Hulse planer

[markgray]

So the time has come to start work on getting the planer up and going after a lot of delay. Have been busy working on the bulldog tractor so I can get it going again and move it out of the shed to make room for some other machines. As well as moving and storing the DSG lathe/CVA lathe/Schaublin lathe/ Mitsui Seiki jig borer/Power surface grinder etc but that all a story for another day.
The first phase with the planer has been to remove the table and consider how to bolt it down and level it up. No easy feat when the table weighs around 1500kg and is 13ft x 3 ft (sorry about the mixed imperial/metric speak). Interested in what everyone thinks about the levelling/bolt down options. The planer sits on a 200cm double reinforced section of concrete in the shed. At the moment the plan is to bolt down with long dynabolts ( 8 of them) with shims to level.
Have attached some photos of removing the table. Will add things as we go




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[old1955]

Big job Mark. Will watch with interest.

[pipeclay]

Do you already have the slab?
If you do,are there 3feet?
Are you going to clamp to the feet or are there hold down holes?t
If you are going to clamp onto the existing feet are you also going to place stop blocks at the front and rear of the feet?
If there are hold down holes and you haven't yet got the slab have you considered using threaded rod or long bolts to hold it down?
Have you considered using chemisets rather than loxins?

[markgray]

Do you already have the slab?
If you do,are there 3feet?
Are you going to clamp to the feet or are there hold down holes?t
If you are going to clamp onto the existing feet are you also going to place stop blocks at the front and rear of the feet?
If there are hold down holes and you haven't yet got the slab have you considered using threaded rod or long bolts to hold it down?
Have you considered using chemists rather than logins?


Hi Pipeclay thanks for your reply
There are 4 'legs' on the planer 3 have 2 bolt down holes while the end stand has 3 holes. I did consider using Loxtons with threaded rod and levelling nuts but given the significant side way forces as the table reverses I thought it better to have the table securely bolted down. To put in Dynabolts this will mean accurately marking the holes then moving the whole table as it is not possible to drill the required holes in the slab with the planer in place. Then the planer will need to be moved back into place, the dynabolts inserted and shims used to level the planer. Not an altogether easy job. Levelling the planer will have its own issues and I will have to make up some precision cylinders to sit in the large V ways and measure off these. Some respondants on PM suggested plugging the ends of the V ways then filling them with liquid and using a depth mike to measure the top of the fluid but I will need a reference surface for this.
I am still considering all this as I clean a century of muck off the planer. Under the table were the biggest chips I have ever seen!
Will try to get some more photos once it is clean and show the situation more clearly

[Pete F]

G'day Mark, I'm looking forward to reading how you go on this. I'm especially looking forward to seeing some of the other kit come out of storage, especially the boss's ex-machine, you lucky bugger!

I've got bugger all to offer I'm afraid, machines this size are a world I've only seen from afar. However if it were me I'd chemset the anchors and not dynabolt. Drill for oil and set them good.

[Anorak Bob]

Hi Pipeclay thanks for your reply
There are 4 'legs' on the planer 3 have 2 bolt down holes while the end stand has 3 holes. I did consider using Loxtons with threaded rod and levelling nuts but given the significant side way forces as the table reverses I thought it better to have the table securely bolted down. To put in Dynabolts this will mean accurately marking the holes then moving the whole table as it is not possible to drill the required holes in the slab with the planer in place. Then the planer will need to be moved back into place, the dynabolts inserted and shims used to level the planer. Not an altogether easy job. Levelling the planer will have its own issues and I will have to make up some precision cylinders to sit in the large V ways and measure off these. Some respondants on PM suggested plugging the ends of the V ways then filling them with liquid and using a depth mike to measure the top of the fluid but I will need a reference surface for this.
I am still considering all this as I clean a century of muck off the planer. Under the table were the biggest chips I have ever seen!
Will try to get some more photos once it is clean and show the situation more clearly

Mark,

I can ring the structural engineer, Arthur Dimitriou at Powers Fasteners over here to ask him what he would consider the most appropriate fixing for your application.

