Put your hand up who gives credit were credit is due??

[nz_carver]

Not been posting but watching on here on Facebook YouTube and other woodturning events.

It seems that there are a lot of people that use other people's idears with out giveing credit or a heads up were they got there idear or were or who they had seen it from.

The woodturning world and the big players in it is not as big as one may think and sometimes it's to clear if the idear a person is useing is not these.

There are a number of turners who if you watch them you can see by the things the do and the way they turn its can be clear to see who there teacher was.

There is a saying
you need to know we're you have been to know were your going.

Its not that hard to say I picked this tip up from.

So who here gives credit?

[george mavridis]

You make a valid argument but sometimes you just forget where you got it from or use a combination of ideas and/or techniques.

[fubar]

Nope cash upfront or on delivery:D

[wheelinround]

Always to try to if possible.

Its a shame that the ones at the top do not often do the same thing:; all to often I have heard it said "I am self taught" ............nor do they when stealing lesser known peoples ideas and style tho.


Edited to add further comment.

Its sort of hard I guess to give credit to all - as turning has been around for so long and ideas have come from so far back in history, design elements, styles, demands of customers, demands of craftsmen.
As to turning methods this also stems from periods in history as much as what works for one person doesn't work for another as we have often seen here on the forum and elsewhere.
What one turner uses a single tool to perform a cut another may have a variety of tools to do the same job.

My first lessons in turning were seeing spindles turned by a pro for a high chair dad made i had to sand them they were so damn rough cut I still recall the hours sanding at age 7. My next lesson was in high school Mr Woods who as a tradesman woodworker (he spread across many wood trades) teaching me through years 7 to 10 still hold strong he gave time and knowledge to those willing to learn as well as allow to put in their own ideas.

[Woodturnerjosh]

You do see it quite a bit and it's one thing to try and emulate the design of one of the major players or innovators as a technical exercise, and another thing entirely to pass it off as your own.
Those of us that have been interested in the "wood art" genre for a while can probably pick up the copies and I have no problem when someone does it as an exercise and is upfront about the source of their idea but when they try and pass it off as their original thought, I find that disrespectful.
When you've completed something based on someone else's work and you can't remember who, I think you should say that when you post it online.

[BobL]

Lack of credit recognition for worthy ideas is sadly just one aspect of the general way things seem to have gone in the last decade or so.
I think there was more acknowledgment of sources back when I first joined the forum some 8 years ago.
Despite concerted efforts by some the same thing happens at schools and other educational institutions.
These days good ideas don't seem to be worth much, as everything seems to rotate around clever marketing, conniving lawyers, and bulk flogging of crap to the unsuspecting public.

Interestingly Daniel Pink thinks that the next "economic" revolution will be one that involves "good ideas", as everything routine in the service, technical and creative sense will be outsourced to computers or the third world.

But unless good ideas are easily legally protected and rewarded, nothing will change.

[pommyphil]

Standing on the shoulders of giants !

The craft has been evolving for millennia (spelling ?) Many gifted turners contributed to our tools and designs, do we need a full list with everything ?

Phil

[Paul39]

I came to wood turning the hard way through the back door. I have never had any instruction and did not read about or go to any demonstrations for the first 6 months or so.

I had a 7 X 12 inch Chinese metal lathe and a sharpened screw driver and bench chisel to start.

I managed to make a few things and got hooked.

I experiment with many tools and techniques and find things that work and things that don't.

Many times I work out something by trial and error and then read about the exact same thing here or in a book by a Famous Turner.

It tickles me to see something I have worked out by myself in a book by Richard Raffan.

Rather than copying, sometimes great minds run in the same ditch.

Who was the first person to make a natural edge bowl? To use a gouge rather than a scraper to make a bowl? Peter Child, in the UK, I think. Maybe others, in other places, at about the same time.

All of my early bowls were shaped curving up to the rim, with the edge a bit smaller than the outside diameter. I saw a bowl somewhere where the top flared out rather than in. So I made a few like that. Is that a copy that I should credit to someone? Who made the first bowl that flared out to the rim?

