Marking gauge suggestions

[Woodwork123]

I'm looking for a general purpose marking gauge. There seem to be lots of options. In addition to any suggestions about your favorite brand or design, I'm particularly interested 2 questions: the wheel style vs. the more traditional type of gauge; and how necessary is a double bevel on the blade? I'm left-handed if that matters.

Thanks

[shanesmith80]

I currently have 5 different marking/cutting gauges. 2 cutting gauges, 1 marking gauge ( made by Ian Wilkie, bought on this forum). 1 Veritas wheel gauge and 1 carbatec mortise gauge.
The first gauge I got was the carbatec mortise gauge, and although it done the job I found that it could be hard to get consistent straight lines, would often catch and follow the grain. This does have a lot to do with my incompetence.

Because of this I was very happy when I got the marking wheel, is very easy to use and the easiest to fine adjust.

But my favourite by far are the 2 cutting gauges. These are just lovely to use. The marking gauge came as a pair with one of the cutting gauges, and although it is very nice I don't use it a lot.

So when it comes to marking out now my go to tools are the marking gauges, and yes gauges, I nearly always use both of them set at different depths and try leave them there until I'm sure I won't need that setting anymore.
But if I am working on smaller pieces then the marking wheel is a lot easier to use. It just seems to be slightly easier to control.

But that's just one right handed opinion..
cheers.

[aldav]

I have found the Japanese ones like this http://www.traditionalwoodworker.com/images/406-12762-lg.jpg good. Nice long fence, can be sharpened, can mark out mortices as well, easy to use and cheap. :)

[Christos]

Originally I picked up a marking gauge with the sharp point on the end, it is in pristine condition. The one that I use the most is the Veritas wheel marking gauge. The wheel will need to be sharpen every now and then. A very light touch on some fine sand paper is all I do.

[IanW]

OK, so I like my tools to be reasonably handsome, but you know, a nail driven through a stick with some kind of rough stop attached, can do the job! However, that's a bit crude, and not so easy to adjust, so the first essentials you want in a gauge are that it has a stock that is square to the beam (or close), and the beam locks firmly where you set it. I prefer the locking thumbscrew on top, out of the way (which also suits both right & left handers equally), but others prefer them on the side. Another property to look for in a gauge is that it slides smoothly when the locking mechanism is loosened just a touch. That indicates the beam is straight & accurately dimensioned, and makes the gauge easy to set.

Now, cutting point, needle point, or wheel, - which is best? My answer would be, 'none of the above'. They all have their place(s). I prefer needle points for marking along the grain, cutting points across grain. Needle points are good for marking a 'stop' point, e.g., when marking out a hinge recess, or anywhere where you want a line to stop precisely. Lots of folks like wheel markers, but I don't get on with them at all. That's probably a character defect & not the fault of wheel markers.. :; It's mostly because my chronologically challenged eyes need a decent line to see it clearly, so I like bold marks. Good clear lines are also handy to register chisels in, when edges need to be trimmed to precise dimensions. Wheel markers often leave pretty light marks (a good thing, of course when you want light marks). I very rarely have a problem with a needle point 'following grain' - if that happens, you need to work on your technique!

My advice would be to go & buy a couple of inexpensive gauges and use them for a while to see what you do & don't like about them, then lash out on some 'nice' gauges later, if you feel the need. You'll always find a use for the cheapies - it's good to have several gauges on hand when doing complex joinery.

Mortise gauges are far from essential, but they are very handy things to have. I use mine a lot. They seem to take a bit of getting used-to, I've noticed a lot of people struggle with them at first. To use any gauge, let the point or cutter trail away from the direction you're moving in, and rotate the gauge to apply enough pressure to get the points or cutters to mark, as you apply pressure to the stock to keep it registered against the edge you're marking from.

One last gauge not mentioned, but which I find enormously useful, is a pencil gauge: 336955

There are many occasions where I want to mark a line for some reason, but I don't want it to be permanent - a pencil gauge is the bees' knees in that situation... :U

Cheers,

[DSEL74]

Another point to consider is replacement cutting tips. Should yours have n accident or wear out how easy is it to replace? Pin tips can easily be made from an old drill bit, cutters depending on the design old stanley knife blades. Wheels have to be bought and I believe they are not all equal so you need to buy from the original manufacturer.

Does anyone have a supplier of cheap wheels, if so you could make your own.

[rob streeper]

I have a fair number of different styles and makes of marking gauges but the hands down winners in my experience are those made by Bridge City Toolworks. I haven't used any other high end gauges but compared to the kind of gauges sold at woodworking stores or older Stanley gauges BCTW gauges are miles ahead and I consider them well worth the money they command.