An internally threaded loxin type expansive anchor would be considerably less expensive than a similar size internally threaded sleeve type chemical anchor. The one advantage, mechanically, that the chem anchor might have is its length of embedment in the concrete. ( For example, a Hilti HIS M16 chemical anchor sleeve is 170mm in length. ) Internally threaded anchors, whether expansive or chemical, with a separate bolt would be a hell of a lot easier to use than something that requires wriggling though the planer's feet and into a hole you can't see.

Bob.

edit. Pete's younger, nimbler fingers beat me to the draw. I've just expanded on his comments.

[markgray]

Hi Bob,

If your friend didn't mind giving an opinion I would love to hear what he thinks. There is no doubt a threaded rod or similiar whether held by an expandable loxton or chemset type would make leveling now and in the future easier. Would I need to grout under the legs or is it Ok to have it sitting elevated off the concrete with the levelling nuts under the legs?

Grateful for any opinions.

Pete F
The Jig borer is safely stored in a shed at the moment waiting for me to build a precision measuring room in the next couple of years. It had a very dramatic and traumatic journey from Qantas to western NSW. It suffered some damage on unloading and I have had to remove a section for repair. It is still a little raw to discuss but I am taking plenty of photos and the full story will be told later. Don't worry as all the damage is repairable and the machine will function fine. The quality of the tooling that came with this machine is astonishing.
A lession learnt in terms of employing a transport company to move a precision machine. Machtool's efforts to pack and send his CNC lathe is a lession in how it should be done!

Cheers Mark

[Pete F]

Oh that's terrible news Mark, and I'll be interested in hearing the full story, gory as it may be. I feel you pain, I think pretty much any time a machine is moved, it's almost inevitable that there'll be something damaged. Sometimes it's major, sometimes it's minor, but it always seems like there's something.

Yes I saw the tooling cabinets don't worry about that! like I said, you lucky bugger!!!

[pipeclay]

Seeing that you already have the slab you are a little limited to methods of hold down.

I would go with either the largest dyna bolt loxin etc that will fit through your hold down holes.

I would then place 20 to 35 mm square or rectangular plates that fit under the planner feet.

I would use shims to level and then after levelling box up around the feet and pour grout.

If you are looking for .0005"/ft shims would be good enough.

[Anorak Bob]

Hello Mark,

I just spoke with Arthur. He recommended a Powers PSA anchor which is vibration resistant - http://www.powers.com.au/mechanical/product.aspx?ID=1364 .. but there's a but.

The issue you might have is the thickness of the planer's foot. The bolt projection of a PSA M16 anchor is only 27mm. These fixings are removable. If the PSA anchor won't work due to the foot thickness Arthur suggested a chemical anchor would be the best option. He recommended Powers PURE 150 PRO epoxy - http://www.powers.com.au/adhesives/product.aspx?ID=1407 ( $50 cartridge, $80 applicator ). One cartridge might just do 6 holes. This would be used with a threaded stud. There is no need to purchase standard Powers studs. Allthread cut to length would be the best option. Powers do not offer socket type internally threaded chemical anchors. The planer would need to be lowered onto the studs.

Hilti supply internally threaded chemical anchors, have a look at page 71 of this PDF - https://www.hilti.com.au/medias/sys_master/hb1/h1a/9116291989534.pdf?mime=application%2Fpdf&realname=Anchor+Fastening+Technology+Manual+-+Chemical+Anchors.pdf The holes would be drilled, the sockets installed, the machine positioned over the holes, bolts installed, the machine leveled then bolted down and grouted. Easy .:roll:

Hilti's epoxy and applicator are probably more expensive than Powers.

Here's also some information pertaining to machine base grouting - http://www.parchem.com.au/public/pdfs/data-sheets/Application-Guide-for-Epoxy-Grouts.pdf

I hope this is of some assistance.

Bob.

