What is sanding sealer

[jabell]

For the first time today I used some sanding sealer, Feast Watson at $12.50 a cup full. Yikes!
But it is good.
Does anyone know what it is? It looks/smells to me like some sort of matt varnish/estapol product. Are there any good or at least reasonable alternatives that are not $12.50/cup?

Also, what is its purpose? If the timber is to be painted, what is it doing that say pink primer doesn't? Is it instead only for use when a clear finish is to be used later?

[dai sensei]

The raise the grain and seal the fibres. Usually made from diluted primary products like lacquers or shellacs. Many contain powders to fill the grain too, although often white, so look like crap on dark timbers IMHO. No need if you are going to paint, primer will do t for you.

[powderpost]

Sanding sealers are used to fill the grain in open grain timbers. In the past whiting (a white powder like powdered chalk) was mixed with turpentine and coloured with ochres or other colouring pigments to match the colour of the wood. Good for single species projects. If different coloured species are used, a clear filler is needed to fill the pores before clear polishing with surface coats like lacquer or varnishes.

There is different types, one is water based, another is turps based and a third is spirit based. The fillers are usually rubbed on with a coarse cloth, like hessian, then sanded back to the wood so that the only the filler in the grain is left behind. These were a pain to sand. Water based fillers will raise the grain and are not suitable if a lacquer is used as a coating.

Sanding sealer is a term used for modified grain fillers that are easy to sand. These can be applied with a spray gun or with a coarse cloth on small jobs. Current sanding sealers are much easier to use and dry clear even though they look white.

Grain fillers are not needed when painting as undercoats do the same job.

Hope this helps you understand.

Jim

[jabell]

Thanks guys - you have both been very helpful!

[Mobyturns]

http://www.duspec.com.au/duspec/file/AUDW0744.pdf shows it is turps based suited for FW oil based & polyurethane finishes.

http://msds.orica.com/pdf/shess-en-cds-010-000000001280.pdf gives you the material safety data sheet with safety cautions and a very loose ingredient composition - up to 70% solvents.

Sanding sealer is only one part of the finishing routine but should be compatible with the finish you wish to use. Not much point using this product if you wish to paint balusters with an oil or acrylic based opaque finish - just wasting money.

[jabell]

Interesting reading, but as you say, no secret ingredients being revealed!
At least I learnt that I shouldn't drink it!

[Blarney]

http://www.ubeaut.com.au/sandseal.htm

[issatree]

Hi jabell,
We used to make our own.
NL 22 Thinners from Hayme's Paints & some of the white Polystyrene Foam, & the Thinners just melts the Foam.
Depends how much foam you use as to the thickness of the Liquid.
Hard part was to guess how much to make.
Not sure of the cost of the Thinners , but it lasted a long time = months.
Worked very well, at the time.

[mark david]

Hi, to be honest I think it is a total waste of time and money for most things,especially at that price.
It can be useful if you are doing some inlay marquetry work which may combine light and dark timbers where sanding may cause the dark inlay to discolour the light inlay.

If you really need to use it then just use good old fashined shellac as it works fine and is also usefull to seal knots in pine if want to paint over them.

I have made loads of furniture and other items over the years and don't think I have ever bothered to use it.

[jabell]

Hi jabell,
We used to make our own.
NL 22 Thinners from Hayme's Paints & some of the white Polystyrene Foam, & the Thinners just melts the Foam.
Depends how much foam you use as to the thickness of the Liquid.
.
PolyStyrene? What made you think to add that? Presumably out of all the possible materials to use, you must have had some informed idea that it would work and be useful? What was it like in setting and sanding?
As a guide, how much would you add to say 250ml of thinners?

[dai sensei]

Hi jabell,
We used to make our own.
NL 22 Thinners from Hayme's Paints & some of the white Polystyrene Foam, & the Thinners just melts the Foam.
Depends how much foam you use as to the thickness of the Liquid.
Hard part was to guess how much to make.
Not sure of the cost of the Thinners , but it lasted a long time = months.
Worked very well, at the time.

Hmm, sounds more like log end sealer, never heard of it being used for sanding sealer

[Mobyturns]

PolyStyrene? What made you think to add that? Presumably out of all the possible materials to use, you must have had some informed idea that it would work and be useful? What was it like in setting and sanding?
As a guide, how much would you add to say 250ml of thinners?

This was popular in the 1980's and is not very healthy for you! OldCroc may want to add to this one, as we have discussed the very real effects on turners from prolonged use of dissolved polystyrene as a sealer & finish.

Styrene is a strongly suspected as a human carcinogen and is known to be toxic to the nervous system and respiratory tract. Known to cause severe irritation & damage to skin & eyes.

Definitely do your research before you consider using this tip!!! Best to avoid this one altogether as there are much safer alternatives available.