Rude Osolnik found a pile of birch plywood cabinet doors discarded at Berea College, he went home and got his truck and filled it. He glued them up and made all sorts of things. Some day I will glue up plywood and do the same thing. I would not call what I will make copies, because the shape I make will come about while I am turning.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Osolnik+laminated+bowls&biw=1024&bih=615&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=KplCVJfyK8z3yQTYvIHQCA&ved=0CB0QsAQ

I will agree that someone who gets a photograph of a segmented bowl and carefully measures and makes the segments from the same timber, in the same pattern, with the same shape is a copy, and should be credited. Why would one bother.

[Woodturnerjosh]

I can't speak for others but my comment was not meant to relate to bowl shapes or materials. It is highly unlikely that someone will turn a bowl or vessel in a shape that hasn't already been done in the last few thousand years. You can sort of say the same about materials but it's not quite the same

But when it comes to embellishment and surface treatment some consideration and respect to your source of inspiration should be given (only in the case of blatant copies)
In recent times I've seen work that was obviously copied off Jack De Vos, Binh Pho and Jacques Vesery with no credit given. Now don't get me wrong, I think copying techniques and ideas of other artists is a great way to add more skills to your repertoire but you have to use those things in your own way if you're presenting them as your original work. Just to clarify what I'm referring to in the case of the work inspired by Binh Pho, the copy used the overall shape, style of carving, airbrushing, timber appearance and even the dragonfly motifs that were present in a lot (if not all) of Binh's work at the time.

I'm sorry if my point isn't getting across properly as this is not the easiest thing to clarify (and it's even harder when I'm typing one handed with my dominant hand in plaster... long story :roll:)

Cheers
Josh

[Paul39]

Josh,

After reading the below, it is a rant going off on a tangent, but I think explains a bit of why a student will copy or produce work like the master.

Out of curiosity I Googled Binh Pho images and had a look and then Binh Pho copies. One which came up was this lady from UK who had studied with Binh Pho, made pieces in collaboration with him and then continued on her own.

See: http://www.joeyrichardson.com/newpage/gallerycollaborations.html

So her stuff is likely to resemble Binh Pho's

I'm a retired commercial photographer so I am somewhat familiar with art photography.

The route to Famous Photographer, fame and big money seems to be: study at Famous Art School under Famous Art Photographers, Take photos and go to Workshops taught by Famous Photographers at exotic locations. Exhibit widely everywhere you can, restaurants, banks, art shows, local galleries, teach workshops, exhibit at higher priced galleries until you are accepted at Famous Expensive Galleries in NY & Los Angeles. You are now a Famous Photographer and will likely die broke and owing money.

Along the way Nikon, or Canon, or Epson may give you some money if you appear in ads using their product.

25 years after you die you will be discovered and your original prints will sell for thousands of dollars and the gallery will prosper.

You may fill in artist, turner, cabinet maker, instrument maker, etc. after Famous above.

Is a bowl made by me worth more because I have studied under Ricard Raffan, turned on a Vicmarc lathe, using a Sorby Cryo tool, sharpened on a Tormek grinder? I don't think so. My bowl should be judged on its own merits.

[Woodturnerjosh]

Her work was not the work I was referring to (it was some random thing on a forum) and having a degree in visual art with many friends being artists I'm aware of the way the system works.

Another way of putting is that if you copy someones work (I don't mean one element, I mean copy) and someone compliments you on the design, originality, etc, then a good person should say "I got this idea, or copied this from X"

Unfortunately the larger art world is full of people that take the credit for other peoples work and ideas (like Jeff Koons) and that is just the way the business works. When I got into the whole woodturning/wood art scene it was not like that.

I get the feeling we are talking about the subject from different points and it is therefore unlikely we will agree. :U

[nz_carver]

I'll clear it up a little more

There is a number of turners who post in here or on Facebook or YouTube
who uses other people's idears to a point were it's clear to see.

Some make a living some do it as a hobby.
It gets me when I see the ones who do it for a living useing other people's idears and not given credit to the person who's idear it was.

if you made a living and somone copyed your idear and didn't give you credit it may be safe to say that you might not be to happy???

Maybe be I have had dealing with what I call Gentlemen woodturners who will stop and say
this is my idear but I got it off.

[Mobyturns]

Yes I do where it is warranted. In some instances it becomes impossible to determine who originated an idea, technique or style - wood turned hats comes to mind.

This topic always generates considerable discussion and often for the wrong reasons. In the American Association of Woodturner's journal Jerry Bennett had an excellent article on copying etc - "It Is Mine, Mine, Mine!" Vol 28 No. 2 pages 35–41, well worth reading.