[RayG]

Hi Mark,

Watching with interest, I can see the logic in levelling off the V ways.. once you have those level, you have a reference to follow.

Should I pack up the laser and head north? :D

Ray

[kwijibo99]

G'day Mark,
That's a heavy duty looking piece of machinery, very nice.

Ideally a pre-fabricated steel framework made with all the required bolts in the correct positions which is then set into the foundation as an assembly when it's poured might have been the best option, unfortunately it sounds like that horse has bolted on this occasion (no pun intended).

Rather than relying on two or three large masonry anchor bolts at each mounting point might it be an option to fabricate a plate say 16mm thick by 300mm square with eight anchor points around the edge and two or three lengths of all-thread (as required for the mounting) of the required diameter welded in the centre such that they protrude up enough to anchor and level the table and down say 300mm into your slab which could be grouted in. This would spread the shear loading across a larger number of fasteners and a larger area of the slab.

You could make a couple thin dummy plates without the thread protruding down to facilitate accurate drilling of the holes.

Watching with interest and looking forward to seeing some chips.

Cheers,
Greg.

[Pete F]

Greg, genuine question, do you think there would be much sheer in this application? The reason for my previous comment were my thoughts would be to couple it to the slab as best as is possible under the circumstances, and to do so use a long stud and try to torque the stud up nice and tight. Basically to try to reduce the amount of flexing as anything. It's the reason I wouldn't use a friction anchors (ie Dynabolt). I've had the latter pull when torqued up hard. Also I would be concerned about vibration affecting friction anchors.

Bob is the king of this area, and I'd take the advice given very seriously. However I looked in to chemical setting a couple of years back and was appalled at the prices being asked, then to add salt to the wound, many companies here in Australia will come up with expensive proprietary dispensers to lock you in to their ripoff product.* At the end of the day it's just epoxy resin, albeit some with different properties to others. From what I could see a properly prepared hole and a decent length of stainless stud will not pull out. EVER! I'd personally be reluctant to pay a significant premium for a fancy brand of chemical anchor over and above a decent brand like Ramset etc available form hardware stores. Some chemical anchors are also available in standard cartridges, just the way all should be!

* In contrast to the rort here, I was paying around A$12 per cartridge for chemical anchor purchased in Singapore as manufactured by a respectable company. They also fitted standard cartridge guns. Another ripoff bought to you by Australian companies stitching up the local market.

[kwijibo99]

G'day Pete,
Probably not shear loading as such but I have seen this method used for mounting largish stationary engines where it was not possible to go with a cast in framework.

I'm no civil engineer but I believe the theory in this method is to to spread the effects of shear loading, vibration, shock loading or what ever over a larger number of fasteners and a larger area of a slab of unverified quality in order to reduce the effects of an individual failure.

As you say in the case of Mark's planer, shear or shock loading is probably not such a big factor but vibration might be an issue over time.
With a planer the effects of failure will be less catastrophic than with an engine but if you spend a lot of effort in levelling and aligning a machine such as this one you really want it to hold true so a bit of over-engineering might be worth it in the long term.
Cheers,
Greg.

[markgray]

Hello Mark,

I just spoke with Arthur. He recommended a Powers PSA anchor which is vibration resistant - http://www.powers.com.au/mechanical/product.aspx?ID=1364 .. but there's a but.

The issue you might have is the thickness of the planer's foot. The bolt projection of a PSA M16 anchor is only 27mm. These fixings are removable. If the PSA anchor won't work due to the foot thickness Arthur suggested a chemical anchor would be the best option. He recommended Powers PURE 150 PRO epoxy - http://www.powers.com.au/adhesives/product.aspx?ID=1407 ( $50 cartridge, $80 applicator ). One cartridge might just do 6 holes. This would be used with a threaded stud. There is no need to purchase standard Powers studs. Allthread cut to length would be the best option. Powers do not offer socket type internally threaded chemical anchors. The planer would need to be lowered onto the studs.

