Saw making hammers

[Corneel]

All this talk about saw plates makes me want to work on some saws again. I have a few old ones that needs some attention. Two of them are not very straight and I would like to practice a bit saw smithing. Now, that is rather new for me ( other then random bashing). The chance that I am going to find some real saw smithing tools is pretty slim, so I would like to adapt normal hammers.

How are these things shaped? Is the head simply flat or are they a bit convex? And the edges of the hammer heads? How about the weight? Of course I want to avoid denting my saws.

I have a large chunk of mild steel that is going to be my anvil.

[rob streeper]

All this talk about saw plates makes me want to work on some saws again. I have a few old ones that needs some attention. Two of them are not very straight and I would like to practice a bit saw smithing. Now, that is rather new for me ( other then random bashing). The chance that I am going to find some real saw smithing tools is pretty slim, so I would like to adapt normal hammers.

How are these things shaped? Is the head simply flat or are they a bit convex? And the edges of the hammer heads? How about the weight? Of course I want to avoid denting my saws.

I have a large chunk of mild steel that is going to be my anvil.


Hi Corneel,

I have two dog's head type hammers that you can see in the background of one of my pictures. I got those from Glen Stollmeyer. he told me that those hammers are in the style of hammers used in sword making. they have convex rounded faces with a polished striking face. The sawyers hammer I have also has convex faces, though they are not as convex as are the GS hammers and the surfaces are not polished. The GS hammers are 1.5 and 2.5 lbs. and the sawyers hammer is 5 lbs. The sawyers hammer is one of several that were sold on eBay. If I remember correctly the other two were comparable in weight to the GS hammers I have.
I've found that a critical part of hammering is a decent anvil. It doesn't need to have a mirror finish but rough makes rough.
Overall I've found saw blade hammering to be pretty straightforward, just take it easy and don't dig into the plate with the corner of the hammer face. Nonetheless you'll still need to sand or grind the surface after hammering to remove minor strike marks.

Cheers,
Rob

[Corneel]

Hi Corneel,

I have two dog's head type hammers that you can see in the background of one of my pictures. I got those from Glen Stollmeyer. he told me that those hammers are in the style of hammers used in sword making. they have convex rounded faces with a polished striking face. The sawyers hammer I have also has convex faces, though they are not as convex as are the GS hammers and the surfaces are not polished. The GS hammers are 1.5 and 2.5 lbs. and the sawyers hammer is 5 lbs. The sawyers hammer is one of several that were sold on eBay. If I remember correctly the other two were comparable in weight to the GS hammers I have.
I've found that a critical part of hammering is a decent anvil. It doesn't need to have a mirror finish but rough makes rough.
Overall I've found saw blade hammering to be pretty straightforward, just take it easy and don't dig into the plate with the corner of the hammer face. Nonetheless you'll still need to sand or grind the surface after hammering to remove minor strike marks.

Cheers,
Rob

Thanks for the info Rob. That's a lot heavier then I thought they would be.

[rob streeper]

Thanks for the info Rob. That's a lot heavier then I thought they would be.

I don't really have any idea that those weights are the most appropriate but they are what I have used with some success.

[planemaker]

British Saws & Saw Makers from c1660; Simon Barley; published: Oct. 2014; Chapter 1; page 16; Making a saw; Smithing;

The saw plate might at this stage to the uneducated eye look flat, but it contained multiple and almost invisible irregularities which the trade called "fast and loose". These were corrected with a saw makers hammer that had two faces at right angles to one another and which produced the marks shown in Figure 1.14. The sheet also had to be hammered to produce stretching (http://www.woodworkforums.com/#) of the edge and hence "tension", in order to increase its ability to return to straightness when bent. Flatness and tensioning were achieved by the smith's hammering in one place after another, and on both sides, constantly checking for the right result using a saw makers straightedge (Figure 1.13), a strip of steel with a fractional concave edge.


Hi Kees. Not sure if this is what your inquiring about.

Stewie;

[Corneel]

I will check out the book again, but I must say he is a bit cryptic in the technical descriptions. I have no idea what he means with the hammer faces "at right angles to each other".

[rob streeper]

I will check out the book again, but I must say he is a bit cryptic in the technical descriptions. I have no idea what he means with the hammer faces "at right angles to each other".