It is considered polite and the moral thing to do to acknowledge the inspiration for a work and one should do so however there must be something unique or original about the prior artist’s work/s and or style to warrant such acknowledgement. The whole argument about copying & acknowledgement becomes bogged down in legal issues such as copyright, moral rights, trade marks, patents etc.

Ideas, concepts and techniques can not be protected by copyright but can be protected at significant cost through other legal means and not all copying infringes another's rights. Jerry points out "the issue can become a bit more complicated if we think of our work as unique or original, when it actually is not." It also becomes complicated when we start to acknowledge derivative works - a work that uses another's work, style, or technique and takes it further than the prior artist or in another direction. In wood turning there is little that is not derived from past works or artists however there are unique designs or embellishments applied to forms that make them very unique & original and able to be protected by copyright.

We all start out learning by copying then progress to derivative works and perhaps to original work or styles of our own. The example of Binh Pho & Joey Richardson is a good one as Joey studied with Binh. Both weave a story into their work which makes each of their works quite unique and differentiates their work even though the techniques may be substantially the same and Joey’s work is considered a derivative of Binh’s work.

I have posted images of my linear laminated designs for small bowls, spin tops and goblets (http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=189232) which have been inspired by quite a few artists particularly Jim McPhail, Eli Avisera and Jack Cox however neither have produced the same patterns for the base blanks to my knowledge. I have deliberately stayed away from their’s and others patterns and designs so I believe I am producing a derivative work that uses common construction techniques that are not unique to either artist, nor am I copying another’s design. The forms and elements of my designs however are not unique, but in combination become my recognized style sufficiently so to be recognized in the AAW journal Vol 27 No.4 page 27 where I acknowledge several inspirations including club turner Jack Wooderson who originally sparked my imagination with his work.

Then there are many blatant examples of copying where the intent is to copy and to sell and even against an artists original work/s in their established markets. Hard to stop and copyright is no protection unless you are prepared to defend it. Google "Dale Chihuly copyright infringement" for an example of such (alleged) infringement.

[chuck1]

Who was the first person to turn a bead and a hollow with fillets in between them? Makes it hard to say where the idea came from?! Sometimes!
With most balusters I have to copy, some are so old who knows who turned and designed it.
I give credit to my Tafe Teacher George Hatfield for the skills and knowledge that was taught to me, and I guess alot of my turning leans towards period turnings. So alot of credits go to 16th 17th 18th century turners!

[Christos]

From my perspective I make things because I have a desire to do so. This desire does not always have a creative side that can be matched. So the inspiration of making something has to come from somewhere.

At least two things come to mind straight away and both from this forum. After making each of them I posted the link to the original that had inspired me. The items that I eventually created were a little different to the ones that had taken my fancy but it was these items that got me off my backside to get to creating. And by me posting serves two purposes the one that had already been mention, giving credit and the second one to inspire someone else.

I think it would be a very boring world if ideas are not shared.

[NeilS]

I acknowledge Horace Leadbeatter, Bruce Leadbeatter's father as an inspiration. I grew up in the same town (Alstonville, NSW) as the Leadbeaters and I spent many hours in around Horries' workshop (in the old butter factory there) when I was a child, not that I ever called him anything else other than Mr Leadbeatter.

Horace developed various lathes in the 1940s, including one with gears, and his son Bruce followed on in that tradition inventing his own lathe, the Leady.

I turned my first item 55 years ago in Alstonville on a variation of Horace's treadle lathe design.

When it comes to form design, I acknowledge my influence from ceramic forms. I 'threw' pottery on the wheel for a number of years and also taught it. My teachers were Col Levy (http://www.carters.com.au/index.cfm/index/152-levy-colin-ceramics/), Peter Rushforth (http://www.carters.com.au/index.cfm/index/2407-rushforth-peter-ceramics/) and Carl McConnell (http://www.carters.com.au/index.cfm/index/5180-mcconnell-phillip-ceramics/). All three had either studied in Japan or were influenced by the Japanese ceramic tradition, as well as Bernard Leach and Shoji Hamada who were the most influential in introducing the Japanese ceramic aesthetic to the West. Japanese ceramic, along with my many years of drawing natural forms, are the major influences on my woodturned forms. So, I should also acknowledge nature.