Hilti supply internally threaded chemical anchors, have a look at page 71 of this PDF - https://www.hilti.com.au/medias/sys_master/hb1/h1a/9116291989534.pdf?mime=application%2Fpdf&realname=Anchor+Fastening+Technology+Manual+-+Chemical+Anchors.pdf The holes would be drilled, the sockets installed, the machine positioned over the holes, bolts installed, the machine leveled then bolted down and grouted. Easy .:roll:

Hilti's epoxy and applicator are probably more expensive than Powers.

Here's also some information pertaining to machine base grouting - http://www.parchem.com.au/public/pdfs/data-sheets/Application-Guide-for-Epoxy-Grouts.pdf

I hope this is of some assistance.

Bob.

Thanks for all that Bob. Its amazing how levelling and bolting down a machine can become so complicated so quickly!

[Anorak Bob]

Greg, genuine question, do you think there would be much sheer in this application? The reason for my previous comment were my thoughts would be to couple it to the slab as best as is possible under the circumstances, and to do so use a long stud and try to torque the stud up nice and tight. Basically to try to reduce the amount of flexing as anything. It's the reason I wouldn't use a friction anchors (ie Dynabolt). I've had the latter pull when torqued up hard. Also I would be concerned about vibration affecting friction anchors.

Bob is the king of this area, and I'd take the advice given very seriously. However I looked in to chemical setting a couple of years back and was appalled at the prices being asked, then to add salt to the wound, many companies here in Australia will come up with expensive proprietary dispensers to lock you in to their ripoff product.* At the end of the day it's just epoxy resin, albeit some with different properties to others. From what I could see a properly prepared hole and a decent length of stainless stud will not pull out. EVER! I'd personally be reluctant to pay a significant premium for a fancy brand of chemical anchor over and above a decent brand like Ramset etc available form hardware stores. Some chemical anchors are also available in standard cartridges, just the way all should be!

* In contrast to the rort here, I was paying around A$12 per cartridge for chemical anchor purchased in Singapore as manufactured by a respectable company. They also fitted standard cartridge guns. Another ripoff bought to you by Australian companies stitching up the local market.

No crown here Pete. :)

Masonry anchors, their type and probably most importantly, their positioning are features that occur pretty frequently in my work. For some applications and while I'm not a fan of then, Dynabolts will do. The most commonly specified anchor in our office would be the chemical type because frequently they are used to fix balustrading, often glass, to relatively thin concrete slab edges.

Where safety is a concern, the selection and location of masonry anchors is always confirmed by a structural engineer. I speak with Arthur more often than not to seek his advice as to the most appropriate fixing to use. He knows his products. I mentioned the glass capsuled epoxy Powers have in their catalogue, wondering whether they may simplify Mark's task. He said forget it, use the PURE 150.

BT

[Anorak Bob]

Might be getting carried away a bit.:rolleyes:

I just had a look at the planer I photographed at the Deutsches Museum a while back. The machine is used for demonstrations. The fixings don't look massive, one adjustment bolt for levelling, one as a hold down.

328233



More here - http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=142792&p=1392522#post1392522

BT

[pipeclay]

It is after all a smaller planner, don't make it to complicated for yourself.

[Michael G]

Given that gravity will probably do a reasonable job of keeping the planer on the ground, would you be better off just blocking up the feet so that they can not move along?

Michael

[markgray]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts.

