Offset Dawn Vice Repair

[wm460]

I picked up a Offset Dawn Vice that has a missing jaw and has a chunk broken on a screw hole.
How can I repair this? Getting it welded is out of the question as it is over 1000km round trip to where I can get it done.

I did wonder if i fill the area up with something like JB Weld the drill and tap it.

Also where can I get replacement jaws? the one on it is 120mm long.

http://i511.photobucket.com/albums/s356/wm460/Shed/Other%20Tools/P8310818.jpg (http://s511.photobucket.com/user/wm460/media/Shed/Other%20Tools/P8310818.jpg.html)

http://i511.photobucket.com/albums/s356/wm460/Shed/Other%20Tools/P8310820.jpg (http://s511.photobucket.com/user/wm460/media/Shed/Other%20Tools/P8310820.jpg.html)

[Jekyll and Hyde]

Dawn still sell replacement jaws, although I believe they aren't that cheap. If you've got a mill you could machine something up that would be quite suitable, mild steel would probably do the job depending on what you're using the vice for.

As far as the bolt hole goes, looks like there might be enough meat behind there to simply drill the hole deeper and tap it, and just use a longer bolt. Could use jb weld or some other epoxy to clean it up cosmetically if you wanted...

[Ropetangler]

I would agree with J&H on this one. The vice appears to be cast iron, which will be tricky to weld, unless you get someone who really know what they are doing, from what I understand a good brazing job will be easier, and would work just as well, assuming that the hole is one of the 2 threaded holes to secure the missing jaw. (Actually welding with a nickel electrode can easily provide you with very hard nodules almost impossible to drill and tap with ordinary tools) From the photo, it looks like the bed for the jaw is pretty rough, and really needs building up and then machining back, so that you have a good supporting bed for the new jaw. This will prevent straining on the jaw holding bolts, and greatly lessen the chance of future breakouts. Here is a link to Sydney Tools, and if you navigate around, you might find the right jaws if this one is not the one you want, but as J&H has said, they are pretty expensive. https://sydneytools.com.au/dawn-65156-imperial-jaws-countersunk-bolts-pair-steel-to-suit-old-style-vices If you have no machining or welding facilities, JB Weld would allow you to fill voids, which you could file back, and drill and re-tap the thread, so that a replacement jaw, either a genuine spare or home made would be fully supported, and likely to get you out of trouble till you can organise a more permanent repair. Good luck with it, Dawn vices are worth some TLC, and are likely to give good service for a long time,
Rob
PS As you would be putting JBWeld in front of a partially tapped hole, or rather a partial hole, it might be difficult to drill and tap it unless you drill it oversize and then helicoil it.

[BobL]

One of the members suggested making jaws out of of mild steel for my Dawn and so I did. Nearly 3 years on I haven't regretted it as the times I felt hardened jaws would have been useful have been well and truly outweighed by the times I wanted softer jaws. I thought the softer jaws would mark or become damaged and need to be replaced but so far they are working out fine.

[Michael G]

As you would be putting JBWeld in front of a partially tapped hole, or rather a partial hole, it might be difficult to drill and tap it unless you drill it oversize and then helicoil it.

Personally I'd try greasing a suitable bolt (vaseline or similar), screw that into the hole and then pack the JB weld around it. With luck you will mould the thread you need.

Next question is do you have the equipment to make up a jaw of mild steel and even (as you look to be a woodworker), do you have the steel?

Michael

[wm460]

Thanks for your replies. You have given me a lot to think about.
Blimey the replacement jaws are pricy.
I will give it a clean up and take another photo I hope it doesn't need machining as that is a 1000km and 10 hr trip.
Also I want to clean it up and repaint it, What type of paint should I use?
To make jaws out of mild steel if I get rectangular bar of closest size as possible, apart from cutting to length and drilling the hole for the screw what else will I have to do?

[BobL]

Thanks for your replies. You have given me a lot to think about.
Blimey the replacement jaws are pricy.
I will give it a clean up and take another photo I hope it doesn't need machining as that is a 1000km and 10 hr trip.
Also I want to clean it up and repaint it, What type of paint should I use?
Have a look at this thread for some ideas on cleanup http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=134107
I used Epoxy enamel but I don't thing it matters what you use as it will get beat up anyway.