I admire the simple eloquent forms of Robin Wood (http://www.robin-wood.co.uk/product-category/bowls-plates/), the English pole turner, and the splendid multi-axis pieces of Brendan Stemp (http://www.brendanstemp.com.au/), but, as far as I know, none of my work imitates theirs. But should it, I gratefully acknowledge their influence and apologise if my execution has not done them justice

[clear out]

Niel,
Small world! my high school teacher in metalwork was Col Levy.
He had a kiln behind the workshop/classroom at Chatswood High back in the early 60s.
I was exposed to the McMeekin pottery whilst running the IA lab at UNSW.
I also worked with Bruce and then his son at what was Sydney teachers college then USyd.
Did you hear the one about the trainload of the Indian made Leadys that were shipped open to the elements and ended up full of rainwater!
I also worked at Ballina slipway and engineering in the 70s just down the road from Alstonville.
Richard Raffan took slides of stuff I did as a student at Canberra Fool of Farts the early 80s and used them in his lectures. Later worked with Gurgilo on the new big house for 88.
My main teacher then was Don Lee from the ACT then Mogo who flew under the radar and loved to play the dummy with the 'experts' and then haul em in for a laugh.
You meet a lot of people on your trip, Mike Hosaluk and Garry Knox Bennett I'll never forget for their generousity and inspiration.
H.

[NeilS]

Yes, Clear Out, it is a small and fascinating world we are lucky enough to journey through.

And, it is good to be reminded how privileged we have been here in Australia to have so many inspirational 'pioneers' in the various crafts to whom we need to give credit.

Neil

PS - I am very familiar with the location of the Ballina Slipway. It is also where some of my ancestors landed to make there way up to Duck Creek Mountain (as Alstonville was called then) where they selected portions of the rain forest (The Big Scrub) to clear for farming. I cringe to think of all the red cedar and other wonderful rainforest trees they felled to grow grass!

[Willy Nelson]

Gentlemen, if I may, I would like to add my 2 cents

I was largely self taught, in isolation for the first few years until I moved to WA and joined a club. I actually thought I was a reasonable turner, that is until I joined a club and saw other peoples work.

We had three professional turners in the club at the time Gordon Ward, Rob Jones and Jack De Vos.
The club offered courses and for years, I had admired the embellished platters of Rob Jones. I finally thought I had the skills to do a course and turn one of his platters. The course was excellent, Rob was an accomplished turner, instructor and a lovely fellow, for a pom.
My platter was taken to the club for show and tell and was mistakenly thought to one of Rob Jone's platters. I was very pleased to have my work recognised as Robs
Anyhoo, that was the only platter like it I have turned. It is a Rob Jones Platter.

What I did was use the skills he taught me, and hopefully the form I have learnt from others to develope my own styles, shapes and forms. I still regularly display this platter, but always state it is a Rob Jones platter.

Similarly, I regularly write for Australian Wood review, In my Bio, I gave credit to the wood workers who have influenced me the greatest, those being the former named turners plus others such as John Scarfe and Kevin Luff

I did a one course with Neil Scobie carving a leaf (went home that night physically and mentally exhausted) and displayed that at the club as a Neil Scobie inspired item. I will use these new found skills on my own shapes and bowls.

I think as a self proclaimed semi professional / hobbyist (itf there is such a thing) turner, that the works of other people are very obvious and when copied, I guess I think a little less of those people who have copied them and claim them as there own.
My thoughts, hope I haven't upset anyone
Cheers

Willy
jarrahland

[Mobyturns]

Gentlemen, if I may, I would like to add my 2 cents

I was largely self taught, in isolation for the first few years until I moved to WA and joined a club. I actually thought I was a reasonable turner, that is until I joined a club and saw other peoples work.

We had three professional turners in the club at the time Gordon Ward, Rob Jones and Jack De Vos.
The club offered courses and for years, I had admired the embellished platters of Rob Jones. I finally thought I had the skills to do a course and turn one of his platters. The course was excellent, Rob was an accomplished turner, instructor and a lovely fellow, for a pom.
My platter was taken to the club for show and tell and was mistakenly thought to one of Rob Jone's platters. I was very pleased to have my work recognised as Robs
Anyhoo, that was the only platter like it I have turned. It is a Rob Jones Platter.