328254

Unfortunately the holes in the feet lie under the outer curved section of the legs and you can't drill the holes in situ. They will need to be marked and the planer moved out of the way to be drilled. If I then 'glue' the hold down bolts in place the planer would need to be lifted onto the bolts. Even with the table off the planer still weighs 3.5 tonnes so this positioning would be very difficult.
I like gregs idea of placing an oversize plate under the legs that the hold down bolts could be 'screwed' into and the plate could then be bolted to the concrete with any number of bolts. The concrete could be drilled and the hold down fixtures placed without having to move the planer. The plates would be in the order of 42"x 18"x 1" and with the machine sitting on them they would have a large surface area in contact with the concrete which would make them unlikely to move. Levelling would be done with shims of which I have a large collection of stainless steel shims pieces 6"x6" ranging from a 1/4" to couple thou. As long as the plate didn't extend too far from the edge of the legs so that it becomes a tripping hazard I could see this working. It might even be possible to weld some strips (say 1") to the plate to act as stops to further prevent the machine from moving forward or back.
Given the table weighs about 1 1/2 tonnes plus whatever is on it I could see the whole machine moving a bit if it was not securely bolted down. I can also see that the levelling procedure may need to be repeated at intervals in the future as it seems the slab may be on the 'thin'side.
Any thoughts gratefully accepted.

Mark

[Pete F]

Mark can you drill the holes, no particular precision required, position the machine over the drilled holes, then squirt the epoxy in, followed by the stud, then put a washer/nut on the stud just to locate it. Once the epoxy has gone off you can then torque the nut down properly. Of course to remove you'd have to lift it up over the studs, but likely less to be an issue than positioning. I can't recall the specs off the top of my head (Bob no doubt knows them all) but to give you an idea, I seem to recall an 8 mm stud requires a 10 mm hole. I'm not suggesting you use 8 mm stud, but I've used that in the past and 10 mm just comes to mind. The point being that you can wriggle a stud in at a bit of an angle.

I did something similar to the above, but in my case the plates were there simply to locate the studs accurately.

[markgray]

Have been doing some work on the planer. Cleaned away the huge chips and general debris on the bedways. Some wear is evident but generally seems pretty good. Took a bit of work to mark the holes, then move the planer, drill the holes and then move the planer back. Certainly got some practice sharpening masonary drill bits. I really need to make some skates like Richard!
Eventually decided to use adhesive to glue in the threaded studs as it was very difficult to drill the holes accurately enough for placing the Dynabolts.






334295334296334297334298

[markgray]

Have been leveling the planer. I have a large number of stainless steel squares that I use as shims. They range in thickness from about 0.002" to about 0.250". I think they were used as spacers in transformers.
This is the set up I have used which seems to work reasonably well. Across the bed seems good now (within 0.001"/Ft) but length ways it has a slight tilt from one end to the other. I am assuming that given the way a planer works this should not really be a problem and is not worth chasing. Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Thanks

Mark






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[RayG]

Hi Mark,

Looking good, I'd think that as long as the ways were straight and parallel with each other, a slight tilt lengthwise wouldn't be a problem.

Was there much wear in the ways?

Ray

[markgray]

Hi Mark,

Looking good, I'd think that as long as the ways were straight and parallel with each other, a slight tilt lengthwise wouldn't be a problem.

Was there much wear in the ways?

Ray


There definitely is some wear but it is not extreme (especially for a 100yr+ machine). I am not sure how precise planers were even new but once it is back together I will do some cuts and see how accurate they turn out. I think it will not be too bad but if you need high precision ( like Ewens lathe bed) then you can move onto power scraping or slideway grinding after that. I had a chance to play with some slideway grinders recently but I don't have the owners permission to really discuss or show any pictures yet. He was worried about those nosey OH&S types who might troll obscure metalwork forums !! I plan to go back for a few days hopefully and follow a project from setup to finish grinding. He was just starting an enormous lathe bed which he thought would take 3 weeks to complete!! He was very surprised anyone was interested as he said I was the first person in 30 years who had ever shown up and displayed any interest in the art of slideway grinding. He thought that once his last grinder hand retires ( they were all 60+ ) that would be the end of the business. When I go back hopefully I can talk him into me being able to photogragh/video some of it and put it on the forum.

Mark

[RayG]

Hi Mark,

I think that Phil & Marco know a bit about slideway grinding.. There is a thread where a group went down for a demo.. http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=157567&p=1541924#post1541924

The HP Laser can do a straighness of travel measurement. Here is a video we did on the HM52 X axis http://vimeo.com/60152780 That might be handy for measuring where to scrape.