To make jaws out of mild steel if I get rectangular bar of closest size as possible, apart from cutting to length and drilling the hole for the screw what else will I have to do?

That's all I did for mine
http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=168352&d=1303904821

[Michael G]

Blimey the replacement jaws are pricy.
I will give it a clean up and take another photo I hope it doesn't need machining as that is a 1000km and 10 hr trip.
Also I want to clean it up and repaint it, What type of paint should I use?
To make jaws out of mild steel if I get rectangular bar of closest size as possible, apart from cutting to length and drilling the hole for the screw what else will I have to do?

If a jaw has been there before then it probably won't need much work - perhaps a lick with a file?
As Bob says, just about any paint will do. I like the wattyl Kilrust but there are others out there
If you can measure up the existing jaw I'm prepared to make a couple of MS ones up for you and post up to TC

Michael

[wm460]

What do you reckon not to bad?

http://i511.photobucket.com/albums/s356/wm460/Shed/Other%20Tools/P9010824.jpg (http://s511.photobucket.com/user/wm460/media/Shed/Other%20Tools/P9010824.jpg.html)

http://i511.photobucket.com/albums/s356/wm460/Shed/Other%20Tools/P9010823.jpg (http://s511.photobucket.com/user/wm460/media/Shed/Other%20Tools/P9010823.jpg.html)

And the one jaw that was on it.
http://i511.photobucket.com/albums/s356/wm460/Shed/Other%20Tools/P9010827.jpg (http://s511.photobucket.com/user/wm460/media/Shed/Other%20Tools/P9010827.jpg.html)

[wm460]

http://i511.photobucket.com/albums/s356/wm460/Shed/Other%20Tools/P9010825-1.jpg (http://s511.photobucket.com/user/wm460/media/Shed/Other%20Tools/P9010825-1.jpg.html)

[TheNutter]

+1 for making up some mild steel jaws and if you felt it necessary drilling and tapping a new bolt hole through into the middle of the jaw into the body of the vise.

regards

Ian

[Michael G]

What do you reckon not to bad?

There don't look to be any big dings in it so it should be fine. Provided the new jaws sit flat that's all you need to worry about.

Are you able to measure the jaw up for me or is it better to post the old one down for me to measure?
(Send me a PM if you want me to make jaws and we can swap details)

Michael

[KBs PensNmore]

I'd be inclined to take up Michaels offer on the jaws, then fit a bolt with a thin coating of a lubricant and then fill the gap with JB weld as someone else suggested. That's what I like about this forum, a lot of genuine people ready to help.:2tsup:
Kryn

[Michael G]

I plan to make up some replacement jaws for Mark in the near future but he's away from his vice at the moment so while I have an old Dawn catalogue that gives outside dimensions for jaws, I haven't got information on the bolt hole positions. Has anyone got a 4 1/2" dawn offset vice similar to Mark's and can measure the bolt sizes and positions for me?
The catalogue calls the jaws "imperial - old style" but lists the bolts as M8. Looking at some photos they might be that, but then if imperial could be 5/16" or even 3/8".

Michael

[Ropetangler]

I plan to make up some replacement jaws for Mark in the near future but he's away from his vice at the moment so while I have an old Dawn catalogue that gives outside dimensions for jaws, I haven't got information on the bolt hole positions. Has anyone got a 4 1/2" dawn offset vice similar to Mark's and can measure the bolt sizes and positions for me?
The catalogue calls the jaws "imperial - old style" but lists the bolts as M8. Looking at some photos they might be that, but then if imperial could be 5/16" or even 3/8".