What I did was use the skills he taught me, and hopefully the form I have learnt from others to develope my own styles, shapes and forms. I still regularly display this platter, but always state it is a Rob Jones platter.

Similarly, I regularly write for Australian Wood review, In my Bio, I gave credit to the wood workers who have influenced me the greatest, those being the former named turners plus others such as John Scarfe and Kevin Luff

I did a one course with Neil Scobie carving a leaf (went home that night physically and mentally exhausted) and displayed that at the club as a Neil Scobie inspired item. I will use these new found skills on my own shapes and bowls.

I think as a self proclaimed semi professional / hobbyist (itf there is such a thing) turner, that the works of other people are very obvious and when copied, I guess I think a little less of those people who have copied them and claim them as there own.
My thoughts, hope I haven't upset anyone
Cheers

Willy
jarrahland

Willy,

You have been most fortunate to have access to some of the best turners this country has. Can't complain about any course with Neil Scobie and to have had access to turners like Jack, & Gordon on a regular basis makes me jealous. I have thoroughly enjoyed attending a couple of Neil's classes in Innisfail FNQ and his demos at Turnfest along with Jacks there too. Gordon was a huge inspiration to me at Proserpine though I most likely will never do any of his highly embellished works but a little bit of his spirit lives on in most of us that were fortunate to enjoy his company.

That Kevin Luff character is a ratbag and tell him I said so. :U I would love to see him in action at the lathe as I never have seen him turn however I have enjoyed his company for many years at Turnfest.

I have to agree with you - all wood turners should get out of their sheds more often and go to events like DUTA, Proserpine, SATurn and the many others and to attend clubs more often. They will open your eyes to many styles of turning both good & not so perfect but will certainly widen your knowledge and range of skills.

Copying will always be there, we all learn design and makers skill by copying, but at some point in time you must make a range of work that is yours. What we must be mindful of though is that copying does not necessarily apply to techniques and styles and that many profiles or shapes are really public domain in that they are in common use and not unique. Certainly there are designs, styles and techniques that are very recognizable as a particular turners style and some of those may be very unique and original. There is nothing wrong with copying to learn but it is important to acknowledge those who have pioneered techniques or styles; have influenced us and it is most important to seek their permission when reproducing their designs. Morally and ethically it is very inappropriate to enter their designs into competitions or to sell reproductions of their designs.

[dogcatcher]

I know which forum and thread this discussion was started over, I a part of that discussion. First there were accusations being made that there was no credit given to the original artist. Even though nobody saw the application, it was only assumed that he did not give credit for the design. The turner had taken a class from the original designer, and entered his piece in a local show which was open to all kinds of woodworking from woodturning to furniture. A writer from AAW saw the results and reported them in the AW magazine.

This is getting ridiculous, with all of the accusations possible, some of the newer turners will become afraid to post anything. I think it will stifle creativity for them and even some of the more experienced turners. What are people supposed to do, question everything they turn as to who might have influenced the design they are doing???


If they don't want it copied, intentionally or by accident then keep the design private, they shouldn't inflate their egos by posting pics on every woodturning forum on the Internet. And they sure shouldn't be teaching their techniques to others.

[Mobyturns]

I know which forum and thread this discussion was started over, I a part of that discussion. First there were accusations being made that there was no credit given to the original artist. Even though nobody saw the application, it was only assumed that he did not give credit for the design. The turner had taken a class from the original designer, and entered his piece in a local show which was open to all kinds of woodworking from woodturning to furniture. A writer from AAW saw the results and reported them in the AW magazine.

This is getting ridiculous, with all of the accusations possible, some of the newer turners will become afraid to post anything. I think it will stifle creativity for them and even some of the more experienced turners. What are people supposed to do, question everything they turn as to who might have influenced the design they are doing???


If they don't want it copied, intentionally or by accident then keep the design private, they shouldn't inflate their egos by posting pics on every woodturning forum on the Internet. And they sure shouldn't be teaching their techniques to others.


Actually this discussion on the Woodwork Forums started back in October before the AAW magazine was published and before the discussion on the other forum commenced.

[Paul39]

I read this many years ago and found the exact quote via Google.

http://boardofwisdom.com/cachetogo/images/quotes/6083.png

[Scott]

It seems to me that there are fingers being pointed here. If we're being asked to be honest and sincere with our work, wouldn't it be just as honourable to truthfully mention who the finger is being pointed at?

