A couple of Disston gentlemans half back saws

[rob streeper]

I want to try something new this week. A guy contacted me and asked if I could make him a saw plate replicating this.
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So today I made these. The original is listed as having a 20 inch plate, these are 18 and 16 inches.

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[Sawdust Maker]

watching with interest

hmm so you just had to make the plate or are you commissioned to replicate the saw?

[rob streeper]

watching with interest

hmm so you just had to make the plate or are you commissioned to replicate the saw?

No, I drew up the design and gave the guy a price but I haven't heard back from him. In the meantime I have received an expression of interest from someone else in a saw made to the design so, since I feel like a change from the dovetail saws I did last week I decided to give these and the D8 in the other post a shot.
We'll see how it goes.

Cheers,
Rob

[DSEL74]

I think IanW has made a few of those.

[rob streeper]

Yeah, I think I've seen him post something similar a few months ago.
The original sold on Jim Bodes site for $1800. Must be a super collectors item.

[rob streeper]

I was able to push this build just a little further today. I made a pattern and cut some handle blanks. These are mahogany.


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Since I had the equipment for cutting blanks set up I made a second large batch of handles in seven different types.


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[Sawdust Maker]

finishing all those should keep you out of mischief for a while

[Simplicity]

Wow Rob
Are you machine or something

[rob streeper]

Wow Rob
Are you machine or something

No I'm working on optimizing my work flow to maximize output per hour. The density of stuff in my shop is so high that it only makes sense for me to batch things. Thus I commit full days to making batches of various parts for the saw making. I think I've got something like 50 backs made up in various stages of completion. Yesterday I cut about 20 saw plates. Now that I know what I need to do at each stage I am getting very efficient at producing parts.

[Simplicity]

Immm
A little industry coming along there then well done

[rob streeper]

Thanks Matt,

My goal is to average about 4 hours effort per saw. Each type I've made to date takes me about the same with the exception of the gents and pattern makers saws. Metalwork is the most rapidly accomplished part of any saw for me. Final dressing of the saw handles with repetitive cycles of shellac application followed by correction of minor cosmetic niggles and then more shellac is by far the most time consuming part of the work. By the time I get all of the processes down I may put together a book.

Cheers,
Rob

[rob streeper]

I got these toothed today. This one is the 18" and it is 11 ppi.

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This is the 16" blade and it is toothed 13 ppi.

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[planemaker]

Hi Rob. What saw tooth machine are you using.

Stewie;

[rob streeper]

I did these on a Foley toother.

[planemaker]

I did these on a Foley toother.

Thanks Rob. I notice the rake angle on both saw plates are very relaxed. Look very similar to peg tooth from the photo's.

Very different look to the rake angles on the 2 taper ground backsaw plates in your D-8 post. The top plate looks way too aggressive even for a rip tooth. And the brass back looks a bit more relaxed. Are you looking at making 1 of the backsaws rip and the other crosscut.

Stewie;

[rob streeper]

Thanks Rob. I notice the rake angle on both saw plates are very relaxed. Look very similar to peg tooth from the photo's.

Very different look to the rake angles on the 2 taper ground backsaw plates in your D-8 post. The top plate looks way too aggressive even for a rip tooth. And the brass back looks a bit more relaxed. Are you looking at making 1 of the backsaws rip and the other crosscut.

Stewie;

The half backs have a rake of approximately 20o. I chose that figure after a good deal of experimenting with the last halfback I did. I compared the number of strokes needed to cut through a test board with my half-back to that of the Wenzloff I used as a model. My saw had a 0.025" plate and the Wenzloff a 0.032" plate. I found that my saw cut through the test board with about 25% fewer strokes than did the Wenzloff. Some of that is likely down to the difference in plate thickness. Both of the backsaws are identical, must be a figment of the camera angle.

Rob

[rob streeper]

I realized while making these saws that I needed a saw to cut the slots for the blades so here it is. The blade is heavily taper ground, 0.035" at the tooth line tapering to 0.025" just below the back so that no set is needed. It's 13 ppi filed rip. The handle is Nogal.