Michael

Good evening Mike, it may pay to wait till you do have access to exact details or measurements, as judging by the details of my 6" offset Dawn, (which is marked as a Dawn 150, implying a metric 150 mm instead), there could be some traps for young players. As an example, my Dawn 150, has jaw inserts of 152mm in length as best I can determine in poor light, and has 5/16 18tpi fasteners holding them in. The fixed jaw has machine bolts, and the movable jaw has countersunk flat head screws, although these seem to have been home made from machine bolts which have been faced off and reverse chamfered in the lathe before having a slot cut in, perhaps with dual hacksaw blades, by the look of it. Interestingly the hole centres are different for each jaw insert, although the moving jaw (and perhaps the fixed jaw as well) has been drilled and tapped to accept the countersunk screws, but also has through holes outboard of the tapped holes on the same 5" pitch as the fixed jaw. Perhaps this was done to allow the use of jaw inserts already in stock, but on my vice, the two inserts have different hole centres, although it would seem that it would also accept identical jaw inserts. I have no idea what the smaller vice would be like in this regard. Hopefully someone will come up with the relevant info, Regards,
Rob

[simonl]

Hi there,

If that vice was the right price then I think you got a bargain. It looks to be a reasonably straight forward repair using the advice already given. JB weld would come up nice with a lick of paint.

Simon

[Sawdust Maker]

A question from the sidelines from someone who is curious

I've heard about this JB weld stuff, will it work in a situation where it will be pounded?
I imagine a situation as here in a vice it is likely to get some beating, not directly but I'd expect some force when something held in the vice is bashed

[simonl]

I plan to make up some replacement jaws for Mark in the near future but he's away from his vice at the moment so while I have an old Dawn catalogue that gives outside dimensions for jaws, I haven't got information on the bolt hole positions. Has anyone got a 4 1/2" dawn offset vice similar to Mark's and can measure the bolt sizes and positions for me?
The catalogue calls the jaws "imperial - old style" but lists the bolts as M8. Looking at some photos they might be that, but then if imperial could be 5/16" or even 3/8".

Michael

Hi Michael,

we have an old Dawn offset Vice in the workshop at work. I'm on night shift tonight so I can have a look, remove the jaws and take some pics and measurements if that helps… Can't be sure it's the same size but that will become obvious from the pics and measurements.

Simon

[eskimo]

1000km and 10 hr trip.


why not send pics to possible repairer of your choice to see if they can repair, and then send vice to them using bus freight

[Michael G]

we have an old Dawn offset Vice in the workshop at work. I'm on night shift tonight so I can have a look, remove the jaws and take some pics and measurements if that helps… Can't be sure it's the same size but that will become obvious from the pics and measurements.

Thanks Simon. The size will be cast into the side of the moving jaw.

Mark is making his own decisions about how to repair - I'm just doing the jaws as I offered to do in post 12. Dawn won't hand out drawings and Tennant Creek is a bit far for me to pop up and measure so I thought I'd ask the question here to save some time as it may be some time before he is able to personally check.
The main issue is the lack of jaws. The broken away piece is probably not critical so could wait. Without jaws though it is a piece of scrap CI.

Michael

[simonl]

This one may not be the same. Looks like a metric equivalent to a 4"!

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/10/31/7711d41f26ba6e06f8b3078e88f2f703.jpg

Of course I forgot to bring some verniers to get a half decent measurement! Ill measure the bolt spacings tomorrow night if thats ok?

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/10/31/4f51beeef4e3a9903496a5f54a6b8c4f.jpg

Simon

[Michael G]

Of course I forgot to bring some verniers to get a half decent measurement! Ill measure the bolt spacings tomorrow night if thats ok?

Thanks Simon, but that one is a different style. Yours has bolts from the outside going into tapped holes in the jaw. This one is an older version where the bolts are counter sunk into the jaw and the tapped hole is in the vice casting.

Michael

[simonl]

Yea. I can still take measurements but I will most likely be pointless.

Simon

[Normanby]

Had a look this morning and took some photos of a 4" vice and a 4.5" vice which may help. The Both are standard but the 4.5" one may have the same jaws as the damaged one. Have not had time to remove a jaw bur the measurements from the 4.5" jaws are:

Length 4.55" ; Height 0.85" ; Thickness 0.5". Fixing hole centres 2.75". Screw head recess 0.46" approx. Screw head recess od to top of jaw 0.26" approx ; to bottom of jaw 0.15" approx. Sorry I am not able to make a drawing to add to the photos. If any more info required I may be able to get tomorrow or even remove a jaw.

