Skelton Saws U.K

[planemaker]

New Saw Maker in the U.K. At this stage he is only offering a Dovetail Saw. (uk $245.00)

Here is the introductory post he forwarded on the U.K Hand Tool Forum Site.

Good Morning All! (Have already typed this once and sent, whether it's just gone to one person?! Apologies!) I am very interested to read all of your comments both tool and non-tool related. Glad that most of you liked the look of the saw, as you might expect it is probably better to be seen for real and held in the hand. The 'hang' of a saw (The angle of the handle in respect to the blade) is often overlooked, but it is paramount to the correct operation of the saw and the cut in question. This is a dedicated dovetail saw and is set up with the average height woodworker and workbench in mind. Remember that over the last few centuries people have got taller and benches have matched this. I do find that nowadays dedicated saw types often use the same handle set and the same hang for ease of manufacturing techniques...I am of course different as all of my work is done by hand. We all get used to using the same tools, but often when we try a real dedicated tool for that job even our old tools can then seem awkward. I am able to customise my saws to any requirement or need. I am sure that he won't mind me saying but Chris Tribe has rather large hands! Whilst the fit of the handle of the dovetail saw is M-L, I do however have a pattern which accommodates the larger hand - nothing is impossible- just ask. With regards to the price- I do believe that the quality of the materials, the attention to detail and the amount of hours that go into each saw (roughly 20 hrs) does justify this price. I'm am pretty much working for not much more than the minimum wage! I could easily bang out some manufactured saws, but that's just not me. Again, I have considered an entry level saw at a cheaper price, but I am a craftsman and a perfectionist and therefore would find it difficult to compromise on the finish. To put things in perspective some of you may be looking at this on a smartphone and we all know how expensive some of those can be. This saw will live beyond numerous generations of cracked screens! (By the way I don't believe the website is mobile compatible - it's cheap and cheerful for now, informative and just a presence) Hopefully people will save up for a saw - it's British, handmade and therefore pretty unique in this age. I am passionate about quality tools and therefore regardless of the price tag, I would only create something that I myself would wish to own. Hopefully, in the coming year you may get the chance to see and have a go with one for real. I could probably send one out on a short loan if there are any groups that would like to try one out - let me know. Thank you all for your interest kind regards Shane

http://skeltonsaws.co.uk/our-products/





(http://skeltonsaws.co.uk/our-products/)

[DSEL74]

Looks like a very high standard of fit and finish from the photo.

[planemaker]

Hi Dale. It does look well made. Price is a little concerning. Add in the exchange rate and its close to (au)$450.00 + shipping.

Stewie;

[IanW]

I agree. Not a bad little saw, but out of the average punter's price range, I fear. Looks like you'll just have to keep on making your own, Stewie! :U

Cheers,

[Simplicity]

Great looking saw.
I love the large small medallion.
That looks fantastic.
The price is high for us buts it only about 4 days work for average person on and average wage there.
Going on 26,000 pound average yearly wage ?
But if I wrong please correct me there

[DSEL74]

I agree the saw is expensive, but he is trying to make a commercial venture out of it and claims it takes at least 20hrs to make as he is a perfectionist, at that he is barely making minimum wage. He also mentions how many of us have expensive mobile phones well over that value that we upgrade regularily. The saw on the other hand should last more than one life time.

I guess it all comes down to perception and a value judgement……I'm still not convinced to pay that much personally.

[Simplicity]

No you personally should not be paying that much Dale
You should be making one lol

[DSEL74]

No you personally should not be paying that much Dale
You should be making one lol

Just one???

[Simplicity]

Maybe a few them you never can have to many fine dovetail saws

[IanW]

Maybe a few them you never can have to many fine dovetail saws

Depends whether you want to use them or just look at them, I reckon. :U

I went a bit hog-wild when I first started making saws, and ended up with about 4 dovetail saws. Not only did I have to make a decision every time I needed a D/T saw, I had to keep them all sharp & ready to go. Soon got tired of that, so I had a ruthless cull, just as I'd done with my bench planes a good many years back, and now I have just one D/T saw (well, there's one in reserve that I'm keeping in case one of my offspring or step-offspring suddenly gets passionate about w/working, and I do have one or two other backsaws :;). It works much better for me this way; I have become so familiar with my little dovetailer that I can almost cut dovetails with my eyes closed, and when it gets dull, I just pause for 10 minutes to sharpen it, & carry on. However, you have to make and use a few dovetail saws before you figure out exactly what suits you, so I suppose there's naught for it than to buckle down & make a heap of saws, Dale.....
:U
Cheers,