338405


On this saw I decided to continue my experiments with bushings. The bushings are 304 stainless sized to be slip fit (0.194") over the un-threaded portion of the shanks of my screws (0.187"). The whole assembly is reamed to fit one screw at a time. This upgrade should take any shearing stress off of the relatively soft brass screw shanks in heavy use. I intend to incorporate this feature in all of my heavier saws.

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[planemaker]

Hi Rob. 0.035 at the tooth line equates to a wider than normal kerf for a backsaw. I dont think 13 ppi gullets are going to be deep enough to keep pace with that greater amount of saw dust.

Stewie;

[rob streeper]

I'm making saws for making saws that have each thickness of steel I use. I have 0.015", 0.025" and now 0.035" slotting saws. These gents saws and the D-8's will all have 0.035" plates. I need to make 0.020" and 0.042" slotting saws too.

[planemaker]

Thanks Rob. I understand what you doing now. Looking forward to following your progress on the 2 gents half back saws.

Cheers Stewie;

[rob streeper]

Finally got this one pretty much done. Cuts very nice 0.035" slots for inletting saw handles. The test block is hornbeam, very tough and stringy but takes a nice finish.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=339948&stc=1

[planemaker]

Looks nice Rob. Well done.

Stewie;

[rob streeper]

Looks nice Rob. Well done.

Stewie;

In using it for several saws I've decided that Nogal / Peruvian walnut is too soft for my taste. It will ultimately finish up nicely but getting there is a lot of work. Once I have run through my current stock I'm not going to use it any more.

[planemaker]

Hi Rob. No shortage of good hardwoods here in Australia.

Any update on your gentlemans half backs. Great project.

regards Stewie.

[planemaker]

Hi Rob. Any further advancement with your work on the half backs.

Stewie;

[rob streeper]

Hi Rob. Any further advancement with your work on the half backs.

Stewie;

Hi Stewie,

Unfortunately, no. I've been too busy lately to work on the saws. Hopefully I'll free up some time in the next few weeks. I've been looking in periodically and it seems pretty quiet in this sub-forum. I'll be getting to the hardness testing of the files soon.

Rob

[Simplicity]

It's been very quite here
I can hear a pin drop

[rob streeper]

While waiting around between interruptions today I managed to get the stock fitted up to one of these. The toothing is 11 ppi, the handle is Honduran mahogany, the back is 0.125" folded brass and the blade is mounted with stainless bushings around the screw shanks. The 18" blade is taper ground and cryogenically treated.


The ends of the bushings are visible as silver rings within the saw screw holes.

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Here's the blade fitted up to the handle and back.


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Here is the beginning of shaping of the handle contours.


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And a full length shot to give an idea of the proportions of the saw.

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I've never worked with mahogany before but I really like it. It's somewhat soft but the piece I have has enough structural integrity that I have had very little problem with blow outs on the sharp corners.

[planemaker]

Hi Rob. I am a little surprised how different your handle is to the original version.

regards Stewie;

[Bushmiller]

Thanks Matt,

My goal is to average about 4 hours effort per saw. Each type I've made to date takes me about the same with the exception of the gents and pattern makers saws. Metalwork is the most rapidly accomplished part of any saw for me. Final dressing of the saw handles with repetitive cycles of shellac application followed by correction of minor cosmetic niggles and then more shellac is by far the most time consuming part of the work. By the time I get all of the processes down I may put together a book.

Cheers,
Rob

Rob

Four hours: I have only restored saws to date, but those for whichI have made new handles probably would have taken close to four days! I might have to review my technique: Sand a little faster, file a lot faster, cut at the speed of sound and apply finish at, well, nothing less than warp speed :D .

On the serious side thank you for sharing your methods.

Regards
Paul

[planemaker]

Hi Paul. Your not alone. It takes me around 4 days to complete a closed handle backsaw.

Stewie;

[Bushmiller]

Hi Paul. Your not alone. It takes me around 4 days to complete a closed handle backsaw.

Stewie;

Thanks Stewie.