[Woodwork123]

Thanks for all the good advice. I think I'll start with a cheap wheel gauge I saw at Woodcraft (from which I have a gift card). And then I'll go from there as needed.

[marphlix]

Can i just asks a few more questions on this topic?

I have a 3 in 1 marking gauge (http://www.carbatec.com.au/3-in-1-marking-gauge_c19820) from Carbatec. I can say that i really don't like the blade - it is probably me - but i find it really follows the grain and also the line closes up pretty much straight away and i can't see it.

I find the pin OK - but hard to use as it seems I have to tilt the gauge a fair bit in order to get a good registration on the fence - and then i find it doesn't mark that well as a result.

I do really like the wheel - especially for cross grain marking. For long grain marking i do find it also follows the grain a bit. It is now also getting dull i think

Most of the marking i have done so far is on either pine or Vic Ash.

So my questions are:

** How do you sharpen the wheel (i saw suggestions of sandpaper above)? I have tried running it along the edge of a super fine diamond stone by hand at what i hope is the right angle, then i flipped it a tried to flatten the top to remove any bur. Not sure how successful this was. Any other techniques?

** What technique should be used for long grain marking to help avoid it following the grain. I noticed that Ian says he uses the a pin for long grain - is that the best/only solution?

Sorry if theses are dumb questions.

Thanks in Advanced

[Christos]

......
** How do you sharpen the wheel (i saw suggestions of sandpaper above)? I have tried running it along the edge of a super fine diamond stone by hand at what i hope is the right angle, then i flipped it a tried to flatten the top to remove any bur. Not sure how successful this was. Any other techniques?

** What technique should be used for long grain marking to help avoid it following the grain. I noticed that Ian says he uses the a pin for long grain - is that the best/only solution?
......


When I sharpen the wheel of the gauge and after dismantling it, I place it on wet and dry sand paper. The sand paper is on a flat piece of glass, but I have also used a short piece of MDF that I will dispose afterwards. Add some water to the paper and place the wheel flat on the wet and dry. Couple of strokes to clean up the face and that's it. I don't do anything to the bevel.

I use the same wheel gauge for the long grain just making sure that I have my thumb pressing on the barrel and hard against the edge. I can not tell you how much pressure but for me it does not slip or follow the grain.

The wet and dry sand paper is either 320 or 400 grit. But I have also used 240 when I could not locate one of the other two. You are not taking off a lot of metal only just touching it up.

[IanW]

Like so many tools, Marphlix, there are several ways to use a gauge, and they can all work, with a bit of persistence.

I know there are many as disagree, but I see no point in using a cutting or wheel gauge along the grain for marking out. I will use cutting gauges along the grain when I want to make a deep cut, as in marking out a hinge rebate, otherwise they are for cross-grain marking, in my view. Pins can make a right mess if used heavy-handed across the grain! As you have noticed, wheels & cutters don't leave a very distinct mark, and have a tendency to wander in strong-grained woods when used along the grain. This can be minimised, though not entirely eliminated in all woods, by setting the bevel, either of wheel or cutter facing the fence, so that it tends to pull the gauge away from the edge of the work, & help keep the fence registered.

Since the object of the exercise is to make a mark that you can see, you may as well use something that does that. For the average eye, the limit of resolution at a normal working distance is 0.2mm, so there is no point in making a mark any finer than that. I use slightly blunt points on my pins, so that they make a distinct mark - I need all the help I can get at my age!

To minimise wandering, try concentrating your effort on keeping the fence registered against the edge of the work. Roll the gauge into the direction of travel, as you mention, then press back a little on the cutter or pin; just enough to make a visible mark. If the cutting edge or pin is trailing the direction of travel, there should be little tendency to wander, as long as you keep that fence registered firmly. At first you will have to think about it, but it will soon become second nature, & you'll wonder why you had any trouble in the beginning..... :U

Cheers,

[derekcohen]

My turn :)

Whether one uses a pin, a wheel, or a cutting blade, the correct way to score a line is in multiple strokes, never one deep line. Begin with barely stroking the surface, just enough to sever the fibres. Then do it again increasing downforce and cutting a little deeper. This is still a fine line. Finally, score deeper still. This applies with all types of gauges.

Rule #2: Knives are better across the grain. Pins are poor in this regard. Regrind all pins to a knife. Pins are OK with the grain, but so can a knife be. In fact, I prefer a knife along the grain to a pin. It is the wheel along the grain that leaves a fainter line, because it is so fine. This can be remedied with multiple cuts.

A modified pin looks like this ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Marking%20and%20Measuring/Cutting%20guiage/gauges4.jpg

One of the advantages of a knife cutter is that it creates a line with one side perpendicular (and the other angled). We always want to be working with a straight, perpendicular line, such as when forming a knife wall for tenon shoulders or chopping to a dovetail baseline. The wheel cutter and pin do not do this.

