Start motor reco

[Stustoys]

Afternoon gentlemen,
I pulled the short straw and have a couple of Lucus M45G starters to reco.
They get used for hours on end but at a low load.
The plan is to set the armature up in a 4 jaw with the commutator end in a fixed steady to re-machine the center which has been damaged at some stage.
Under cut the segments a 1/32". 37 segments, 36 would have been so much easier.
Grind the unworn area down the match the worn area.(needs about 1mm off dia) Or turning it if I cant fit the grinder in. There are a few comments around that turning can loosen segments(though plenty of people are turning them)

Sound like a plan?

As for the brushes there is a 2.5mm spacer on the commutator end of the shaft. Can I move that to the drive end so stop the brushes hanging over the end on the commutator or is the commutator gong to try and center itself, wearing the washer out in no time?

Stuart

[.RC.]

Turning the commutator leading to loosening segments sounds like an old internet tale to me..

[snapatap]

I skimmed the comm on the Lucas starter I'm my dozer and didn't have a problem. Also done a few bigger ones for trucks and diggers at work and never had a problem.

[RayG]

Hi Stuart,

Turning commutators on the lathe is standard practice, if you get down to the insulation ( mica?) you need to undercut the mica so that it is below the commutator bars. You can do the undercut with a slitting saw, if you have one of the right width. I looked up Rosenberg, and he recommends 1/32" undercut, and square sides.... that is no mica at all near the top of the bars.

The rotor will try to center itself magnetically to the stator.. you could power it up with lots of end float and see where it likes to run.


Ray

[Stustoys]

Thanks guys, I thought the grinding might have been a little over the top.

It's already down to the mica in many places. I don't have a slitting saw small enough, it needs to be less than 14mm Dia. I'm thinking single tooth form tool on the mill. Be easier to make the tool for the shaper but I doubt it will fit.

Stuart

[johntopp]

Thanks guys, I thought the grinding might have been a little over the top.

It's already down to the mica in many places. I don't have a slitting saw small enough, it needs to be less than 14mm Dia. I'm thinking single tooth form tool on the mill. Be easier to make the tool for the shaper but I doubt it will fit.

Stuart

Undercutting can be done with a piece of hacksaw blade, grind off the "set" on the teeth though (sort of like a safe edge on a file)

Also don't use emery to polish the commutator, use sandpaper. it's non-conductive

[Karl Robbers]

Undercutting can be done with a piece of hacksaw blade, grind off the "set" on the teeth though (sort of like a safe edge on a file)

Also don't use emery to polish the commutator, use sandpaper. it's non-conductive
Exactly right, I've used the ground off hacksaw on several occasions.
Something is definitely wrong with the alignment of the armature and the way the brushes are hanging over the end of the commutator.
Is the Lucas M45 the one with the internal solenoid? If so, they are exceptionally touchy to rebuild and set up correctly.
I think I may have an exploded diagram and repair and setup instructions if you should need it.
You mention these motors are running for long periods at low load. What are they running?

[BaronJ]

Hi Stuart,

I've turned down a few commutators, mostly for domestic product motors. One of the issues with undercutting the mica, is that it is very easy to slip and scratch the copper bars. A dodge that I use is to turn a collar that is a good fit over the commutator and then slit it lengthwise, using a hose clamp to secure it. I use a hacksaw blade ground to suit the width of the mica, but put a hook in it and in use pull it towards you away from the windings. I put a wood handle on mine.

338360338361

It took a while to find the tool, not used it for a few years. Seems that I've broken the tip off at some time. I can't find any of the wooden collars that I made, they have probably got lost or broken over the years. My favorite trick was knocking them on the floor, forgetting and then treading on them.

[Stustoys]

Hi

Also don't use emery to polish the commutator, use sandpaper. it's non-conductive

That was part of my thoughts about grinding, I wouldn't need to polish. But I'll keep that in mind.


Something is definitely wrong with the alignment of the armature and the way the brushes are hanging over the end of the commutator.
I have some ideas what might be wrong but until I get the new parts I wont know(might not know even then). The machine has been like this for over 15 years(at a WIG averaging 2 hours a month)


Is the Lucas M45 the one with the internal solenoid?
Now thats in interesting question in itself(well for me anyway lol)
No they dont have the built solenoid.
They have M45G bodies, but the brushes are listed for M45.
The brush spring are "about the right size" for an M45/45G but only half the width.(that maybe one reason for the tapered wear)

I think I may have an exploded diagram and repair and setup instructions if you should need it.
It sure couldn't hurt if you have it handy.