[Simplicity]

I think in essence Ian is saying pick a good tool then know how to use it with your eyes closed.
Or till you become one with the tool.
Ian I agree whole heartedly with what your saying.
In my first year as a panel beater with a great boss he told me to pick three hammers two dollies and one body file.
It was is 3,2,1 rule and it worked well.
Edit point I finished panel beating after 15 years with around 20 hammers and dollies and a few body fillies lol

[RayG]

I like his style and craftsmanship, the rounded boss, reminds me of the early Kenyon style, there looks to be a slight cant to the blade, the only thing I might be a little critical of is the width of the spine, it looks a little wide, but that's just a minor detail.

Price is probably about what is needed from a business point of view.. Too dear for me, but then again.. I'm not the target market. :D

Ray

[rob streeper]

I think his price is probably in line with his hours and wage comments. I've gotten much faster at making saws, my most recent pair have been done in a week of afternoons with 1.5 afternoons off for weather or about twelve hours per saw using backs and handle blanks that I had already made up.
Lie Nielsen dovetail saws are $125 plus shipping. While they're very nice saws they are machine made with all of the requisite expedients and shortcuts that mass production dictates. Judged on purely utilitarian grounds they are all that is needed and they look good too but they're not hand made.

[Ron Bontz]

Very nice design. Looks to be about a 45* hang. My compliments.

[IanW]

Very nice design. Looks to be about a 45* hang. My compliments.

Well, I will be the dissenting voice on this, Ron. I think the hang angle is way off for a dovetail saw. That angle is fine for a carcase saw used at about bench height with a bench hook, for e.g., but it just doesn't suit the way I use a dovetail saw.

This is my reasoning. Most of us will position the point at which the cuts are to be made up as high as practicable, so we can see the lines. Nine times out of ten, I find that the compromise between having it high enough to see easily, & far enough away to use a comfortable stroke has me holding the saw with my forearm pretty well parallel with the floor. Hold a stick in your hand with your forearm in that position, and hold your wrist in the 'neutral' position, i.e. not rotated up or down. Unless your anatomy is way off the standard curve, I'll bet you find the stick is making an angle somewhere around 75 degrees to the horizontal. Take a look at an old Disston or just about any other tenon saw from 70-plus years ago & you'll find that the grip makes just about that same angle to the tooth line. So my favourite dovetail saw has a grip angle that is 25 degrees off vertical, or 75 degrees relative to the tooth line: 333335

As you can see, this angle means the bottom of the grip is below the tooth line on a small saw like this, so you can't use it on a flat surface like a carcase saw. That's a trade-off I'm happy to make, because this saw is used solely for cutting d/tails & small tenons, where the work is held up away from the bench, and in that position, it's just so natural & comfortable to use.

I'm sure other mileages will vary, but that's my story.....

Cheers,

[RayG]

I'm going to disagree, Ian, ( very politely ) The hang angle is more a function of blade length than anything else, I try to visualise a line through the middle of the tooth line to the center of the hand..

Or if you like, take a traditional 3 finger grip, then look where the index finger is pointing, it should be pointing to the center of the tooth line..

Happy to hear alternative views.. :D

Ray

[IanW]

Ray, I think you have a point, though the relationship to the tooth line in my view is more about getting the power to the people teeth, whereas the grip angle is all about getting that power transmitted comfortably. It's interesting that I only began to consider comfort and the relationship of handles to anatomical limitations in the last 15 years or so, but ageing joints & tendons have a way of altering one's awareness! So now I look at the grip angle first, to set my wrist up so it's working in the most comfortable way, in the position I will use the saw most often. Of course there has to be compromises, because our arms are jointed levers, and we have to make constant adjustments to the bits of our arms to keep the saw moving in a straight line as the arm is extend. Our ability to apply even power for the full stroke involves a lot of computations and smooth adjustments up there in the grey matter! That means the relationships between all of the components has to be a compromise. Throw in individual body shapes and preferences and it all gets too hard to make more than general rules, for me. I have arrived at certain grip angles by trial and error (especially the latter!), but it's interesting to me that my preferred grip angles tend to roughly match those on several very old saws I've had or used. I'd like to think it's not just because I got used to those handles, but maybe it is. I'll have to think about it some more... :?

