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View Full Version : Which welder to get ?



croc
8th July 2005, 09:21 AM
Any assistance would be appreciated. I have narrowed down that a gas/gasless Mig would be suitable for small all round jobs around the house & a beginner like me, C section, gal steel etc. I'm tossing up whether to get a new SIP 150 Turbo Mig for $600 or a WIA 150 Mig, 9 years old, looks hardly used for about $600 to $700, are the WIA that much better ?

I need to decide quickly, or lose the opportunity to buy. Also, I'm open to suggestions, if I should be looking at an Arc Welder instead ? That's about the maximum dollars I want to spend. Thanks.

JDarvall
8th July 2005, 10:13 AM
I'm not a welder by trade or anything......but if its just small jobs around the house ......really just a cheapy arc welders the go I reakon.......I've got a GMC $100 one .....took some practise to use well though.....and you often have to grind away the splatter afterwards.......but if all your interested in is strong welds and appearence is not important I'd just buy a arc welder and save a few hundred dollars.

I find the frustrating thing with welding is just seeing what your doing........if you set up one area in your shed just for welding with a powerful light right in close no probs,,,,and a cheapy fan to blow the fumes away,,,or else you'll feel a little crook,,,and a rip of dark material tucked into your helmet to block out any light that sneaks in through the back and your set......I reakon

glock40sw
8th July 2005, 10:37 AM
G'day.
I got a CIG Transmig 165.
It's about 6 months old.
I ran it on gasless for awhile but didn't like the spatter.
I now run it on Liquidaire Migshield gas with 0.6 wire.
Goes like a dog shot up the date.
Bloody great welder.

The only down side is the cost of bottle rental (thieving mongrels).
about $75 to refill and rental of $123 per year.

However, for outdoor use I still use .9 gasless wire.
The 165 has 6 voltage settings and has a 3 metre handpiece lead.

If fact it is going to get a workout today when I finish work. I have to built a splashback for me Metal lathe.

Hope this helps.

Hooroo.
Regards, Trevor
Grafton

P.S. Blackwood have them on special in their latest catalogue About $850.

Andy Mac
8th July 2005, 10:56 AM
I have a WIA 150 MIG welder, bought new a year or so back, and love it. The only thing that needed work was the original plastic wheels, which broke under normal use! Rental on gas bottles is a big issue, especially if you don't make money from it.
If you can afford it buy quality, and in this case buy Australian. I have had very litle success with GMC stuff, in the end I curse it and the day I succumbed to saving dollars. I do know mates in various trades who buy GMC for home, and justify it by saying they can get 3 new items for the price of one good one, and when it stuffs up (not if) they race into the shop and grab another. Do you want to deal with that when you need to finish a job?
Chhers,
Andy

Grahame Collins
8th July 2005, 07:23 PM
Croc ,
I have used WIA gear for the best part of thiry five years many of them teaching in Tafe colleges as a metalfab instructor.

I would have WIA over SIP because :

WIA meets all Aus industry standards
Are found in many metal fab shops and Tafes
Spare parts are readily available
Super reliable ie: well made and long lasting
Immune to dunder head apprentices misuse.

SIPS are jumped toys for handymen-while they work ok, they are not well represented in industry. Their spot welder range is OK but their Migs are a different kettle of fish.

no offence meant to current SIP owners

Grahame

outback
8th July 2005, 08:12 PM
I'd like to add something constructive, however all the WIA mig blokes have said all I would anyway.

Get it, ya know ya wanna. :D

JDarvall
8th July 2005, 09:06 PM
Croc ,
I have used WIA gear for the best part of thiry five years many of them teaching in Tafe colleges as a metalfab instructor.

I would have WIA over SIP because :

WIA meets all Aus industry standards
Are found in many metal fab shops and Tafes
Spare parts are readily available
Super reliable ie: well made and long lasting
Immune to dunder head apprentices misuse.