You mention these motors are running for long periods at low load. What are they running?
Its a lure coursing.(dogs chasing a plastic bag tied to fishing line)


It took a while to find the tool, not used it for a few years. Seems that I've broken the tip off at some time. I can't find any of the wooden collars that I made, they have probably got lost or broken over the years. My favorite trick was knocking them on the floor, forgetting and then treading on them.
I'd heard about the hacksaw idea but the collar would help. I'm more worried about depth control because as an estimator I suck. Besides I can say to SWMBO "see I do need all that crap in the garage" :rolleyes:. So best we keep the hacksaw idea to ourselves.

Thanks all

Stuart

[matthew_g]

Hey there Stuart,
Mr Pete on YouTube has a video or two on turning comms etc;
Well worth a watch if your unsure..:2tsup:

All the best with it..

Matt

[BaronJ]

Hi Stuart,

338360338361

It took a while to find the tool, not used it for a few years. Seems that I've broken the tip off at some time. I can't find any of the wooden collars that I made, they have probably got lost or broken over the years. My favorite trick was knocking them on the floor, forgetting and then treading on them.

:B:B:B From the pictures you can see that the tool looks quite worn and abused :B:B:B
I've just discovered that my good wife has been using it to clear the weeds that grow in between the blocks on our drive ! Hence the rather worn end bit. Grrrr.

I knew that I couldn't remember breaking the tip off. Anyway that is a new use for an old tool.

[Karl Robbers]

Here is the literature I have for your starter motor.
The starter motors I mentioned earlier as having internal solenoids are more correctly termed coaxial solenoid motors and are touchy little dears to rebuild.
Hope this helps.

[Ropetangler]

Hey there Stuart,
Mr Pete on YouTube has a video or two on turning comms etc;
Well worth a watch if your unsure..:2tsup:

All the best with it..

Matt
https://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_3465877067&feature=iv&src_vid=WUcyHenjkew&v=_qZvUD48cZY
G'Day Stuart, Matt and all,
I'm not sure if this is the YT vid you were referring to Matt, but it is worth a look anyway, if you want a fine finish on copper. The worst bit is, that you can't machine right up to a shoulder, although by manipulating tool angles and height, you could get close enough I would think.He is experimenting with vertical shear tools, and at about the 3minute 40 sec mark he shows the machining of copper. This is the second part of this topic, and you will have to go back to the first part to get the grind angles for the tool he is using.
If you roughed the commutator down and then undercut the mica insulation with a ground hacksaw blade, you could take the last couple of thou off with a vertical shear tool for a nice clean final finish, (or not):D. I hope that it works out well in the end,
Rob

[BaronJ]

Depending on how bad the wear is, I usually cleaned and cut the mica first. It also makes it easier to align the slot in the collar with the mica. It doesn't take much, just a couple or three strokes to take half millimeter off. The other thing that I used to do was to "Com Stone" the armature under power. The com stone was simply a stick of abrasive bonded material about 5/8" cross section and around 5" inches long. It helped the brushes to bed in and polished the com.

[jatt]

Should have paid more attention to the elec fitters when I used to work with em. not unusual to see the boys fixing a motor by putting bits in the lathe.

Lucas........brings back bad memories.

My actions on finding a defective Lucas in a car was to replace with Bosch.

Interesting to watch the fix.

[Karl Robbers]

Lucas........brings back bad memories.
My actions on finding a defective Lucas in a car was to replace with Bosch.

All true I swear.
The Lucas motto: "Get home before dark."
Lucas denies having invented darkness. But they still claim "sudden, unexpected darkness"
Lucas--inventor of the first intermittent wiper.
Lucas--inventor of the self-dimming headlamp.
The three-position Lucas switch--DIM, FLICKER and OFF.
The other three switch settings--SMOKE, SMOLDER and IGNITE.
Lucas dip-switch positions: LOW and BLOW
The original anti-theft devices--Lucas Electric products.
"I've had a Lucas pacemaker for years and have never experienced any prob...
If Lucas made guns, wars would not start either.
Did you hear about the Lucas powered torpedo? It sank.
It's not true that Lucas, in 1947, tried to get Parliament to repeal Ohm's Law. They withdrew their efforts when they met too much resistance.
Did you hear the one about the guy that peeked into a Land Rover and asked the owner "How can you tell one switch from another at night, since they all look the same?" "He replied, it doesn't matter which one you use, nothing happens!"
Back in the '70s Lucas decided to diversify its product line and began manufacturing vacuum cleaners. It was the only product they offered which didn't suck.
Quality Assurance phoned and advised the Lucas engineering guy that they had trouble with his design shorting out. So he made the wires longer.
Why do the English drink warm beer? Lucas made the refrigerators, too.
Alexander Graham Bell invented the Telephone. Thomas Edison invented the Light Bulb. Joseph Lucas invented the Short Circuit.
Recommended procedure before taking on a repair of Lucas equipment: check the position of the stars, kill a chicken and walk three times sunwise around your car chanting: "Oh mighty Prince of Darkness protect your unworthy servant."
Lucas systems actually uses AC current; it just has a random frequency.
How to make AIDS disappear? Give it a Lucas parts number.
Recently, Lucas won out over Bosch to supply the electrical for the new Volkswagens. So, now the cars from the Black Forest will come with electrics supplied by the Lord of Darkness -- how appropriate!
Lucas is an acronym for Loose Unsoldered Connections and Splices.