As NeilS so eloquently highlighted, inspiration comes from many sources. Mine have been Ken Wraight, Neil Turner and Brendan Stemp to name a few. NeilS, Vern (http://ttit.id.au/me.htm) and Hughie would have have to be up there too. I've also gleaned many isolated examples of work from here (Woodwork Forums) and the internet.

I haven't developed my own style as yet (I need to get back on the lathe anyway), however if and when I do I would be flattered if someone were to copy my ideas.

[smiife]

I haven't developed my own style as yet (I need to get back on the lathe anyway), however if and when I do I would be flattered if someone were to copy my ideas.

I would have to agree with scott..........not that I really
understand what this Is all about, I thought it was about
giving credit to fellow turners when you copied their work
reading between the lines there seems to be a lot more to it:o
maybe someone would like to explain to rest of us that are
obviously not in the know?:doh:

[Mobyturns]

I would have to agree with scott..........not that I really
understand what this Is all about, I thought it was about
giving credit to fellow turners when you copied their work
reading between the lines there seems to be a lot more to it:o
maybe someone would like to explain to rest of us that are
obviously not in the know?:doh:


I have no idea what prompted this particular WWF thread that was started in October.

When we start out we all learn from copying other turners work and normally there is no harm in this while we are learning and mostly credit is given to the original turner or turners for the inspiration. Problems start to arise when a turner’s skills mature and they start selling or entering competitions with almost identical copies of another’s designs. The topic of copying in wood turning is regularly raised often with quite public "outings" of a turner for copying another well known turner’s work.

Unfortunately at times some turners overstep the unwritten etiquette of wood turning (what ever that is) and the original artist and their supporters get upset about it. This is what has occurred in the US recently with the publication of photos in the AAW journal of prize winning group that were entered into a well known long running regional competition. A turner was accused of entering a group of almost identical copies of some quite unique designs all from the same turner. A quite robust discussion about the incident started on another forum. The whole discussion has since been pulled.

There are a few lessons to be learned from such incidents, firstly get permission to copy another’s work before selling or entering competitions, develop your own work, and make sure of all of your facts before accusing another of copying or plagiarism.

[smiife]

Hi mobyturns,
Thank you for the explaintion, now I kinda understand:;
I can understand how things can get out of hand, I recently
asked about lattice turning for example, I just assumed
that everone knows who did the orginal lattice stuff, and
i guess i am guilty of copying:obut i just wanted to know
how it, s done, and if i could do something similar, that
all came about from watching a u-tube video
Thanks again mobyturns

[Mobyturns]

Hi mobyturns,
Thank you for the explaintion, now I kinda understand:;
I can understand how things can get out of hand, I recently
asked about lattice turning for example, I just assumed
that everone knows who did the orginal lattice stuff, and
i guess i am guilty of copying:obut i just wanted to know
how it, s done, and if i could do something similar, that
all came about from watching a u-tube video
Thanks again mobyturns


Smiife,

I think you are OK with the lattice turnings for now, while you are researching and studying the technique. Have a look at Hans Wiesflogg’s & his son Jacob’s work as Hans is usually credited as inspiration for lattice turnings.

A long one but perhaps worthwhile

What we must understand about copying is that the laws of copyright apply in most jurisdictions through international treaty and in some instances registered designs may also exist over a wood turned or manufactured item etc. Registered designs are rare in wood turning or for one off or limited production runs but they are common for mass produced items that may inspire a wood turner i.e. a profile etc.

Hans Bolling’s wood turned ducks & figures (Oscar the dog, Strit, Mermaid etc) which were first made in the 1950’s and many other Danish wood turned items were and perhaps still are protected by registered designs and certainly by copyright but many wood turners make variants of them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EG3iEJqWG1k

As soon as an item is created or takes material form i.e. a sketch or physical form as opposed to an idea, copyright automatically applies to that item and anyone wishing to create reproductions of it - either another hand made item (copy), scans, images & photographs etc. - must either seek permission to use it or comply with the limited fair dealings provisions of copyright law.