Ray

[BaronJ]

Hello Mark,


Hi Pipeclay thanks for your reply
There are 4 'legs' on the planer 3 have 2 bolt down holes while the end stand has 3 holes. I did consider using Loxtons with threaded rod and levelling nuts but given the significant side way forces as the table reverses I thought it better to have the table securely bolted down.

By gum, that is some big iron there. :)
Having seen a planer in action I would have thought that the shear loads along the table to be fairly low. In use the table decelerates for quite some time before stopping and then reversing. Now whether this is typical in normal use, I don't know. The one I was watching some years ago only had about half the table length occupied but the workpiece only just cleared the tool post columns. I'm sure that I've seen some formula on the net for calculating loading stresses which might help. Anyway wouldn't the bolt hole size be a guide ?.

My thoughts on leveling are to get it as level as possible so that there is minimum unbalanced load in one direction and that the tool post is truly vertical.

Just my 2p's worth. Watching with great interest. :):):)

[markgray]

[QUOTE=RayG;1829445]Hi Mark,

I think that Phil & Marco know a bit about slideway grinding.. There is a thread where a group went down for a demo.. http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=157567&p=1541924#post1541924

Hi Ray,


I knew Phil and Marco were still involved in machine reconditioning. It would be interesting to see how that side of the business is going.
The place I visited said work was rapidly drying up. They tried to increase there workload by buying good used CNC machines themselves and reconditioning them back to new. They found though that by the time they factored in moving machines,pulling them down, returning to original specs, often replacing the control system with something newer and then advertising them and holding them for sale they were barely breaking even and sometimes lost money. As a sign of the times they have taken on an agency for selling large industrial 3D printers and this is the direction they are heading. They also had then usual collection of stories about beautiful but obsolete machines being scrapped ( think SIP jig borers and the like). I don't think they saw a great future for slideway grinding services. Also all there machinery was probably 1960s era and definitely not workcover friendly.

Mark

[.RC.]

Also all there machinery was probably 1960s era and definitely not workcover friendly.

Mark

Are they all Churchill grinders?

Like this model VB one.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYHSqIPwFRU

The bigger VBA models have two heads and are much bigger...

I know I would like a 6ft table model...


There is still a bit of competition in Sydney for slideway grinding..

There is CNC engineering and I have used MTA Support... Plus in the past John Heine advertised slideway grinding.. There may be others as well...

[markgray]

Are they all Churchill grinders?

Like this model VB one.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYHSqIPwFRU

The bigger VBA models have two heads and are much bigger...

I know I would like a 6ft table model...


There is still a bit of competition in Sydney for slideway grinding..

There is CNC engineering and I have used MTA Support... Plus in the past John Heine advertised slideway grinding.. There may be others as well...


Hi Richard,

Yep they have Churchills.
The owner said as far as he knew there were only 3 businesses left offering slideway grinding services in Sydney. He felt that the large amount of second hand machines in pretty good condition coming onto the market in recent years had really affected the number of machines that were brought in for reconditioning. Easier to update to a good second hand machine rather than recondition your older machine. Unfortunately he also said that if they closed up there machines would almost certainly be sold to Chinese or Indian companies who would ship them home!!! That was very depressing.
I told him if he ever hears of one coming up for sale to let me know. If I don't want it I will PM you. These machines are massive (5m bed) and would weigh ?10tonne plus and need a huge amount of room. A 6 foot bed would be nice but not sure how many of those would even be in Australia. It would be great if someone on the forum snagged one of those. The owner also told me they reconditioned a small Cholchester lathe for a hobby enthusiast in recent years for a cost of $7000. So I can see why it is easier to just get another machine.

Mark

[.RC.]

Ones that size probably closer to twenty tonnes... Then you have a massive foundation on top of that... You do not want the machine flexing when you put a ten tonne casting on the bed and trying to get it flat...


Here are a couple of flyers..

