needs to be realistic when it comes to machine quality and capability and see that there is some correlation between that and the skills of the person using them!

[RayG]

I'd be looking out for a reasonable Okamoto, Sure Blohm is nice, ask Ewan, he has one. But you'd be very unlikely to find one. Okamoto, should be easier to find a good one.

Or if you'd like a TOS Surface Grinder....Rich River Dealers have one, last person I sent up there, came away with a Hardinge HLV :D

Sorry, too late it sold already for $600 http://www.graysonline.com/lot/0031-3007371

Ray

[simonl]

I'd be looking out for a reasonable Okamoto, Sure Blohm is nice, ask Ewan, he has one. But you'd be very unlikely to find one. Okamoto, should be easier to find a good one.

Or if you'd like a TOS Surface Grinder....Rich River Dealers have one, last person I sent up there, came away with a Hardinge HLV :D

Sorry, too late it sold already for $600 http://www.graysonline.com/lot/0031-3007371

Ray

I had been watching that one too. In all honesty it is ridiculously too too big for my needs. Also the front panel hanging off with all the electrics exposed had me wonderings why it's like that. Another factor, I can't bring myself to own a machine tool called TOS! :U My wife would never let mew live it down. A TOS for a Tosser I can se her saying…. :~

There are a couple of Okamoto SG for sale a while back. Was unsure about them and their size. These machine tools seem to grow in size when you put them in your shed!

Simon

[Stustoys]

Oh, also Stuart once told me that J&S are the ONLY manufacturers of SG, the rest just try!

No No, it wasn't me that said that(you trying to get me stoned to death? lol). Its was a seller of a J&S at a Grays auction inspection I went to over near Ford years ago.

Stuart

[simonl]

No No, it wasn't me that said that(you trying to get me stoned to death? lol). Its was a seller of a J&S at a Grays auction inspection I went to over near Ford years ago.

Stuart

I knew you would disown that comment!

I think it was you that said that Blohm was rubbish and over rated too, likened it to a VN commodore…. :cool:

OK I've stirred the pot enough, now I'm outa here.

Simon

[simonl]

OK. Turns out that a collection day of Monday will work fine with the vendors AND they have agreed to load onto my trailer with a forklift if I'm the winning bidder. Things are looking good. Just need someone to outbid me on the Elliot in Sydney and then win this auction here. I think it's more likely I'll be stuck with the one in Sydney OR not get any of them. Having said that, I did a search and looked at quite a few SG that went for auction in the past year with Grays and they all seem to sell for about the ball park I'm aiming for, with the exception of lots sold in QLD, they went for astronomical prices! So, I guess we shall see.

Simon

[Toggy]

Simon,

Call me a tosser all you like for having a TOS toolroom lathe, because I now have a Hardinge HLV too.:D:rolleyes: The Tos are built like the proverbial brick outhouses.


Ken

[simonl]

Simon,

Call me a tosser all you like for having a TOS toolroom lathe, because I now have a Hardinge HLV too.:D:rolleyes: The Tos are built like the proverbial brick outhouses.


Ken

Ha I'm still laughing after the shenanigans I caused with Stuart and now I pissing myself as I type this too! You would no doubt know that I meant no offence, just having a giggle. So, for future reference, the TOS SG are worth a look then? I guess I could rebadge it Titan machinery, Optimum Maschinen, Lada Niva, or something!
Yes, you got a Hardinge HLV, I got no come back for that :C:C tool or no tool, that is simply awesome! :cool:

Simon

[Toggy]

Simon, No offense taken. Just couldn't help taking the p!ss out of you.

All the Soviet Bloc countries prior to the break up were apparently paid on tonnage out the door; not number of units produced. Castings are usually massive and no such things as finesse.

I have no idea why that Rich River grinder had the front panel off. It was too big for me and I quickly lost interest after seeing the lathe. Having checked up on some other Tos surface grinders that appeared to be smaller than this one they were running 7.5hp motors to the hydraulics. To big for my RPC. The Tos lathe was factory specced with 8hp and this one came with a 10hp 2 pole. I now run it on a 3hp 4 pole motor, but to utilise the 2900 rpm capabilities I would need at least 8.
I have an almost new Tos 3 jaw chuck here and it is top quality in my opinion. Good enough for the Hardinge. Cast your mind back to the Soviet FoxBat plane that defected years ago. Claimed as the best fighter plane of the time; but with hydraulic fluid sloshing around on the cockpit floor. Their machinery seems to work well enough, but general appearance does not count.

Ken

[RayG]

Nothing wrong with TOS machines, they are built to last, and good solid Czech made soviet era heavy iron engineering.. they would eat those puny swiss and german machines for breakfast.... :)

They are still around, http://www.tosvarnsdorf.com/en/

Ray

[.RC.]

I believe there were a few TOS organisations in the soviet era.... The Tos company that makes chucks was not the same as the TOS that made borers...

Maybe TOS means something in cheq speek.. Like Seiki means precision or something like it in japan, hence so many businesses with Seiki in their name..