[Oldneweng]

Ha Ha Ha. My brother had an early british built Cortina. I cannot deny any of these claims about Lucas electrics. :no: Around that time as I was getting into cars myself I developed a definite dislike for Lucas. An auto electrician told me to avoid them at all costs, as he threw my alternator in the bin and proceded to install a Bosch one.

Dean

[Karl Robbers]

Ha Ha Ha. My brother had an early british built Cortina. I cannot deny any of these claims about Lucas electrics. :no: Around that time as I was getting into cars myself I developed a definite dislike for Lucas. An auto electrician told me to avoid them at all costs, as he threw my alternator in the bin and proceded to install a Bosch one.

Dean
There's that dirty word - Cortina. I wish I could get my hands on the person that designed the electrical system - every fuse 8 amps and they just grouped functions together until they reached 8 Amps per circuit.

[Stustoys]

I have a vertical sheer tool somewhere but the finish off HSS is pretty damn good.

I had some nasty words to say about Lucas today myself. After getting the center within 1/2 a tho, I ground up a tool planning to use the lathe as a slotter. As I only have the one to do ATM I figured I would just line the slots up with one of my scopes. It was all working well until I actually started cutting. Seems the slots aren't parallel to the centerline of the rotor. After having a hissy fit, stamping my feet and coming inside for the night, I've had the thought that maybe its not a parallel problem, maybe its self feeding into the cut, so tomorrow I'm give it another go.

Failing that, its out with the hacksaw :p

Stuart

[BaronJ]

I have a vertical sheer tool somewhere but the finish off HSS is pretty damn good.

I had some nasty words to say about Lucas today myself. After getting the center within 1/2 a tho, I ground up a tool planning to use the lathe as a slotter. As I only have the one to do ATM I figured I would just line the slots up with one of my scopes. It was all working well until I actually started cutting. Seems the slots aren't parallel to the centerline of the rotor. After having a hissy fit, stamping my feet and coming inside for the night, I've had the thought that maybe its not a parallel problem, maybe its self feeding into the cut, so tomorrow I'm give it another go.

Failing that, its out with the hacksaw :p

Stuart

Hi Stuart,
You should be cutting away from the windings ! That second picture looks like the cutter has pulled down. Possibly the cutting edge isn't quite square.

[Stustoys]

You should be cutting away from the windings !
Why? I dont really see much difference.
But as it happens I have turned it around.


That second picture looks like the cutter has pulled down.
Sadly no. Well it was a little, but mostly its alignment, as is always the way I picked the worse one of the 37 to test on, most os the rest are much better, some are even spot on. I realised last night I'm not dealing with something made from a copper ring and accurately machined. It's just a bunch of copper wires held pretty much in place and glued there. I'm glad I didnt go to the trouble of setting up the rotary table.

Its pretty much done now........ and now a break while I wait for the brushes and bushes to arrive.

Stuart

[BaronJ]

Why? I dont really see much difference.
But as it happens I have turned it around.


Cutting away from the windings is so that you don't catch them with the tool that you use. Also the hand tools are quite flexible and if you broke one by pushing there would be the risk of injury. Recall that most of my armature repair work was on motors used in domestic appliances. So quite small, one or one and a half horse power would probably the biggest I would see. From your pictures that armature looks to be quite beefy and has a very large shoulder. Anyway it looks like you have done a fine job on that one.



Sadly no. Well it was a little, but mostly its alignment, as is always the way I picked the worse one of the 37 to test on, most of the rest are much better, some are even spot on. I realised last night I'm not dealing with something made from a copper ring and accurately machined. It's just a bunch of copper wires held pretty much in place and glued there. I'm glad I didnt go to the trouble of setting up the rotary table.

Its pretty much done now........ and now a break while I wait for the brushes and bushes to arrive.

Stuart

I do recall a motor that had the commutator bars laid at an angle of about 20 degrees or so. It also had two pairs of brushes. I've no idea why it was like that or what it came from. I never actually worked on it, so I never saw it running. But it was much bigger than a 3 HP induction motor.

[Chas]

Ha Ha Ha. My brother had an early british built Cortina. I cannot deny any of these claims about Lucas electrics. :no: Around that time as I was getting into cars myself I developed a definite dislike for Lucas. An auto electrician told me to avoid them at all costs, as he threw my alternator in the bin and proceded to install a Bosch one.

