Karl Robbers 14th November 2014, 09:46 AM Well, it appears that I am the proud new owner of a Smith and Mills 25" Shaper in good condition. All 6200 pounds of her.
What can anyone tell me about the Smith and Mills machines. I know that they are US made and have been making shapers since 1888.
Secondly, what pre checks should I be giving the old girl before I push the go button. I believe that they have an internal lubrication pump and therefore I will ensure that all pipes/orifices are clear and oiling the areas that need oiling. A bit of a Google search also gives me the impression that you need to be very careful about setup otherwise moving parts can clash and destroy themselves in the blink of an eye.
Can anyone recommend a good book that gives an overview of shapers, their setup, operation and tool sharpening/profiles?
I am a Boilermaker by trade and know my way around a lathe pretty well and can perform basic milling operations competently, but shapers are a new area for me.
Ideally I would love to lay my hands on a manual for the machine, but that will take some doing I imagine.
If anyone is looking for a shaper, the same gentleman that I purchased this one from has a Sacia 450 available as well and is very willing to negotiate on price as he needs to vacate a rented shed ASAP.
welder 14th November 2014, 11:06 AM Pics or it doesn't exist :U
http://neme-s.org/Shaper%20Books/shaper_book_page.htm
franco 14th November 2014, 11:37 AM "Shapers" by Emanuele Stieri (ISBN 1-55918-146-X) covers the subject pretty well. I got my copy from Plough Book Sales some time ago. It is a Lindsay Publications reprint of the original, but may not still be available new because Lindsay Publications have now ceased business.
Plough Book Sales have "Shaper Operations, Lessons in Using a Shaper (1937)" by J W Barrit listed in their current catalogue, which, from the description, sounds OK, but I have not seen a copy. Catalogue Code Number 004806, $15.
http://www.ploughbooksales.com.au/004806.htm
Frank.
Karl Robbers 14th November 2014, 12:12 PM Pics or it doesn't exist :U
http://neme-s.org/Shaper%20Books/shaper_book_page.htm
Oops, forgot the picture rule:U
I have only one picture, which is the pic from the advert.331196
I don't collect the old girl until late next week and I'll put up some more pics when I can take them.
Stustoys 14th November 2014, 12:44 PM Welcome to the club.
If looks are anything to go by its in good nick, congratulations.
With the tool slide wound down so far you need to be careful with stroke length and/or position (which is I assume what you are talking about re googling). In a perfect world you'd always have the tool slide high enough that it clears the main casting.
Stuart
Karl Robbers 14th November 2014, 01:40 PM The machine is in good nick. Actually, so is the other shaper on offer as well.
The story goes that the gentleman that I purchased it from had gone out on his own and bought these and other machines from an old fitter and machinist in his mid to late 70's. The old bloke made a bit of a hobby out of refurbishing/servicing up old machines. Anyway, due to the collapse of the forest industry, the work dried up and the bloke I bought the shaper from went back to subbying to another company.
He still has one more shaper, a couple of big 3 phase pedestal grinders, a mig welder, plasma and Churchill cylindrical grinder left for sale.
The Smith and Mills is a big, heavy machine for sure and will take some careful manouvering at my end.
jhovel 14th November 2014, 02:10 PM Put yourself on Phil's list for the 'shaper USB stick' by PM to 'steamwhisperer'. That will give you all the books and manuals we've collected. Plenty of reading and pictures there!
.RC. 14th November 2014, 03:16 PM https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/46279918/shaping%20plaing%20slotting.pdf
jhovel 14th November 2014, 04:12 PM I forgot and RC's post reminded me: have a look here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/2uvrl742fva6qb3/AAAZutiQW_d7XMK_AVn814XQa?dl=0
Karl Robbers 14th November 2014, 06:01 PM Thanks to everyone for the brilliant information thus far, it will take me a while to go through it all.
I'm off to work for four days now, so my internet access will be a bit restricted, but I will be back on the case late Tuesday night.
Once again, thanks to all thus far.
Oldneweng 14th November 2014, 06:40 PM Has anyone mentioned to make sure that there is room for the ram to move all the way back on its max length setting to avoid it hitting something behind it with unexpected results?
Dean
Karl Robbers 14th November 2014, 08:21 PM Has anyone mentioned to make sure that there is room for the ram to move all the way back on its max length setting to avoid it hitting something behind it with unexpected results?
Dean
I actually thought of that one. One of my first thoughts was that some sort of guarding/barrier wouldn't be a bad idea.
One of the forums I came across last night, Practical Machining I think it was, had a calculation by a gentleman well versed in shapers, where he pointed out that in low gear, these big shapers produce equivalent torque to two 454 Chev big block V8's in low gear with a 4.10 rear end. Pretty impressive. Mental note to self, stay well clear of all moving parts!
Still deciding where in the shed to put the beast.
I didn't actually plan on buying a shaper and was actually searching for a linisher, found one, looked at the sellers other items and.................................... Well you know how it goes.
