Questions about Vicmarc grinding jig

[QuarkVI]

Hi Gents,

about to purchase a gouge grinding jig and deciding between the tru-grind and vicmarc (just the gouge jig not the platform jig). Have used the tru-grind at my club but I prefer the solidity of the vicmarc (haven't used or seen in person), that it is easier to extend with the grinding platform at a later date and that the "slides" work on either side of the grinder, but wanted to ask a few questions that I couldn't find answered in the online manual(http://www.vicmarc.com/downloads/Grinding%20Station%20Manual.pdf) or elsewhere:

- Can the "arm" be pulled far back enough to be parallel with the gouge, so that you could do a straight across grind on say a roughing gouge?
- What is the maximum width gouge that it can accommodate?
- What is the max width skew that can be accommodated (in sidewise orientation)? from pic in manual (pg7) it seems they have a 1" skew?

The only other functional difference I can see in the two jigs is that the tru-grind has an index on the leg so that you can see the angle you have set, planning to use a couple of template blocks for the vicmarc (too lazy for sharpie test every time). Also assuming I will be able to get the jig working on a 6" grinder by putting the grinder on a riser block.

thanks
Robin

[Hermit]

Hello Robin, I have a VicMarc jig. Been using it for a few months, but only on bowl gouges so far.

I just quickly checked mine out to answer your questions:

1. The arm pulls back to almost parallel with the tool, but not quite.
(Please excuse the el-cheapo Chinese roughing gouge.)

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It could be ground a bit to make it nearer to parallel, (arrowed below), but not too much.

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2. The absolute maximum width bowl gouge it can accomodate is 1 1/2", (38mm).

3. You're right, the maximum width skew, oriented sideways, is 1".

4. When I first got my jig, before I bought an 8" grinder, (VicMarc slow-speed), I had it on a 6" grinder without problems. Didn't even use a riser to bring the wheel up 2" - just a spacer under each grinder mounting bolt because the grinder base and the side flanges of the jig overlapped. (I had to do the same even with the VicMarc grinder, incidentally).

Sing out if you have any other questions.

Edit: Just thinking about it, you could put a thin spacer under the front edge of a roughing gouge in the jig to bring it nearer to parallel to the arm, too, rather than grinding the jig.
I think that ultimately the tool handle might prevent it from being completely parallel though.

[Bluegum]

Brendan Stemp does a really good review of the entire vicmarc sharpening system. Check it out on you turn tv. Or you tube. Sorry I didn't post the link into it.

[george mavridis]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMi3bWEakbo&list=UUYJ4e0XACGJQjJvfmVUcE-Q

[QuarkVI]

Thanks gents,

still to and froing about this decision as I try to decide how important the indexing ability is for the leg and it seems as if the vicmarc leg goes close enough to parallel to work for a roughing gouge.

Just find the build quality of the vicmarc really attractive but at the same time need to choose what will be easiest/quickest/most reliable for my son and I.

pondering
Robin

[Mobyturns]

While in NZ I just set up a new Woodcut Tru-grind jig for friends who are quite competent turners but still struggle with sharpening. They already had a Tru-grind set up but an older model that would not accept the new table accessory. The Tru-grind performed well enough & produced good grinds, but for me after having used the Heli-grind and Tormek systems for many years I found the Tru-grind a bit "wobbly". The Tru-Grind was quite satisfactory. We agreed that the older Tru-grind jig arm should be kept with the new horizontal arm & new table accessory. The new jig arm and old horizontal arm to be sold. Why? The Tru-grind old jig arm is a bit like the Vicmarc, both probably could be run over with a Mack truck and still be serviceable. I doubt the new "diecast" jig arm on the Tru-grind would survive even a few drops onto a concrete floor.

The whole design of the Tru-grind means you have to pay constant attention to the horizontal arms clamp system to ensure it is tight & remains tight. Remember there is a lot of vibration on most grinders (there should not be but most do) so loosening clamps is a bit of a worry for me. IF the clamps move it is possible that the jig can move and potentially cause you some harm. Personally I am not a fan of heel pivot grinding systems for the same reasons, IF the heel kicks out you have a BIG problem as quite a few turners have found out over the years. The heel pivot on both the old & new Tru-grinds are not well designed IMO, but if used with care per manufacturers instructions they are "safe enough." The Vicmarc's design appears superior to the Tru-grind in mount and heel support design and the table design is far better IMO but I have never used the Vicmarc system so reserve comment.