[Toggy]

RC,

My understanding is that it is/was a conglomerate of factories in under the umbrella of the TOS name. There was even one factory over the border river in Hungary.
My lathe was made by the MAS factory. Tos Trencin is another name that comes to mind. I find ease of use and accuracy great with my Tos very good.

Ken

[Michael G]

These machine tools seem to grow in size when you put them in your shed.

I assure you they don't - the chuck on mine is still 10"x5"

Michael

[malb]

Going back to the original question about cat A and Cat B items on Grays, I believe that cat A items are items that are portable and do not require qualified and insured tradespeople (to disconnect from mains power and other services, etc, or for dismantling such as erected racking systems, mezzanine floors, etc,), specialist machinery to remove from area, or pose a transport hazard.

Anything that does not qualify as cat A automatically becomes cat B and generally requires a 'pre qualified contractor' to disconnect, and remove from site or load to customer arranged transport.

In this case, the SG may be hard wired to power, rather than plug connected, or it may be acknowledged that the unit should have the hydraulic fluid drained and appropriately contained before transport, as having a few litres of fluid sloshing around the factory floor or dribbling over the road from a trailer are OH&S hazards.

[Pete F]

Going back to the original question about cat A and Cat B items on Grays, I believe that cat A items are items that are portable and do not require qualified and insured tradespeople (to disconnect from mains power and other services, etc, or for dismantling such as erected racking systems, mezzanine floors, etc,), specialist machinery to remove from area, or pose a transport hazard.

Anything that does not qualify as cat A automatically becomes cat B and generally requires a 'pre qualified contractor' to disconnect, and remove from site or load to customer arranged transport.

In this case, the SG may be hard wired to power, rather than plug connected, or it may be acknowledged that the unit should have the hydraulic fluid drained and appropriately contained before transport, as having a few litres of fluid sloshing around the factory floor or dribbling over the road from a trailer are OH&S hazards.

That's what I thought too, but the item info said they could skate it to the front of the building as I understand it.

[simonl]

Couldn't help myself so I went and inspected it. The SG has already been disconnected from the power, the coolant drained but I think it still has hydraulic fluid. The manager who I spoke to was very helpful. He offered to skate it to the front and then to load it on my trailer with a forklift. I spoke to Grays about using a forklift and they told me it can't be done that way and that I would have to hire a contractor with a crane. Edit: The grays website has a listing of "preferred contractors" so I played the game and rang one, they charge $100/hr with a 3 hour minimum. If they turn up and have to wait in line I also have to pay for that too. I don't begrudge paying a dude $100/hr with a crane as it sounds reasonable to me given the equipment & overheads he must have but why would I want to do that when they have a forklift? That's what forklifts are for, lifting stuff! Cheers, Simon

[Pete F]

I don't see why you need to use one of Grays "preferred" contractors, and can use whoever you please. Also I'd say once it's out of the building you could tell Grays to shove it where the sun doesn't shine and you can balance the thing on your forehead for all it's still their business. Once it's off premises you could skate it all the way home if that's what floats your boat, it's no longer their concern. The problem in this instance is the lifting is being done by the dude in a forklift who works for the company. It would be a ballsy move to rely on them honouring their promise to lift it, while they have Grays and a bunch of peeved "preferred contractors" squealing like stuck pigs in the background.

I must admit I'm becoming increasing irritated by Grays, and don't especially like dealing with them, but that's just my opinion. Remarkably it always seems to go reasonably well on the day however, and the guys there are normally pleasant and helpful.

[welder]

Did you win the Elliot in Sydney ?

[DSEL74]

It sold so the pending question now is did you get it, and have any issues?

[simonl]

Hi guys. Well good or bad I won the Elliot in Sydney. Im not fussed either way. The J &S went for $830 and I would have been happy to pay more after inspecting it yesterday. Oh well looks like im going to Sydney next week weds & Thursday!

Cheers simon

[welder]

Was that the one in Petersham ?

[argeng]

You never know the J&S may have kept going going going gone, as is Grays. Well done with the Elliott, if it is built like my lathe I think you will be happy.
Cheers
Bruce

[simonl]

Thanks guys. Yes in Petersham. About 5 mins from you Andre. We should meet for a coffee!

[welder]

Thanks guys. Yes in Petersham. About 5 mins from you Andre. We should meet for a coffee!
ye for sure I bought a pallet jack and some workbenches. I am actually standing infront of the place now on my phone :U

[simonl]

Ok tell me is it the place that has a sign saying "sintered alloys" I did a google street search trying to find a contact number so I could deal with them direct but the phone disconnected. Grays wont give anything away but I suspect they have gone broke given everything is sold.

im currently in a cabin with now power in the middle of the bush where ill be till saturday strangly, phone reception is booming in! I plan on leaving wednesday morning, stay in sydney wednesday night , pickup the sg thursday and then drive hone during the day/night. Fancy a meal at that African restaurant in Newtown wed night?

[jhovel]

Did anyone win anything at the Moorabbin Gray's auction (Carbitec property)?

[argeng]

I will be going there either tomorrow or Friday, need something picked up.

Cheers Bruce