Copyright applies to paintings, drawings, cartoons, sculpture, craft work, architectural plans, buildings, photographs, maps and plans. Copyright does not cover titles, names, ideas or techniques although some form of intellectual property protection may apply (patents, trade marks etc) and again that is not common in wood turning due to the prohibitive costs.

The fair dealing exemptions apply to research or study so you can make near identical copies of another’s lattice turnings but only for the purpose of research or study. Problems start to arise as an infringement of copyright when those near identical copies are published, are entered into competitions or are sold.

Now if you make a derivative item using those techniques and ideas there is no infringement. “In copyright terms, it’s not hard for something to be original: it means that the work isn’t a mere copy, a requisite level of skill and effort has been exercised in its creation.” This is why many demonstrators say I have shown you the techniques now go and make it your own – meaning please don’t just copy mine!

Acknowledgement does not excuse or lessen a copying infringement nor does not making a profit make it fair. You must seek permission to copy another's work once you are outside the fair dealings exemptions. The test the courts apply as to whether “a dealing is fair or not is to be judged by the criterion of a fair minded and honest person”. If fair minded persons (not experts) see them as a copy then the courts tend to rule that they are a copy.

Copyright law only provides an avenue to protect literary & artistic works, to establish exclusive rights for the creator, and mechanisms for the owner to protect and assert those rights. The owner must assert those rights when another infringes their copyright. Asserting those rights can be expensive so many artists choose the public "outing" of another who has allegedly infringed their "exclusive rights". They may not be entitled to claim they have an exclusive right as their work may not be as original as they think it is.

Quotes are sourced from http://www.copyright.org.au/find-an-answer/browse-by-a-z/ which is good reading for any craftsman getting more serious about their craft / art.

[Scott]

Hmm, so if I turned something round I'm infringing on everyone's copyright? With lattice turning, who should give credit to whom, Hans Weisflog or Ken Wraight?

I don't see anything wrong with trying different techniques and developing your own style.

As I've hinted, I think this post was started to have a go at someone. What's weak about nz_carver's initial post it that he didn't have the fortitude to name whoever he was having a whinge about.

[Christos]

.....

As I've hinted, I think this post was started to have a go at someone. What's weak about nz_carver's initial post it that he didn't have the fortitude to name whoever he was having a whinge about.


Let's ensure that we understand something here. This paragraph has been copied from the forum rules.

If you intend to denigrate a business or person on these forums please think long and hard before doing it. You might also like to check with your lawyer and your accountant to see if you have enough money to fight the law suit that may ensue.

The full text can be read by this link, Forum Rules (http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=33200)

Weather it was or was not his intention is irrelevant because the thread is what it is. No finger pointing or ousting.

Thank you

[Hermit]

One problem is that, if we are going to copy, often the turner we are copying is not the original inventor of the idea, but a previous 'copier'. Sometimes we know that, sometimes we don't.

e.g. Some time ago I made a small segmented plate with banding in the rim, copied from an article by Bob Chapman in the January 2014 issue of the UK 'The Woodworker & Woodturner' magazine. At the time, I gave credit to the author of the article, but in reality the idea was not his, but another turner back in 1948.
Did Bob Chapman deserve credit? (He just got some more.) Should I have tried to track down the name of the original turner?

Regarding the lattice turning, who 'originally' came up with that idea? Was it Ken Wraight, was it Hans Weissflog, or was it some other, unknown turner at an earlier time?
I noticed that Moby told Smiife, regarding the lattice turning, "I think you are OK with the lattice turnings for now".

I don't quite understand the 'for now'. Does that mean we can have a go at it while learning, but can't display or sell lattice turnings once we know what we're doing? Or can we copy whatever we like, as long as we give full credit?

This thread has been gnawing at me since I first saw it. I'm nervous about copying anything now, since most of the time I have no idea where the idea originated. It's very limiting, but I'm worried that if I post something that is very similar to someone else's work and don't give any credit, I'll be branded as a thief.

[smiife]

This thread has been gnawing at me since I first saw it. I'm nervous about copying anything now, since most of the time I have no idea where the idea originated. It's very limiting, but I'm worried that if I post something that is very similar to someone else's work and don't give any credit, I'll be branded as a thief.