SIPS are jumped toys for handymen-while they work ok, they are not well represented in industry. Their spot welder range is OK but their Migs are a different kettle of fish.

no offence meant to current SIP owners

Grahame
Can never argue with an instructor.......but for my own information.....do you really need a WIA for around the house ?........ my GMC has not shat itself yet.....and its repaired gates, bed frames, cast iron applications of all sorts from garden benches to machine castings in my shed......used to make a multitude of homemade jigs for all sorts of woodworking applications.....ie. around the house stuff ? isn't that what the bloke wants ??? maybe I didn't read it right.....

The only real problems I have had were initially when I bought some ultra cheap welding rods......(from crazy clarks....believe it or not.. I was a complete wally for buying them) they worked but everytime I pulled off a weld they would fail to strike again unless I filed them round again.....pain in the ****......but since then I only use better quality blue 2.5mm and 3.2mm rods .....and lollypops for cast.....

I'd imagine if my job demanded results from a welder then definetly I'd buy quality.......but it doesn't.......if it stuffs up on me and I can't fix it, then I'll just put the job off and do something else and buy another welder next time I'm in town..........still this has never happened yet, touch wood, maybe I just got lucky and got a good cheapie amongst the crap ?? don't know.......

croc
9th July 2005, 08:03 AM
Hi all,

Thanks for all the tips, appreciate it. Some very good advice from both camps & all making very good sense.

I'll post a reply with what I end up buying.

Just a question for apricotripper - Do you use an auto darkening helmet with your arc, or a manual flip down mask ? reason I ask is, a couple of mates reckon, it can be hard to line up the job & be careful not to flash yourself by getting too close to the job, before being ready with the mask. Can be a pain the butt, mind you it could be just technique & getting good at it, I guess ?

Cheers

Grahame Collins
9th July 2005, 09:27 AM
Croc has specifically requested feedback on a choice between MIG,that is wire fedd feed welders OK!
I gave that feed back and Apricottripper is writing about a GMC stick welder.

Cost is more than purchase price .Its about whole of life operating costs and cost of time lost when you really need that consumble part that a vendor can't supply because your cheapy machine is out of production and/or sufficient spares were never provided.
A nine year old WIA will outperform a new Sip $600 model many times over.

My 2cents worth
Grahame

Grahame Collins
9th July 2005, 09:39 AM
Woops , i have been a bit sharpish there Apricotripper, Not long out of bed and no cuppa yet! I did not read all the question myself. My apologies ! It depends on what you are goiing to weld and how often.

3 MM Thinner stuff gas shielded mig - (read expense for cylinder hire and refill)

Slighter thicker say up to 6mm ( gasless mig )

3mm and up to 10mm - (stickwelder.0

No fancy helmet needed . Loosen off the pivots clutches until the helmet just sits up on your head and flick your neck. It only takes practice. safe the dollars for a quality welder. Electric helmets tend get left face down and some richard head grinds into them.
cheers
GRUMPY Grahame

Ashore
9th July 2005, 11:08 AM
Croc
Like The appricot I have a cheep stick welder that does enough for me
Not much use on thin material but I also have the luxury of an oxy set
If I was going to get a welder today however i'd get a mig with gas
Arc welders are good but you need more skill to use and get a good finish
Having only used arc welders at sea I don't have a problem but still need to practise each time I need to use it

As for the auto darkening helmet check the price against how many times you will use it, being an old dinosaur I use a hand held shield because a lot of the welding I have done has been in awkward places on a rolling ship and a helmet was not practiale.

So as usual it comes down to money , what you spend to what you need to what you get. no good buying something you arn't ever happy with or something with all the bells and whistles that you never use. Which doesn't help at all .



Rgds
Russell


Earth is the insane asylum for the universe.

Cagey
9th July 2005, 12:11 PM
Croc, try checking some hire joints out because some upgrade thier machines from time to time, and you can pick up some good quality stuff for a song. The beauty is you know that hire shops only buy reasonable quality in the first place (down time is lost money), so even if they dont have anything to sell you they can steer you in the right direction.

Greolt
9th July 2005, 10:49 PM
Coz this is a subject I can comment on. Been a boilermaker for more years than I want to remember.