Photos of the 4" vice show an interesting ancient repair.

The 4'5" vice is the one with the jaws wide open.
Regards, Normanby

[Michael G]

Normanby, I think you may have the very jaws I need to re-create :2tsup:
Thanks for the info.
Michael

(I love the way people pitch in to help around here)

[Dingo Dog]

I have a pair of those Offset Dawn vice jaws in 150mm. You pay the post bloke, i will send them to you. Will post the pics of them on Sunday 02/11/14. Its late here in the West now.

DD

[Michael G]

Thanks for the thought DD, but the vice is only 4.5" long.
Happy to make some up for Mark.

Michael

[Karl Robbers]

While I appreciate the difficulties of distance and transport, it really is sacrilege to bodgy up a Dawn vice with JB Weld.
A proper repair may cost a few dollars, but has anyone priced a new Dawn vice lately? Surely it would be an investment to repair the vice properly?
I reckon if it were mine, I would build the area up with Nickel electrodes and machine, (or grind and file carefully), then re tap the thread. If there was a serious concern about hard nodules then a tapped steel insert could be placed prior to welding.
I cannot see how JB Weld will withstand the same pounding that the Dawn vice will and any epoxy just adds difficulty to the proper repair at a later stage.

[Grahame Collins]

Do not put any second of glue on cast iron that may be welded- never ever!!!!

I agree with Karl on this. When all is said and done JB Weld is still just an epoxy glue and will have the properties of an epoxy glue, none of which include being able to beat the beajesus out of it.

Not that the vice, however strong is suitable for holding something that is to be subject to that sort of treatment.

I suspect such people who would do that could break an anvil with a rubber hammer anyway.

There is no substitute for repairing a quality tool properly, the first time. Even brazing with a manganese bronze is far better than JB weld which would not be able to be drilled and tapped for the vice jaw screw thread.

For those that attempt cast iron repairs with any sort of glue, please know that the glue just does not burn off when torch or arc based repairs are needed .It finds its way into the very pores of the metal, making said welded repair nigh impossible and imbues the welder with homicidal thoughts towards the instigator of this stupid act. For goodness sake do the repair properly. Better the Pita thing of distance be a one time thing than a second or multiple times.

Grahame

[Karl Robbers]

It finds its way into the very pores of the meta, making said welded repair nigh impossible and imbues the welder with homicidal thoughts towards the instigator of this stupid act.
Grahame
You have them too?
The voices tell me to kill. Slowly and painfully:angfire:

[eskimo]

Do not put any second of glue on cast iron that may be welded- never ever!!!!



So best I get the table of a yet third waldown welded is what your telling me?
Take it to cast iron welders and get the holes filled with cast rods or brazed?

[pipeclay]

If you then intend to weld it at a latter date or have intensions of treating it as you would a vice.

[Grahame Collins]

All of the successful cast iron weld repairs I have ever achieved have been with clean breaks not contaminated with gunk or glue.
Cast iron has an ability to absorb contaminants. Some like oil can be soaked in solvent and also baked out.

Other contaminants like to glue and silastic type materials change as they are heated and remain in some form to foul the weld process.

It seems people choose the welder as a last resort after having tried all the other solutions.This is why welders can be very creative in calling people rude names. A skilled welder of cast iron can permanently weld repair certain types of cast iron but people won't learn that what seems a difficult and expensive weld repair is actually the cheap solution.

Grahame

[Grahame Collins]

So best I get the table of a yet third waldown welded is what your telling me?
Take it to cast iron welders and get the holes filled with cast rods or brazed?

I thought we talking about dawn cast iron vices.For that the best repair is cast iron oxy acetylene fusion welded.Next best is braze welding with Manganese bronze which for the OP would be the best if there is and Oxy welding set in his local area.

Obviously the OA operator will need to be competent.

but OK , for a cast iron Waldown table ,if you want to refurb "

If you want the table to look original cast iron weld it. For grey cast iron the colour match should be spot on after a skim.

For operational purposes Braze or JB weld.I have never used JB weld so I have nil experience on it.