I think that Is a shame if people are worried about making
things and also posting on this forum, there will be a decline
of other peoples ideas ,it is obviously making people nervous
I for one like to see what others are making, good or bad it is
always Interesting, so do others think we should carry on or
should we just not post anymore? In fear of being sued!:o

[Hermit]

I think that Is a shame if people are worried about making
things and also posting on this forum, there will be a decline
of other peoples ideas ,it is obviously making people nervous
I for one like to see what others are making, good or bad it is
always Interesting, so do others think we should carry on or
should we just not post anymore? In fear of being sued!:o

I've been thinking about it some more and don't think I personally have to worry about it for a long time, if ever. No matter what I try to copy, mine won't look anything like the original. :D

Seriously, though, I reckon there's nothing to worry about as long as we exercise due diligence and, if we feel that something is someone else's 'original' work, we give full credit. It'll be in the back of my mind forever now - not a bad thing.

Now back to my attempts to copy Cindy Drozda. Nothing to worry about there.......

[DaveTTC]

Possibly Id say the the two biggest influences on me as a turner are and Richard Raffin. I have spent time with, Richard I have spent time watching his DVD's.

I don't think my work reflects their work though if I were to teach I would likely use some of their expressions. They may or may not of got their expressions and ideas from their mentors.

In reality I hope I pick up a little something from every person I rub shoulders with, whether I am inspired to mimic their work, develop their work or use their ideas (or part there of) in a completely different application.

More than happy to credit my mentors and inspiration


Dave the turning cowboy

turning wood into art

[chuck1]

Here we go I was looking at a travel flyer and Saw a Roman column and thought it would make a nice table lamp who does the the credit go to? I don't know who made the stone column and the one I have turned out of timber is smaller than the columns in Rome And is serving a different purpose.
I know this is a bit off topic. But where does this leave me? It's a copy of someone else's work, was it made by fattus demestos 900 B.C.

[Evanism]

Once again Mobyturns has opened my eyes with post 13 and 28. Good thought provoking stuff.

The challenge to look up and read "Dale Chihuly copyright infringement" was worthy. At first, you think "this person is having a bit of a go" and then you realise just how ripped off this dude is. Every slimy filthy grasping scumbag imaginable has tried to pass off his work as their own, stolen and copied material wholesale, pretending as if his unique forms and artistic interpretations are mere "applications of the craft"... And worse, the lawyers...WHY are more lawyers not shot?

Post 28 is the same. Unbelievably thought provoking stuff.

What really grabs me though and deflects the whole "columns of Rome" arguement is that it's quite ok to use artistic interpretation, deference and stylistic ideas and incorporate them into a new work....but it's entirely bull to simply flog another's work wholesale and pass it off as your own.

Once you read the material and see the original artists, a "reasonable man" would say its unfair, bogus and a fraud.

It's not even a matter of law, it's a matter of morals and fraud.

Imagine if you had sweated and bled to create greatness, then some sheister simply copies you identically and sells out at 1/10th the price?

[Mobyturns]

Hermit




I noticed that Moby told Smiife, regarding the lattice turning, "I think you are OK with the lattice turnings for now".


I don't quite understand the 'for now'. Does that mean we can have a go at it while learning, but can't display or sell lattice turnings once we know what we're doing? Or can we copy whatever we like, as long as we give full credit.





Hermit first off I'm only giving my view on this topic and not advice. The fair dealing exception recognizes copying for research or study purposes. So yes for learning, & no it is not OK to simply copy another artists "original" work without their permission, giving credit or not, if the work is to be used for other than research or study.

This is all subjective and of course their will be varying opinions as to the "originality" of work (that's why we have lawyers). Remember the "original" work has to be sufficiently original for their to be a legitimate claim, and the test an honest and fair person. Techniques in common use or shared by the "original" artist are not protected by copyright. The Dale Chihuly case is an excellent example of how each party has made a claim and is prepared to defend their claim & to protect an income stream.

Some copies really test the relationships between "original" artist and those who try to emulate their work. When you see pieces that use the same timber/s, profiles, patterns, techniques, there is something unique about the form or the combination of the elements, well I feel an honest & fair person will say they are a copy.
As stated above the trick is to "steal from many" and to make it your own. Making derivative works is OK.

Largely this matter does not affect the hobby turner as in most cases the copy will be seen to be just that an attempt to emulate or copy and generally it is "inferior" to the original artists work. The problems arise when the copy becomes more than an inferior copy and/or more than just for personal study or research or there is money/incomes involved.