Anyone else want to chip into the debate? :U

Cheers,

[planemaker]

Hi Ian, I am in the same school of thought as Ray on this one. That there is a direct relationship between the hang of the handle and the length of the blade. Where I would differ slightly with Ray is that I prefer the index finger points more towards the front toe of the toothline than towards the centre. But in saying this, I also acknowledge Rays practice does offer some other positives to the performance and feel of the backsaw.

Stewie;

[hiroller]

There is also the height of the handle in relation to the spine.
So a handle with more hang and set higher may still have your finger pointing at the same spot on the toothline as a handle with less hang and set lower.
Combine this with different amount of cant to the blade and quite differently configured saws may be quite similar in feel.

[IanW]

There is also the height of the handle in relation to the spine.
So a handle with more hang and set higher may still have your finger pointing at the same spot on the toothline as a handle with less hang and set lower.
Combine this with different amount of cant to the blade and quite differently configured saws may be quite similar in feel.

Well, that is precisely why I take a different approach. :U

I don't want my saws to be similar in feel, I want 'em to feel like they are just right for what they get used for. I really don't mind all that much where my index finger is pointing, so long as it has something to rest against & is out of harm's way. What's important to me is that my wrist is neither twisted up nor down on the majority of power strokes, but is straight, & all those carpal bones are absorbing the force evenly. Since I use different saws in different positions, I want grip angles to suit.

Maybe it's the biologist's vs the engineer's mindset?

Setting hang angles the way Ray & Stewie do is going to give you a set of saws that have a common 'feel', perhaps, & if that's your main goal, then all is good. As I always say, whatever works for you, works.....
:U
Cheers,

[derekcohen]

Well, I'll chip in with a third view: the hang angle is a function of where we wish to direct the effort in pushing the saw.

The hang angle of a 9" dovetail saw does not alter when the plate becomes 12". It alters with the rake and size of the teeth, because these determine the function of the saw. The hang for a tenon saw will be different to a dovetail saw ... if the teeth on a dovetail saw are, say, 15 ppi and zero degrees of rake, while the tenon saw is 10 ppi and 10 degree of rake. You would want to lower the hang angle for the latter, not simply for the length of the plate, but because it is easier to push.

On a light dovetail saw, such as the Gramercy, the hang is higher than average. This directs more downforce without extra effort, keeping the saw light. This is needed in a saw which is not just light, but also has a high tooth count (19 ppi).

At the end of the day it is all about balance and control - a bit more here and a bit less there .. :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[IanW]

Interesting - that now makes three quite different philosophies behind determining grip angles. This discussion so far has shown there's a much broader school of thought behind what I thought was a fairly straightforward bit of applied biomechanics. Looks like I was dead wrong (again!). :U

I'd not even considered Derek's point of the grip angle affecting the pressure that can be applied, before. Of course it will, now I think about it, but it isn't something I would have consciously sought to build-in when setting up a handle. Having a father, & other old blokes who would sternly admonish us for 'leaning' on any saw in my impressionable youth, light cutting pressure is something I'm very careful of, & I expect a saw to cut pretty much 'under its own weight'. Of course a small saw won't entirely, about the only saw that really does that is a thumping great 8 footer docking a felled log. There is always some downward force applied, no matter how lightly you think you saw, but I find a saw cuts best (& is far less likely to bind if lightly set) if you keep that pressure to a minimum. When I find a saw needs conscious pressure to cut, I reckon it's high time to get out the file.

A handle designed to minimise pressure transfer might be preferable to me in some situations. :U Dunno, but it's one more aspect to explore......