334536 334537

[markgray]

Ones that size probably closer to twenty tonnes... Then you have a massive foundation on top of that... You do not want the machine flexing when you put a ten tonne casting on the bed and trying to get it flat...


Here are a couple of flyers..

334536 334537



Hi Richard,
Are those pictures out of a Churchill book? I have two other machines in the restoration lineup and it would be interesting if there are any details about them in the same publication. One is a Churchill ?OSB surface grinder. Only has a 18x8 mag chuck but it is built like a brick house. Must weigh close to 4 tonnes. The other is a lovely Churchill cylindrical grinder. Don't have any model information but again very solidly built. If you have anything on them that would be great.

Thanks again

Mark

[.RC.]

attached churchill catalogues in pdf

[markgray]

attached churchill catalogues in pdf




Thanks a lot Richard,
I did not know they had such a variety of grinders in their product line. I am not sure what year that catalogue is from but I would think the OSB surface grinder and the OH cylindrical grinder I have are a bit earlier than the models shown here.
All of their products are certainly heavy weights.


Mark

[.RC.]

The BSA Churchill catalogue would be from the 60's when Churchill were part of a much larger group of companies...

The earlier catalogue probably the fifties...

[markgray]

So the bolt down anchors are all glued in place and the planer has been leveled with shims and now it is time to grout the legs.

A few questions

1. Do you grout with the shims in place. The literature suggests they are best removed. If so do you grout a section first then remove the shims then grout the rest?

2. Is the a budget? grout. Have been looking at the Parchem conbextra grout Bob linked me to which sounds like the go but 14L of base and hardener come to around $400. Is there a cheaper alternative or is this something that needs to be properly the first time and just suck up the cost?

Thanks

Mark

[pipeclay]

I would leave the shims in place.make a dam around your feet mix the grout to a slurry consistency.
Wouldn't be paying to much for grout.

[RayG]

Hi Mark,

Use a non shrinking grout, like http://www.bunnings.com.au/dunlop-20kg-construction-grout_p6650143 $25 for 20kg
Ray

[Steamwhisperer]

Hi Mark,
All our steam engines are grouted with the shims/wedges still in place.

Phil

[markgray]

Thanks guys. Those suggestions make it a lot easier and cheaper.

Mark

[markgray]

Quick update.
The machine is leveled, bolted down and grouted.
Ran it for the first time few nights ago. Ran well but gears were very noisy especially going forward so decided to investigate. At some stage it has had a new bull gear made and the 2 driving pinon gears look altered. Interestingly the large driving gear ( 21 inch diameter) has 20 degree pressure angle which I assume would have been unlikely on the original. The 2 pinon gears look like someone has altered them with an angle grinder to make the teeth mesh with the new large gear. So decision has been made to made 2 new gears. They are 3DP, 14 teeth, 20 degree PA gears with OD more than 5 inches and about 3 inches thick. I have a 6 inch piece of round EN36A so will make them from this.
Will get some photos as I go and post them.

Cheers

Mark

[markgray]

Wet day today so time to get some more work done on the planer. Stuart my friend and mentor came over for a test fit of some plastic gears so I thought time for an update. Last post 3 months ago I ran the planer for the first time and discovered two driving pinion gears were noisy so took them off to investigate. After much investigation it looks like these gears where made at some time but fairly poorly. They look like they were made on a shaper and finished with a grinder or such like and of soft steel so the teeth had become moderately bent.
So the decision was made to replace them. These are fairly large gears at about 5 inch diameter, 3 inches thick and about 3DP but how hard can it be.

So I decided I should document our 2 steps forward 1 step back gear making adventure. At least it gives me a chance to play with some cool old school tools.

When we initially took the gears off we needed to decide what exactly they were and what exactly we needed to make.

Needed the type of gear,number of teeth,pressure angle,clearance and backlash required. This would seem easy when you have the gear you are replacing but they were somewhat worn and misshapen.
First was the type of gear. Given it is off a 100 year old English machine its unlikely to be metric. But is it DP or something else. I have a set of gear guages and it was close to 3DP and 20 degree PA but not quite.
The basic equation for this is number of teeth plus 2 divided by the outside diameter in inches equals the Diametrical pitch. As we had the 2 pinion gears and the large driven gear this seems easy.