Out of the two MIGs I would look seriously at the WIA. Well made, brand name torch (hand piece) probably Binzel.
Make sure the wire feed looks in good shape and cable and torch are OK.

Wouldn't bother with gassless. But cylinder rental is a bummer. .6mm wire is fine for light work. That is all I use at home.

Having said that apricot suckers;) sugestion of a cheap stick welder has some merit for light ocasional use for a hobyist.
100 bucks will get one that will run 12 guage rods and do most small jobs.
However I would always like one that has finely adjustable amps. By that I mean not just a couple of steps by some sort of switch.

Don't know whether the cheap GMC ones have this or not.

I personaly don't like the auto helmets unless you spend about $500 or so for a good one.
But for less experienced welders I guess they are a help.

I would also look for a TAFE hobby course or such like. Welding is one activity that a little instruction will help more than you would expect.

Hope this helps Greolt

Andy Mac
9th July 2005, 11:34 PM
Croc,
We've shared advice on the welder, and started on the helmet!
I've used the 3 basic types; hand held, full-face (usually with flip-up shade) and the auto darkening type and drawn the following conclusions:
1/The hand held is cheap, great for quick jobs and easy to cart about, but I usually need that spare hand when actually welding! Steadying something, sometimes the workpiece and sometimes the torch.
2/The flip up shade is almost essential with arc (stick) welding, as you need eye protection when chipping slag...I can say that after having a doctor remove a piece that burned into my eyeball. No chipping of slag with MIG!
3/The self darkening type are great for someone welding all day for a job. As pointed out they aren't cheap, and prone to damage esp. if left on a work bench. I don't own one, as I'm too tight, but have used one in a work place.

My choice is the "wide view" full face helmet for MIG welding. There are a couple on the market (CIG had one called Omniview), and all have a fixed, large shade or visor, allowing for a better view of the work. When I put on my old flip-up one, it feels really blinkered.

As for not being able to strike acurately because you can't see, that's just practice. A couple of tips though, with the shield up, poise right over the target point with the tip, drop the helmet and strike. Even simpler with a MIG, place the extended wire onto the metal, drop the helmet and press the button ASAP. With the full-face helmet adjust the friction on the pivots so it drops when you nod your head.
Hope I haven't bored you!
Regards,
Andy

JDarvall
10th July 2005, 01:58 AM
Hi all,

Thanks for all the tips, appreciate it. Some very good advice from both camps & all making very good sense.

I'll post a reply with what I end up buying.

Just a question for apricotripper - Do you use an auto darkening helmet with your arc, or a manual flip down mask ? reason I ask is, a couple of mates reckon, it can be hard to line up the job & be careful not to flash yourself by getting too close to the job, before being ready with the mask. Can be a pain the butt, mind you it could be just technique & getting good at it, I guess ?

Cheers

manual flip down masks what I have ...but its no good unless I drape a big old tear of dark blanket over my head, tucked in at the top to keep light out.....I didn't read the rest of the posts properly....so they no doubt given you all you need......your right about flash.....did it to myself a couple of times when first starting.....not good........but the worst thing was the fumes for me.......I got right into it one day......you know I finally worked out how to use the thing with confidence that I just sucked in too many fumes without knowing it......felt like throwing up all night............I haven't had any training, self taught, so I reakon Grahame knows exactly how green I must have looked.......

What works for me is to ensure that everything is set just before you start......the impression I get is that ideally you need 3 hands so you can have everything properly positioned.......and heaps of light right where you want it.....or maybe I've just got a crap helmet, I haven't the experience to know for certain.........but a lot of the frustration is in say being ready to go, everything set (you think) drop the helmet,,,,,and bugger it ,,,everything suddenly Disappears !!!!....and that frustration, I reakon can build into a comedy of errors....and thats definetly not good with the voltages your dealing with.......so what said before, about doing a course,,,,,probably worth it.

Good luck

knucklehead
10th July 2005, 10:27 AM
For what it is worth.