I'm no chemist but by dissolving the polystyrene you are effectively reversing the polymerization process to use liquid styrene - MSDS is here https://www.amsa.gov.au/environment/maritime-environmental-emergencies/national-plan/supporting-documents/documents/Styrene%20%28monomer%29%20MSDS.pdf

[jabell]

Styrene is a strongly suspected as a human carcinogen and is known to be toxic to the nervous system and respiratory tract. Known to cause severe irritation & damage to skin & eyes.

Um, well, that's it, no polystyrene for me!:U
A sealer to die for? Not that important me thinks.
Thanks for the info!

[ubeaut]

Used a bit of it back in the early 80's but only on very rare occasions.

There were a number of names for this made up sealer:

The common man used PSBG sealer (Poly Styrene Bear Glass)

The yuppy latte sipper set used PSCC sealer (Poly Styrene Coffee Cup)
The better class of people uses PSWG sealer (Poly Styrene Wine Glass)
Me I used PSVB sealer (Poly Styrene Veggie Box)


The info in Moby's post is right on. It really ain't good for ya. :C

By the way..... Neither is Cyanoacrilate when used as a finish on the lathe. We have received a lot of calls from people over the last 6 months who have changed to our products after becoming ill from using Super Glue as a finish on the lathe.
Theory goes that almost anything with strong, acrid, aromatics, will be a health hazard to some degree from mild to deadly. :death:

Cheers - Neil :U

[rob streeper]

Um, well, that's it, no polystyrene for me!:U
A sealer to die for? Not that important me thinks.
Thanks for the info!

Styrene is the monomer, very chemically reactive and thus very toxic. Polystyrene is polymerized, no detectable monomer remains. Only toxic if you burn it or if something toxic has been added to it. Dissolving it does not reverse the polymerization. The acetone is more toxic than is the dissolved polystyrene.

[Mobyturns]

Styrene is the monomer, very chemically reactive and thus very toxic. Polystyrene is polymerized, no detectable monomer remains. Only toxic if you burn it or if something toxic has been added to it. Dissolving it does not reverse the polymerization. The acetone is more toxic than is the dissolved polystyrene.

After reading Rob's reply I did further research - turns out my memory of senior chemistry was wrong about reversing the polymerization process. My memory of the hazards of using Styrene were correct.


Styrene is a strongly suspected as a human carcinogen and is known to be toxic to the nervous system and respiratory tract. Known to cause severe irritation & damage to skin & eyes.


Styrene is widely used in products such as "wax in styrene" an additive for polyester resin solutions and gelcoats used in the fibreglass industry. Styrene is a Schedule 5 poison and certainly should be used with care & in accordance with manufacturers recommendations.


Polystyrene, which is manufactured by polymerization of Styrene, will very effectively dissolve in organic solvents, like petrol, benzene, tolulene & acetone. This is commonly demonstrated in school science experiments however the property is known & causes issues with aromatic oils & certain foodstuffs containing naturally occurring ingredients found in some oily foods, red wines, citrus juices etc. Some of the polystyrene can be dissolved by these foodstuffs so it is the subject of much debate on food safety. Polystyrene is very slow to bio-degrade and is a world wide pollution issue. Very large volumes of polystyrene can be dissolved in organic solvents so is the subject of quite a bit of research into waste management. It has promise with the recovery of both a high grade polymer and the solvent, but is yet to be commercialized.


Using organic solvents has its hazards - most are Schedule 5 or 6 poisons - flammability, being overcome by inhalation of vapours, plus short and long term chronic health risks. Even though they are commonly available they are hazardous substances and dangerous goods.


From Tolulene MSDS - "Humans exposed to intermediate to high levels of toluene for short periods of time experience adverse central nervous system effects ranging from headaches to intoxication, convulsions, narcosis, and death."


From Acetone MSDS - "Vapour is moderately irritating to mucous membranes and respiratory tract. Inhalation of the vapour may result in drunkenness, (see effects of swallowing above) or headache, nausea, in-coordination, narcosis (sleepiness) and vomiting."

Using any product containing solvents in a relatively small or poorly ventilated work space increases risk considerably. Certainly not good to experience intoxication impairment while using machinery.



Definitely do your research before you consider using this tip!!! Best to avoid this one altogether as there are much safer alternatives available.

[Rod Gilbert]

Hi all,
When using open grained timber's the sanding sealer that I have a lot of experience with is clear lacquer with fillers which is usually talc, when used you want the surface to be totally even white appearance when sanded so you use the sanding sealer until you achieve this then a good wipe down with a clean cloth then apply top coat clear this way you fill the grain before the final finish is applied. The white disappears with the top coat and gives a silky smooth surface. This is done because sanding sealer is considerably cheaper or should be than lacquer and fills the grain where as straight lacquer flows over the open grain but does not readily fill it. The sanding sealer that Ubeaut supplies sounds to me like what we used to call grain raiser it does not fill the grain but does as described raises the surface torn grain so it can be sanded off to produce a smooth base to apply you're top coat. We used to do the same thing with a metho and water mix wipe down to raise the grain in the same way then sand to remove the fuzz.
Regards Rod.