There are other options out there that are "safer" than these heel support style jigs but of course they are more expensive options. Perhaps the Tormek BGM 100 mount with the Tormek jigs? With the cost of the Tormek BGM 100 + jigs etc at $600 vs Tru-grind at about $240 with table or Vicmarc system at about $330 it is easy to see why the Tru-grind is popular.

[QuarkVI]

Thanks Mobyturns,

mmm I was also looking at that new die cast leg on the tru-grind and wondering just how cheaply made it was. You also make a good points about some of the issues with the heel pivot systems but get to the heart of much the issue when you bring up the $$$.

To the best of my knowledge the only of the "cheaper" systems that are currently made and aren't a heel pivot type are the Sharp Fast System and Oneway vari-grind 2 that hold the gouge in a similar fashion to the old Sorby or Heli-grind jigs. Both of them have a maximum capacity of a ¾" gouge and hence can't hold a wider roughing gouge or do skews - but then again that is what the platform part of the system is for.

I did try making my own clone of the wolverine out of wood (don't have a welder :no:) and works alright but doesn't have the adjustability and the slide is not that quick to use. Was trying to avoid spending the money on the jig and rather buying other toys but finally realised it will be worth the spend for me to sharpen well and will mean I worry less when my son learns to sharpen ... which has all led to the internal debate of vicmarc vs tru-grind vs gary pye wolverine clone :U

What has pushed me towards the vicmarc is the build quality and that I can later buy the flat tool rest jig which seems to be really nice and works well with the slide. I had toyed with just getting the jig portion but I know from first hand experience how much work it is to build a decent slide.

Seems like I have talked myself into the vicmarc and will build a flat tool rest jig from ply as I would rather use that money to get a CBN to go with the gouge jig.

usual fun and games as one tries to decide on what order to buy things in ..

[Jim Carroll]

I have used the tru grind for a lot of years as it was easy to get the fingernail grind shape.

Since the Vicmarc grinding jig (http://www.cwsonline.com.au/shop/item/vicmarc-grinding-jig) has come out it has fixed the problems we had with the tru grind.

The cam action of the tool holder is far superior as it can quickly adjust from a 6mm gouge to a 25mm gouge.

The knob for moving the cam is on the outside and easy to grip, the tru grind knob can be awkward to turn.

The tru grind is mainly designed to hold a round bar of the woodcut gouges and needs a small bar to hold the more traditional gouges with flutes down the tool. The vicmarc sits directly on the edges of the flutes so holds it nice and square in the jig.

With both the vicmarc and trugrind you get a slight radius on the skew jig. Not a real problem

Although there is no markings on the vicmarc you can still mark your own angles on the jig and the slide.

It is heavier than the trugrind as all vicmarc products are over engineered but this is a good thing as you feel comfortable with the way it sits in the slide and on the wheel.

Yes it is a big improvement.

[artful bodger]

There used to be a saying that " Reality is for people who can't handle drugs"
I might be drawing a long bow here, BUT, I'd say, "Grinding jigs are for people who have not practiced enough freehand grinding."
Cripes! there are ten things on the end of your palms(Irish calculators) that can out do any silly jig with a bit of practice.
Don't buy any stupid grinding jig Robin, would be my advice. Not for chisels gouges,etc. Different story if its planer or thicknesser blades.

[Mobyturns]

There used to be a saying that " Reality is for people who can't handle drugs"
I might be drawing a long bow here, BUT, I'd say, "Grinding jigs are for people who have not practiced enough freehand grinding."
Cripes! there are ten things on the end of your palms(Irish calculators) that can out do any silly jig with a bit of practice.
Don't buy any stupid grinding jig Robin, would be my advice. Not for chisels gouges,etc. Different story if its planer or thicknesser blades.

Free hand grinding is OK for someone who is doing it all the time, however most turners would be lucky to sharpen gouges etc a couple of times a month. They just don't get enough opportunity to develop the skill. Jigs simply take out the guess work for them.

[Jim Carroll]

Art have to agree with Moby on this one, yes it would be great for everyone to have the correct hand skills to sharpen all their own tools

But over the years I have seen some glorious tools with so many facets that any wife would be proud to wear if they were diamond rings.