WW123, being left-handed is an issue, since the best gauges are Japanese, which use knives, and all the ones I've seen are designed for a right-hander (the direction of the hand grip and the cutters).

Here's an example of one I made for myself to illustrate ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Marking%20and%20Measuring/Cutting%20Gauge%202/CG2_zps06c8ddeb.jpg

Here is a similar style, another I made, with a cutting blade that may be used either to the left- or right ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Marking%20and%20Measuring/Inlay%20tools/inlay2_zps99428667.jpg

Hamilton tools make one similar ...



http://cdn1.bigcommerce.com/server2500/508f4/products/40/images/161/6_afblack__54453.1405358489.1280.1280.JPG?c=2



http://cdn1.bigcommerce.com/server2500/508f4/products/40/images/161/6_afblack__54453.1405358489.30.30.JPG?c=2
http://cdn1.bigcommerce.com/server2500/508f4/products/40/images/159/af_black_both__95478__71513.1405358508.30.30.JPG?c=2









The Veritas wheel gauge is excellent value for money, and you get superb backup service. More expensive, and with a little more class (but no more functionality) is the Tite-Mark ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Marking%20and%20Measuring/Wheelgauges-VeritasandTiteMark1.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[IanW]

Interesting, Derek - I guess Japanese woodworkers like to pull their marking gauges towards them, whereas I come from the 'push-away' school. That Japanese gauge would be a leftie, in my view.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Marking%20and%20Measuring/Cutting%20Gauge%202/CG2_zps06c8ddeb.jpg

Now this is a good example of convergent evolution. :U

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Marking%20and%20Measuring/Cutting%20guiage/gauges4.jpg

I make my cutters by grinding a cutting face on a 3.2mm pin. The cutter is shaped so that it will cut equally well in either direction. I always orient the cutter so that the bevelled face is towards the fence, as you've done on this one, because when moving through the wood, this will tend to pull the cutter away from the fence, helping to keep it registered. Also, it is more often the edge furthest from the fence that you want to be perpendicular, although I don't think that this is a big issue, given the width & depth of an average layout line! One advantage of my gauges is that you can orient the pin any way you like, by simply loosening the grub screw & twisting it to your desired position: 341516

So to me, this cutter seems to be attached 'back to front':
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Marking%20and%20Measuring/Inlay%20tools/inlay2_zps99428667.jpg

Cheers,

[derekcohen]

Hi Ian

That last gauge's blade is reversed as it is dedicated to slicing inlay.

Here is another example of the direction for the bevel of a knife. On this mortice gauge, the bevel will leave a "v" in the waste, while the outer side of the line is perpendicular ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/Mortice-CuttingGauges_html_1ff5cd98.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/Mortice-CuttingGauges_html_4e779d81.jpg

One can get away with the bevel being reversed when the blade is so thin and cut such a fine line ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/Mortice-CuttingGauges_html_1257fd1a.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/Mortice-CuttingGauges_html_m3afec88e.jpg

You know, between us we have turned out just about every possible gauge design imaginable! :U

Regards from Perth


Derek

[Luke Maddux]

Sorry I'm not going to read the previous responses so I apologize for redundant statements.

I use an all metal marking gauge. The Veritas Dual Marking Gauge.

I like it because you have so many options. I would get on their website and check out the manual and you will be impressed by its versatility. There are two cutters which are oriented in opposite directions so you can always have the bevel facing the right way.

Can't comment on wheel vs pin style, but wheel seems fundamentally better to me.

[IanW]

..You know, between us we have turned out just about every possible gauge design imaginable! :U

That's a very bold statement, Derek! Someone will take up the challenge and show us half a dozen we haven't yet tackled. :U Actually, I know of several other locking mechanisms I've not made - one day I will make a couple, just for fun (when I've finished all the other 'gunnadosumday' jobs. :U)

But between us, it's true, we have certainly had a go at a variety of types! You've been a bit lot more adventurous, my style is (very) slow evolution of standard designs, and I can't claim anything novel, apart from my brass noses for the beam. But I wouldn't be at all surprised if that has been done before, too, on more than one occasion. Maybe we both need to get out more, but making tools to suit my own taste & style is a large part of the fun for me, & I suspect you have a similar ethic.

Cheers,

[IanW]

...Can't comment on wheel vs pin style, but wheel seems fundamentally better to me.

Horses for courses, Luke. There are things a wheel can't do, like marking a series of centre points, or a 'stop' point, & marking precisely to a fixed point ain't as easy as it is with a pin. All styles have their places & advocates.... :;

Cheers,

[marphlix]

Wow, who knew there was so much too it.