Dean

Not all Lucas stuff was bad. I remember the 1979-83 Toyota Corona XT130 which was fitted with the GM "Starfire 4" 1.9 litre engine, known in the trade as the "Misfire 4". In the Toyota, the starter was a very unreliable Bosch unit which had a habit of burning out the armature windings with great regularity. The only permanent fix was to obtain the equivalent Lucas starter as fitted to the same engine from a VC Holden Commodore or Holden Sunbird; problems solved. They became very hard to get and expensive because of this.

Chas.

[Stustoys]

Bargain for $20 I think.
Not even sure the bushes need replacing, but since I have them and its apart anyway I'll do them.
I assume these are an oil filled bush?(see I know as much about bushes as I do about bearings)

Stuart

[BaronJ]

Bargain for $20 I think.
Not even sure the bushes need replacing, but since I have them and its apart anyway I'll do them.
I assume these are an oil filled bush?(see I know as much about bushes as I do about bearings)

Stuart

Hi Stuart,
I would check to make sure that they don't come dry ! If they do they will need boiling in oil and left to cool or soak them overnight. The last bronze bushes that I bought had to be lubricated before use.

[nadroj]

Not all Lucas stuff was bad.


Yeah, Lucas isn't always the villain it's portrayed to be. Gotta say though, the jokes are hilarious (yawn).
I sometimes hear owners of Italian vehicles tease Lucas owners. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

Jordan

[Stustoys]

I would check to make sure that they don't come dry

Check how? with the seller you mean?

Well I knocked up an bush puller/inserter today. I think needless accuracy may bite me in the ass when I insert the new bush it just might grab hold of my puller :rolleyes:.

Now off for a week on a beach somewhere :D

Stuart

only took me 9 days to notice I left the "er" off starter lol

[Combustor]

Most of these bushes arrive dry. Will only be an oiled one if it comes in a sealed plastic wrap that looks visibly oily. The auto recon shops keep a selection of the common ones sitting in a tray of oil and just pull them out and wipe them prior to fitting.
Usual means of extracting from a blind hole is to thread a suitable coarse tap into the bush till it bottoms out and jacks the bush out of the hole. Can also use the tap to remove open ended bushes, just thread it in for a good grip then drive the tap through to shift the bush.
Combustor.

[BaronJ]

Hi Stuart,

Combustor, got there first. :) Yes these bushes usually come dry. However you can test for yourself by heating the bush gently and seeing if oil weeps out, though I must admit I tend to do the same as Combustor said and dump them in a tin can and cover then with suitable oil. Or as I suggested boil them in oil for a while and let them cool before using.

Combustor, I like your suggestion of using a suitable tap to extract the old bush. :U:U:U It's so obvious that I would never have thought about doing that in a million years. So thanks for the tip. Another one to store away in the old grey matter. :D

[Stustoys]

suitable oil.
I have a choice of two :p
Loma 32 (hydraulic oil used in my lathe headstock)
DTE Heavy (used in the jig grinder gearboxes)
For this use does it really matter?

Stuart

[matthew_g]

It took me a while to find it, but this is the video I was refering to.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHjGc_qjNcE

[Stustoys]

Thanks Matthew, Never come across armature chucks before.

Just to prove I over think my projects as well. I put the bushes in oil, microwaved* it to heat it up a little then ran it though a few cycles in my vacuum chamber. :rolleyes: Seems to have worked lol

Stuart

*in hindsight I'm not sure that was such a good idea. Still it heated up so I guess it worked.

[BaronJ]

Hi Stuart,

Sorry I completly missed this post. :doh:


I have a choice of two :p
Loma 32 (hydraulic oil used in my lathe headstock)
DTE Heavy (used in the jig grinder gearboxes)
For this use does it really matter?

Stuart

I generally use whatever I have to hand, 20 - 50 motor oil, the cheap type without any additives, usually.

[Stustoys]

Well I used the 32, fingers crossed.
Made a puller for the large end.
Pulled the bushes and replaced(I was right the, small bush did grip the needlessly accurate puller, but lots of little taps got it out without moving the bush).
Put it back together. Pretty happy, is running better than it used to(it was always slower than the other motor but seems about the same now)
I'll just have to keep an eye on the brushes as they dont seem to have 100% contact. Maybe they just need some running in?

Thanks guys

Stuart

[RayG]

Hi Stuart,

Always good to see a project finished.. did you run it with lots of end float to find the magnetic center?

Ray

[Stustoys]

Hi Ray,
Yes and no :wink:. I put it back together as it was and tested it. It starts and stops with the brushes off the end of the commutator, when running it pulls the commutator back. I should have made a spacer......it seems I forget..:doh:........ I'll get onto it.

Stuart

[RayG]

Sorry, didn't mean to make extra work for you... :)