Yes practice does make perfect but as indicated most people do not do that enough to get the correct hand skills.

The jigs help take a lot of the guesswork out of this part of the hobby and gets them back on the lathe doing what they really want to do.

[Paul39]

I have this system with the smaller vari-grind jig:

http://www.oneway.ca/sharpening/grind_jig.htm

I only use the vari-grind jig on bowl gouges. I rest the skews on the platform and slide across, turn over and again, when I have buggered up the edge. Usually I hone the skew on a piece of 320 sandpaper on the lathe bed.

Spindle gouges I rest on the edge of the platform and free hand grind. Scrapers are held right down on the platform with one finger and given a swipe side to side.

There is also this from Tormek:

http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Tormek-Mounting-for-Bench-Grinder-P331.aspx

http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Tormek-Gouge-Jig-P354.aspx

A year or so ago in a weak moment I bought a used Tormek outfit at a good price. As it was winter and my shop gets below freezing I did not put it down there but set it on the kitchen counter and sharpened plane irons, scissors, skews, and my bowl gouges. I promptly sliced myself on a bowl gouge. The Tormek is still in the kitchen.

I was most impressed with the gouge jig.

For me, the hot set up would be an 8 inch slow speed grinder with CBN wheels, the Tormek bench grinder mount, and the gouge jig.

The Tormek system is wonderful for getting the absolute sharpest edge on plane irons, bench chisels, and carving tools.

Except for the final shaving of the surface before sanding, all that wonderful sharpness is wasted on turning tools. Why?

Using a bench plane, & assuming one stroke per second of between a foot or two you will have run that sharp edge over 60 to 120 feet of timber in one minute.

With a bowl gouge working at the edge of a 12 inch bowl turning at 800 RPM, in one minute that bowl gouge has traveled over around 2500 feet of timber.

In hard, abrasive, Aussie timber that fine edge is gone in the blink of an eye.

This fool's opinion is that starting out with a decent dry grinder and 120 grit wheels, and sharpening and hand honing before the final cut, will get you to the point of starting with 120 grit or finer sandpaper.

When I am turning - almost all bowls - I turn on the grinder and leave it on the whole session. When the gouge slows down cutting I stick it into the jig, position by resting the jig on the side of the lathe bed, extend the nose of the gouge to a mark on the lathe bed, tighten, one swipe from left to right, one swipe from right to left, check the edge by eye, out of the jig, and back to turning. Start to finish in less than a minute.

[QuarkVI]

Hi All,

my vicmarc jig arrived today and thought I would post some comments. I haven't had a chance to use it yet as I was out in the shed tonight busy building a new platform for the grinder etc. Also now trying to decide wether I spend the money now on a CBN or just buy an AlOx wheel .... mmmmmm.... still have the cheapo wheels that came with the cheapo grinder.

Have put the centre line of the wheel 6.5 inches above the base and seems to be right - using clones of the tru-grind spacers (http://www.sawg.org.nz/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Tru-Grind-Spacers1.pdf) that I made to get the base in the right position.

First off I was blown away at just how heavy duty the jig is - it just bigger and beefier than it seems in the pics. Clamping is easy and it gets the gouges and skew centred first time with no hassles.

Also note that everything is "loose" in the jig and held together by the two bolts i.e. if for some bizarre reason you needed to make a different set of the bottom V pieces that contact the bottom of the gouge you could do that quite easily. Also means easy to modify that piece as suggested by Hermit - going to wait to do some testing before I decide whether I will take some metal off to get the leg parallel to the gouge.

In hermit's first picture you will also notice what looks like a dimple at the very bottom angle of the jig body - this is actually a hole with a slit through to the edge - not sure what it is for but there is one on each side and it would be an obvious place to either put marks on the leg assembly or to drill right through if you wanted to index the leg positions OR cut slits into the leg assembly to use as indexing marks. Probably haven't explained very well but, suffice to say, my one concern about indexing the leg can easily be overcome.

As Jim mentions the cup that holds the bottom of the jig is substantial and has an extra raised bit at the back, on your side, so that you can't just slip out of the cup - you would have to lift the whole jig at least 8mm to get it to slip out the back of the cup.

Overall exceptionally happy that I chose the vicmarc over the tru-grind.

appreciate everyone's advice.

cheers
Robin