Hmmm, just as I was about to hit 'send', I thought of at least one situation that makes a liar of me, already. When starting a horizontal cut on a wide board, where you can't or don't want to angle the saw to start on an edge (e.g., cutting the sides for a sliding dovetail against a guide), it takes extra pressure to make the saw cut & keep it to the line. There are probably other situations I can't think of, immediately, but that's enough to show there are no absolutes in this life! :C
Cheers,

[planemaker]

The close interaction between hang angle and the length of the saw plate is explained very well by Isaac Smith on his web site.

http://www.blackburntools.com/blog/concerning-hang-angles-and-saw-handles/

http://www.blackburntools.com/blog/further-discussion-of-hang-angles/

Stewie;

[Ron Bontz]

As all have pointed out. This is one of those discussions that is never resolved to the complete satisfaction of all. There are many variables as to what hang angle a particular person desires with respect to their own body mechanics and preferences. This is exactly why I make three different hang angle dovetail saws. 45, 38*, and 32*. When sitting at my bench, I prefer my 32*, standing up right --my 45* and if leaning forward the 38*. I am not such an expert at dovetails as to have a specific preference at this point. No doubt because I spend more time making them than using them. :( So one must always consider the hang angle and how aggressive you wish your saw to be, when determining what rake to file the teeth. With respect to the thrust vectors involved there is also a pic or two of the difference on my web site under "Ramblings" My apologies I no longer have much written on the subject. Updating some of the site. But the jist is: If all other things are equal ( rake, fleam, set ) the 45* hang is the most aggressive, the 38* next, and the 32* the least aggressive. Again... assuming all other variables being equal. So, is it any wonder there are so many different hang angles on saws? Either way I do like the design of the Skelton saw. It will be interesting to see where he/ she takes the larger saws. But it is definitely more Euro than Western to my eyes. Partly due to the hang angle, I suppose. I certainly wish him/her well. Best wishes, Ron

[derekcohen]

Thanks for those links for Isaac, Stewie. I am right in the middle of a similar article, but for handplanes. You may (or not!) recall that I have written (http://http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Commentary/Index.html) on this subject before for both backsaws and handplanes. It is a topic of great interest to me. More later.

Essentially, Isaac 's views and mine overlap. We both consider the interaction important between force vectors and the angle the saw plate is held relative to the rake of the teeth.

Edit: Ron's post and mine overlapped, so I will include him here as well. Hi Ron!

Regards from Perth

Derek

[planemaker]

Good to know its been of assistance to you Derek.

I dont recall reading your entry on backsaws but when I get the time I will have a look at it.

regards; Stewie.

[rob streeper]

... recall that I have written (http://http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Commentary/Index.html) on this subject before for both backsaws and handplanes.

Hi Derek, Your link isn't working.
Thanks,
Rob

[planemaker]

Hi Rob. The link is working fine for me.

Stewie;

[IanW]

I've already said my piece, so this is my last post on the subject - promise! :U

While in general I think it's pretty reasonable, it seems to me there are a couple of inconsistencies in Mr. Smiths monograph. What I find most puzzling is that he shows two very similar sawing stances (for different saws), but calls one wrong & the other right. :?

At the risk of being a tedious bore, I think everything he concludes can be equally covered by my hypothesis that you set the hang angle for a 'neutral' wrist when the saw is held in the position where it will be most commonly used. It will still be useable in other positions, just not as comfortably or 'naturally'. Try this for yourself: if you have normal joint mobility, you will find twisting your wrist down from the neutral position is easier, and it has a greater range than twisting it the opposite way. So it will be easier to use a saw that is hung a little too high (i.e. the handle is rotated more towards a horizontal position), than too low for the specific task(s).

Point two is that you should most certainly get your body into a comfortable position if you plan to saw for more than a few minutes. 'Comfortable' for me means my back is reasonably relaxed & not stooped anything like to the degree in Isaac's pics. Maybe it's my more advanced years, but I would soon have a n'orrible sore back if I was to work as shown in a couple of his illustrations for very long! :o The sort of sawing we're talking about here is pretty much all arm action, you don't add any significant momentum from your upper body, unlike when using a bench plane, so you don't need to 'put your back into it' as you do for a bench plane, for e.g.

Point three. On varying tooth rake angles to control bite. This has been done since forever, but hitherto I have always thought of it as primarily to control bite in harder and softer woods. You could certainly use rake angles to alter 'bite' to compensate to some extent for a mismatched handle, but I think I'd probably change the handle, first...