I was starting to contemplate Harri-Karri (I think I'd use a gentlemen's saw).

Regards
Paul

[rob streeper]

Hi Rob. I am a little surprised how different your handle is to the original version.

regards Stewie;


Hi Stewie,

I changed the handle characteristics from the original to accommodate my larger hands. I wear a US size 11 glove and I find that the handles of a number of the new-age custom saw makers are uncomfortably small. The Wenzloff dovetail saw I rehabbed in my earlier post is very small for my hand. I can use it but the lower horn digs painfully into heel of my palm. I also changed the hang-angle so that the force vector projects more toward the toe of the saw as I find that the geometry of saws of this type results in a lot of down-pressure on the teeth in use. The blade is made to the dimensions of an original so the handle looks larger relative to the blade than does the original.

Cheers,
Rob

[Heavansabove]

Hi Stewie,

I changed the handle characteristics from the original to accommodate my larger hands. I wear a US size 11 glove and I find that the handles of a number of the new-age custom saw makers are uncomfortably small. The Wenzloff dovetail saw I rehabbed in my earlier post is very small for my hand. I can use it but the lower horn digs painfully into heel of my palm. I also changed the hang-angle so that the force vector projects more toward the toe of the saw as I find that the geometry of saws of this type results in a lot of down-pressure on the teeth in use. The blade is made to the dimensions of an original so the handle looks larger relative to the blade than does the original.

Cheers,
Rob

I take a size 10 glove (by the chart I found on the Web), and find Wenzloff, Gramercy and vintage dovetail saws work fine - close but no digging in. But I need to go up a size in gloves to XL I think perhaps my fingers are longer than average. XL leather gloves I recently purchased in NY are a pretty tight fit.

In other words there are a number of hand factors to consider. Ron has a chart of 4 relevent dimensions http://www.bontzsawworks.net/home/hand-sizing/, an additional one is how thick your hand is - this is important for the space between the grip and the cheeks - Sawdustmaker is quite thick for example (hands:U) and finds some saws too small in this dimension to get his hand around the grip.

Cheers
Peter

[rob streeper]

346425346426346427

[rob streeper]

My connectivity is still really sporadic. I'll keep trying...

[Heavansabove]

Rob, nice looking 1/2 back. What is the ppi, looks like 10 or so? And what size file did you use for sharpening? From memory you have a retoother for cutting the teeth.

Regards
Peter

[rob streeper]

Rob, nice looking 1/2 back. What is the ppi, looks like 10 or so? And what size file did you use for sharpening? From memory you have a retoother for cutting the teeth.

Regards
Peter

Hi Peter,

Thanks. I used a 5.5" XS file on both. The 18 inch saw is 11 ppi and the 16 incher is 13 ppi. Both have the 0.035", taper ground, hammer tensioned and cryotreated blades with 304SS bushings to lock the handles to the plates. They are filed cross-cut with 20o fleam and no bevel. The rake on the 18" saw is 15o and the 16" saw is at 21o. Using both of them I can say that the 18" one is the working saw. It starts easily and cuts smoothly, cleanly and rapidly. The hang-angle on the 16" saw still needs some work as it is a little tetchy in use. The 16" is closer to the configuration of the orignial Disston saw pictured above and given it's performance characteristics I'm wondering if part of the reason that these saws were produced so briefly is that they weren't set up correctly causing them to be somewhat more difficult to use.

Cheers,
Rob

[Sawdust Maker]

... - Sawdustmaker is quite thick for example (hands:U) and finds some saws too small in this dimension to get his hand around the grip.

Cheers
Peter

Many would agree with this comment, sans brackets :cool:

[rob streeper]

Here's the 16" saw. 13 ppi and the handle is set closer to the orientation of the original.

346980

[planemaker]

Very nice work Rob. :2tsup:

[rob streeper]

I took advantage of the weather today, gathered up all of my almost-done saws and called home a couple of already sold saws and went to the engraver. Here's the results.

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[rob streeper]

Better pictures showing the markings.

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[Simplicity]

Very nice Rob very nice