Thanks for the very detailed response Derek and Ian. I guess i will have to try out a couple more different styles of gauges and work on my technique.

Thanks again!

[artful bodger]

Wow, who knew there was so much too it.

Thanks for the very detailed response Derek and Ian. I guess i will have to try out a couple more different styles of gauges and work on my technique.

Thanks again!

Great reply! I did not realise there was so much too it either.
Perhaps you should just buy a regular run of the mill marking gauge to start off with. It's all you really need.
If you are hopeless at woodwork I doubt it is because of your zircon encrusted , brass inlaid marking gauge.
No offence intended for the great shots of all the alternatives.
Surprised there is not a "Marking gauge magazine available":U

[IanW]

.....No offence intended for the great shots of all the alternatives.....

No offense taken here, Artful. As I've said above, a few nails & a couple of sticks can do the job (& I've done just that, in the past!). I'm well aware that polish & fancy wood aren't essential. But it is nice to use tools that we find attractive as well as functional, isn't it? :;


.....Surprised there is not a "Marking gauge magazine available":U

That might be just slightly OTT. But now you've come to mention it..... :U

Cheers,

[derekcohen]

One of my favourites is just a block of wood with a woodscrew driven in and the head sharpened.

The block of wood acts as the fence.

Screwing in-and-out sets the depth of cut.

The round section of the screw will mark like a cutting gauge.

Turned to the slot section, it will cut a thin groove.

One does not need expensive or advantaged tools to build most things.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[marphlix]

Thanks for the encouragement artful bodger,

The one comment i will make, is that as a newbie, i personally find it easier to start out using a quality tool for learning. I have had experience buying 2nd hand tools off ebay etc, and not really knowing how to use/tune them and getting really frustrated with the result. When i end up buying a new, quality tool to replace it, its amazing the difference, and i can see why i was struggling so much.

I hope that in a few months/years, i will be able to resort to simple thing like a screw and block of wood that Derek uses, but based on my experience, i would probably find it helpful to start out with something i know is supposed to work straight away. That way if it doesn't i can point the finger straight at me, rather than wondering if the tool is not tuned/setup correctly.

That and as Ian says: "But it is nice to use tools that we find attractive as well as functional, isn't it? http://d1r5wj36adg1sk.cloudfront.net/images/smilies/mf_wink.gif"

In that light, i think i will purchase a veritas wheel gauge. I'm tossing up between the dual gauge (http://www.carbatec.com.au/veritas-dual-marking-gauge_c21872) and the micro adjust single one (http://www.carbatec.com.au/veritas-micro-adjustable-marking-gauge_c19371). For me i think the deciding factor would be how useful the micro adjust is? Do people have any experience with this?

Thanks for all the advice everyone!

[Christos]

....
Surprised there is not a "Marking gauge magazine available":U

We just about have one called Woodworkforums.com :U


....The one comment i will make, is that as a newbie, i personally find it easier to start out using a quality tool for learning. I have had experience buying 2nd hand tools off ebay etc, and not really knowing how to use/tune them and getting really frustrated with the result. When i end up buying a new, quality tool to replace it, its amazing the difference, and i can see why i was struggling so much.
....

While making or doing something it gives you more experience and it does get better.



......In that light, i think i will purchase a veritas wheel gauge. I'm tossing up between the dual gauge (http://www.carbatec.com.au/veritas-dual-marking-gauge_c21872) and the micro adjust single one (http://www.carbatec.com.au/veritas-micro-adjustable-marking-gauge_c19371). For me i think the deciding factor would be how useful the micro adjust is? Do people have any experience with this?.....

I have the micro adjust marking gauge and I find that I don't use this function. So it is used only as a standard marking gauge that has the extra function. :roll: I have not used the dual marking gauge so can not say anything about it.

[marphlix]

So I got one of the Japanese marking gauge sthat Derek showed in his post and website. One thing I can't work out; is there a functional reason for the extra lamination on the fence? It looks good, and I for me that would be a good reason, but just wondering if there was something else I was missing?

Thanks

[derekcohen]

The extra lamination does two things: firstly, it increases the thickness of the fence, which improves the grip. Secondly, I converted the double blade configuration to single blade. To do so the bed was raised (to replace the second blade) and the "gap" at the fence was covered.

Note that the blades need much tuning: flattening and re-bevelling to make them work well. Grinding removes the brittleness in this blades, and the bevel angles are lowered (from about 30 degrees to about 20 degrees) to increase penetration (sharper line).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[marphlix]

Thanks Derek! I will ensure that I tune up the blades too.

Cheers