Probably a silly question, but I have never seen carbide tooling mentioned in any of the references to shapers. Is it not used or is HSS just the most common option?
I am pretty positive and excited by the prospects of this machine. I repair quite a few cast iron manifolds and the like and this beast will be just so handy for truing the faces etc and being able to cut keyways will put a smile on my face that will take some removing.
Apart from that, the powerful, steam train like movement and rock solid construction really appeals to me.
Steamwhisperer 14th November 2014, 08:57 PM Congrats Karl,
PM sent
Phil
PDW 15th November 2014, 07:59 AM I saw his ads and to say his prices are - interesting - is the most innocuous remark I'll make.
A BOC 80A plasma cutter for $1800? I can buy a brand new BOC 100A plasma cutter, from BOC, for $1575.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/271350969210?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
I know this is Tasmania and everything has a freight premium, but still..... perhaps I should list some of my surplus machinery and see how it goes. I have quite a bit due to some upgrades recently.
That shaper looks in really good condition and - bonus - it has a serious vise with it.
PDW
Ueee 15th November 2014, 10:00 AM Congrats Karl, she sure is one nice looking machine.
Dean makes a good point with the wall, i put the ram through the lining of my shed one day, the rams will go back a lot further than you may think....
I also keep my clutch only just tight enough to make sure the machine cuts, with the hope that in the advent of a crash the clutch will slip. Having said that i did bump the vice off the table early on (well nearly i managed to stop her in the nick of time), so maybe it's just a dream that the clutch will slip.....
Ew
morrisman 15th November 2014, 10:40 AM Not seen this before
http://users.beagle.com.au/lathefan/Cutting%20keyway%20with%20a%20shaper.pdf
http://www.circuitousroot.com/artifice/machine-shop/shaper/literature/
simonl 16th November 2014, 09:29 PM Hi Karl,
Congratulations on the machine! When I first started using the shaper for a job I found it to be one of the most user unfriendly, unforgiving machines I have! Only takes a small distraction on setup to have a crash. I run mine of a VFD and I learnt very quickly to run it on jog at 5 hz just to make sure everything was ok before committing to full speed.
WRT cabide. I was told its not good because all cutting on shapers are interrupted cuts which is not good for carbide as it tends to chip or damage the cutters. Besides HSS is perfect for shapers anyway.
Cheers
Simon
Karl Robbers 17th November 2014, 08:51 PM I saw his ads and to say his prices are - interesting - is the most innocuous remark I'll make.
A BOC 80A plasma cutter for $1800? I can buy a brand new BOC 100A plasma cutter, from BOC, for $1575.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/271350969210?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
I know this is Tasmania and everything has a freight premium, but still..... perhaps I should list some of my surplus machinery and see how it goes. I have quite a bit due to some upgrades recently.
That shaper looks in really good condition and - bonus - it has a serious vise with it.
PDW
Yes I know what you mean. As best I can tell he has based his pricing around what he paid for the items.
He is very open to offers and I didn't pay anywhere near the asking price for my shaper.
Karl Robbers 17th November 2014, 08:58 PM Hi Karl,
Congratulations on the machine! When I first started using the shaper for a job I found it to be one of the most user unfriendly, unforgiving machines I have! Only takes a small distraction on setup to have a crash. I run mine of a VFD and I learnt very quickly to run it on jog at 5 hz just to make sure everything was ok before committing to full speed.
WRT cabide. I was told its not good because all cutting on shapers are interrupted cuts which is not good for carbide as it tends to chip or damage the cutters. Besides HSS is perfect for shapers anyway.
Cheers
Simon
I have not forgotten the lesson I learned some years ago when I may possibly have smashed the quick change toolpost off a Colchester lathe while doing some eccentric turning at TAFE. Now I always find a way to run cycle a machine by hand before I hit the go button.
I admit that this is the area that causes me the greatest concern overall.
It makes sense about the chipping of carbide tools plus you would lose a certain amount of versatility by being constrained by set tool profiles. I think an angle plate will be my first project once I get set up.
mcostello 18th November 2014, 03:23 AM This is an interesting coincidence to find this shaper at this time. I just bought a vise at online auction when I could not get to the real auction on time. They showed 2 pictured, one of a universal milling machine which I bid on and won for $85 USD. Another picture was a shaper vise, same size picture along the other. I bid on it and won it, cannot declare price as it was sold online and the buyer might see this post. The shaper was covered in about 20 years of grime. Looked as heavy as stated above,auction price was USD $125 with only one bid. Would have loved to have it but no room. The vise is around 300 pounds, 13 1/4" wide and about 13" long.
Karl Robbers 19th November 2014, 01:26 AM One sleep to go and I pick her up!
I will put some more photos up once I have her. I've even got a plan on how to unload her off my truck. No, it's not gravity.
Karl Robbers 20th November 2014, 12:06 AM Well, it's home, sitting on the ground awaiting final positioning and installation.
Loading it was no issue, a borrowed 4 tonne Hyster forklift sorted that. Unloading was another thing entirely.