I bought a cheap CIG ($100) stick welder because of the light work that it would be doing. The earth clamp was poor, making the rods stick. After much mucking around to get the earth good I could get good flow. Well good for a couple of minutes until it shut down due to heat.
It was really frustrating so some modifications were in order:
1. Some good quilty leads (texas connectors)
2. a good earth clamp
3. A fan to draw air through the coil.
4. When I pulled the thing apart to put the fan in I found that the current adjusting screw was stopping at about 90%. A simple adjustment now lets the current adjuster get to 100%.
With all of the above the welder now gives respectable welds. The total cost was about $40, because I already had the fan.

I still think that this welder was a good buy. If it died tomorrow I may be tempted to get a nice MIG but its hard to justify for the small amount that it gets used.

Grahame Collins
10th July 2005, 10:57 AM
Honestly people !
Operating a flip helmet is not difficult. After all I have taught first year apprentices who think they know all about helmets.

To begin with make sure uou have a No #10 or 11 lense in your helmet. Hold up the dark lense it should have the filter umber between 10 to 13 branded on it in a light text .You won't see much with any thing darker than an #11

Ensure your clear lense covers are clean as should be your dark filter lense.

I recommend a a skull cap type hat or a baseball hat turned backwards _ then you will look like a first year. Try not to wear a nylon cap as o
it can melt or burn - ouch !

The hat will help to prevent the helmet skidding all over your cranium and protect you from molten spatters which come over the top from time to time.

Adjust the helmet band across the top of the helment to the width of your head- I currently teach high school students and just their sheer laziness stops them from obtaining a comfortable fit. The result is they cant see well enough to weld properly.
Then adjust the tighten / loosen dial ( or snap buttons ) on the rear band at the back until the fit is comfortable

Now adjust the clutch buttons on each side of the helment when the helmet is in the upright position . Tune them to " just hold 'the helmet in the up postion and test with a flick of your head. If correctly set up, your helmet should fall into the place where you can weld . Try it first the the flip up window open and you soon see if your on target.

If not, do the following adjustment.
There is a position tab inside the helmet on one of the clutch screws that give adjustment for final " welding " postion - about four or five holes. Move the hole around onto the suitable peg.

Wear a pair of clear safety glasses under the helmet for goodness sakes. If you helmetdoes not come down ,you will suffer no eye damage from an arc strike.
The preceding instructions will allow you to weld with a hand ( gloved of course ) to support the work you are welding.
I hope this helps you improve your welding.

happy welding
Grahame

Greolt
10th July 2005, 08:33 PM
Agree completely with Grahame re helmets.

I don't doubt there are plenty but I don't personaly know one professional welder that uses an auto darkening job.
My helmet is an old one made of cardboard, yes thats right cardboard.
Had it for many years and guard it jealously, can't get them these days as far as I know.
Why you might ask? Because it is light weight. You try wearing a heavy plastic one all day everyday. Headache Heaven!!
That's why I don't have a flip up lens cover, makes extra weight.

But do take care chipping slag. More eye injuries doing that than anything else.

Anyhow after all that , auto might still be good for a hobbyist.

But give Grahame's method a try easier than you think. All the pros do.

Also don't get hung up on having to start the arc within a thou of the right spot.
As soon as arc starts you can get to the spot almost instantly.

As far as "flash" is concerned don't be too frightened of the ocasional milisecond of flash you might get when starting.
I've had "flash" a few times over the years. Most people who talk about it have never had it and don't even know how it occurs.
You will get flash when you work next to someone welding all day and the damage is done in your perifery (spelling?) vision.
You won't know till the next morning and then you will really know it.
Can't open your eyes, Can't shut them, feels like sand in your eyes with someone grinding it in with their boots. Not pleasant!!

But as I say don't be too worried. You won't get it working on your own on a small welding job.

End Rant, Greolt

croc
24th July 2005, 09:32 AM
G'Day, I ended up getting a Mig - Cigweld, because I want to be able to do some alloy work as well. I couldn't justify WIA, because I'm not a pro & from I can gather the Cigweld are reasonable quality for weekend warriors - one of the major shipbuilders up here (NQEA) use a lot of Cigweld gear, so they can't be too bad.