OK. I promise to be quiet.....
Cheers,

[RayG]

Hi Rob. The link is working fine for me.

Stewie;

Hmm.. didn't work for me either, but then I noticed a colon missing in the url just after the http.. try this one. http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Commentary/


Back on topic.. I think it would be a good exercise to do a graph of hang angle vs length of historical saws, and see how much scatter there is, I see the effect of stance, work height, rake angles etc, as all important factors but second order effects when compared to the primary variable which is blade length..

When the blade length is very short, the second order factors become larger, so I think we see more variability in hang angles with 8" dovetail saws, than we do in say 14" tenon saws.

Interesting subject, but at the end of the day, it's what works best that counts.

Ray

[rob streeper]

Hmm.. didn't work for me either, but then I noticed a colon missing in the url just after the http.. try this one. http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Commentary/


Back on topic.. I think it would be a good exercise to do a graph of hang angle vs length of historical saws, and see how much scatter there is, I see the effect of stance, work height, rake angles etc, as all important factors but second order effects when compared to the primary variable which is blade length..

When the blade length is very short, the second order factors become larger, so I think we see more variability in hang angles with 8" dovetail saws, than we do in say 14" tenon saws.

Interesting subject, but at the end of the day, it's what works best that counts.

Ray

Ray,

Thanks, your link works for me. The center of effort and it's vector components relative to the ever changing friction point of the tooth line as it passes through the work piece are major factors in handsaw design.

I think that such an analysis would be multivariate and include additional factors such as:

1) Work height relative to personal factors such as center of mass, height of elbow relative to the tooth line, height of shoulder relative to tooth line.

2) Pitch of saw teeth

3) Rake of saw teeth

4) Hardness of wood to be cut

5) Moisture content of the wood

6) Flexibility of the blade

7) Smoothness of cut desired, acceptability of blow-outs, etc.

8) Set of teeth / kerf width / filed tooth characteristics

9) Center of mass of the saw

10) Length of tooth line

11) Desired rate of cut, quick and rough or slow and smooth?

12) Personal preferences

13) ???

So it is likely that rather than hard-and-fast rules dictating the right or wrong way to set up a saw there will be regions of more or less acceptable set up factors. I think that these regions of acceptability are evidenced in the diversity of opinions expressed on this and other related threads on this website but more substantively in the diversity of saw designs that have passed down to us from our forefathers in saw making.

Cheers,
Rob

[planemaker]

Hi Rob. Your list reminds me of the old saying. "If you just want a straight answer, dont talk to an engineer." :charley:

Stewie;

[Ron Bontz]

It never ceases to amaze me how people can say essentially the same thing in so many different ways. :) "That's all I got to say about that" ( Forest Gump ) Happy holidays to all.

[rob streeper]

Also need to consider the rocking motion of the tooth line relative to the cut line through the stroke.

[planemaker]

Drill Sergeant (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0648416/?ref_=tt_trv_qu): Gump! What's your sole purpose in this army?
Forrest Gump (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000158/?ref_=tt_trv_qu): To do whatever you tell me, drill sergeant!
Drill Sergeant (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0648416/?ref_=tt_trv_qu): God damn it, Gump! You're a god damn genius! This is the most outstanding answer I have ever heard. You must have a goddamn I.Q. of 160. You are goddamn gifted, Private Gump. Listen up, people... :o:o:o:o:o:o

[DSEL74]

I think the true outcome of this discussion is you can't produce a fixed set of parameters for all users, there are too many variables to consider and if you are only going to have one or two dovetails saws then you either need to use them in the exact same scenario every time or they will no longer be the perfect set up.

You may design the saw around the ergonomics of a particular person, the size & type of timber being used, but if they change work bench, or have the work held in a different manner then it all goes out the window again. The other factor is muscle memory if you learn to saw in a particular fashion be it best practise or not that will influence what suits you best.

So design to the best intention within a range and avoid the obviously ridiculous.


Therefore what feels best and works best for you is best in that case.

[IanW]

......Therefore what feels best and works best for you is best in that case...

amen......

:U

[Simplicity]

Second to the AMEN


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