Perhaps this? This is the 5 pound hammer.

337032


Holding this hammer in the right hand as shown in the picture it would make impressions on the saw plate that are perpendicular to the long axis of the anvil.

Kind of like this: l l l l l l

If the hammer is rotated about the axis of the handle it would make impressions like this: - - - - - -

If you overlapped the l and - strokes you could get impressions like this: + + + + + + or this: l-l-l-l-l-l

A round faced hammer on the other hand would make impacts something like this: * * * * * *

We know for sure that sawyers hammers were made for sawyers and that the twisted faces were made that way for a reason.

[planemaker]

Hi Rob. The strike marks shown in Figure 1.14. of the book look very similar to those that can be made by your 5 pound hammer.

Stewie;

[rob streeper]

Hi Rob. The strike marks shown in Figure 1.14. of the book look very similar to those that can be made by your 5 pound hammer.

Stewie;

Is the book open source? The link that appears in your post above took me to the front page of the forum.

I don't have a copy and never have seen one. Something else to put on the list.

Do you think a posting a scan of the relevant figure here would fall under the 'scholarly discussion' or 'short excerpts' exemption to copyright?

[planemaker]

Hi Rob. Attached is a link to purchasing this book.

http://www.taths.org.uk/news/157-barley-saws

A book review was also posted on the U.K forum site.

http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/book-review-british-saws-saw-makers-from-c1600-t83196.html


regards; Stewie.

[RayG]

Hi Corneel.

Here are some sawmakers hammers.. Dogshead on the left.

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/Misc/DSCN0273.JPG

This is a 200 lb sawmakers anvil, and a saw makers straight edge.

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/Misc/DSCN0285.JPG

If it's any help, I can take some more detailed pictures of the different hammers..

Ray

[RayG]

Although this mostly is dealing with tensioning circular saws, there are some good hints and techniques. And a description of the various hammers.
Note the difference between the twist face and the cross face hammers.

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/Sawdoctor1.jpg
http://www.backsaw.net/pics/Sawdoctor2.jpg
http://www.backsaw.net/pics/Sawdoctor3.jpg
http://www.backsaw.net/pics/Sawdoctor4.jpg
http://www.backsaw.net/pics/Sawdoctor5.jpg


The pages above are from "Drabble and Sanderson Saw Doctors Guide 1925"


Ray

[Corneel]

That's helpfull folks!

I think I can get a reasonable aproximation when I take a normal bench hammer and shape the faces. My "anvil isn't so nice to look at, it is just a heavy chunk of steel with a nice smooth top. That'll do for a while.

And then it is just a matter of practicing. The above manual could be helpfull to determine what I am actually want to hit and how i am going to hit it.

[hiroller]

I posted this link the other day but it's worth mentioning again.
http://www.wkfinetools.com/tRestore/saw/strSawBlade/strSawBlade1.asp
In it Bob uses 2 hammers, 1 light and 1 heavy. He makes the hammer faces convex and describes their use in straightening the blade nicely.

That anvil of yours Ray looks very impressive!
Have you used it yet? Where did it come from?

[RayG]

I posted this link the other day but it's worth mentioning again.
http://www.wkfinetools.com/tRestore/saw/strSawBlade/strSawBlade1.asp
In it Bob uses 2 hammers, 1 light and 1 heavy. He makes the hammer faces convex and describes their use in straightening the blade nicely.

That anvil of yours Ray looks very impressive!
Have you used it yet? Where did it come from?

I've read that Bob Smalser article a few times, and tried it without much success, I need practice to get the touch right.. :)

I got the anvil from Denman Robinson when they closed down, they used to have a shop in the city back in the early 1900's and the anvil came from there. the base is a huge solid lump of unknown timber, that came with it. The guy reckoned the timber came from a ship. Peter McBride picked up some really nice leg vises with wide jaws for saw work, and a nice collection of hammers, including a twist face.

They traded under the name Denman Lack and Robinson in the early 1900's at 333 Lonsdale Street. A search of trove.nla.gov.au turned up a few blurry advertisments... Later they changed to Denman and Robinson and were at 179 King Street, near Bourke Street in 1929.