I just have to learn how to use it properly. Tried yesterday for the first time (gasless wire) & splatter, fart, too much wire, etc. will need to play with wire speed & voltage etc. till I get it right I guess. Is Gas wire better/easier ? anyone have an opinion here ? Also, I managed to cut through 2mm steel, so I guess my amps was too high ?

Cheers

Schtoo
24th July 2005, 10:46 AM
Get some gas. Just live with the expense because you will spend more in aspirin when using gasless wire than what the gas bottle and rental would cost.

Also means that once the weld is finished, it's finished. No need to clean it up, provided you can live with a bead there.

I bought a SIP mig, the smaller animal. Switches for the current, dial for the feed. Once I learned how to drive it, it was great. Even with the dinky handpiece, once I learned how to drive it, as good, if not better than a big buck unit.

Pre and post gas as you want it is a good thing, especially when when the trigger starts the gas, then starts the wire with a little more pressure. ;)

I don't know how good Cigweld stuff is anymore. I know that if I were back home, I wouldn't hesitate buying it, only because I wouldn't buy it off the shelf, andf if there was a problem, the guy who prototyped it could fix it for me. :)

journeyman Mick
24th July 2005, 11:37 PM
Croc,
if you want to use your mig for ally then you'll need to replace the steel liner in the handpiece/lead with a plastic one and use the appropriate gas (different to that used for steel). You'll find that using gas gives a cleaner weld with almost no splatter but is almost impossible to do outside on a windy day.

Mick

2shane
5th November 2006, 04:53 PM
See the auto darkening lenses are built like thus.

They are composed of a usually tinted layer of plastic or glass, that provides UV and Infrared protection..

The lense when not activated, then allows a higher degree of "filtered" light through than what a conventional stained glass lense allows.

However when an arc is struck, the semi-opaque (flat) crystals (like microscopic mica flakes) in the Liquid Crystal Screen, then change orientation, kind of like a slat window, to then pass the high brightness light of the arc through a dimming medium...(the crystals)

This all occours within about ).0001 of a second.

What happens when tho, is that sometimes bcause of the position of the torch , ones hand or work piece, is that it may block enough light from reaching the solar cells, and the crystals either don't orientate to filter the light or they reorientat to being "off" and mostly translucent.

One does not get flashed, rather one gets "lighted" too much, to actually see the arc "welding".

I am not one for saying "cheap filters" are ####, nor supporting these arguments or opinions.

Since no one here has performed light meter tests for optical penetration at both luminosity and at specific frequencies, and the activation times, and can present the evidence, I rest my case.

Further to this, since the arbitrary value of electric lenses is also open to some debate, given that the field is populated by three ends of the spectrum. First we have fair quality, at a fair price, then we have the junk part at a high price and a high quality part at the bargain price.

So unless one knows the proven standard of a particular part, and it's manufactuating price, and to then follow the mark ups through the distribution networks, then it may prove to be a fact that a bargain electric helmet, may in fact be pretty good and the quite higly priced one may be it's eqivalent or less; or a quite highly priced one may be of an excellent overall quality, and the cheap one may be junk.

Facts over ride opinions anyday, however, the willingness or ability to prove ones case is usually absent or unable to be done.

I am also a bit of a contender for the challenge of confronting the enrenched status quo.

Sure the old real welders do use the crap glass lenses, cause they are brainwashed with the "this is the way we have always done it" mindset.

Sure I bet most of them can weld and superbly so.

However just because of the accepted practice of using pox glass lenses is entrenched in the Australian welding industry, does not mean it's the case for the rest of the world, nor does it mean that this will continue to remain the case.

Glass lenses are CHEAP, which is their #1 advantage; but as the prices and competative sales of the electric lenses are driving the costs down, the really nice lenses (read EXPENSIVE) such as ESAB and the such like, come out of their loft domains, as the manufacturers of China undercut their sales, through the delivery of an excellent product at very low prices, then the european prices will have to drop - or be priced out of the market.

