Toggy 11th January 2015, 09:26 PM Yes; FAWOOMP. That's the noise that came from the rotary phase convertor this afternoon. I think it must be another way of saying "you're screwed. I was using the mill most of the weekend until that famous sound this afternoon, along with a flash of light, a pressure wave, hot electrical smell and some smoke. Then a real big silence. The unit was hot and I let it cool for a while. Circuit breaker had tripped also. Reset it and there was horrible rattling sound from the idler motor. Opened up the case and the motor was red hot but still turning at a slower speed and the load meter was jumping from 0-2. There was no 3 phase output. No blown up caps and no burn marks. I am guessing that the auto transformer and possibly a motor phase have blown. You can bet it will be costly. Now to get the heavy frikken thing down off the wall.
I would have gone fishing, but I had found a fuel enrichener jet on the boat motor had been damaged by a previous owner and I was making a T nut to fit the QCTP to the Hardinge to do the repair.
Of course they are all 3ph.
Ken
Michael G 11th January 2015, 09:36 PM I know that feeling - I had my mill stop on Saturday. I think a phase dropped out momentarily (lights flickered) but it was enough for the thermal overload on the mill to trip. Kept pushing the start button and nothing would happen. It took me a couple of hours to finally twig what the problem was and how to fix it. I was sweating in the mean time...
If it helps I could make up a tee nut for you but if you haven't got three phase to drive the lathe it probably won't advance the cause much. Main thing is to work out what caused the problem in the first place so you can prevent it happening again.
Michael
Toggy 11th January 2015, 10:39 PM Thanks for the offer Michael; but as you say; not much use with no 3 phase. Will have the Hardinge disconnected tomorrow and move it so I can get the hoist into place to lift the rpc down. I will then take it back to the manufacturers in Melb. I think that there is a design fault with the case not having enough ventilation for hot climates. Will see what the cost of repairs are first.
How many VFD's do I get for $4G. I only need about 17.
Ken
DSEL74 11th January 2015, 11:18 PM The phase converter is $4000? That would be a lot of VFDs
simonl 11th January 2015, 11:20 PM Thanks for the offer Michael; but as you say; not much use with no 3 phase. Will have the Hardinge disconnected tomorrow and move it so I can get the hoist into place to lift the rpc down. I will then take it back to the manufacturers in Melb. I think that there is a design fault with the case not having enough ventilation for hot climates. Will see what the cost of repairs are first.
How many VFD's do I get for $4G. I only need about 17.
Ken Sorry to hear about your RPC. 17 VFD's? Wow that would be a massive PITA to change over! Simon
RayG 11th January 2015, 11:27 PM Outch... At least you got a FAWOOMP, All I usually get is a BZZT SPLAT... :)
When you get it down, take some pictures and see what went bang. They are pretty simple things generally speaking, you might just need a new idler motor. I assume it's got the digital controller with banked capacitors for load correction? If that's fried, you could probably still bypass that stuff and run it without the correction..
Let me know when it's down.
Ray
jhovel 12th January 2015, 01:07 AM I think we have the Huanyang ones down pat. You should be able to get 17 of them (3kW each) for about $2700... add $150 for each 4kW one you need or deduct $50 for each smaller one.....
:roll:
Toggy 12th January 2015, 07:39 AM What to do? I also have a supply problem which is marginal. It is 2 phase to the sub-board, but one phase then to each shed. Anything over 3hp is a struggle to start; though the 5hp idler in the RPC 'used'' to start ok. 240v 3ph will be twice the amperage of 3 ph per line so may be a problem with multiple motor machines. This is the reason I went RPC originally, and the fact with 3ph it apparently helps smooth out the line balance. Start with the biggest motor then down to the smallest.
A cheap 3 ph generator may be the go.
Another thing with vfd''s is converting each of those motors to delta? plus I no longer have a pet sparkie for all the wiring changes. Also the T&CG has the integrated balanced motor in the head.
Ray,
Climbed up the ladder already and peeked inside. No burn, leakage or smoke marks to be seen. Idler motor clatters like crazy which I believe is a sign of losing a phase. Obviously the 240v leg is still ok.
Ken
jatt 12th January 2015, 09:50 PM A cheap 3 ph generator may be the go.
yes have started exploring that option myself. To get 3 ph mains on to shop here = big $
Toggy 13th January 2015, 09:28 PM Had a visit from Ray & Josh this afternoon.
The idler motor and autotransformer seem ok. The control panel was a different matter though when cover came off. Scorch marks and tracks as well as quite a few of the circuits just plain missing. Vaporised, turned to plasma and and fused to nearby metal parts.
Cost of replacement circuit boards - $880. ouch. Hopefully the new board doesn't go the same way.
Ken
RayG 13th January 2015, 10:05 PM Had a visit from Ray & Josh this afternoon.
The idler motor and autotransformer seem ok. The control panel was a different matter though when cover came off. Scorch marks and tracks as well as quite a few of the circuits just plain missing. Vaporised, turned to plasma and and fused to nearby metal parts.
Cost of replacement circuit boards - $880. ouch. Hopefully the new board doesn't go the same way.
Ken
The control system consists of two boards, one power board with high current fets mounted underneath on a simple flat aluminium sheet as a heatsink, the top board has the logic and custom processor to control the fets, which are arranged to switch capacitors in or out of circuit. depending on load. The board might be repairable in a pinch, but the tracks that vapourized, left a copper film over parts of the logic board, that would be very difficult to repair. A replacement board is the only real choice.
Generally it's a nicely made rotary phase converter. It needs better cooling for the fets, and maybe moving the idler motor out of the enclosure would help with heat.