[rob streeper]

Hi Ray,

Very nice tools. Talk about being in the right place at the right time. Gathering sawyers tools requires the 'crocodile' approach - a lot of patient watching with eyes just above water but ready to strike at a moments notice.
I use the Woodpeckers straight edges, both the 1 and 2 foot. Not as elegant as a real sawyers tool but they work.

And on the subject of accidental finds: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/01/archaeologists-find-132-year-old-winchester-rifle-leaning-against-nevada-desert-tree/

Rob

[pmcgee]

In the old material around 'Saws' sometimes means circular saws, sometimes the large logging saws, and sometimes handsaws (bandsaws even).

There's a youtube video on hammering and checking a long xcut saw.

I'll see if I can refind it.

Cheers,
Paul

[hiroller]

Here is an interesting patent for a rather unique saw tensioning hammer;
http://www.google.com/patents/US693060
It also describes current tensioning practise for 1901.

In the process of straightening, leveling, and tensioning saw-blades, especially bandsaws, wherein much skill and judgment are involved, the apparatus and tools at present in use comprise a steel-faced anvil, a leveling-block, a bench, supporting-rollers for the blade, a stretcher-roller, hammers, both doghead and cross-face, back gage, and-leveling straight-edge. These are used by supporting the saw on the rollers and bench, leveling it on the block, testingit with the straightedge to find the lumps, bends, ridges, and twists, hammering with the cross-face hammer to remove these, testing it to find the fast,-loose, and stiff spots or places, and hammering with the dog face or tensioning hammer to remove such spots or places. In the use of these hammers great care must be taken to hammer both sidesof the saw alike to prevent driving the saw through or dishing it. The saw must be perfectly flat on both sides.
337483

[pmcgee]

I was thinking of this video ... hammering to straighten at the 19:00 mark


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kD976NlxrSE

[rob streeper]

Here is an interesting patent for a rather unique saw tensioning hammer;
http://www.google.com/patents/US693060
It also describes current tensioning practise for 1901.

In the process of straightening, leveling, and tensioning saw-blades, especially bandsaws, wherein much skill and judgment are involved, the apparatus and tools at present in use comprise a steel-faced anvil, a leveling-block, a bench, supporting-rollers for the blade, a stretcher-roller, hammers, both doghead and cross-face, back gage, and-leveling straight-edge. These are used by supporting the saw on the rollers and bench, leveling it on the block, testingit with the straightedge to find the lumps, bends, ridges, and twists, hammering with the cross-face hammer to remove these, testing it to find the fast,-loose, and stiff spots or places, and hammering with the dog face or tensioning hammer to remove such spots or places. In the use of these hammers great care must be taken to hammer both sidesof the saw alike to prevent driving the saw through or dishing it. The saw must be perfectly flat on both sides.
337483



That's really interesting thanks. Reminiscent of a blacksmith's spring swage. http://piehtoolco.com/contents/en-us/d1260.html

[Timmymacca]

This is a page taken from "The Handyman's Guide" by Paul N Hasluck (first published in 1903)...

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/20/0df941b6c02854eeefa87080b83c93ce.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[D.W.]

Kees, for out of straight saws, I have always used any hammer available that's a little over a pound and polished the face (1 1/2 pounds is nice). Most hammers should be hard enough if they are decent quality.

The hard part to find is a good anvil. I've got a 125 pound soderfors or soderfors type that makes hammering a lot easier. I've sanded the top so that the surface is smooth and non-marking on the saw.

I also looked at the technique smalser employs, but I've never had luck with it, possibly because I'm using an anvil instead of wood background. I've always struck on the part that's convex. The hammer bends in the direction I'm hammering toward. IIRC, smalser may have suggested what's happening is the opposite.

I am just too cheap to find a saw maker's hammer, i only hammer saws when they need it and don't produce them. Being able to hammer out warp is super handy, though. Literally only takes a minute or two.

You just need to experiment with it. I use fairly light strikes and pull the saw across the anvil near the end as I'm doing it so that I can bias the saw plate to make sure it's against the anvil firmly and get even strikes.

[Corneel]

This must have been the best accumulation of information about this subject I have ever seen. Now I must start digging in the shed to find some old saw blades.