But when one lists the advantages and disadvantages of each type of welding lense, then the electric lenses come out way in front.

Such as electrics allow a full and clear view of the job at all times, they also allow full use of both hands when welding...

The disadvantages of glass lenses are the restriction of vision, the inability to use both hands and the damage to neck nerves from flicking ones head, when you can't close the cover with a hand.

I also tend to hate people who voice unqualified opinions in formums, who have nothing but opinions - try reading the instrutions that come with the electric lenses.. before you even dare to comment upon the subject.

"Life is like being in an unfamiliar place and having to ask directions.. There are lots of people who either don't know, or think they know, and then there are few who actually do know."

Shane T. Hanson

duckman
5th November 2006, 05:05 PM
I also tend to hate people who voice unqualified opinions in formums, who have nothing but opinions - try reading the instrutions that come with the electric lenses.. before you even dare to comment upon the subject.
Shane T. Hanson
Not as much as I hate smart a*se, self important loud mouths who spam boards by posting the same thing in multiple forums and who can't spell.

Give it a rest, sport. You're not impressing anyone here.

Groggy
5th November 2006, 05:51 PM
Gents, there is no need to take this to a personal level. Have an opinion if you like, but please don't attack others. While we are discussing reading instructions though, please read this (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=321784#post321784).

Groggy
Moderator

Schtoo
6th November 2006, 01:12 AM
Groggy, you got gonged too? :eek:

Anyway, I can't read that because it won't let me. :D


Another option is to use 'the gump button', also known as 'ignore this user'. Simple and effective. :cool:

It's just an opinion, or is it a fact? I wouldn't know... :confused:


(If the rep system had any bite left in it, I might find it good time to use it right about now. Hint, hint. :rolleyes: )

Grahame Collins
6th November 2006, 08:55 AM
On Nov 5th
Shane wrote

[ QUOTE] Sure the old real welders do use the crap glass lenses, cause they are brainwashed with the "this is the way we have always done it" mindset [QUOTE]

First of all whats this old stuff. Here is newsflash for you Shane.I haven't used crap glass lenses in years. No mindset here young fella.High impact plastics have been the go for a long time now. Most of us dinosauars tried out the A.D. helmet when the came it and found a number of inherent problems, some of which have not been addressed to this day.

They are
Welding is an occupation that is very tough on equipment especially helmets.
A helmet not only needs to survive the basic welding,but also an range of other damaging activities
Being used by persons other than its owner and subjected to various ill treatments :
Being used as a grinding shield.
Left lying unused face down where a stream of grinding sparks find their way into the electrics.
When a replacable lense is needed they are also expensive and not readily available.
A twenty dollars faceshield however is readily replacable down to its component parts.It takes seconds to replace or clean a lense.
I prefer the older style helmet but use electronic ones in given situations.

In regards to the procedure for lowering the helmet its quite simple.
I would simply suggest that many that can't master this simple action will be hard put in achieving the welding and fabricating skill levels needed in todays modern industries.The mindset mentioned is quite the reverse with some operators unable to weld with out their crutch.

I have taught welding to AS 1796 levels and less than 1% of those hundreds of students used an electronic helmet.Those that did had them purchased by the employer.

If you realy need an AD helmet make sure it has an ANSI Z87.1 Those ones I have bear this.

I hope this helps a few people
Grahame
Real and not so old welder

China
6th November 2006, 10:18 PM
I have used both my eltronic helmet sits on the shelf, I find my flip up with gold ominview much better but then I'm probably classed as one of those real old welders

Chris Parks
7th November 2006, 11:11 PM
What works for me is to ensure that everything is set just before you start......the impression I get is that ideally you need 3 hands so you can have everything properly positioned.......and heaps of light right where you want it.....or maybe I've just got a crap helmet, I haven't the experience to know for certain.........but a lot of the frustration is in say being ready to go, everything set (you think) drop the helmet,,,,,and bugger it ,,,everything suddenly Disappears !!!!....

Try a lighter shade of lens, I think you will be amazed at the difference.