Ray
Karl Robbers 14th January 2015, 12:51 PM The control system consists of two boards, one power board with high current fets mounted underneath on a simple flat aluminium sheet as a heatsink, the top board has the logic and custom processor to control the fets, which are arranged to switch capacitors in or out of circuit. depending on load. The board might be repairable in a pinch, but the tracks that vapourized, left a copper film over parts of the logic board, that would be very difficult to repair. A replacement board is the only real choice.
Generally it's a nicely made rotary phase converter. It needs better cooling for the fets, and maybe moving the idler motor out of the enclosure would help with heat.
Ray
I fully admit that I don't have experience with these setups, but it would seem to me that if the cooling is a weak point, then adding a couple of cooling fans from say a computer enclosure would be a good addition at this point.
Gerbilsquasher 14th January 2015, 08:20 PM How long did this thing last before it cacked itself? I've been considering buying one... maybe...
Toggy 14th January 2015, 08:56 PM Saw something last night with 2009; but I am sure it was prior to that. They are supposed to last for 30 odd years. I have been pleased with it up til now. An interesting thing noticed by RayG was that the controller circuit boards are made in China. Funny how a company claiming to be all Australian is using chinese sourced parts. Motor & transformer appear to be Asian imports. The current controller boxes are supposedly now made in Aus, I may not be the 1st to have had meltdowns on possibly sub standard asian sourced electrics. I will certainly ask the hard questions tomorrow when I pick up the new controller from the factory tomorrow. To be fair to the company, they have been good to deal with previously.
We have already discussed cutting a hole in the rear of the case and fitting a fan. Also I would like to make a new stand and fit the idler motor externally like the larger models. It produces lots of heat and there is minimal case ventilation. May work in cooler climes, but I don't think they have allowed for constant over 40c temps.
Ken
Zwitter 14th January 2015, 11:26 PM Hi
After building my perfect workshop and putting in 3 phase the wife decided we neede a bigger house for the 3 kids.
New place has the worst switchboard I have ever seen and has 250mm flowing in the earth!
I am saving up to have switch board redone and problems solved but 3 phase is not really an option.
I bought one of these Phase Changers at about 3-4Kw to run the mill, grinder, shaper etc. fantastic, quiet, heavy!!
I had to change the control connection in the mill so the contactors worked but then it has the advantage of being able to run multiple motors simultaneously up to its full load.
Bought it on gumtree for a fraction of new cost and been very happy with it. It will not run my big welders, but I bought a new switchmode single phase welder and it will out perform the hundreds of kilos of the old ones and I can carry it.
James
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Toggy 16th January 2015, 07:01 PM Well; back from the big smoke just after lunch with circuit board version 2. Much "improved" and heavier looking locally made version. Passed on RayG's thoughts about possible cooling improvements. Mark also agreed that it would not hurt to relocate the idler motor outside the case as this is what generates most of the heat. Also sourced a couple of spare caps and a case fan as used in larger convertors.
I found Mark (company owner) was once again very good to get on with and helpful. He could not get over the fact that I drove down to pick up the replacement board. At that price I was not going to trust Aus Post with it. Anyway, managed to track down a fuel jet for one of the boat carbies as well.
Tomorrow I will make the new stand and paint it, ready to relocate the idler motor.
In conversation; I solved the chinese made circuit boards. Mark was living in China (and manufacturing units for their market) for a while and using locally sourced materials. At the same time he was making units in Aus for sale and export. His Aus units used locally made boards; but at times when local production could not supply enough boards; he supplemented them from his chinese stock. Claims they were of equal quality and had only had a couple of units arc out. Main problem was board caps 'wearing' out from constant switching.
I will get a photo later of the old and new.
Zwitter. The blue wire (line 3) is the 240V line from the mains. The other 2 lines are the manufactured phases. Any controls etc must come from the blue wire.
Ken
Toggy 17th January 2015, 06:51 PM Old board on right, new on left.
Quite a difference.
Ken
337174
.RC. 17th January 2015, 07:58 PM I am on the third board on mine.. First died under warranty... second I suspect lightning blew it to hell... Then I had a power capacitor blow late last year.. but they are cheap... Probably more to do with the power supply I have and loads I put on it..
Toggy 28th January 2015, 09:06 PM Well; she makes noises again, mind you very quietly and smoothly. On start up the idler motor used to thump and sounded to be running a bit 'harshly'. Resonance from being in the case may have amplified the noise.
A fabricated angle iron stand now has the case on top with the idler motor outside on the bottom shelf like the larger units. Also a case fan was fitted for a bit of air flow over the electronics. On start up now, the idler is vibration free and and almost silent.
I rang my long suffering mentor; RayG earlier with the results. He feels that the new upgraded processor board is providing better and more accurate voltages to the idler motor.
During the test run, I fired up the TOS lathe which takes some spinning over. Did the job nicely.
Ken
.RC. 28th January 2015, 09:29 PM Was the new board about $800 or so?
I should snap a pic of my board to see if they are similar...
Toggy 28th January 2015, 10:25 PM Look at the pics in post #17 Richard.:)
Old board on right; new on left. Now uncovered and components appear to be heavier construction. Base is larger and mount had to be modified (repositioned lower mounts studs). Also requires an adapter to fit the older builds inputs.
$800 plus gst.
Ken
Toggy 29th January 2015, 09:57 PM I ran the mill for 2 hours or so tonight. Both it and the RPC performed flawlessly. I couldn't hear the RPC operating and kept checking the "load" light to see if it was still running. The mill seemed to run smoother as well. RayG may well be correct with his idea that the new controller circuit is supplying a more balanced supply to the idler.
Maybe I have a short memory and happy to have things working again.:)
Ken
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