I collected the big girl on my Mitsubishi tipper, once home I proceeded to set up a 3 Phase 3 tonne electric chain hoist on the front of the tray, ran a webbing lifting strop around the shaper and tipped the tray up to maybe 15 deg which was more than enough to let the machine slide. It was then simply a matter of hitting the down button on the hoist and Big Bertha slid down the tray until just shy of half was overhanging the tray. I then tipped the tray to a shade over 30 deg and slid the machine off until it touched the ground. The truck was then driven forward carefully until the edge of the base was roughly half way between the tray pivot point and the back of the tray, blocking placed under the machine base and the tray tipped up all the way so it dropped from under the blocked machine. After all this, it was a simple matter to drive the truck away and bring my Toyota Huski loader in and lift the end sufficiently to allow the blocks to be removed and the machine lowered to the ground. The final step will be to move her into place with my tractor which will lift a shade over 4 tonne on the linkage.
Many hours of thought and planning led to a smooth job :2tsup:
Probably a silly question, but I cannot find a direction of rotation for the motor. Which way should it spin?
Ueee 20th November 2014, 12:22 AM Good to here she is home safe.
Generally the motor should run so the bull gear runs clockwise when you look from the door side. This means the return stroke will be faster then the cutting stroke. If it runs the other way round huge pressure is put on the arm, bearing block and pin.
Cheers,
Ew
Karl Robbers 20th November 2014, 12:44 PM I had a feeling that was probably the direction.
I'll put a plug on her tonight and see what happens.
.RC. 21st November 2014, 07:41 PM hmmmmmmmmm
http://i60.tinypic.com/2lly4k7.jpg
Karl knows the rule.... pics or it didn't happen.. :)
Karl Robbers 21st November 2014, 08:52 PM hmmmmmmmmm
http://i60.tinypic.com/2lly4k7.jpg
Karl knows the rule.... pics or it didn't happen.. :)
Tomorrow I promise. The last two days have just not run to plan. Yesterday I was meant to panelbeat, reskin and polish a truck fuel tank. Normally a 6-8 hour endeavour. I actually spent half the day repairing the welders in the workshop I was working in and took the tank components home to finish off using my own gear. Today wasn't a whole lot better and I will have a late night in the shed to get up to where I need to be, so I can go back to the West Coast for 4 night shifts in my normal job.
I haven't even had time to play with the shaper :(
Karl Robbers 30th November 2014, 07:54 PM Well tomorrow was a bit longer in coming than I planned, but they are here now, some pictures for your viewing pleasure.
332895332896332897332898
I had to replace the switch gear on the old girl as the contacts were burnt. While that would have been a relatively easy fix, I was concerned that being old, oil dampened switch gear, the oil would most likely be full of PCB and other nasties.
I have a bit of fine tuning to do as over a 500mm workpiece, the machine produces a .4mm taper. Whether this is table droop, setup error or vice mounting issues I have yet to decide and did not have the time to properly work the problem through from start to finish. It appears that the oil feed may have been compromised or swarf trapped on one side of the ram as there is evidence of some galling that has been repaired, but there is still plenty of accurate bearing area. On the bright side, I did fix the stroke indicator, which was no working initially. One loose nut tightened and all was good.
I will say this though, they just ooze power and on the maximum 100 stroke per minute setting it does its best to launch into flight. I don't see full speed being used at full stroke too often.
For the moment, she is sitting under cover where I unloaded her until her resting place can be prepared properly in the shed.
The adventure continues and I'm loving it.
Stustoys 30th November 2014, 08:24 PM Well tomorrow was a bit longer in coming than I planned
Hey, that happens at my place as well!
Good to her you got it up and running.
I have a bit of fine tuning to do as over a 500mm workpiece, the machine produces a .4mm taper.
Taper how?
I will say this though, they just ooze power and on the maximum 100 stroke per minute setting it does its best to launch into flight. I don't see full speed being used at full stroke too often.
Damn that would be exciting!!!
Stuart
.RC. 30th November 2014, 08:54 PM I see it has the standard galling on the ways from lack of lubrication...
I am yet to see a shaper that does not have such galling... Perhaps the ones with auto lubrication fare better, provided the auto lube works..
Karl Robbers 30th November 2014, 10:30 PM She has got auto lube and it works really well now. I am guessing that it became blocked at some stage as the galling is only on one side and not over the whole length.
Karl Robbers 30th November 2014, 10:41 PM Taper how?
Picture a billet of rectangular bar stock 500 long indexed so as the long axis is in line with the ram stroke. I machined one face and then rotated the bar so that that face was now downwards and snug down on the base of the vice so as to machine the second face parallel to the first. The end at the extreme end of the stroke measures .4mm greater than the near end, suggesting possible droop in the table or some other misalignment. I didn't have time to properly set up dial indicators etc to properly trace the problem.
Those with a keen eye will also notice that the finish is ot what it should be. That actually only occurred on the last cut, before that I was quite impressed with the finish produced.
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