Grahame

[Karl Robbers]

So best I get the table of a yet third waldown welded is what your telling me?
Take it to cast iron welders and get the holes filled with cast rods or brazed?
I take it someone has drilled holes through your table. I tackled this problem for a friend by getting a countersink and chamfering both sides of the hole and then taking a piece of aluminium round bar cut overlength and peened both sides into the chamfer so as to create a rivet of sorts, which was then easily able to be ground and filed flush.
The colour doesn't match, but the holes are filled and the "rivets" can easily be removed at a later stage if a welding repair is done.

[BobL]

I take it someone has drilled holes through your table. I tackled this problem for a friend by getting a countersink and chamfering both sides of the hole and then taking a piece of aluminium round bar cut overlength and peened both sides into the chamfer so as to create a rivet of sorts, which was then easily able to be ground and filed flush.
The colour doesn't match, but the holes are filled and the "rivets" can easily be removed at a later stage if a welding repair is done.

This is good idea for individual holes but is harder to do when there are a bunch of overlapping holes, which is often the case.

I recently completed the bogging up this Tough DP table for the mens shed.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=330713&stc=1

The table has more than 100 holes in it with many overlapping around the 3/4" hole that in the middle of this DP table.
As can bee seen, the edge of central hole at the top of the table was so badly chewed away it would have been a real challenge to fill by welding.
At one point I though about milling a stepped ring out of the table and welding in an annular insert but that may have weakened the table and the condition of the remainder of the drill didn't warrant such an effort.
The amount of damage was also the reason for using bog rather than JB weld which I have used before but as it is quite expensive I usually only use it on smaller fill jobs.

In the end I turned up a 3/4" diameter wooden plug to plug the central hole from underneath. I smeared the plug with vaseline and used a grey two part SS filled automotive bog. After it set I just sanded it all flat and knocked out the plug. Colour match is poor but at least the table is now flat and should not catch any material dragged across it. If they drill any more holes out of it they can refill them. I will take a photo of the finished thing next time I go to the mens shed

Getting the bog to bind to the CI was not easy because of the oily crap that filled up the holes and because many of the holes were more like smooth very shallow concave dimples as would be cut by drill tips. In the end I acid etched the surface of the holes with phosphoric acid and that seemed to work apart from a couple of the smallest ones that I notice have popped out since I did the job. It will be interesting to see how it goes in the long run. I'm sorry I didn't take

I would be interested in hear about ways to properly clean cast iron surfaces. I suspect that ultrasonic cleaning would be good at getting stuff out of metal pores but my US cleaner is not big enough to contain a DP table :)

[Optimark]

[QUOTE=BobL;
I would be interested in hear about ways to properly clean cast iron surfaces. I suspect that ultrasonic cleaning would be good at getting stuff out of metal pores but my US cleaner is not big enough to contain a DP table :)[/QUOTE]

I have not welded cast iron myself, but have watched someone use my oxy/acetylene kit to do just that. Essentially, he followed the below instructions.

I have brazed and used a borrowed pyrometer to get some cast iron to around 500ºC then personally boiled from the emanating heat as I kept the temperature of the cast iron up for about 15-20 minutes to remove as much oil and what have you out of the pieces to be welded. It was a dawn vice as it happened, and it was February under a hot tin roof :U

I lifted this:

PreparationThe most important aspect of welding cast iron is to have the surface clean and free of defects prior to welding, since castings that have been in service are likely to be impregnated with oil or grease. All surface contaminations should be removed with solvents, commercial cleaners, or paint removers. Casting skin should be removed from surfaces to be welded. Blind cracks and pits must be completely dressed out to sound metal by mechanical means such as grinding, chipping, rotary filling or shot blasting. Cracks should be excavated to their full length and depth. Excavate spongy areas and pinholes.
Impregnated oil or other volatile matter can be eliminated by using an oxidizing oxy-acetylene flame to heat the casting or weld groove to approximately 900 F for about 15 minutes and then wire brushing, grinding or rotary filling to remove the residue. This method has the advantage of de-gassing the casting and removing some of the surface graphite as well.


From here. http://www.brazing.com/techguide/procedures/cast_iron.asp

Mick.

[BobL]

Thanks Mick. I might try that with the bog as well.