Firstly we checked the small gears. Measured with the calipers and got readings around 5.072-5.086 depending on were they were measured. So 16 (14 teeth plus 2) divided by av 5.079 = 3.15DP . So close to 3 but not quite. Now time to measure the big gear. Out with the 50 inch Benson calipers and got an OD of 20.34 inches. Tried a Pi tape and this came out at 20.43 inches. This gave us 64 (62 teeth plus 2) divided by 20.34 = 3.14DP or 64 divided by 20.43 = 3.13DP. Initially I thought the slight difference was just because the gears were a bit worn/damaged. We decided to check a bit further. Out with the Machinerys handbook and Keurens over the wire tables. Found out what the tooth dimensions for a 3 DP 14 tooth gear was and set the gear tooth verniers to that dimension. Again close but not quite. Then I got out the gear wires for a 3DP gear and checked the diameter and no surprise but the 3 gears all measured too small.

Stuart being older and wiser by this stage knew what was going on but I was at a loss. He states it must be circular pitch gear. Now I had vaguely heard of circular pitch gears so out comes the machinery handbook again and I do some reading. Seems like in years gone by it was not all that uncommon especially in larger gears. The conversion from DP is CP = 3.14/DP which comes out very nicely at 1 inch circular pitch. The mystery was solved. Just to be sure I have a number of gear cutters from a gear planer so we got out the cutters for 3DP 20 degree PA and 1inch CP 20 degree PA and sure enough the CP cutter fitted perfectly.

Thats enough for one post. Will continue tomorrow. Some photos from today. These are not the actual measurements just some quick mockups at the end of the day to show you some of what I have discussed.

Cheers Mark
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[RayG]

I'm going to have a wild guess that it's close to 3.14159 DP :) Or did I miss something obvious.

Ray

[markgray]

I'm going to have a wild guess that it's close to 3.14159 DP :) Or did I miss something obvious.

Ray

Pi DP to you and me Ray😉

actually its its been interesting going through the process of checking and reverse engineering a big old gear. Theoretical and practical considerations don't always mesh perfectly (excuse the pun). Just reinforces the old adage of measure twice ( or in my case many times) and cut once.

[.RC.]

Did you measure everything to ten millionths? ;)

[.RC.]

I could probably using gearotic make up the gear and output to stl code and Pete could make a plastic one.. You could then make a form cutter from that plastic gear...

[Cueball]

G'day Mark,

Looking at your photos of the gears, it is a good thing you are making some correct pinion gears as the mesh of the previous gears seems to have been fairly poor and has caused damage to the tips of the bull gear teeth (from what appears in the photos). Hopefully the damage is not too severe for the new gears to mesh really well with a mildly fettled bull gear.

Good process of investigation - I cannot remember learning about Circular Pitch in my training, though to be honest gear manufacture has never been part of my working life, so who knows if I have simply forgotten. I will have to hit my old books to see whether the memory has failed.

By what means are you planning to create the new pinion gears ( not knowing what equipment you have for such a task)?

Thanks for sharing about your journey to planing. Will be following with interest.

Quentin

[.RC.]

Gearotic spat this at me..dimensions in mm

Type: Round Gear
Name: Spur
SubType: Spur
DP: 3.14
Module: 8.09
Tooth Count: 14
Press. Ang: 20.0
Addendum: 8.0851
Dedendum: 10.1063
Outside Diam: 129.3612
Outside Radius: 64.6806
Pitch Diam: 113.1911
Base Diam: 106.3648
Root Radius: 46.4892
Face 75.0000

[RayG]

Interesting bit of detective work, and another snippet to add to the "what did you learn today" collection.

I've been looking at videos of planers, amazing machines, a good companion machine to the slideway grinder. :)

Ray